I am FLABBERGASTED, speechless, wore out ( help )

[imurhuckleberry]

I argued with this person all morning that discrimination in this country against Christians and the American flag were completely unfounded and merely by their taking a few isolated incidents, none of them proved it was running rampant as they want to suggest.

Re: "In the US the only religion that is discriminated against is Christianity and the only flag that is not respected is the American flag."

I told this person "Jefferson, who drafted the Declaration of Independence was a Deist and removed all mentions of the divinity of Jesus Christ and affirmed that the First Amendment create a separation of church and state" AND "James Madison who was the principal author of the Constitution (he was also a Deist). Now, look up the establishment clause."

And this is the reply I get:

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You mentioned Thomas Jefferson and Madison as being deist, perhaps you should read the following. They did not find American alone. As far as your picture on Bush and the Saudi Prince, it's only a picture. I need details to see what's going on. People can do amazing things with pictures. Is it real or not?


The Founders As Christians:

http://www.wallbuilders.com/libissuesarticles.asp?id=78

http://www.wallbuilders.com/LIBissuesArticles.asp?id=22345

http://www.wallbuilders.com/libissuesarticles.asp?id=90

http://www.wallbuilders.com/libissuesarticles.asp?id=121

'Jefferson was not the only President to attend church at the Capitol. His successor, James Madison, also attended church at the Capitol.' - Abijah Bigelow to Hannah Bigleow, December 28, 1812. 'Letters of Abijah Bigleow, Member of Congress, to his Wife,' Proceedings, 1810-1815, American Antiquarian Society (1930), p. 168.

'The doctrines of Jesus are simple, and tend all to the happiness of mankind.' - Thomas Jefferson

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Walbuilders?

Is this part of the Conservapedia Group or something different?

And to top it off, this persons screen name is oldUS.

The problem I have is that I am just not a wordsmith capable of succinctly putting this person in their place in a short and orderly fashion. "short and orderly fashion" being the keywords.

Anyone volunteer to help me out here?

[Frances]

1. I am no expert but as I recall Jefferson thought

that Jesus's teachings were good, but he did not accept the divinity of Jesus.

Personally, I don't know how the tea baggers square their philosophy with that of Jesus. For example, how do they interpret the parable of the Good Samaritan? I think it's the exact opposite of the parable.

[Enthusiast]

3. We shouldn't care what the Teabaggers say

but with the M$M giving credence to their every proclamation we have to.

[imurhuckleberry]

7. Exactly, and it gets exasperating when they aren't that many that post to shut them up.

Like I said , I tired.

[imurhuckleberry]

5. Yea, ok, I'll start with that. They questioned the picture of Bush kissing

Saudi Arabia's Crown Prince Abdullah I showed them when I asked them about their one example of a Christmas show and the kids sang songs in praise of Allah', and why if Bush didn't find Sunni Muslims a problem, why are they? As usual they suggested it was photo shopped.

I have 3 more in my arsenal to show them now from MSN, MSNBC and Google. Arguing photo shopping is NOT a problem. :)

Thanks for your reply!

[Enthusiast]

2. Their talking points are just

ridiculous. There's a Christian church on practically every street corner. They have NO legitimate argument but that never stopped them from spewing.

[underpants]

8. Right wing radio is geared to angry white guys and to playing victim

and to convincing the angry white guy to follow them out of the wilderness

Palin is just that but she is hot.

[imurhuckleberry]

9. Precisely what I said. And Mega Churches in what used to be corn fields and hay fields. n/t

[Enthusiast]

19. Like in Central Ohio.

It's like plague of mega-churches. Like they are being abused, give me strength.

[patrice]

21. and Kansas - !!!

[The Magistrate]

4. In Those Days, Ma'am, Gentlemen Made Pious Remarks In Public Like They Wore Wigs And Breeches

None of these things cited alter the fact of Deism, which was the common view of educated persons. It is not an atheistic or even non-Christian view, holding that a god created the universe, and did so in a way that it ran itself without need of continuous divine supervision. Terms like 'divine providence' expressed the marvel of just how detailed this divinely ordained natural course could be, particularly when it worked out to the benefit of the man uttering the words.

Mr. Jefferson certainly approved of 'the doctrines of Jesus'; he just as certainly did not think them what was taught and 'churched' as Christianity, and he spent a good deal of intellectual effort seeking to disentangle Jesus Christ from the religion of Christianity, going so far as to privately prepare 'the Jefferson Bible', consisting of a New Testament edited to include only the words directly attributed to the Christ, without miracles and a good deal of other things he considered tares among the wheat....

The Wallbuilders are Dominionist loons, and anyone who cited them is probably past reason, and certainly has neither the slightest interest in the truth, nor the least capacity to perceive it.

[underpants]

11. Great post.

The Jefferson Bible is a must read.

Jesus is also in the Koran-he is A prophet not THE prophet.

[patrice]

17. as usual for the M and, yes, I'll second that motion! nt

[patrice]

6. There is an add on the DU front page advertising a book about The Bible which might be of interest

to your "Christian".

The gist is: the Greek source documents which form the basis of The Bible, when they were discovered, were found to be a completely unique form of Greek never seen before, translations were made, and subsequently became part of The Bible, without any linguistic context for the unique aspects of this particular form of Greek. Other Greek documents of the same type of Greek as these Biblical source documents were found several decades later and comparative linguistics scholars can now compare the varients on the original Greek semantics that were introduced into, and to this day continue to be a part of, "The Bible".

Just as an aside, think of all of the different translations of The Bible that you've seen. Do the different connotations and denotations mean something or not?

Also, consider what this means in one example: the (lost Greek) understanding that "The just will live because of his (the Christ's) faithfulness" (Habakkuk 2:4) compared to Martin Luther's translation "The just will live by faith."

IOW, your "Christian" may not be who/what -ever s/he thinks s/he is.

[Maat]

10. Go to www.au.org - you will find all of the information you need.

This is the site of Americans United for Separation of Church and State. I've been a member and monthly donor for years.

[Motown_Johnny]

12. you can always point out how their side fights the things Jesus would have liked

Help for the poor

Medicine for the sick


etc etc etc



Maybe just send him this without any commentary at all



http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2025&version=NIV


^snip^

From the book of Matthew


The Sheep and the Goats


31"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. 32All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
34"Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'

37"Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'

40"The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'

41"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'

44"They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?'

45"He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'

46"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

[ipaint]

13. Although it won't change anything, what they believe doesn't require any fact to back it up

you could sent them here:

http://monotheism.us/

Keep in mind many of the founding father quotes fundies come up with are phony. They make them up because anything with quotation marks around it is official to them. No source required.

Lots of info here:

http://www.liarsforjesus.com/

[EFerrari]

14. You might point out to this individual that Thomas Jefferson did not discover America at all.

lol

[patrice]

15. Re: "did not find America alone", neither did his/her Tory idols and, without very specific

forms of comparative primary source support, his claims against Jefferson are as un-justified as any other postulate.

[imurhuckleberry]

16. THANK YOU EVERY ONE FOR YOUR RESPONSES AND HELP !!!

Off to work I go.

Thanks again!

:yourock:



~~PEACE~~

[cornermouse]

18. wallbuilders.

The more incriminating article if you read the whole thing.

http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=David_Barton

David Barton is a little known Texan Christian Right activitist and founder of Wallbuilders. Barton was hired by the RNC as a political consultant and by November 2004, for U.S. presidential election, 2004, had traveled the country and spoken "at about 300 RNC-sponsored lunches for local evangelical pastors." During the "lunches," Barton presented "a slide show of American monuments," discussed his view of "America’s Christian heritage," and told "pastors that they are allowed to endorse political candidates from the pulpit." <1>

Described as a "Christian historical revisionist," Barton is attributed with not only authoring the following quotes which "the culture warriors of the Religious Right never tire of repeating ... ad infinitum and ad nauseam, ..." <2>

* "The United States of America are a Christian Nation."
* "The founding fathers were evangelical Christians."
* "Church-state separation is a liberal myth."

but is also credited with making up supporting quotes, "such as the following one that is completely bogus, but still circulating in Christian Right circles."

* "We have staked the whole future of American civilization, not upon the power of government, far from it. We have staked the future of all of our political institutions upon the capacity of each and all of us to govern ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God." --fictional quote attributed to James Madison...
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http://mediamatters.org/mmtv/200511140011
Conservative activist Barton: Are American children poor "because they only have two TVs instead of three?"

On the November 9 broadcast of the nationally syndicated radio show Janet Parshall's America, conservative and religious activist David Barton, founder and president of WallBuilders, a "national pro-family organization" that, according to its website, "seeks ... to rebuild that which makes America strong -- its constitutional, moral, and religious foundations," questioned the statistic that "one out of five American kids live in poverty," asking, "Is that because they only have two TVs instead of three?" Barton further challenged the impact of child poverty, asking host Janet Parshall, "hen's the last time an American kid died of malnutrition?"

According to Columbia University's National Center for Children in Poverty, of the approximately 70 million children in the United States, roughly 27 million live in low-income families. In 2004, 17.6 percent of households with children under 18 reported food insecurity, which the Economic Research Service of the Department of Agriculture defines as "limited or uncertain availability of nutritionally adequate and safe foods or limited or uncertain ability to acquire acceptable foods in socially acceptable ways."
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http://www.rightwingwatch.org/content/wallbuilders
... * WallBuilders bills itself as an "organization dedicated to presenting America's forgotten history and heroes, with an emphasis on the moral, religious, and constitutional foundation on which America was built—a foundation which, in recent years, has been seriously attacked and undermined."
* WallBuilders' mission consists of "(1) educating the nation concerning the Godly foundation of our country; (2) providing information to federal, state, and local officials as they develop public policies which reflect Biblical values; and (3) encouraging Christians to be involved in the civic arena."
* In this capacity, David Barton has established himself as the Right's pre-eminent "historian" on the religious views of the Founding Fathers and their desire to establish a nation founded on Christian principles....

[Historic NY]

20. Ah they are quoting wills, most likely drafted by someone else in a common format from the period...