University of Phoenix now the largest college in the US with half a million students

[apples and oranges]

The biggest player in the for-profit sector is the University of Phoenix—now the largest college in the US with total enrollment approaching half a million students. Its revenues of almost $4 billion last year, up 25 percent from 2008, have made it a darling of Wall Street. Former top executive of the University of Phoenix Mark DeFusco told FRONTLINE how the company’s business-approach to higher education has paid off: “If you think about any business in America, what business would give up two months of business—just essentially close down?” he asks. “{At the University of Phoenix}, people go to school all year round. We start classes every five weeks. We built campuses by a freeway because we figured that’s where the people were.”

“The education system that was created hundreds of years ago needs to change,” says Michael Clifford, a major education entrepreneur who speaks with FRONTLINE. Clifford, a former musician who never attended college, purchases struggling traditional colleges and turns them into for-profit companies. “The big opportunity,” he says, “is the inefficiencies of some of the state systems, and the ability to transform schools and academic programs to better meet the needs of the people that need jobs.”

FRONTLINE INVESTIGATES THE RISE OF FOR-PROFIT UNIVERSITIES AND THE TENSIONS BETWEEN THEIR WALL STREET BACKERS AND REGULATORS

FRONTLINE Presents
College, Inc.
Tuesday, May 4, 2010, at 9 P.M. ET on PBS

www.pbs.org/frontline/collegeinc

[and-justice-for-all]

1. All universities in the US are for-profit....

If you want non-profit universities you have to go to Europe i.e. Germany and France

[jody]

2. Understand your intent but "All universities" includes military academies and degree granting

professional schools. Those are not for-profit.

[Xipe Totec]

3. Really?

Tell me how the business model of European universities differs from state universities in the US like UT, UMass, UC?

[and-justice-for-all]

56. So those universities are not for profit??

There are little to no tuition fees in Germany or France and I am sure that is the same with most EU universities.

For Profit universities:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_for-profit_universities_and_colleges

So yeah, really! There are a majority of for profit universities in the US.

[Xipe Totec]

76. Yes, actually, they are not for profit.

So tell me how European univeristies are not for profit, but these state universities are.

Seriously, I'm confused. How are they different from European univeristies.

While you're at it, add UNAM, the National Autonomous Univertisy of Mexico, since it is also not in Europe.

[dems_rightnow]

5. Substantially all are not-for-profit in the U.S.

Or governmental entities.

[RoyGBiv]

22. Oh, they are not ...

Please explain your theory. I guarantee I've heard it before.

[and-justice-for-all]

55. My theory?

US Universities are for profit institutions.

[RoyGBiv]

68. That's not a theory ...

That's an assertion.

And it's wrong.

[elfin]

4. McCollege -- eom

[Gin]

6. the Frontline program is very informative regarding for profit schools

on tonight..sounds like the same scam as the sub prime loan deal...its all about making profits...and the tax payer is picking up the tab for the defaults on student loans which makes up 85% of the profits for these schools

[tammywammy]

7. For-profit universities and "career" schools are a scam

I tend to think career school are worse, getting people to way overpay to learn something basic that's usually also taught at a community college.

[SoxFan]

51. Bingo

I've represented clients who have gotten in over their heads with loans at a local for-profit college. Without fail, they say that the place is a rip-off. The biggest problem is the inability to transfer credits. If a student decides they want to attend UNH, UMass-Lowell, or St. Anselm, they constantly find that their prior work is useless.

And for this they pay tuition that is higher than that charged by the UNH or UMass system.

[girl gone mad]

50. Precisely, and most students would be much better off going to a community college..

instead. It's a massive scam, fueled by our horrendous student loan policies.

[Liberal_in_LA]

69. oops. I just started a separate thread about this. I was SHOCKED by the percentage.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

8. They are fully acredited and in some cases more effective than brick and mortar schools

Especially for working people. I love campus life and all that it represents, but its available to fewer and fewer students these days.

[tkmorris]

10. That's true I suppose, but do you know about the U of Phoenix?

Once upon a time I had reason to research them and to say that I came away unimpressed would be a massive understatement. To me they seemed to fall just a smidgeon short of being an outright con.

[tonysam]

11. The thing of it is, regular colleges and universities provide the same services

to non-traditional students as the University of Phoenix and for less money. Years ago, this wasn't the case with most colleges and universities, but today there are night classes galore and distance learning classes.

Why pay through the nose to a degree mill?

[tkmorris]

12. Agreed

For me, the point at which the system fails is accreditation. How on earth the U of P got accreditation is a mystery to me. They should have been denied it, and then we wouldn't have half a million students getting Pell Grants and student loans in an attempt improve themselves only to find that the place has no interest in educating them, only cashing their checks.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

13. They were shakier in the past than they are today

and at this point are no worse than many of the lower tier brick and mortar schools IMO.

As I said, while I think the campus experience is part of the education one receives, its not going to be available to many these days.

[Hannah Bell]

15. they're still shakier. & more expensive. & even a community college

AA carries more weight than most of them.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

17. Companies, even the Federal Government are paying for and accepting them for employees

As for cost, there seems to be a normalizing of that happening in the distance learning/online industry, which should surprise no one.

Having looked at this academically recently, Univ of MD, University College is no better or worse that U of P and other less well known online schools in the disciplines that I am familiar with/reviewed. Lots of big name schools are also into the weekend wonder or "executive" degree programs including the Claremont Colleges, USC, and other well known schools. Not sure they are any better than U of P, Regency etc.

I agree that U of P still has a mild stigma, but Regency and others do not and are arguably no better. Most of the real world treats and MBA as an MBA, unless its from a premier school. The only real issue seems to be if you want to transition to teaching at the college level. There the executive or weekend wonder approach with a name school is clearly superior to the pure online environment. High schools accept the distance learning/online programs just fine.

[Hannah Bell]

20. real schools have more cred, & not just "to teach at the college level".

"yes, i got my masters in physics online"

[ProgressiveProfessor]

24. You are supporting is educational snobbery and in many cases not facts

Is an "executive MBA" from a big name school the same as the regular MBA? What if its done via distance learning or weekends only? The fact is many name schools are trading on/prostituting their reputations but their degrees still get full "cred".

From what I see, the "cred" is mostly within academia, not in the workplace, with many employers paying for online only degrees. U of P will never escape some level of stigma, but its not impacting the rest of the online/distance industry, especially the "Click & Mortar" schools.

[Hannah Bell]

26. you're promoting misinformation & trying to put up a smokescreen to disguise it.

please stop.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

29. Actually I am debunking the snobbery, and yes I know it annoys some

U of P could disappear tomorrow and none of this will change. Its way too profitable for ALL colleges/universities doing it. Its the only really money maker for any of the schools involved, public/non-profit/for profit, and just about all of them are doing it at some level.

U of P is the big tree in the online education forest, but its certainly not 51%+ of the online education industry. Fixate on them if you want to, but you are clearly not seeing the big picture.

[Hannah Bell]

31. dupe

[Name removed]

32. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

37. I see that too

I have been getting harassed at work about either doing an MBA or law school and my failure to take my professional development seriously for several years (kinda busy doing my job here...) and I have been absolutely astonished by the bullshit diploma mill MBA programs being offered by "real" universities. All the participants might be in on the joke - but in a world of computer screened resumes and the $8.00/hr "HR Generalist" such a bullshit degree could put more qualified candidates out of the running because some buffoon has an "ivy league MBA"

[ProgressiveProfessor]

38. Someone gets it...

There is clearly a middle ground out there somewhere. Professionals need/want the knowledge that comes with advanced degrees but the full time college gig is just not going to work for them. However too many schools have tried to grab the cash cow that online and executive programs are. People who focus just on UofP or the for profits are not looking at the big picture.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

39. That is where I sit,

My objection is passing off adult continuing education seminars as a masters degree, if your a ditzy temp "HR Generalist" are you going to understand what exactly an "Executive MBA" is - or does it just sound impressive?

I do appreciate the way some of the private schools do things, I don't think I would be any worse off having missing a few of my electives, such as an archaeology course that was basically a creepy woman talking about oral sex in the ancient world for an entire semester or wading through a sewage treatment plant with a really, really gung-ho ecology professor. But some of these private schools also get WAY too specific and graduate people without some skills you just pick up along the way in a conventional university. SUCH AS RESEARCH AND WRITING!

[Hannah Bell]

40. this looks like a great place to get an mba...they'll teach you all the ins & outs.

SEC Investigates University of Phoenix Owner, Apollo Group

Apollo Group Inc., the parent company of the University of Phoenix, the largest for-profit college in the country, announced on Tuesday that the Securities and Exchange Commission has launched an “informal inquiry” into the company’s revenue accounting practices.

This new probe, being conducted by the SEC’s enforcement unit, marks the second time this year that the SEC has targeted Apollo’s accounting operations for investigation. In February, the corporate finance division of the SEC also revealed it was reviewing Apollo’s revenue recognition practices.

http://www.nextstudent.com/student-loan-blog/blogs/sample_weblog/archive/2009/10/29/24092.aspx


Run by Peter V. Sperling, one of the 400 richest americans, whose income = 2% of us gdp & whose assets = >11% of us, & who, if they were taxed at 1995 rates, could pay off the entire debt of california with the additional tax. yes, please give that SOB more money.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Sperling


or the guy from credit suisse, give the investment banker more money:

http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/business/articles/2008/07/08/20080708biz-apollo0708.html

or the other guy from credit suisse: Gregory W. Cappelli

or the guy from price waterhouse, or the guy from the restructuring corp, or the corporate lawyer or the chick with all her degrees BA & MBA from the bogus university of phoenix who probably slept with someone to get her job, or the guy who developed "ask jeeves".

all-star line-up, there, a bunch of bankers, a couple of fixers, & some dorks.

[elehhhhna]

72. it gets worse -- they have a a joint venture w/ Carlyle Group

[ProgressiveProfessor]

41. It really started downhill with the executive and weekend wonder degrees

I have known for many years the now retired head of a major government research facility. He got his PhD via the weekend wonder route at a seriously big name school at government expense. Everyone called him doctor but in the Chemistry department, several people took the PhD off their office doors in quiet protest.

Just for grins, check out http://www.onlinedegrees.com/online-colleges.html Its an advertising site and does not have the vast majority of online programs out there. Still its scary. Is a Phd from Capella the same as one from UMUC? HOw many of these schools are for profit (they are hiding that in most cases) Also many of these schools have special military programs. That bothers me more since its milking hard won GI Bill benefits for at times questionable degrees.

We in the higher education biz need to find a better way to support the needs of the working professional without the level of prostitution that is going on today. Then again, maybe this is just my version of educational snobbery

[Liberal_in_LA]

70. Many near the end of the careers choose the weekend route...they want be 'Dr' before

they retire. It's getting that last credential - PHD after their names. No way are they going to do a full time 7 year program with dissertation.

[girl gone mad]

52. Their graduation rates are abysmal..

even when compared only to other for-profit schools.

"According to the U.S. Education Department, only 4 percent of Phoenix's students who entered four-year-programs as freshmen graduated within six years, compared with 55 percent of students at non-profit four-year schools. And an executive-search company specializing in financial services told Business Week that a Phoenix degree didn't "add any value" to a graduate's resume."

[Radical Activist]

16. No. They're much worse than real colleges.

I know several people who teach classes through U of P. They all tell the same story. They're pressured to dumb it down and pass everyone. It's a joke. If I were an employer I would assume a U of P "graduate" knows nothing at all about anything beyond high school.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

18. Yet employers, including State and Federal governments accept and even pay for such programs

There are a great many more than just U of P, which does have a stigma. Somehow that stigma does not extend to Regency or the executive/weekend wonder programs run by many of the well known brick and mortar schools.

[blueamy66]

43. I temped at the UofP years ago...

and let me tell you....they don't give a flying fuck about educating people....it's ALL ABOUT THE MONEY.

You couldn't pay me to attend that shit "school".

[Hannah Bell]

27. The poster thinks the University of Southern California, or any other private college, is

the same as UoP.

which tells you where he's coming from.

All the for-profit colleges = scams. None are "more effective" than anything.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

33. You clearly ignorant of the realities of the online education biz

and your misstating of my position and the facts will do nothing to change that.

Have you ever heard or Regency before I mentioned it in this thread? How about the other for profit schools? You are so fixated on U of P you do not see the larger picture. Even state schools have revenue expectations from various sub units and online/distance is a cash cow. Its even better than the executive and weekend wonder programs.

When it comes to the online schools, all share the same basic accreditation. U of P has a stigma, but the rest of them do not seem to at this time, and probably never will since it would also reflect on the name schools.

Open you eyes a bit on this topic, you might learn something

[Hannah Bell]

34. a fundie for-profit "christian" university! the pat robertson school lol!

now i REALLY know where you're coming from.

& yes, i'd heard of it. the fucking shock troops of the dominionists.

quite a few of them at DU, too.

"get thee behind me"

[elehhhhna]

73. oooh SNAP! In which HaBe pwns the Perfesser! LMAO

[ProgressiveProfessor]

74. You would not say that if you had seen what was in the deleted portion

HB's fixation with U of P ignores all the other for profits and the non-private and public schools that are jumping on the online/distance learning cash cow and destroying the value in both undergraduate and graduate degrees.

In that fixation and fervor, she assumed that I was referring to Regent, not Regency. She leaped on that in repeated posts and did not heed any calls to check her facts. What she had failed to realize that Regency is not Regent, it does not have a Dominionist law school, or even grant degrees. It is a private, for profit multi state Beauty College (Regency.edu) that feeds into the Regency Salon chain. Its was an intentional twist on the reducto ad absurdum technique. I did try and give her a sporting chance...

[elehhhhna]

77. when was "pedantic" redefined to mean "poorly informed but noisy"?

[Hannah Bell]

14. which ones are those? working people are precisely the people who

should skip these expensive scam colleges & their worthless degrees.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

19. Those you dismiss include places like Claremont, Univ of MD, USC and others

and the expenses are pretty uniform these days. Market forces and all that.

[Hannah Bell]

21. claremont colleges, are, i believe, private colleges, not for-profit businesses.

i've never heard of for-profit businesses that have endowments.

maybe they have an on-line for-profit arm.

but they've been around since the 1800s & their tuition/fees = $38K.

yeah, a good bargain for the "working class" no doubt.

university of southern california also = private college, not for-profit business.

you don't seem to think there's a difference.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

23. No real difference at the functional level

Public/private non-profit/private-for profit all charge for instruction and related services. All are accredited and all confer degrees. While U of P has a bit of a stigma, Regency and even the big names who do pretty much the same thing in addition to the weekend wonders/executive programs do not. Its a perception issue.


I chose USC etc since most people recognize them. However University of MD and even the Univ of North Dakota offer similar programs and they are state schools.

As I stated earlier, the costs are starting to align/stratify. Also most of the higher end online degrees are paid for, at least in part, by the employer, not the employee.

I do maintain that not doing the campus thing really is missing an important piece of the college experience. I personally have never chosen to teach online since I value the interaction so highly.

[Hannah Bell]

25. The fact that something costs money doesn't make it a profit-making business that pays dividends

or profits out to owners or investors, as does e.g. university of phoenix, itt tech, etc.

state-funded colleges & universities also "charge money".

profit-making, ownership & shareholding, franchising, etc. = a big difference, & i hope you'll quit pretending it doesn't exist & pretending that there's *any* similarity whatsoever between u. of phoenix & USC.


"The University of Phoenix (UPX) is a private for-profit institution of higher learning. It is a wholly owned subsidiary of Apollo Group Inc. which is publicly traded on NASDAQ (APOL) a S&P 500 corporation based in Phoenix, Arizona.

University of Phoenix has an open enrollment admission policy, which only requires proof of a high-school diploma, GED, or its equivalent"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Phoenix


U of Phoenix will take, & probably pass, any warm body with a GED.

USC, I assure you, will not.

That's just one of the many reasons why a USC degree has more cred than a UP degree or any other for-profit "degree".


Here's a report from one of the potential "instructors":


I "applied" to teach systems courses. At the last minute, I also quit the process. The "interview" process was laughable as was the "recruiter" who touted one of their "degrees".

I found out that teaching some of the basic systems courses requires that the instructor PAY for the software involved. And, the instructor has to keep the "versioning" current. So, introductory courses to something like web design might run an instructor about $1,000 on the first go. The instructor covers connectivity, etc.

$200 for nine weeks? Minus FICA, etc.

Most serfdom gigs probably paid better.

Then I started to question student quality. It surely doesn't take much to apply for admission to the school, just the ability to pay for it. No SATs, ACTs, etc.

I would do far better hiring myself out as a private tutor at local colleges on a per hour basis.

http://www.epinions.com/review/educ-Colleges_and_Universities-All-University_of_Phoenix/content_182477753988/show_~allcom


For this crappy job, the interview process is longer & stupider than a regular part-time college gig.

UP = BIG FAT EXPENSIVE JOKE.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

28. You ignore that this is much bigger than just U of P, which is far from the only for profit school

out there. Fixate on it as you wish, but you are ignoring the rest of the online/weekend wonder industry.

[Name removed]

30. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Hannah Bell]

42. let's start over. university of phoenix is crap, so is regent hair school for suckers,

where a multinational corp makes its future employees pay them through the nose to be trained, & so is the rest of the for-profit education biz.

absolute crap on a shitty stick.

[Bill McBlueState]

35. depends on what you mean by 'effective'

That word could mean almost anything.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

36. Any number of schools offer distance learning/online programs

Its far from just U of P these days. There are also the executive and weekend wonder degrees. Effectiveness is mostly subjective, but clearly more and more employers are recognizing them and funding them. That is a practical measure of their worth in the eyes of industry and government employers. Also the number are growing indicating that people are getting the knowledge without having to do the campus thing. For some its the only way they can.

[kgnu_fan]

9. bleeding ground for ....???

[QC]

44. I know a couple of people who used to "teach" for Phoenix.

They were told, though a bit more delicately than this, that everyone who paid the bill would pass.

Learning is not a high priority, apparently.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

45. The question becomes is that just true at U of P or are most/all of the online

weekend wonder or executive degree programs the same way.

[QC]

47. Unfortunately, even many "traditional colleges" are heading in that direction,

thanks to the customer service mentality that now enthralls the corporate wannabes in higher ed administration.

The student is the customer, and you know what they say about the customer....

Students have got the message, too--they now feel free to treat us with the sort of casual rudeness that would have gotten you and me a good cussing and a warning never to show our faces in that department again. The online students can be even worse--since they never see us in the flesh, we are not quite real to them and thus a safe target for whatever petulance they feel like dishing out on a given day. After all, they are our customers....

As much as I loathe Phoenix, what I hate more is what the corporate model is doing to the rest of us.

[CBR]

46. It is a total joke. I am a complete snob about this. There

are real colleges that have online learning programs.

[QC]

48. Practically every community college in the country now has an online program

that offers courses for less than a hundred bucks a credit hour. Most of these are taught by the same faculty who also teach f2f classes.

There's simply no need to resort to corporate programs, unless, of course, one wants guaranteed A's.

[CBR]

67. Yup. Here is our local...

http://dtcc.edu/

My husband got his AA at Del Tech in a program that feeds you, if you want, into University of Delaware for a BS -- great experience at both schools.

[Renew Deal]

62. I know people that went to school there that failed classes

So you're source is questionable.

[Soylent Brice]

63. +1

i know several people who have failed classes with them.
funny that the OP posts this story, but fails to mention the rebuttal:

www.phoenix.edu/frontline

interesting stuff in there, and took me less than 30 seconds to find this.

just for the record i'm not big on for-profit anything, but i'm no expert on education either.

[devilgrrl]

65. Oh! Let me sign up for classes NOW!

So Frontline's full of it?

[Soylent Brice]

66. as is with all media, half truths, half lies.

who knows. both sides may have a point.

me personally, i don't know, nor do i give a shit. just pointing out, as with everything else we read here, it only takes a few clicks to find info that may be pertinent.

[harun]

49. I am a proud graduate of U of P. Not any more or less corrupt and for-profit

than the brick and morters.

College in the U.S. is BIG BUSINESS. Hopefully someday we will make it about education and training instead of profit.

[BuelahWitch]

53. Wow, Arne Duncan is a slimeball, isn't he?

:puke:

[tonysam]

61. You said it? The guy absolutely makes me cringe.

He's an idiot, despite or because of being a Harvard graduate.

[REACTIVATED IN CT]

54. Sucking on the teat of government.

That's the phrase that came to my mind after watching this show. These for-profit "universities" are a scam to take student loan money from our government . They don't provide a quality education in return.

The nursing students they interviewed had never had clinical training in a hospital yet rec'd nursing certificates. They can't get jobs but they have these student loans to pay off.

Another student rec'd a Doctorate in Psychology but the "university" was not accredited by the APA so the PhD isn't worth the paper its printed on.

"Buyer beware" was the other phrase that came to mind. Arne Duncan and DOE should be cracking down on these schools.

[MilesColtrane]

57. University of Phoenix? phhhooey!

Why take any tests at all when you can get your doctorate for 180 clams?

http://www.instantdegrees.com/lifeexperiencedegrees.html

[Blue_Tires]

58. All I can say is buyer beware...

the past couple of months there have been major exposes on both the culinary schools and auto tech schools which have been luring students to take out Ivy-league sized loans on the empty promise of a high-paying dream job in 3 years....

[supernova]

59. My last boss got accepted to U of P

This is someone who is maybe 10 years younger than me, so maybe late 30s, just 40.

She came to work all excited one day. "I got accepted to Grad School!"

Oh, that's great, says I. What school? I was thinking she was going to say Duke, Carolina, NC State, or NCCU. There is no dearth of places to go to grad school around here.

'University of Phoenix!"

:wow:

I said well, Congratulations. And you won't have to worry abound rushing out of here to go to class. But, this is someone who finished engineering school, so I was sort of taken aback by the seeming step backwards.

If that sounds biased, I suppose it is.

There is a problem with higher ed and the concentration on cashing tuition checks and passing people, regardless of the quality of curriculum or work involved. But places like UP don't help. They get away with it because businesses will pay for tuition for these places. My former boss is getting a tuition benefit from our employer. Business, just as in it's fancy accounting practices that don't make real money is also not into real learning either.

[tonysam]

60. The "Frontline" show was outstanding

These for-profit schools are scams, degree mills, which are designed to scam the taxpayers by abusing the student loan program.

[tonysam]

64. Excellent extended interview with one of the people in the program

who talks at length about accreditation, and the problems in the old system in dealing with these for-profit degree mills.

Barmak Nassirian

[freeplessinseattle]

71. They advertise on tv here, thought it was weird

Not for any online thing either, it's all about sunshine and scenery. U of Idaho advertises on tv here, too, but that makes more sense since ID borders my state.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

75. There are not alone, many online programs do

Many are private/for profit, though you have a heck of a time finding that bit of data. U of P has the stigma, but there are numerous clones running just under the radar.