A tangible example of why a boycott against BP won't work

[nadinbrzezinski]

I know some of you won't believe me, but every time I drive by Qualcum Stadium here in San Diego I get a perfect example of the fungible nature of oil. You see ALL gas for this city and local region comes to a single storage facility. This storage facility has no corporate logos, lest we attract anybody's attention. And every day the trucks for insert gas company here, form a line. Every day they are filled, and if a particular brand uses an additive, they will add it to the load. Otherwise... it does not matter if I buy my gas at the ESSO Gas Station, the PX or the AM\PM or the left handed widget. It is coming from the exact same facility.

Now you want to make a difference? I mean if you think a boycott will work, and it will make you feel better by all means... but if you REALLY want to make a difference. There are OTHER things you can do.

1.- Drive efficient vehicles and make sure you keep up their upkeep
2.- Combine all kinds of trips into one.
3.- Bike\walk for short trips
4.- Find clothing made from 100 % natural fibers... realize though that you still will be using oil. (The transportation system)

In other words... it will take REAL changes in your lifestyle. But seriously if it makes you feel better, the more power to you. But that San Diego Distribution model... is pretty much a textbook example of the fungible nature of oil and gas.

Nadin

[BeFree]

1. Ignored

[nadinbrzezinski]

2. Good, we go LA, LA, LA instead of facts

I can't hear you...

[ret5hd]

3. So, what you are saying is that BP makes no money off their actual stations.

That essentially the BP stations are just put there as a favor to us?

[nadinbrzezinski]

6. No, they make some money, but not enough for your boycott to even be

noticeable in their bottom line.

What they make from retail operations is far from the core of their business, or for that matter the business model for the industry. That is what I am saying.

The fuel extracted by PEMEX, for example, ends up in the world market, and after three or four or even five changes in ownership, it might end up at a retail station run by BP or ESSO, or what have you. Now if this is a mom and pop station, you might hurt that mom and pop station, They are not as common as they used to be, but they still exist.

Hell, that oil extracted by PEMEX and later sold at a Mexican OIL STATION, given that we process some of their oil, might be British Petroleum in the extraction origin. No Mexico does not have the capacity to process all their oil, for internal needs.

This is not coldstone creamery. You want to have an effect... REDUCE YOUR ENERGY CONSUMPTION PERIOD.

Oh and for the record, I don't own stock in any of these companies. If I did... that is something they will pay attention to. Me and a few more investors, selling. Oh wait that happened... their stock fell and they did pay attention, lickety split.

But at one point I developed a side interest on how this is done, and the nature of the business. Hell when they tell me that insert oil company here gas is better for my car... I just laugh... and just buy the cheapest I can find, usually at the PX, which has trucks delivering their gas from insert company here.

I also drive a hybrid, and we are going to replace our 18 year old truck, which is driven little, for ANOTHER hybrid... I ride my bike where I can, and I combine my trips. I walk the walk and I know that this is the ONLY way to actually change this. And it is not just because I hate BP... it is good practice, if we are to survive as a species.

[Statistical]

13. BP (and all oil companies) make very little off retail stations.

Retail markup is about only 10% of the price of gasoline and 90% of that goes to the station owner (individual owner/operators).

So the final brand is pretty meaningless. 90% of profit in a gallon of gasoline has already been "accounted for" before you make a decisions on which brand to use.


So why do oil companies have retail gas stations?

Simple they are a very cheap hedge against oil volatility. By manipulating retail prices vs crude prices they can even out cashflow for the qtr. Since Wall street wants to see profit numbers hit every qtr and punishes stocks that miss even once or twice the retail gas stations provide a cost effective way for oil companies to hedge profits and smooth out the volatility in oil prices. Ever taken a look at oil spot prices. Oil companies without retail network are at the mercy of the spot price. They are still profitable but their earnings are "choppy" Make more than expected profit one qtr, miss the next, beat the next, way miss the next. Wallstreet tends to punish companies like that.

It isn't that BP makes $0.00 on retail gas it is that it is a rounding error.

If you really want to hurt gas companies..... US LESS GAS.

Real simple concept, but really hurt to execute.

[TexasObserver]

4. Then you and others who are so adamant on that point can stop worrying about it.

The fact is a boycott would hurt BP, and BP fears it, even if its online keyboard defenders don't.

Just because it's not practical to boycott all aspects of BP's business doesn't mean a consumer boycott would not hurt BP. It would. A boycott is punishment applied by consumers to big companies who behave irresponsibly.

[nadinbrzezinski]

8. BP is laughing at you

it will not hurt them... you understand that you not spending 100 bucks at their stations will not even show in the bottom line? You get it that even if 10% of US Consumers did such will not hurt them? Perhaps if you got 100% then they'd start paying attention. Good luck with that.

What will hurt them is for you and me to change our collective life styles. Incidentally it will also hurt ESSO, SHELL, and the rest of them. And reducing our collective use of energy will be good for the planet.

[TexasObserver]

10. No, but they're chortling at your naive defense of them.

If you want to believe a boycott doesn't hurt them, knock yourself out. It won't be the first or last time today you're wrong about something.

[nadinbrzezinski]

14. What defense? I know that by REDUCING as much as I can my

energy consumption, and when this becomes a NATIONAL policy, that actually hurts them. A boycott on a multinational company that makes billions... good luck with that, having oh worst case 400 of your dollars showing in the bottom line.

You want to affect them YOU CAN... REDUCE YOUR ENERGY CONSUMPTION. Of course that involves real sacrifice, and it is not a feel good thing.

[TexasObserver]

15. Boycott efforts target the company which has acted poorly.

Boycott efforts combat the never ending propaganda advertising by such corporate villains as BP.

Boycott efforts move business away from the less responsible corporations to businesses more responsible.

A boycott against BP hurts BP. It hurts them in their propaganda campaign, which they trot out every time they accidently kill a few people.

[Statistical]

16. Which "good oil company" would you chose?

:rofl:

Like picking the most "responsible" drug cartel?
If you want to hurt a dealer you use less of their product. In this instance American is addicted to oil.
Simple concept but it requires sacrifice.

[TexasObserver]

20. You bought 500 shares of BP Friday. Of course you oppose a boycott.

[Statistical]

22. Challenge the argument (if you can)

Which oil company is the "good one"? :rofl:

Do what you want but don't lie to yourself (and others) and say you are "part of the solution".

Buying crack from one dealer doesn't make you a better addict that someone buying some from another dealer.

BTW: it is 500 shares now and nicely profitable with the option collar however that doesn't change the futility of using more and more oil from the "good oil company".

[TexasObserver]

26. Your argument is unsound. It's an analogy that isn't analogous.

[Statistical]

29. Which oil company is the "good one"?

And oil is Americas crack. We could run this country on half the energy we do now but we are utterly addicted on cheap cheap power.
The dealers give us exactly what we (collectively) want.

The solution is to cut the addiction not find a more "responsible" crack dealer.

So once again (5th time): Which oil company is the "good one"?

[TexasObserver]

35. Your question includes a faulty premise.

A person who engages in a consumer boycott can use any number of outlets to satisfy their purchase needs. The person who stops at the BP station to get sodas, or chips, or candy, or other food can go to the convenience store on the next block. The person who buys from a brand name station can choose to support an independent.

Demand for petroleum products drives the energy industry, but within that very diverse industry, BP is but one more competitor.

[Statistical]

36. So that is a long winded way of saying no oil company is responsible.

Kinda like no drug gang is "responsible".

Your just shifting a tiny amount of profits (cents on the dollar) from one irresponsible party to another irresponsible party and then patting yourself on the back pretending you actually did something.

[nadinbrzezinski]

17. Good luck with that

I mean it.

If it feels better, go for it. But if you manage to affect a company's bottom line that is larger in a quarter than nation states, good luck

You want to do some changes? REAL CHANGES

Start pressuring for energy policy that moves us AWAY from an oil civilization.

Start pressuring for REGULATORY policy.

Hell the Sherman Anti Trust would really scare them... Have them dust it off and chiefly use it.

But four hundred dollars a month... tell me, how did that boycott affect Exxon? You mean they opened MORE gas stations after the Exxon Valdez?

[uppityperson]

21. But REAL CHANGES are more difficult than simply switching where I buy gas

Simply switching stations is so easy, how could it not affect them? :sarcasm: Thank you for your posts with ideas of how to affect the parent company.

[nadinbrzezinski]

23. Oh you welcome...

I admit, some of the changes are not easy...

But hey we also use cloth bags to take to market, and I reuse them plastic bags until they fall apart and then have them recycled...

Hell I got some for my mom, and I started carrying those before it was "chic"

Hell, my older brother (who is in love with right wing nuttery at times) thinks I hug trees

:hi:

[TexasObserver]

24. A person boycotting is free to alter their lifestyle, too.

You act as if the two concepts are mutually exclusive. However, even if a person does not alter their consumption of petroleum products, the fact remains it is preferable to purchase such products at consumer outlets not flying the BP banner.

Your position that the boycott will not negatively impact BP is simply not true.

[Statistical]

25. So helping Exxon profits someone tells oil companies they need to be responsible

First of all the boycott does nothing because their is no significant profit in retail operations for the integrated oil companies.

Second even if a boycott worked you would force the owners of stations (not BP) to lower retail price (thus their profits) and the same amount of wholesale gasoline will be bought.

Lastly even if you could shift profit from BP to another oil company who gives a flying crap.
Shifting profit from current polluter to past polluter is a win? Really?

Before BP it was Exxon Valdez. Prior to Exxon Valdez Hess had the dubious honor of the #1 spill in America.

So once again who is the "good responsible oil company"?
While your at it let me know which drug gang is the "good responsible crack dealer"?

:rofl:

[nadinbrzezinski]

27. IF you change your lifestyle you are affecting more than just BP

but I will contend that given the percentabe to their operations that these retail outlets are... about 5% of all profits for the WORLD... your effect will be negligible. More like a statistical error.

You want changes?

Real things that will get their attention, though require real changes.

1.- Drive an efficient car, keep it maintained... and combine all kinds of stuff into a single trip

2.p USE Cloth bags, and avoid plastic as much as possible. When not possible, use, reuse and recycle.

3.- PRESSURE policy makers for the changes necessary to move AWAY from an oil civilization.

4.- If you happen to own stock IN ANY oil concern, SELL.

5.- Sherman Anti Trust, if applied and breaks down the energy conglomerates, to less than oh transnational level... AT THAT POINT your targeted boycott would work. It is just the size of the company you are dealing with.

There are many other things you can do... but they all come to one thing, REDUCE your consumption, don't matter where in the slush fund it comes from.

That is the only thing that will have an effect. And it is good environmental policy to boot.

But if it makes you feel better, and empowered that you are doing something about it, by all means, boycott BP...

[walldude]

5. Change my lifestyle? Are you crazy?

That would require... sacrifice! Nooooooooo!






Judging from the replies so far I think we're fucked.

[nadinbrzezinski]

7. Agreed... it is the make me feel good

not do actual changes that will actually, in the aggregate, have an real effect.

[Bluenorthwest]

9. So your house has 2 cars. How many petrol miles a week?

It is just amusing that you are so hyped up that people might integrate avoiding BP into the over all reduction of consumption that we are already engaged in. You seem to be saying, use less oil, but make sure to equally give custom to BP, no matter. If buying less fuel, why not also buy it from better providers? People understand the nature of oil sales. They also understand that the retail outlets exist for profit and for the benefits of public branding. They also know that we always have a choice, and simply not buying your gas and gum at BP does send a message. Are you under the impression that they do not track their retail sales, market those products, and attempt to gain more each quarter from them? They do.
You seem to assume that the nature of a boycott is one sided, and only effective if it has the ability to close the business. First, any dime taken from those who grub for pennies hits them where they live. Second, the simple act of not buying from those you do not respect is good for the soul, and worth doing for that alone. You see, I buy for me. I'd not have a pleasant buying experience at BP. Not that we have them here. But I've been before, and will not, for the duration of my life. Just for me, for no reason but what I like. Why the fuck should anyone feel compelled to give them custom? Why not just avoid it? There are stores I don't go to because I don't like their color scheme, so the Gulf situation seems to meet that standard, the buy where it feels good to buy standard.
You need to make an argument as to why people should go to BP. Because not going there does not require anything but customer whim.
But of course, if it was a real boycott, here is how that works. You do not use the target, nor anyone who does custom with them. This means if they sell Coke, we don't buy Coke anywhere, and so on. This is how they really work, it is a huge commitment, and it is an organized thing. It works like mad. No one is suggesting that with BP. People are just saying 'why not go elsewhere'?
And indeed, why not?

[nadinbrzezinski]

11. Good luck with that

are you living in a place that is fully and truly self sufficient?


And I mean food, water, air and energy?

And you can go anywhere else, if it makes you feel better. But the only way that we can affect the business, given the business model is... EFFICIENCIES of scale and REDUCING your energy consumption.

You will not just hurt BP, but the INDUSTRY.

Realize today it is BP, 20 years or so ago it was PEMEX... 40 years ago it was Exxon... and of course the Exxon Valdez.

You want to make a real difference? REDUCE your energy consumption... good luck with a boycott of a company who's income is larger than just a few nation states... for BP it is a quarter, for these nation states a year.

This is not your great grand parent's oil company where a directed boycott would work... they are just too large for that.

[Bluenorthwest]

28. Good luck with what? Did you read my words at all?

I just won't go to BP retail outlets. Read what I wrote. Answer the questions asked, address the points made. How many petrol miles does your household drive in a month? I ask because you are lecturing me to do what I already do, far more so than you do. I made big changes indeed. I can also not go to BP outlets.
You are speaking to someone who could show you how to make the changes your are harping about. I'm also saying there is no reason to shop where you don't want to shop. No one is arguing against conservation, least of all me. But it seems your point is that people should shop at BP even if they don't want to. I'd say that is silly. I'd also suggest that for many people who have not learned to conserve much, any way to start is a way to start. If they avoid BP, they will then be planning their fuel purchases, perhaps becoming more aware of those purchases. They become more aware consumers, and that is part of what we need. So who cares if BP will still be rich, everybody knows that. There are things to be gained by those who make the choice not to buy from them, that exist aside from BP's bottom line.
Now. Tell me what is gained by giving BP your business. I've shared what I think is gained by not going there. So what is the reason to go to BP?

[Statistical]

31. So where will you buy gasoline? n/t

[nadinbrzezinski]

32. If it makes you feel better don't shop at their retail outlets

mind you, the gas you by at the ESSO station, chances are was touched at the extraction level by PB, and given it went to a single distro point for your area...

But if it feels better, go for it.

By all means. We all know that Exxon closed a lot of gas stations after the Valdez incident and are very responsible... (chortle)

By the way, you and a few thousand more not going into a BP station is a statistical anomaly.

REDUCE that is how you affect ALL OF THEM, not just BP.


And the only way to be independent of this, is to be fully out of the system. After all OIL is all over the place. 95% of all the stuff in your house has oil in it... and the other 5% was brought in using fossil fuel burning transportation systems... that is what needs to change, by the way. And that is the core of the business for these companies, not the retail operations.

[Common Sense Party]

12. Double word score: you used "tangible" and "fungible" in the same post!

50 points!

[KharmaTrain]

18. The World Oil Market Is A Literal Slush Fund...

BP buys and sells. As you state, most oil people put in their tanks or heat their home come from a common distribution point. In our area there are separate refineries for the major companies, but the oil comes down a single pipeline. The oil BP extracts is not the same they sell...they're on both sides of the transactions. Thus, you are right...boycotting BP will have little affect on their bottom line in where the oil they extract is sold...it goes into the "world market"...a literal slush fund where big money is made, where prices are speculated and creates a choke point that is pinched to serve the profits of the large corporates. It's also a handy way for oil from embargoed countries like Iran to sell on the market without the oil companies violating the supposed boycott of their petroleum.

Personally, I've avoided BP stations going back to when they were owned by Amoco...both too cozy with the Saudis for my comfort. I also found their "Green" logo to be a disengenuous ploy to make dirty oil look clean and environmentally friendly. Meanwhile they fight any real move to bring a different alternative technology to market.

Boycotts have little impact on a multi-national "too big to fail"...but it sure sounds good.

Cheers...

[nadinbrzezinski]

19. I guess I have been part of this boycott before it was chic

There are no retail operations in town.

Though I have seen a few BP trucks at the PX

:-)

[Bluenorthwest]

33. Here's for fun, where I get to fuel up.

It is fun, and a tad 'better' which is why I go. I'm lucky to have such a place. www.sqbiofuels.com/

[mdmc]

30. I would bet that BP would prefer for us to buy gas from them

and BP would prefer that we not buy gas from other providers.

If everyone stopped buying gas from BP, they would lower their price until people could not avoid buying gas from BP..

[nadinbrzezinski]

34. They don't care, they make so much money a quarter

that retail operations are nothing...

As is they know that YOU are buying their product... chances are in the chain they touched it... they are at both ends

You want to stop them. REDUCE YOUR CONSUMPTION. It will affect ALL of them. But hey, if it makes you feel better, go for it.

[TexasObserver]

37. Yes, BP cares. That's why they spend millions on advertising.

Here's a good source that is recent. It will provide information in a short article that you might find helpful.

http://thinkprogress.org/2010/04/30/bp-greenwashing-drill/

It goes without saying that sales are important to BP, and they spend millions monthly promoting their brand.

[nadinbrzezinski]

38. Of course they promote their brand

it is called consumerism and corporate ID, but they spend far more in the backrooms keeping real changes that will affect their bottom line from happening.

[Uzybone]

39. KnR

much easier to scream boycott and keep using the same gas than actually make sacrifice, change lifestyle and use less gas.

But it makes them feel better I guess.

[nadinbrzezinski]

40. Yep, as another DU'er put it, the American Idol way of dealing with

issues.

[LanternWaste]

41. BP can laugh...

BP can laugh-- the laughter may even be part and parcel of their business plan for all many of us care.

Regardless of whether one may or may not engage in your own suggestions, in this particular context I see an absolute good coming from personal declarations of intent and statements of belief and then acting upon them (i.e, a boycott). As for me, I do not see the above as a waste of my time... even should someone else think so.

[nadinbrzezinski]

42. What I suggested attacks the industry at a core level

not just BP.

And it is cognizant of how the industry actually works.

If a boycott makes you feel better, go for it. Just realize the only thing they will notice is a whole sale reduction in consumption of the goods they sell... a boycott... they are laughing

Though I expect an add campaign to restore the brand, but that is a whole different discussion and kettle of fish.

[me b zola]

43. Everyone is entitled to their opinion

But for the life of me I can't understand trying to discourage others from giving their money to companies that act in bad faith.

[nadinbrzezinski]

44. I am encouraing you NOT to give your money to ALL OF THEM

in the only way they'll get it.

By the way, you understand why a Transnational company that earns billions\quarter is laughing, all the way to the bank mind you, about your 1,000 a quarter? You understand that you will switch your coke habit from one dealer to the other? You also understand that the way the industry works you may not buy BP touched gas, but chances are they touched it at one point in the chain, at least once?

These are facts... we are addicted to oil and ONLY way to reduce their profits and force movement away from oil is to HIT ALL OF THEM by reducing your consumption. I'd love to reduce our dependence to zero... alas facts are hard and even if I'd like to... currently that is not realistic.