Woman can't sue now over alleged sexual abuse as child, state Supreme Court rules

[The Straight Story]

Woman can't sue now over alleged sexual abuse as child, state Supreme Court rules

COLUMBUS -- The Ohio Supreme Court has affirmed that a 33-year-old woman was too late in suing over alleged childhood sexual abuse she said she had repressed in her memory.

The court today ruled that a 2006 Ohio law clearly sets a 12-year statute of limitations for filing claims and that it begins when a victim turns 18.

Lower courts had reached the same conclusion. But the woman appealed to the state's highest court, claiming that the 12-year period time limit should begin when any repressed memories are recalled.

The Supreme Court disagreed. Justice Maureen O'Connor wrote that the court feels compassion for victims who are slow to recover their memories of childhood sexual abuse. But she said the law is clear and the court won't rewrite it.

http://www.dispatch.com/live/content/local_news/stories/2010/05/05/childhood-sex-abuse-ohio-supreme-court.html?type=rss&cat=&sid=101

[LiberalLoner]

1. How very convenient for abusers. I was sexually abused (raped, actually) many times

as a child, and I can tell you that I was suicidal for most of my life and also convinced that there was something wrong with ME that made the abuse happen. I thought I was just this worthless piece of garbage and abuse was my punishment for having the audacity to exist.

I was in no shape for the first couple of decades of my adult life to press charges. And that is not uncommon.

We do not spring back from years of brutal abuse, like dandelions springing back after a mowing.

This statute of limitations - along with all the other crap victims have to go through - ensure that those who rape their own children never pay any price.

I wonder if any price will be paid when they stand before God? Or does God hate children and women as much as this society does?
I think about that. I think about that a lot. And some days, like today, I am convinced that God hates us and that's why crap like this happens.

[FreakinDJ]

2. Wasn't the "Repressed Memory Syndrome" completely debunked

some time ago

The existence of repressed memories is a controversial topic in psychology; some studies have concluded that it can occur in victims of trauma, while others dispute it. According to the American Psychological Association, it is not currently possible to distinguish a true repressed memory from a false one without corroborating evidence
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Repressed_memory

Elizabeth F. Loftus is an American psychologist and expert on human memory. She has conducted extensive research on the misinformation effect and the nature of false memories. Loftus has been recognized throughout the world for her work, receiving numerous awards and honorary degrees. In 2002, Loftus was 58th in a list of the 100 most influential researchers in psychology in the 20th century, and the highest ranked woman on the list.<1>

After criticizing the theory of recovered memory and testifying about the nature of memory and false allegations of child sexual abuse as part of the day care sex abuse hysteria, Loftus was subject to on-line harassment by Diana Napolis. A conspiracy theorist, Napolis believed Loftus was engaged in satanic ritual abuse or assisted in covering up these crimes as part of a larger conspiracy.<14> After addressing a scientific conference in New Zealand, Loftus was accosted by a group of protesters who alleged she had abused children, in part basing their accusations on Napolis' web postings.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elizabeth_Loftus

[Lance_Boyle]

3. Time and time again.

But people keep on bringing it back. It's like the "Thimerosol in vaccines causes autism" thing. Disproved. But don't tell Jenny McCarthy or her rabid anti-science followers.

[pnwmom]

22. Wrong. People are misunderstanding what she is saying.

She is talking about whether repressed memories can be relied on in court hearings, since they can be manipulated or change over time.

That does NOT mean that some people don't repress memories of painful things that really happened, or that those memories can sometimes return. It just means that it is difficult to distinguish which memories are true and which aren't.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

156. From a legal sense, repressed memory has no standing and can not be used

Which is quite appropriate

[pnwmom]

165. Not true. Every case is different and recovered memories have the same reliability

as continuous memories, according to dozens of research studies. In each case, other evidence needs to be introduced to support reported memories (whether recovered or continuous). Courts do NOT automatically exclude recovered memories, and they shouldn't.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

194. Try to find a DA that will base a case on just recovered memories

They have no prima facie standing and outside of a few diehards professionals will not touch them either.

[pnwmom]

202. Try reading my post again. That's not what I said. n/t

[pinboy3niner]

175. No, "no standing" is false

Recovered memory evidence may be admissable when there is corroboration.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

193. I should have said prima facie standing

If the only direct evidence is recovered memories, there is no case.

[pinboy3niner]

196. Agreed. Corroborating evidence changes the game nt

[wolfgangmo]

54. This is less about "repressed memory syndrome"

And more akin to PTSD.

By the way, I loved the way you slickly slid in the irrelevant mention of vaccine. Stay on point much?

[LiberalLoner]

4. It might have been, but as a survivor I can tell you that even in recent years,

something would trigger a memory that I had not thought about for many years. I consciously tried to go somewhere else in my head to get away from the shame when I was being raped, and that left me with very fuzzy memories. But there are times when something will trigger me, will make a memory stand out more clearly and it's like I'm reliving that time again. I'm told that's part of my having PTSD from how I was treated as a child, that it's common to have things that trigger this "reliving" experience of the trauma.

[pnwmom]

25. It must be very frustrating to have thoughtless people implying

that what you're remembering isn't real -- as if they could know.

People who say things like "repressed memories have been debunked" are twisting Loftus' work. She has been able to prove that, in the laboratory, memories can be manipulated. She CANNOT prove that your individual memories are wrong.

I know someone with a repressed (and later recalled) memory of a trauma, and I know for a fact that the memory was true. Why? Because three other people were there at the time of the incident -- and two of them told me about it immediately afterwards. Only the person who was most traumatized blocked the memory.

[LiberalLoner]

27. I had my sister who also corroborated what happened to me...because sometimes

I couldn't remember some of the details.

Thanks for understanding why I was so angry in this thread. Yes, it felt like people were telling ME that I was full of crap because I could not remember some details for many years. It felt like people were cheering on MY abuser and laughing at what happened to ME.

And yes that made me furiously angry.

[pnwmom]

33. I understand. I know they didn't intend to disparage you, or your memories,

but by implying that ALL recovered memories were false, they were including yours in their sweeping statements.

[LiberalLoner]

34. Yes. Thank you. :) n/t

[FedUpWithIt All]

126. Sometimes people are too limited to relate to anything they have not experienced themselves.

Don't let them affect you. You know what you have experienced, you know how you were wronged and that is not changed by the limited view of another. Too many people have immature empathy and understanding about anything outside of their bubble.

I am sorry you endured what you did.

I also have PTSD although mine is from other types of experiences. The physical response that comes about from recognized stimuli is VERY real and can be very upsetting. Memories definitely become more vivid following an "episode". RET has helped me indescribably. It is rare that i have the emotional memory responses anymore.

[LiberalLoner]

129. I'm sorry that happened to you. I'm glad you were helped some by RET. That's what

I've been experiencing really today with this thread, is a physical kind of reaction, like a flashback. It's been pretty hard to take today.

[FedUpWithIt All]

137. I know what you're talking about. I have to just step away sometimes.

Have to let my own processes work before i can possible deal with others, sometimes narrow, views.

Truth is that my process(health)and well being is more important, to myself and the people that count on me, than anything and i am quite selfish anymore about protecting it.

Realize first that they do not change your reality and then go about taking care of yourself first. You can fight the battles later, and believe me there will always be battles to fight, but from a stronger and safer place. I hope you have a peaceful evening.

:hug:

[Name removed]

141. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LiberalLoner]

143. Ah, the "block" function, instant relief from jerks, LOL! n/t

[LiberalLoner]

5. And why is it that people are so fucking HAPPY when rapists get away with rape? And when their

victims can't sue them or get any kind of justice?

I'm watching people on this thread fucking APPLAUD this ruling and I'm thinking, God, I wish I had the power to make you go through what I went through as a child. Just one time. Just once. Then let's hear you talk about how stupid it is for a victim to want to sue even years after it happenned.

[Name removed]

8. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

11. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Silent3]

9. How is being skeptical about "repressed memories" the...

...equivalent of being "fucking HAPPY when rapists get away with rape"?

[dmallind]

10. Strange - I see none of that.

I see people rightfully question "repressed memories" that have been used to ruin the lives of many people thanks to the viciousness of charlatan "experts". I don;t see word one about wanting rapists to get away with anything. In fact I think I can confidently assume that most people want rapists to be prosecuted immediately not after a couple of decades when some hack pop-psych notoriety seeker pops up to claim they can discover "hidden memories" in the victim.

[LiberalLoner]

13. In a perfect world, maybe they would be prosecuted, but you know what really happens? the

families blame the victim, not the abuser, and the victim takes in this hatred and believes she is at fault. Like I did. I've attempted suicide a few times and my body is scarred all over from me taking knives and razors to it in self-hatred.

I was in no shape to try to sue my abusers. In fact I am still not strong enough to do so.

So my rapist gets off scot free. And got to rape his own daughter, in fact, until his ex wife had enough and divorced him before he could do more harm.

And no, she didn't turn him in either. And his daughter will not sue either...

That's how it goes.

Trust me, that's how it ALWAYS goes.

[dmallind]

16. Yes victims get blamed. Yes it's terrible

But you did not rely on repressed memories did you? What you are willing to do is up to you, but no it's absolutely not always how it happens or no-one would ever be prosecuted for abuse. The more victims who CAN testify who do so and so so immediately, the more effectively abusers will be punished. Waiting 15 years helps nobody.

[Wednesdays]

75. Is waiting forever better?

:shrug:

[LiberalLoner]

77. You just give up and accept that it's your lot in life to have these things happen to you. n/t

[WolverineDG]

51. So why are you blaming the legal system?

Sounds like you, his ex, & his daughter are letting this person get away with it. If this guy is so bad, why are you letting him continue to abuse kids?

And btw, if this daughter is under 18, AND you & the ex suspect she has been or is being abused AND neither of you report it, then you & the ex are condoning the abuse by not reporting it.


dg

[pnwmom]

119. She is saying that it often takes victims a long time before they can face their abusers.

There is nothing she can do about her own abuse now. And she doesn't clearly doesn't want to traumatize the daughter further. That doesn't mean she condones the abuse.

Talk about blaming the victim . . . .

[WolverineDG]

127. I understand that, many people do

but to keep going on & on & on about how she just can't get herself together enough to do something & how it's somehow everyone else's fault that the statute of limitations has now passed is a bit much & I'm not shouldering the blame for that nor apologizing for it. There is a LOT more awareness out there now than even a decade ago, many more services available, especially if you report the crime, much of it covered by Crime Victims Compensation.

And not reporting child abuse she KNOWS is going on *IS* condoning it. In fact, in some states, it's a crime.

dg

[LiberalLoner]

130. For one thing, I do not "KNOW" of it. What I know is what i heard

second-hand from my older sister about why my brother got divorced. I do not have the phone number or address of his ex or the child. Only my sister was in a position to hear first-hand what happened, and I could not act on second-hand information. Plus by the time I heard of it, (I was away from my family of origin for over a decade) the divorce had already happened and there was no more contact between my brother and his child.

[LiberalLoner]

131. The other thing is that I literally do not know where my brother is.

I do not know if he is even alive. I have done searches for him using the name he was given at birth and nothing comes up, no phone number, no address. My sister also has no idea where the hell he is.

Hard to sue a person when you don't know where they are or if they are alive or not.

[WolverineDG]

145. The cops have investigators nt

[pnwmom]

148. You can't be serious. No investigation would be opened on the basis of

second or third hand information on something that MAY have occurred a decade ago to a victim who hasn't come forward. The police have plenty of actual complaints to investigate.

[WolverineDG]

180. Funny how this story changed as the suggestion was made to report the abuse

First she says she "knows" the ex and the daughter were abused. As I kept insisting that she report the abuse (and I'm stunned that on DU where children are worshiped as gods, no one else brought this up), the excuses as to why got feebler & feebler. And, quite frankly, give me a fucking break--she doesn't know the names of her ex sister in law & niece & can't get that information, even though it allegedly was provided to her by another relative?

So, I'm going with my original position: if you know a child is being abused but you don't do shit about it, you're condoning the abuse, ESPECIALLY if the abuser was the one you claim abused you.

dg

[pinboy3niner]

188. What is wrong with you?

You reply to someone who obviously is struggling with extremely difficult emotional issues, and the approach you choose to take is to come on as a hardass? Are you really that empathy-challenged?

You ignore all of the information presented here, and insist that, somehow, a report by someone with no first-hand evidence will convince the police to launch an investigation based on rumors, hearsay, and innuendo.

You are not contributing anything of value to this discussion. And you cannot imagine how much I'm biting my tongue to be civil with you.

Ed. to add: I notice you've come back on the thread to scatter your droppings all over the place. One can't help but wonder about the motivations of someone who engages in that kind of behavior . . .

[WolverineDG]

197. Nothing is wrong with me, I'm pointing out the obvious

and the obvious is that this story about another victim of the same abuser has changed quite a bit. First mention of it, she claimed she *KNEW* all about the abuse. The more I brought up the fact that she has to report it, the more the story changed & excuses for not reporting given.

And yes, I'm going to be a hard-ass because on any other thread involving child abuse, DUers scream to the high heavens that anyone involved or who knew a child was being abused should be thrown in jail (or worse). She knows a child is being abused. She's done nothing to stop it.

I'm not in the "I'm a victim so I'll always be helpless" brigade. At some point, you become responsible for your actions or inactions. Too many victims of all ages come forward to make reports & prosecute & there are now many more services available for those that do.

dg

[pinboy3niner]

201. No, she doesn't "know" about any abuse

She has no first-hand evidence to offer.

The person you've decided to go all hard-ass on is a victim of child sexual abuse. You may think it's "kewl" to harangue, harass and stomp all over her, after all that she's endured--and continues to endure--but I doubt you'll have much sympathy here.

Your argument has already been refuted. Why be so purposefully hurtful? It smacks of blaming the victim, all over again.

[WolverineDG]

216. No, just telling her to DO SOMETHING instead of the nothing she has been doing for decades

is not going "all hard ass" on a victim.

dg

[pinboy3niner]

218. You still just don't get it, do you? nt

[pnwmom]

207. She didn't say she knew "all about" the abuse. She said she had heard that he

had abused another child years ago, and of course she believed what she heard because it had also happened to her. And ever since then, you've been attacking her , even though there's nothing she could have done before or since then about the situation, since she only heard about it ten years after the fact from someone who wasn't directly involved.

[WolverineDG]

215. I'm not attacking her, just pointing out she needs to do something nt

[LiberalLoner]

203. Thank you for this post. :) I had a therapist explain to me once that

people generally will either identify with the abuser, in which case they will kick a person who is down and try to harm them further, or they identify with the abused, in which case they will try to help a person.

People who identify with the abusers of the world generally become abusers themselves, and bullies, in real life and also on the internet.

I don't wonder about the motivations of this person I've blocked...I'm certain what he's all about, because I've seen types like him before in my life. You have, too. We've all encountered bullies, much to our detriment.

One thing I've noticed is that bullies tend not to do very well in life. Kind of instant Karma if you will. They have failed relationship after failed relationship, they have no real friends, and sometimes they don't do as well in their professional lives as they might have if they had not been so empathy-challenged. They have higher rates of substance abuse, problems with the law, that sort of thing.

For me the most important and most telling part of a person's character is how they respond to someone who is suffering. Do they kick them and harm them further? That is a person I do not want to have anything to do with - someone I want to get far, far away from. Do they help them and act with compassion? That is someone I value and am honored to know.

[LiberalLoner]

206. P.S. I have to say (laughing now) that I did expect better from Democrats, LOL - I had

always thought of right-wingers as being the bullies and Democrats as being compassionate people, but that's not always the case, obviously....I learned something in this thread, LOL!

[WolverineDG]

144. You can still make a report of your suspicions

rationalize your condoning of abuse anyway you want to, sister. Not going to work with me, not with the resources available now to investigate these claims.

dg

[pnwmom]

149. There are no resources to investigate claims like this. I know,

because I tried to report something that was told to me second-hand. They weren't interested in pursuing it at all unless with first-hand knowledge made a complaint. And that makes sense, really.

[WolverineDG]

181. Get out more often nt

[LiberalLoner]

132. You're right. I am wrong to have let myself be raped, and I am wrong to have chosen severe

mental illness.

[LiberalLoner]

134. And just so we get an understanding between us, I still would not sue even today because

I do not feel like having someone like you quiz me on how I must have loved being raped and how I"m obviously not believable as a witness since I've attempted suicide several times.

[LiberalLoner]

135. People like you have done a really good job making sure people like me know our place and

never try to seek justice.

[WolverineDG]

140. Attempt to guilt trip not working

Not taking guff from someone who refuses to report child abuse.

dg

[Name removed]

151. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[uppityperson]

167. Did you know you keep replying to yourself? This the post this replies to

and the one it replies to. If you click "reply" on the post you are actually talking to, it makes more sense and that poster will see that you answered them again.

it can be confusing.

[pinboy3niner]

179. Replying to one's own post . . .

can be a way of adding to, elaborating, or expanding on the content of the original post. It doesn't happen a lot, but when it does, it's pretty apparent and obvious. And, if it serves to give us additional insight into the poster's thinking, I don't see a problem. It's not something I would do, ordinarilly, but I can envision circumstances in which it might be useful.

[uppityperson]

212. I agree. Can be on purpose to expand, or by accident like I did a bunch at first

my first forum I kept replying to myself. Ah well.

[pinboy3niner]

224. Nice to see you've now mastered the art of not talking to yourself

Thanks for the chuckle. When things get intense, a little levity is very welcome.

[WolverineDG]

138. Never said that

Why are you making shit up on DU when you should be REPORTING CHILD SEX ABUSE YOU KNOW IS GOING ON?

dg

[pnwmom]

152. Why do you keep twisting what she said? She isn't in possession of any facts

that an investigator would pursue -- except for what happened to her. And she's under no obligation to report that to anyone.

[WolverineDG]

183. Oh hello, please tell me where I said I was happy she was raped

because I'm not the one twisting things like a bendy straw.

And it's not up to her to report abuse to her niece or not. I'm stunned that you are condoning this behavior.

dg

[pnwmom]

208. You're not making any sense at all.

You're certainly not replying to my post.

[LiberalLoner]

210. LOL - yes, he's on the high people get from being bullies n/t

[WolverineDG]

136. Did I say that?

:eyes:

Go report the abuse to this daughter if you're really serious about this. You expect me to have sympathy for you when you sit back & let another child be abused?

dg

[LiberalLoner]

139. Did you not read my posts? Do not know the daughter's name. All I know is

my brother is no longer in contact with her or with his ex. Nor can I convict him based on second-hand evidence from my sister.

You are a real jerk. I'm not responding to you anymore. You are not worth my time.

[WolverineDG]

142. the cops can find out

they DO have investigators, you know. :eyes:

dg

[pnwmom]

153. The police aren't interested in hear-say about 10 year old incidents. n/t

[WolverineDG]

184. Not a defense nt

[pinboy3niner]

191. Not an answer nt

[pnwmom]

147. No, it's NOT a crime, unless you're in the category of required reporters.

And previous victims do not fall in that category. (Depending on the locale, people like doctors, social workers, and teachers, do.)

She is expressing sympathy for the woman in the OP and using her own circumstances to explain what it can be like for the victims -- and why it can take so long to come forward. Why don't you try listening harder and blaming less?

[pinboy3niner]

154. +1 and thanks for being here, pnwmom

I can cut a lot of slack for someone who has difficulty understanding something outside his or her experience. Willful insensitivity and ignorance, however, is another matter entirely.

Thanks again for your valuable contributions here.

Ed.: typo

[pnwmom]

155. Thank you, too, pinboy3niner.

I have also appreciated your thoughtful posts.

[WolverineDG]

182. And most states now have laws requiring EVERYONE to report abuse

so if her state does, yup, she's broken the law.

Again, no sympathy from me on this issue. The duty is to make a report & saying that the authorities won't do anything is not a defense.

dg

[pinboy3niner]

192. Cretinous statements deserve no reply

[pnwmom]

209. Are you purposely ignorant or deliberately lying? It's hard to tell.

There isn't a state in the country that requires anyone to report an incident that someone else told you happened ten years ago to a third party.

[Karenina]

100. Welcome to DU, LiberalLoner!

Have you seen Sinead O'Connor's recent interviews? Do you remember her ripping up JP2's photo on SNL?

For your own education, do allow your Tate K. to suggest that you research the entanglements of the Catholic church with the Irish gub'mint and the societal institutions they set up. If you're clever, I have NO DOUBT that you'll immediately connect the dots. :hug:

[LiberalLoner]

103. :) Thank you. I saw the movie about the abuse of girls at the laundry that was run by

the Catholic church. I cried and cried when I saw it. It's hard for me to understand why people who say they serve God, could do such things.

[pnwmom]

116. Why are you assuming that the woman in this case was treated by a quack?

I just read the article at the link and there is no mention of a therapist. Many people recover memories of abuse completely on their own, and their memories -- research has shown -- are just as reliable as continuous memories.

[WolverineDG]

47. Maybe because these folks believe you need reliable EVIDENCE to convict someone

and "repressed memories" are not reliable.

Statute of limitations aren't "stupid;" they apply across the board in a wide variety of civil & criminal cases because the further away in time you are from an event, the less reliable the evidence becomes.

dg

[pnwmom]

123. Recovered memories are as reliable as other memories, according to the research.

All memories introduced as evidence in court need to be backed up by other evidence.

[WolverineDG]

128. And since that evidence disappears over time, we have statutes of limitation in place nt

[tango-tee]

173. I'm so sorry that you endured such a living hell.

And for the perpetrators not to be brought to justice must be an additional kick in the teeth to those who've suffered and are still suffering.

[pnwmom]

20. No, it wasn't. Loftus has written and done research on the fact that memories

can be manipulated and they can change over the years. Thus, they can be hard to RELY on without other evidence.

But this does NOT mean, logically, that every memory that returns after a period of years is wrong, or that people do not repress memories.

[aikoaiko]

31. Not debunked per se. Its difficult to know whether its a true repressed memory or a created memory

That's different than saying repressed memories that resurface don't exist.

[Lance_Boyle]

32. If they do exist, they are not reliable

and not admissible as evidence. How would one distinguish between a "real" repressed memory and pure fantasy? Corroborating evidence would seem to be the only way to gauge the veracity of a claim. And if there is corroborating evidence (which there never is), then nobody would rely on the "repressed memory" testimony in the first place.

[pnwmom]

37. They do exist. Loftus herself has never said otherwise.

The issue is, as you have correctly pointed out, how helpful they may be as evidence. Sometimes they are admissible and sometimes not -- depending on the circumstances.

But you are wrong in saying that there is never corroborating evidence -- there often is. The memories are used ALONG with the rest of the evidence to convict abusers.

[pnwmom]

48. Here's a link to a great deal of research on the other side of the issue.

According to these researchers, recovered memories of abuse are as reliable as continuous memories.

http://www.jimhopper.com/memory/

For example:

Scheflin, A. W., & Brown, D. Repressed memory or dissociative amnesia: What the science says.

Abstract: "Legal actions of alleged abuse victims based on recovered memories of childhood sexual abuse (CSA) have been challenged arguing that the concept of repressed memories does not meet a generally accepted standard of science. . . . Studies addressing the accuracy of memories show that recovered memories are no more or no less accurate than continuous memories for abuse.

[aikoaiko]

117. In fact non-repressed memories aren't very good although we still allow them in court.

But you're correct the recovered memories have reliability problems.

I do recall some research that looked at hospital records of children and then asked them follow-up questions as adults and many had no recollections of traumatic things that had happened. I don't remember the details beyond that, but the researchers offered it as a possible demonstration of repressed memories. Whether or not they could be recovered accurately was another question.

[pnwmom]

38. You've got it. n/t

[demosincebirth]

35. A few years ago, in Ca., a father sued a med group and won a large settlement...

from these quacks, who supposedly pulled up a repressed memory about an abuse he supposedly committed when she was a child.

[LiberalLoner]

36. I agree that false memories used to prosecute are a travesty. n/t

[marshall]

169. I remember Roseanne saying she repressed being raped at age 2 months

She recovered the memory in therapy.

[AnArmyVeteran]

174. Child rape kills a spirit, Murder kills a physical being. Both are equally horrendous.

Child rape kills a spirit, Murder kills a physical being. Both are equally horrendous. Both should receive the same punishment.

Child abuse or child rape is the equivalent to murder. The victim has their spirit and their lives destroyed. They become dead inside. They are terrified to reach out, or they have no one to reach out to. Child abuse or child rape forever harms a person. People who mindlessly say to just shake it off and go on with your lives are clueless, heartless and have no compassion for their fellow man. Until they experience the destruction of their spirit by being raped as a child they will never know the extreme pain, shame, depression and anger a victim experiences. And they will never know or care about the high level of suicides caused by physical, mental, emotional or sexual assaults against children. But when a victim commits suicide it is they who are often blamed, when the true murderer was the person who forced them to do the worst act imaginable against another person, the sexual abuse of a child.

This topic shouldn't even be up for debate. There is already enough concrete information to support repressed memories and the devastating emotional consequences of being sexually victimized. And the perpetrators of acts against the most vulnerable should be accountable for their crimes, just as a murderer is accountable for their crimes. One murders the soul of another person. The other murders his physical being. Both are as horrendous as the other and no statutes of limitations should exist for either crime. Perpetrators need to be brought to justice and severely punished for the destruction of another human being, especially since their crime was against the most vulnerable in society...

[LiberalLoner]

205. Wow...you really get what this is all about...you really understand...thank you. n/t

[RainDog]

185. I'm not defending the cases cited there. however, dissociative amnesia exists

and is a possible reaction to trauma.

I know this exists because it happened to me. I was severely traumatized as a 12 year old (not something sexual in nature, something violent) and my brain "conveniently" forgot events around that period of time.

when I was 21, my older sister and my brother told me about things that I said and did at that time that I had no memory of...and have only faint, disjointed memories of now.

sometimes something is too overwhelming for someone to process and dissociative amnesia is one of the mind's defenses against trauma.

[LiberalLoner]

199. I'm sorry you went through something that awful. Thank you for posting and trying to

teach people about dissociative amnesia.

I hope that it hasn't affected you too severely and that you've been able to have a good life in spite of what happened.

[pinboy3niner]

220. Good insight, RainDog

Along with all the negative effects of our trauma, there are positives, too--like the kind of insight you've shown here.

[dmallind]

6. "Repressed Memory" BS again? NT

[LiberalLoner]

7. Oh, sure, why should victims be able to sue for something like this? I mean it's not like any

harm was done, right?

[dmallind]

12. They should sue - and heck prosecute - immediately.

Harm may have been done if claims are accurate. It's much easier to prove them immediately. It protects potential future victims more if done immediately. It punishes the perpetrator much more and more quickly if done immediately. Why do you think those are awful things (since we're getting into projected opinions here so I might as well reciprocate)? Why do you want rapists to walk around scot free for decades?

[LiberalLoner]

15. Did you read anything I wrote? Most of us come out of situations like that completely unable

psychologically to sue. Because we are taught to blame ourselves for what happened. It takes decades - if it ever happens - to be strong and healthy enough to sue or face your abuser.

Because you see, childhood years are our formative years. Those are the years when the most harm can be done to us.

I've been raped as an adult woman and I was raped as a child. Being raped as a child is far, far worse and does more damage.

It would be nice if women could sue their abusers and have them punished. But most of us do not have the mental wellness or strength to accomplish that.

Most victims, like me, turn our rage on ourselves. And the abusers never face justice.

[dmallind]

19. I disagreed with it. I still do

People face their abusers on a timely basis all the time. They have a mcuh higher success rate than those who wait decades, and get their abusers in jail or in treatment to protect others. What you can or cannot do is your call alone, and nothing that should be generalized.

[LiberalLoner]

23. I've been in a lot of therapy groups with survivors...none of us got any justice or

even ever tried - most of us were spending too much of our internal resources just trying to not commit suicide or self-harm in other ways.

[pnwmom]

30. The issue is with CHILDREN. Why do you keep glossing over that fact? n/t

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

50. Not really.

the statute of limitations doesn't start until the "victim" turns 18. Says right there in the article.

[dmallind]

61. No - the OP is about a woman in her 30s. Why do you keep missing that? NT

[LiberalLoner]

62. I think I would feel better if there had even been one person to express sympathy for the woman in

her 30's. If someone had said, it's a shame that she was abused as a child and I hope she heals from it and finds happiness in spite of the pain she must carry every day.

I wish I understood better why there hasn't been that response.

[LiberalLoner]

64. I really wish someone could explain to me, why rape victims are so often shamed in our

society and blamed for what happened to them. And why our society seems to refuse to believe rape of children is so common and happens most often by family members rather than strangers. Those of us who were raped as children are usually told to "get over it" and "forgive your abuser, it was just natural after all" etc.

That is something I've never been able to understand and it's really bothered me.

No one claims murder never happens, or robbery never happens. No one says, "well, he deserved to get robbed, what with him having such a nice house and all."

[pnwmom]

87. It's odd that there was so little sympathy for this woman and yet

DUers jump on the entire Catholic Church every time there is any claim of priest abuse. . . even when the abuse took place forty or fifty years ago and the abuser can't defend himself because he is dead.

[LiberalLoner]

89. But those were BOYS being abused, at least the stories we heard of. Who cares what happens to

girls? Everyone knows we are worthless and so it doesn't matter what is done to us.

[pnwmom]

84. But you say she should it reported it immediately, and she was a CHILD then. n/t

[dmallind]

186. She should have - or at the very least immediately when the SOL started when she became an adult. N

[pnwmom]

204. She couldn't start the proceedings until she remembered the abuse.

That was the whole point of her claim -- that the statute of limitations should begin when the adult remembered the abuse.

[pinboy3niner]

63. "those who wait decades"

Is this a generalized comment? It implies choice, when, for a trauma survivor who has suppressed horrific memories, the suppression is a psychological reaction--not a choice at all.

[LiberalLoner]

65. Thank you. :) n/t

[RainDog]

187. exactly n/t

[pnwmom]

26. Children aren't in a position to sue immediately. And it often takes years to understand

what was done to them.

[Name removed]

28. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LiberalLoner]

39. Thank you. Don't understand why people refuse to understand this. n/t

[Lance_Boyle]

14. Simply because if they are relying on 'repressed memories' then they were never victims

in the first place.

You *do* know the history of "repressed memory syndrome," don't you? If not, you should educate yourself on the issue before spouting off any further in this thread. This thread is not about you.

[LiberalLoner]

18. Yes, I do know about the history of this. It's a shame there were witch hunts based on

false information. That is every bit as wrong as the rapes that are committed on children every day.

What I DO believe is that there should not be a statute of limitations on crap like this.

[pnwmom]

29. Wrong. You should educate YOURSELF before YOU "spout off" in this thread.

Why did you feel the need to insult a poster who has been writing of his or her own painful memory?

You are wrong about what Loftus is saying. Loftus -- who is not the only memory researcher in the world, by the way -- is NOT saying that no traumatic memory is ever repressed, or can be recalled. She is simply saying that because memories can be changed or manipulated, they are not good as courtroom evidence without other evidence. That doesn't lead to the conclusion that people with repressed memories that were recovered were "never victims in the first place." They may not have been -- or they may have been. In other words, the memories may be false -- or they may be true. Other evidence would be needed to determine the truth of the memories.

[brendan120678]

17. So the OH Supreme Court was ruling in accordance with the law.

If this woman still wants to sue her abusers, she should try to work to get the law overturned.
There's a current push in Connecticut to overturn a similar statute of limitations law, which is currently 30 years after the victim turns 18.

[LiberalLoner]

21. Okay, I'll back off my claim. Maybe not most men. But what I DO see as a survivor is a

society that seems to laugh at kids getting abused and seems to turn their backs on kids and women who get raped and seems to glory in violence against women and children.

Maybe I'm not seeing things accurately.

But that's what I see. And I'm very bitter and angry about it.

[LiberalLoner]

24. I read things like this (from Wikipedia) and feel anger and despair.

I don't think things will ever get any better. I think in fact they are getting worse.


Children of all ages, including infants,<30> are abused in the production of pornography.<9><16> The United States Department of Justice estimates that pornographers have recorded the abuse of more than one million children in the United States alone.<20> There is an increasing trend towards younger victims and greater brutality; according to Flint Waters, an investigator with the federal Internet Crimes Against Children Task Force, "These guys are raping infants and toddlers. You can hear the child crying, pleading for help in the video. It is horrendous."<31> According to the World Congress against Commercial Sexual Exploitation of Children, "While impossible to obtain accurate data, a perusal of the child pornography readily available on the international market indicates that a significant number of children are being sexually exploited through this medium."<32>

[LiberalLoner]

40. For people who say this is not a growing problem:

The NCMEC estimated in 2003 that 20% of all pornography traded over the Internet was child pornography, and that since 1997 the number of child pornography images available on the Internet had increased by 1500%.<17>

[BlueIris]

41. Here's a good page of discussion and resources about repressed memories of child sexual abuse:

http://www.jimhopper.com/memory/

[LiberalLoner]

42. Thank you for this link, it's a great one. One thing I had to laugh at was

the part where he was saying, basically, "do you really WANT to recover these memories?" I totally get that. I did not want to remember any of it and if I could, I would flush the memories out of my brain completely. I would rather not remember. I think it is very good advice he gives, to say, hey maybe you don't really want to remember. Maybe there is a reason you repressed the memory in the first place.

[pnwmom]

44. Thank you for this important piece by a highly qualified Harvard researcher.

Elizabeth Loftus certainly has a high profile in the courtroom, but she is NOT the only academic involved in memory research; and the conclusions that many have drawn from her research are incorrect.

[blueamy66]

43. I'm on the fence over this one.

I can see both sides of the coin.

As I was abused and never thought of suing my abuser. Hell, I don't even remember his name.

I am afraid of "repressed" memories being used as evidence in a suit 25 years later. There is way too much room for error.

[LiberalLoner]

45. I'm sorry for what was done to you. Most of us never sue or seek justice. n/t

[LiberalLoner]

46. I never want to see someone who is innocent convicted, either. But I can't help but wish for better

than this for the children who are coming up after us.

[blueamy66]

66. Thank you.

I don't think that I have suffered any ill effects from it. I was not raped, but still sexually abused.

I don't think suing anyone these years later would do anything good for anyone.

[Xithras]

49. I was sexually abused as a child, but I'm also a scientist.

We know, beyond question, that human memory is fairly unreliable in the beginning, and only becomes moreso as time goes on. That's why we have statutes of limitations on crimes, because human recollection becomes questionable, and even useless, as evidence after enough time has progressed.*

I'm against child molesters going free (mine died before he could ever be prosecuted), but our legal system favors the accused, which is as it should be. One innocent person in jail is one too many, or as Blackstone put it, "Better a thousand guilty men go free, than one innocent suffer".

I've heard a few suggestions in recent decades that modern technology may make statutes of limitations moot. The most common suggestion I've heard is to simply impose a cap on witness testimony, but to allow continued prosecutions based on hard physical evidence. Personally, I don't have a problem with that idea.

*There is, of course, a second purpose to statutes of limitations. Prison, in a just society, is supposed to be a deterrent and rehabilitative, and not punishment or retribution. If someone commits a crime, even a serious crime, and then spends the next 20-30 years living as a good member of society, the liberal concept of justice states that deterrence and rehabilitation are not needed for that individual. Pursuing people for crimes committed in a different part of their lives, when their whole way of looking at the world may have been different, is generally counterproductive for society.

[LiberalLoner]

52. Thank you for this. I hadn't thought of this aspect before. I still hope

for some type of justice in front of God, in the afterlife.

But a big part of me thinks that when I get to heaven, God will turn His back on me too.

[Xithras]

53. I doubt that very much

You are not at fault for the things that others have done to you. You are a worthwhile person, even though you had the misfortune to be used by some who are not. I realize that my words mean little, but reading through the posts here, I can't help but feel that you still carry a lot of blame about what happened to you. As someone who has been right there, in your very shoes, please let me give you a suggestion. Find a support group with others who have been through it, and talk to them. Therapists are great tools, and a skilled therapist can do wonders, but the thing that really helped me was finding a group of people I could talk to who KNEW where I was, and who I could honestly open up to without being judged. Eventually, it was those conversations with other survivors that helped me to move past it. Today, it's no longer a major part of my life, and is something I rarely discuss. Not because I'm ashamed of it, but because I realized that the actions of others have no bearing on my personal worth, or the kind of person I want to be.

I truly hope that you someday find some sort of peace with what occurred to you. Not forgiveness, unless that is your choice, but the peace of knowing that your abusers attempt to make you a lifelong victim failed.

[LiberalLoner]

60. Thank you. Your words actually mean very much to me. All the words on these posts have

affected me very deeply, for good or bad.

I've been in therapy for many years, including in-patient therapy, but it's hard for me to even understand the idea of putting this behind me and forgetting about it when I know there are still children being abused every day. I think I could be at peace if I thought things were getting better in the world, but I think they are getting worse, instead.

I just don't see how I could ever be at peace with all of this. I think there isn't any getting over this, any more than the vets I see at Walter Reed can just grow a new limb to replace the lost one.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

55. Your post deserves a recommendation all by itself.

And allow me to celebrate and congratulate you for having overcome and developed a solid, rational mind.

There is, of course, a second purpose to statutes of limitations. Prison, in a just society, is supposed to be a deterrent and rehabilitative, and not punishment or retribution. If someone commits a crime, even a serious crime, and then spends the next 20-30 years living as a good member of society, the liberal concept of justice states that deterrence and rehabilitation are not needed for that individual. Pursuing people for crimes committed in a different part of their lives, when their whole way of looking at the world may have been different, is generally counterproductive for society.

Please DO use that paragraph liberally. It will make punishists' heads explode in a fireball of rage and make Nordic Baby Jesus cry, which are of course very desirable outcomes.

[Silent3]

58. +1 n/t

[fishwax]

158. good post n/t

[sakabatou]

56. WTF, Ohio?!

[Critters2]

57. I tried suing a therapist who convinced me I had repressed memories of abuse.

What a quack. You know what, according to him, was the strongest evidence that I'd been abused? The fact that I strongly denied that I had been. How's that for logic? Yet, I went along with it for a while, because he was supposed to be an expert. I finally saw it for the ruse it was. Everytime I'd be doing fine and want to quit therapy, he'd see something in my behavior that meant we had to deal with more memories. The man was nothing more than a glorified phone psychic, whose job was to keep me on the line...at $150 an hour, billed to insurance.

I tried to sue. Guess why I couldn't. The statute of limitations. His lawyer found in his notes the first time I said I didn't think I'd been abused. I had something like 4 years from that point to sue him for malpractice. I didn't file soon enough.

So, he's still practicing and teaching students the fine art of quackery at the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign. I did file a complaint with the Illinois Dept of Professional Regulation, which got him some kind of slap on the wrist. That was mildly satisfying.

Repressed memories is bullshit. Really lucrative bullshit.

[LiberalLoner]

59. That sucks. I'm sorry that happened to you. It is a shame that this happens, both for

the victims like you and victims like those who were falsely sued, but also for people like me who have PTSD and dissociated during much of the abuse. Because of terrible, wrong things like this, people like me are scorned and disbelieved. In fact many people believe child sexual abuse only happens to, say, one in a million children, when it is far more common unfortunately than that.

[pnwmom]

91. What happened to you is deplorable.

On the other hand, a large body of memory research show that recovered memories are as reliable as continuous memories. Both may be true, both may be false. That is why we need other evidence besides a person's claim.


http://www.jimhopper.com/memory /

For example:

Scheflin, A. W., & Brown, D. Repressed memory or dissociative amnesia: What the science says.

Abstract: "Legal actions of alleged abuse victims based on recovered memories of childhood sexual abuse (CSA) have been challenged arguing that the concept of repressed memories does not meet a generally accepted standard of science. . . . Studies addressing the accuracy of memories show that recovered memories are no more or no less accurate than continuous memories for abuse.

[pinboy3niner]

67. What is ABSOLUTELY STRIKING . . .

is that people can accept the fact that war veterans with PTSD often suppress war memories as a psychological reaction to horrific and extraordinarily painful events--and yet question the validity of the very same reaction when the trauma survivor is a victim of rape or incest. Absolutely striking . . .

[LiberalLoner]

68. Yes, there seems to be a real hatred or dismissal of rape victims, especially those of us

who were raped repeatedly by family when we were children.

It's been something that I've had a real problem with understanding and dealing with.

[LiberalLoner]

69. But sometimes I see cancer victims blamed for their own illness, as in "you must have

been eating the wrong way" etc. and I never understand that either. In fact it makes me really angry. I guess I just don't think that way. I feel empathy/sympathy for those who suffer instead of blaming them or feeling superior to them.

I guess I am just wired very differently from most people. I'm just weird. shrug.

[pinboy3niner]

70. With cancer victims

it seems more a matter of either not knowing what to say, or of our desire to believe it can't happen to us because we don't engage in whatever causative behavior we're pointing the finger at.

With rape/incest survivors there is clearly some kind of bias operating that discounts their validity and denies their experience (to add insult to injury). In some part, there is an element of misogyny there.

[LiberalLoner]

76. I do have to say that the very first lesson I remember learning in life is that the world

hates women.

I used to think, as a child, that the logical thing for all of us to do would be to commit suicide. I envisioned all women in the world picking a day and killing all female children/babies as well as themselves so that there would only be men remaining in the world. I still fantasize about that frequently actually.

[pinboy3niner]

78. Pinboy's Rule:

Whenever you begin to blame yourself, STOP. That should serve as as a flashing red light warning that you need to re-think, and if blame must be placed, direct it where it ACTUALLY BELONGS. You don't have to allow anyone to victimize you again--EVER.

[LiberalLoner]

79. Is that what I'm doing? I honestly always just thought that would be the ultimate

solution to the problem. Men couldn't harm us anymore, plus men would finally be happy with us out of the way. To be honest, it still seems like a logical solution to me. I don't see where that involves any self-blaming at all, just a recognition of the problem and the only way I can think of to resolve the problem.

[pinboy3niner]

83. Why is the problem your responsibility?

Why should you have to "fix" it--especially in such a sacrificial way? That accepts the notion that your interest is somehow inferior or subordinate. That doesn't seem fair or just.

[LiberalLoner]

86. Oh. I never thought of it that way. I guess it is rather sacrificial. I think I have a hard time

accepting that I'm actually a person. I used to cut myself as a child to watch myself bleed because I wasn't sure I was real, I thought maybe I was a doll or something inanimate.

[The Straight Story]

73. Nicely Said (nt)

[hack89]

71. No one questions that such memories can exists

the issue is that they are simply not reliable enough evidence in a court of law. This woman should not be able to sue someone 20 years after the fact based on recovered memories. How do you prove that they are real - real enough to subject a man to penalties that could ruin his life? If there was any hard evidence to collaborate them, he would have been prosecuted a long time ago.

[pnwmom]

93. No reasonable person, you mean. Several persons here have indicated

that such memories are always false.

[woo me with science]

80. People mix up repressed memory crap with post-traumatic amnesia.

Post-traumatic amnesia is real and very common in veterans. It is PHYSICAL and related to mild (or more severe) brain trauma related to battlefield shock and injuries. People who suffer a mild head injury in a car accident also experience it. They don't necessarily forget they were in the car, but they just don't remember the accident itself. This is physical post-traumatic amnesia. It is not psychological "repression."

Soldiers don't forget they were in the military. They don't forget they were in a war. They aren't like the thousands of women who go into therapy with quacks at age 30 and magically "discover" that they endured years and years of satanic ritual abuse that they never suspected. There is no good scientific evidence for repressing a childhood of savage abuse for psychological reasons.

That being said, we should ALL be concerned about the fate of veterans who are being "treated" now by some of the same quacks who convinced a generation of women that they were victims of ritual abuse. As the pool of people willing to believe in repressed memory has shrunk, many of the "trauma specialists" have shifted to treating veterans, but some of them are still using the discredited techniques that made so many women sicker. Some soldiers are now being TAUGHT that they dissociate and repress just like the satanic ritual abuse "victims" were. This should outrage all of us, that our veterans would be subjected to such malpractice.

The VA hospitals are working hard to make sure that the therapists they hire are working with updated information and actually understand post-traumatic amnesia. Their most recent bulletins have stressed their commitment to evidence-based therapies. However, the system is still infested with the repressed memory believers who find their way through the cracks.

That is why it is extremely important to keep demanding evidence-based care for PTSD and clean the field of these repressed memory quacks. Our veterans deserve better.

[LiberalLoner]

82. Actually I have very marked PTSD from what I went through as a child...

and doctors looking through my records always think I was in combat because of the PTSD diagnosis.

One thing I would caution for people who talk about the repressed memories thing - child abuse DOES happen. Children DO get raped. 20% of all internet porn involves child pornography, according to official sources. That kind of porn is actually a record of a crime being committed.

Just want to say, these things DO happen. Please don't forget that when you are talking about how repressed memories are all B.S.

[pinboy3niner]

98. Psychological suppression of war memories is very real

It has occurred to a lot of vets who who did not experience physical head trauma in combat, and the re-emergence of their memories years or decades later did not involve use of one of those charlatan recovered memory "therapists."

[pnwmom]

115. I don't think "a generation of women" have been fooled by quacks.

I think that a limited number of quacks working with some women have hurt the credibility of other women with very real cases of abuse -- just as false accusers of adult rape hurt real victims of rape.

[fishwax]

159. +1

[pinboy3niner]

161. +100

[FedUpWithIt All]

150. You are quite mistaken. PTSD is not physical shock related. I am sure in battle the two

often go hand in hand but PTSD is not dependent on a physical injury.

I have PTSD from childhood (not related to sex abuse). It is not related to a brain injury. I have enhanced memories during PTSD memory episodes. There is very little difference between PTSD memory repression in a soldier and the repression of the memories of an abused child who develops PTSD.





Definition
By Mayo Clinic staff

Post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) is a type of anxiety disorder that's triggered by a traumatic event. You can develop post-traumatic stress disorder when you experience or witness an event that causes intense fear, helplessness or horror.

http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/post-traumatic-stress-disorder/DS00246

[pnwmom]

166. Thanks for the link. n/t

[pnwmom]

92. Isn't it, though. n/t

[Lilith Velkor]

157. Victim blaming and denial were all the rage during and immediately after Vietnam.

Just saying.

[pinboy3niner]

162. Don't I know it

After I was wounded in VN, I spent 18 months being treated in an army hospital in San Francisco. As I recovered, I had occasion to leave the hospital on pass or convalescent leave.

On my very first pass from the hospital, wearing my uniform--the only clothing I had--I was accosted on a bus by a woman who called me "baby-killer" and a lot of other names. I'd lost half my jaw and teeth, and had a baseball-sized hole in my shoulder, and I was being called those names. I was outraged--but not so much for myself. I could only think of my men, who were still there, still struggling to survive. Counting the days until their "freedom bird" came to take them home. Those good, good men who had volunteered--unanimously--to rappel into a hot firefight to save a wounded officer who was a friend of mine.

Later, studying at a supposedly conservative school--USC--I was belittled and called "stupid" by two profs for going to serve in VN. This was in front of 400 students in an introductory IR class held in a large auditoreum. The funny thing was that I had no memory of that humiliating experience until years later, when I talked to an old friend with whom I had had dinner that very same night. It wasn't until she recounted the story I had told her at the time that my memory of the incident returned.

It took some years, but I forgave that woman, my accoster, long ago. It was the passion of the times, and some in the antiwar movement made the mistake, in their passion, of blaming the troops who were marching off to their own destruction. So, no, I don't blame them. They cared, and tried to make a difference, and tried to save us.

Harder to understand are the revisionists who insist that leftists never spit on veterans, never treated them badly, that that never happened. They may not have seen it happening (much of it was on the west coast, especially at SFO Airport), but they are very much invested in denying the abuses that occurred, and in portraying the antiwar movement as absolutely pure.

As a leftist myself, and antiwar, and on the supposedly truth-based, reality-based side, I acknowledge the truth that mistakes were made, not the least of which was the abuse of the troops by some minority of the movement. It was, like I said, the passion of the times. I've forgiven and forgotten. I wish everyone would.

[pnwmom]

164. It is good to forgive and forget. But not to deny -- and then to expect

others to forgive and forget.

You are a man with a generous heart, pinboy3niner. I hope your life since Vietnam has brought you blessings.

[pinboy3niner]

168. Yes, pnwmom, many blessings

Not power, or wealth, or prestige. My blessings are the wonderful people I am, and have been, privileged to know. And now, I count you among them.

[pnwmom]

170. Good, I'm glad your experiences didn't drag you down.

I'm betting you're an inspiration to many around you.

I'm also glad you're a part of DU and that I met you here. I will count you as a friend, too.

Peace.

:yourock:

[LiberalLoner]

177. Thank you for your service. I'm so sorry what you went through, and sorrier that your service

and sacrifices weren't even appreciated. This was a terrible thing that was done to you and to so many Vietnam vets.

You amaze me. You have been through all of this but you are still alive, and still reaching out to help others instead of turning into a bitter and hateful person.

It's quite a privilege to know you, and to know some others on this list who have posted.

Some of the hateful people who posted have reminded me of just how many sick people are out there. There are actually a larger number of men molesting kids out there than most people want to realize...the one in three girls who get molested by age 18 aren't all being molested by just one or two men, after all...and in this thread I have my suspicions about the character of those who were deliberately hurtful to me. I see those men very clearly for what they are; I am not fooled into thinking they are fine upstanding men.

I go back and forth on this, but today I choose to believe these men will stand before God and be forced to come to terms with what they have done. Sometimes I feel absolute glee that these men must know deep down they will stand before God someday, and have no recourse, no way of lying, no way of attacking the victims, no way of squirming out of justice.

I think I need a break today, I need to stay away from DU for awhile. But I will take the posts that you have made, and An Army Veteran has made, and PNWMOM has made, and let them sustain me. Thank you all.

[McCamy Taylor]

72. Sex offenders should not be in civil court. They should be in criminal court.

How about no statute of limitations on rape of a minor?

[LiberalLoner]

74. I agree with that. I also wish there were more successful programs to identify those who

are being abused, to get them out of those abusive families and into safety.

[Lucian]

81. I don't agree with this ruling.

[TexasObserver]

85. Good. 12 years after age 18 is already too long a statute.

Recovered memories are extremely unreliable and the worse the therapist, the worse the accuracy.

It's a nightmare the horrible grief created by hundreds of therapists nationwide who convinced thousands of citizens they had all been sexually abused by family members.

This case is very simple. There's a statute of limitation and this plaintiff waited three years too long to sue.

[LiberalLoner]

90. Does sexual abuse actually ever happen? Or are all reported cases false? n/t

[TexasObserver]

94. Sexual abuse does happen. We're talking about "recovered memories" though.

There are thousands of Americans who swear up and down they were sexually abused when they weren't, and the reason is they "recovered memories" that some therapist "helped" them "recover."

I'm not going to argue the McMartin case all over again. Look it up and learn that most recovered memory sexual abuse claims are bullshit created by bad therapists.

[pnwmom]

97. Not true. Some claims have proven to be false. But there is no study showing

that most are. There IS a great deal of research that shows that recovered memories are as reliable -- and as faulty -- as continuous memories.

[pnwmom]

95. Recovered memories are actually no less reliable than continuous memories,

according to a great deal of research. Any memories need to be backed up by other evidence in a court situation.

[TexasObserver]

96. Nonsense. "Recovered memories" aren't even memories.

They're stories created by suggestive and leading questions.

[pnwmom]

99. Maybe you should actually read some of the research on the other side.

You've been heavily influenced by the Loftus research (or by her fan club), but there are many other equally respected people working in traumatic memory research -- as opposed to the lab experiments on non-traumatized persons that she does.

http://www.jimhopper.com/memory/#table

University of Washington psychologist Elizabeth Loftus is an accomplished researcher with expertise in eyewitness testimony, particularly how the memories of crime witnesses can be distorted by post-event questioning. Loftus is a prominent spokesperson for the False Memory Syndrome Foundation, and her views have by and large been very well received by the mass media in the United States. Loftus also testifies as an expert witness on the behalf of people accused of child abuse on the basis of recovered memories. She has co-authored a book entitled The Myth of Repressed Memory.
You've probably heard of Dr. Loftus, and seen her quoted approvingly and uncritically in the popular media. No doubt, as reported in the media, she has prevented some wrongly accused people from being unjustly convicted. She has also played a valuable role by bringing attention and accountability to bear on some irresponsible practices by some incompetent therapists. Yet Dr. Loftus has also claimed that recovered memory is a "myth," and that the majority of such memories are false and implanted by therapists.
Unfortunately, thus far reporters and journalists have almost completely failed to critically evaluate her claims. Nor have they addressed three crucial facts about her work:

Loftus herself conducted and published a study in which nearly one in five women who reported childhood sexual abuse also reported completely forgetting the abuse for some period of time and recovering the memory of it later.
Loftus misrepresented the facts of a legal case in a scholarly paper and, after finally apologizing to the victim of her misrepresentations, continued to promote the article with falsehoods. (See Consider the Evidence for Elizabeth Loftus' Scholarship and Accuracy, by Jennifer Hoult, whose case Loftus misrepresented.)
Loftus is aware that those who study traumatic memory have for several years, based on a great deal of research and clinical experience, used the construct of dissociation to account for the majority of recovered memories. However, she continues to focus on and attack "repression" and "repressed memories," which has the effect of confusing and misleading many people.

[LiberalLoner]

102. Well, I know of the McMartin case (what an awful thing) but let me give an example from

my own life. I only very recently remembered something that happened to me literally dozens of times when I was five years old. (Not sexual abuse, just regular life I mean.) My father decided to play a game at dinnertime with me when I was five. The game was that he would load up my plate with more food (sometimes twice as much food as he had!) than I could reasonably eat and if I didn't eat it fast enough for him, he would whip me with the belt that he kept beside him at the table.

I used to eat as fast as I could, almost choking while swallowing, and sometimes he'd make me eat a number of hot peppers too and then deny me water, stuff like that. Anyway most of the time I managed to get all the food down but I almost always ended up throwing it up afterwards, not on purpose but I just could not hold down that much food, my tummy was too small I guess.

I was always really afraid he'd find out that I would throw up because he always threatened me by saying if I threw up he would make me eat the throw up. So I would go to the farthest bathroom in the house to be sick. I was lucky he never caught me.

Anyway I didn't remember that until recently when I was watching a tv program, a documentary that was about obesity etc. and one part of it was about forced feeding of children in Mauritania. Watching the little girl cry and struggle as she was force fed brought the memories back full force.

At first I wasn't sure I was remembering right but I asked my older sister about it and she remembered it very well. So I knew then that my memories were real.

I don't have any idea why I didn't remember before that program. I don't understand it at all, but I'm swearing to you, I'm telling the truth, and if my sister saw it too, I believe it really happened.

[pnwmom]

108. What a nightmare your childhood must have been.

I'm so sorry. I'm glad you have a sister who understands.

[LiberalLoner]

112. Thank you. :) She was the one who remembered that my Mom had written

to my godmother (her close friend) to come stay with us because she was convinced Dad was going to kill her or one of us kids. My Godmother confirmed the story. She stayed with us a month and then told my older sister to sew a pocket in her bra to put a dime in, and the next time he got that violent, to run out of the place with my brother and me and call her and she'd drive down from several states away to come take us somewhere safe.

My Dad was in the Army, Infantry, and an alcoholic, abused horribly as a child, then he had PTSD from Vietnam too so he was really messed up. And so life in our family was a very scary thing.

Mostly I remember just being so scared all the time and treasuring the moments I had by myself, hiding in closets or outdoors.

I never did lose that fear, I wake up afraid all the time and grind my teeth and have bad dreams at night. The worst part of all of it was that I never did stop being afraid.

[pnwmom]

122. I have a friend who is an anxious person, a major worrier.

She woke up one night when she was a teen, to find her mother standing over her with a kitchen knife. Her father ran into the room and pulled the mother out. That was the tipping point -- the mother had had a psychotic break and was put in a hospital. But when she was released, she came home to the kids and the father moved out and got a divorce!

My friend, as I said, is an anxious person. With good reason -- she had a dark cloud hanging over her whole childhood. But she is also loving and compassionate and highly empathic. She availed herself of therapy when she needed it and she's been a wonderful mother to her own child, now a happily married, productive adult. So we don't have to repeat the sins of our parents -- change IS possible.

[LiberalLoner]

124. I'm glad she was able to make a better life and be a good Mom - I chose to never have children

because I didn't trust what was inside of me. I have barely felt capable of getting my own self through life let along taking responsibility for another life.

[LiberalLoner]

125. Can I ask you something?

Do some of the replies on this thread hurt you? To me some of them have felt like slaps in the face. Hard to shake off.

[pinboy3niner]

104. You're assuming that the memories were recovered,

in every case, with the aid of a quack "therapist." That excludes tons of cases of trauma survivors recovering suppressed memories--whether sexual assault or war memories--completely independently, with no quack involved.

[LiberalLoner]

106. Yes, just like in my case with the forced feeding memory that I didn't remember

until just this year! It did happen, my sister confirmed it for me, so I know it did happen. But for some reason I didn't remember it until this year. I don't really know why. Weird.

[pnwmom]

109. Someone in my family told me something I SHOULD have remembered.

So I did some mental "relaxation exercises" and told myself to remember . . . and what I recalled then was being curled up on my bed with my hands over my ears, while I was humming -- so I wouldn't hear what I didn't want to hear. That's all I've ever remembered -- deliberately trying to block something out.

[LiberalLoner]

111. We're good at surviving, aren't we? Sounds like your childhood wasn't so great either :( I'm sorry

[pnwmom]

113. Unfortunately, angry unhappy people are just as fertile as everyone else.

And they often take out their misery on their kids.

[LiberalLoner]

114. Yeah. :( No license required to reproduce. And nobody cares what you do to your own kids since

you "own" them after all.

[AnArmyVeteran]

171. I suggest you educate yourself on the facts & reality of repressed & recovered memories...

I was sexually abused an a child and when I was abused by the same person by being swindled, it triggered a flood of memories of thoughts I used to have when I was a very young child. People with PTSD experience similar 'triggers' which can lead to tragic results. I suggest you at least attempt to inform yourself before making statements that are totally untrue. BTW, I've heard people on the right constantly attack all science, psychology and are clueless about human behavior. I also suggest you go to a meeting where you are in a room full of victims of abuse who experienced repressed or recovered memories. Perhaps then will you might acquire some compassion and empathy that seems to be totally lacking in your post.

[pinboy3niner]

195. Hey, AnArmyVeteran

I'm sorry you were subjected to that abuse. If there is one positive thing that can come from your trauma, it is your ability to educate and inform others, and to debunk the BS that is spewed by the ignorant and empathy-challenged. Thanks for being here.

[TK421]

88. Well, it is a bullshit rule that needs further looking into n/t

[woo me with science]

101. This is very good news.

This woman was harmed by the repressed memory charlatans in our mental health system. They are the ones who should pay.

[LiberalLoner]

105. I don't know for sure...I mean, what if she really did go through abuse, what if she just

wasn't healthy enough to acknowleldge to herself until just recently, how she was harmed? It takes a long time to try to get your head on straight after you've been abused by your family for years. I never did get the courage to confront my abusers in court. I mean I think if she was abused horribly for years, it was a terrible thing that happened to her and I feel bad for her.

On the other hand, I don't support charlatans and don't want people to be wrongly prosecuted.

[LiberalLoner]

107. You know what I heard about, that I think is really a cool discovery? I read

that they can do scans now and actually SEE the physical damage that is caused to brains by extensive childhood trauma, like grooves carved into stone almost.

It kind of tickles me that there is this visible, permanent record of the harm done. I wonder if that will ever be used as corroborating evidence in court? Probably not, because the trauma could have come from so many different possible sources.

[pnwmom]

110. How do you know that? How do you know she didn't recall the abuse on her own?

Her recovered memory is just as likely to be correct as any other memory . . . and just as likely to be faulty. Whether or not a court should believe her would depend on the totality of the evidence.

[Jennicut]

118. I only had one incident of being molested as a child (by a family friend) and the memories

were not clear until I was at least a teenager and then became really clear as an adult. It does take time to come to terms with those types of memories. If it as an ongoing type of abuse, I think the more likely the victim is to try and repress it. Now, there are cases where people have false memories. But not being allowed to sue in the first place to me is just not a good thing.

[LiberalLoner]

120. I'm so sorry for what happened to you. Thank you for sharing and trying to get people

to understand a little better. I think some people have a hard time understanding this. I think there are some others that just don't WANT to understand about this.

[LiberalLoner]

121. I think part of what bugs me about this whole case is the idea that if you can just

abuse a kid badly enough that he or she takes forever to get up the strength to tell the truth, then you get off scot-free. It feels like a free pass to rape kids.

And from what I've read, the conviction rate of offenders is so incredibly low, it's really the safest crime anyone can commit. Andrew Vachhs wrote about that - I may have mispelled his last name. He said that there's really very little risk involved in raping your own children, that as a society we kind of wink and look away.

He has been trying to fight to change laws and to make people more aware of how abuse harms the kids and really harms all of society when the kids grow up to be dysfunctional as adults.

[Jennicut]

133. I have also worked with sexually abused children (have a Psych degree).

The damage done is beyond anything I can describe. Imagine a 7 year old wanting to hang themselves with their bedsheets in their room (it was a group home for boys). He had to be put on suicide watch. Reading the case files on these kids was incredibly hard. The lack of trust toward others, the acting out, and yes...some tried to abuse other kids at the home and we had to keep a VERY watchful eye on the kids. And many of the abusers were the kids own parents and family members. These were just the kids that had been taken out of homes for known abuse and neglect. There are kids out there that suffer everyday because they are too scared or mentally messed up to speak out. I think the one memory that will always stay with me is a 10 year old trying to kiss me while we were in the tv room at the home. This was about 10 years ago...I was 23 and just out of college. Very, very sad situation as obviously he just thought this was normal behavior. I wonder about those kids as they would be adults now. Just very sad. My situation just seemed so small and easy to deal with in comparison.

[LiberalLoner]

146. Oh, man, bless you for dealing with all of that and trying to help them. I'm hoping the after life

is better than what we see here on earth.

[pinboy3niner]

160. LiberalLoner, you deserve better here on earth

I am very sorry for your horrible experience, and for the continuing trauma that is its aftermath. I don't know how many times one needs to hear, "It's not your fault" before being able to internalize it, so allow me to join the others in saying: It's not your fault. Not the years of abuse, and not the extraordinary difficulty and challenge of going on, of living every day of your life with PTSD as a trauma survivor.

You've experienced some very hurtful--and even ugly--encounters in this discussion, but you've also had strong expressions of support and sympathy. When you're tempted to be discouraged, look back at posts from pnwmom and others of us who "get it"--and understand that though it may feel like it at times, you are not alone.

I've tried to avoid introducing my personal experience with PTSD here. But if there is a chance that it my do some good, I feel obligated to put my reservations aside. (I'll never forget the epilogue of the movie, "Platoon": "Those of us who DID make it have an obligation to build again . . . to teach to others what we know . . . and to try, with what's left of OUR lives, to find the goodness, and meaning, to this life.")

Like your dad, I was combat infantry in Vietnam. I suppressed my war experience for 16 years. I couldn't think about it, and I couldn't talk about it--not even with my little brother, who'd been there with me. I avoided other vets.

After 16 years, I had a dramatic catharsis--an epiphany--and all my suppressed memories came flooding back, very intensely, for two months. And while it was happening, I cried every single day.

I should point out that my recovered memories had nothing to do with atrocities. I never committed or witnessed war crimes. My traumatic experiences were the ordinary, everyday events of war. And they were complicated by overwhelming feelings of grief, and undeserved guilt--something that, I'm convinced, are powerful factors in memory suppression.

In another context, the Supreme Court recognized the concept of "redeeming social value". PTSD affects veterans of every war, but mental health professionals identified a sudden, delayed explosion of psychological trauma among Vietnam vets. My own view is that this is partly due to the fact that that VN was unique in that, WWII vets stopped a monster and saved the world, and Korean vets at least preserved the parallel and the political integrity and freedom of South Korea. VN vets couldn't say that. We fought a war with no redeeming social value. It's much easier to accept the loss of friends and comrades, and your own sacrifice and physical deficits of your wounds, if you can can feel that the sacrifices were necessary, that they achieved something of value. If it was meaningless, all for nothing, it is infinitely harder to bear the human consequences--your comrades, the civilians caught in the middle, the "enemy". How do you go on living in a world where such carnage, on such a vast scale, can happen for no reason?

After 20 years, my medic from Vietnam found me, and, together, we found others who'd been there with us. Every single one of those men corroborated my "recovered memories".

LiberalLoner, in sharing your painful experience here, you've exposed yourself and made yourself vulnerable, and in return, you've been subjected to hurtful comments. But you've also allowed many of us to understand your experience, and to care about you. Out of sincere caring and concern for you, I suggest that your experience here, in this discussion, is something that's important for you to discuss with your therapist. I'd hate to think of you being overwhelmed by negative feelings about this. You don't deserve to be victimized again by the ignorant, the uninformed, the insensitive. It is possible for trauma survivors to manage their PTSD, and to go on.

Love & Peace, pinboy3niner

[pnwmom]

163. +1000 Thank you, pinboy3niner. This post deserves a thread of its own.

Your words are an important reminder to all of us that Vietnam vets are still struggling with the aftermath of the war, and no doubt always will -- and that we're growing a new generation now of Iraq and Afghan vets who will carry that burden for the rest of their lives.

If there is any good that has come from your suffering, or that of Liberalloner, it is that you both are such empathic people now. Rather than letting your struggle turn you permanently inwards, you allow yourself to feel even more connected to those you see in pain around you. I salute you both!

[RainDog]

190. great post. I have also been dx'd with ptsd

I'm not a combat veteran.

people seem to think that only combat veterans have ptsd but this just isn't true. their cases are commented on and studied the most b/c they are a "control" group within a system of care that makes it possible to follow a large number of cases in a therapeutic environment.

but, as you and others here, most courageously, LiberalLoner, have pointed out, dissociative amnesia is real. it exists. there are people here on DU who have dealt with it and continue to deal with it.

ptsd is like an attack on your emotional immune system that leaves you more vulnerable in the face of other trauma. your body reacts to things in ways that have everything to do with the initial trauma, even when you try to leave it behind.

[LiberalLoner]

200. Oh, I'm so sorry you have PTSD too. That means you have suffered a lot. I'm sorry. n/t

[Name removed]

172. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LiberalLoner]

176. I don't wonder about it; I'm convinced of it. n/t

[LiberalLoner]

178. +1000, dear friend. Thank you. n/t

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

189. The battle in this thread is predicated on a concepts of respect and autonomy

It is very difficult to question a personal claim without being dismissive of the claimant.

In our social interactions to say, "Though you remember something doesn't mean it is true" parses to "you are crazy or lying."

Yet no informed person thinks that all memories are accurate or even of real events.

Everyone reading this probably knows that eye-witness testimony is about the least reliable evidence offered in trials. It is down-right comical how bad eye-witness accounts are in every psychological study of the question.

Yet eye-witness testimony is the evidence MOST credited by jurors. And usually based on an assessment of the sanity, honesty and goodness of the witness.

Every week DNA frees someone who has served 20-30 years based on eye-witness testimony and I will suggest that very, very little of that erroneous eye-witness testimony was intentional lying. Or that the bad-witnesses were even unusually unreliable people. (Or less honest, sane or good than the average person.)

What we know is true in the abstract we reject in the specific. I consider myself an honest and unusually reliable person and if I say something and you contradict it based on a presumption of my unreliability I will take it as a personal insult.

Yet I know for absolute certain that three of my five most vivid early childhood memories are implanted from hearing parents and siblings tell me stories of what I experienced. (My vivid memories of those three events occur in a neighborhood I wouldn't move to until a year after the events!)

This stuff is complex and almost impossible to separate from concepts of pride, respect and autonomy.

Hence the battle has raged, rages and will continue to rage.

[lumberjack_jeff]

198. Well said. +1 n/t

[pnwmom]

211. I don't think it is difficult to talk about the issue of recovered/repressed

memories in a respectful way, and there are plenty of instances of it on this thread.

There are also plenty of instances of thoughtless, rude and/or personal attacks.

I assume you are referring to the type of memory research Elizabeth Loftus has been doing as what "everyone knows." However, there are many equally qualified (if less media savvy) researchers who are working in the field of post traumatic memory research (as opposed to non-traumatic memory in a laboratory setting.) They offer a very different point of view. Here's a compilation of some of the research by a Harvard researcher.

http://www.jimhopper.com/memory/

[TexasObserver]

213. You covered it well.

The sad truth is that if the therapist (or any questioner) is not careful, they create a story by their questioning. Some individuals are easily influenced and easily manipulated with suggestions. If hypnosis or "truth" drugs are used, the opportunity for planted memories goes up.

People can believe in implanted memories more completely than they believe real memories, largely because real memory is often incomplete and/or fuzzy. All those people who went to prison on eye witness testimony which DNA later proved mistaken are a testament to the ease with which witnesses can be convinced they saw a person do something. Once a person concludes that something happened as suggested, the quick drying concrete of a new memory follows rapidly.

The issue is not whether child abuse occurs or whether the memory of it is often repressed. The issue is the reliability of such memories when they appear to be gained in therapy after much direction and influence by someone who may or may know what they're doing.

[Odin2005]

214. "Repressed Momories" is PROVEN TO BE QUACKERY.

And everyone who pushes this shit is slapping actual rape and abuse victims in the face! :grr:

[AnArmyVeteran]

217. You have no idea what you're talking about. Are you a victim?

Until you are a traumatized victim who shuts down emotionally and has had your life stolen from you because you were savagely abused it is best you remain silent, or remove all doubt of your ignorance on this subject.

[Odin2005]

219. Those people are guilty of being manipulated by unscrupulous shrinks.

I say we charge the shrinks with rape since they put the false memories in the people's heads and traumatizing them in the process. A huge amount of research has been done on this ever since the "Satanic Child Abuse" nonsense, people can be very easily lead to "remember" things that never happened.

I have a friend who is a rape survivor and I have been one of the most outspoken defender of rape victims on this forum because of that. How DARE you insinuate that I am dismissive of rape and sexual abuse!

[pinboy3niner]

222. I believe you're sincere and well-intentioned, Odin

But you've allowed your thinking to be colored by the awful exploitation of victims by the "recovered memory" industy. The fact that those charlatan "therapists" are bad actors invalidates only their behavior--not the concept of memories being psychologically suppressed for years or decades before being recalled.

I also am very skeptical of any recall story brought forward by one of those phony therapists. But please consider that there are many of us who NEVER saw a therapist, yet we experienced, independently, recall of memories of traumatic experience that were suppressed for years.

(Ed.: typo)

[Odin2005]

223. Point taken.

:hi:

[pnwmom]

221. There have been a few cases of quackery; but research has shown clearly

that the phenomenon of repressed (or forgotten) and later recovered memories is actually quite real among many traumatized patients.

The self-promoting work of Dr. Elizabeth Loftus -- and her paid courtroom testimony -- is often pointed to by those who deny the existence of repressed memories, but even SHE doesn't make that claim. She has designed lab experiments that show the ability of researchers to implant false memories in their subjects.

Many other researchers work with patients who have undergone various sorts of trauma, and have trauma-associated amnesia as a result. Their research shows that a significant portion of traumatized patients experience amnesia related to their trauma, but when they recover their memories, those memories are as reliable as those who have had continuous memories.

The few cases of quackery hurt real victims of trauma (with repressed and recovered memories) in the same way that false rape accusers hurt real rape victims: people like you discount the reports of real victims because of the few false claims.


This Harvard researcher has put together a compilation of research on the subject.

http://www.jimhopper.com/memory/

"Amnesia for childhood sexual abuse is a condition.

The existence of this condition is beyond dispute.


Repression is merely one explanation

– often a confusing and misleading one –

for what causes the condition of amnesia.


At least 10% of people sexually abused in childhood

will have periods of complete amnesia for their abuse,

followed by experiences of delayed recall."

[LeftishBrit]

225. There are two separate issues here

One is the 'statute of limitations' issue; one is the repressed memory issue.

The idea of 'repressed memories' that can be recovered, especially after a very long period, is highly questionable. Extreme stress or trauma *can* lead to failures in memory formation in the brain, and thus to permanent amnesia for an event or period of time - but recovering such memories long afterwards is as unlikely as 'recovering' memories that failed to form because of a brain concussion. In both cases, the memory is not repressed; it is not laid down properly in the first place.

Memory in general can be unreliable, especially for long-ago events. Many people think they remember something from their early childhood, when in fact they've just been told about it, or seen a photograph. Studies show that children and even adults can sometimes be convinced by another person, especially an authority figure, that they remember something that in fact did not happen at all. 'Leading questions' in court can sometimes lead to false evidence from people who don't intend to perjure themselves, but are really convinced that things must have happened in the way that the questioner suggests. And some therapists have convinced patients of 'repressed memories' in a similar way.

However, the statute of limitations is another matter. Many children do fail to report sexual abuse, because they are afraid to, or think that they deserve the abuse, or that it must be a normal part of life, or just don't think that it's possible to report it. It may be a long time, sometimes well into adulthood, before they feel able to report it, or accept that they are victims of a crime that they didn't deserve. And I think that they should be able to report it at *any* time, and people should be prosecuted if there is real evidence of their committing sexual abuse, however long ago it was.

So I don't think that the time when a 'recovered memory' supposedly emerged should be the aspect taken into account; but I don't think that there should be a statue of limitations on sexual abuse *at all*.