The anti-immigration movement is about racism and blaming the working class

[Ardent15]

Those two things are at the heart of the anti-immigration movement.

It has nothing to do with legal or illegal immigration, nothing to do with "looking out for the American taxpayers", nothing to do with "they're taking our jobs", or "they're a burden on the system". Those are just excuses to justify the racism and class warfare that is at the heart of this whole debate.

No, it is once again, the ruling class looking for a scapegoat to divide the working class, and they (the ruling class) have succeeded in riling up the fear and racial anxieties that are in so many people.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

1. It's the modern equivalent of the southern strategy.

The RW wants to win in November. They feel they can do so by riling up racist whtie people.

Just like always.

[el_bryanto]

2. OK. But the problem is that they are pointing to a real problem

It is one thing to say that Republicans are working to hoodwink their base using racial fears; I'd agree with that. If they were really interested in solving this problem they'd be trying to solve it.

That said I still think we should do something about our relatively open boarders because they are a danger both to us (things besides honest hardworking workers could cross open boarders) and a danger to those illegal aliens (they are preyed upon both by american businesses and the criminal enterprises that smuggle them across).

Bryant

[William Z. Foster]

6. no, that is the basic error

There is no "problem." This is classic right wing tactics - make up a problem and get people all worked up over it, and then get them to accept extreme "solutions."

All of the problems are being caused by the anti-immigrant hysteria, the anti-immigrant hysteria is not solving or addressing any problem. The anti-immigrant hysteria IS the problem.

[el_bryanto]

9. There is no problem with open boarders?

There are no illegal immigrants?

Really?

That's certainly upbeat.

Your namesake by the way was a very energetic writer.

Bryant

[William Z. Foster]

16. I like open boarders

When people stay with me, I like to hear what they are up to and how they are feeling.

"illegal immigrants" is like saying "illegal pedestrians" because some people jaywalk. Actually, jaywalking is probably more serious, come to think about it.

There are far fewer problems with open than with closed borders, yes, and whatever problems arise are much easier to deal with.

[el_bryanto]

22. That's your opinion - but you are far from in the majority.

And it's not just us Americans who disagree with you - look at nations around the world and how they handle boarders.

[Ardent15]

24. Who cares if he's not in the majority?

Look at movements for social justice around the globe, they were created by active MINORITIES.

Are you to say that since Hispanics or blacks are minorities, that their opinions aren't worth anything?

[el_bryanto]

31. oh that's fucking priceless isn't it?

Yep - that's exactly what I'm saying. Blacks and Hispanics opinions aren't worth anything! Mark that down, boyo. You got me.

Actually no - because this is a policy question, his opinion, that we should have completely open boarders, would be strengthened if he could point to nations who had tried it successfully. But most nations of the world, have favored no immigration (which is bad policy in my mind) or limited and controlled immigration (which is good policy in my mind (although I think right now our immigration laws are too restrictive, and should be both simplified and expanded so as to allow more legal immigration)).

Bryant

[William Z. Foster]

39. you are saying that

You are applying two different standards for people.

Even were you not, regardless of your imagined rationale, you are lending aid and comfort to an extremely racist social movement.

I think it is more dangerous when Democrats do this than it is when the white supremacy groups do it, because progressives and liberals give the hateful and dangerous mob legitimacy and support they would not otherwise have.

There are two sides to this issue, roughly, when it comes to policy:

- The laws "..should be both simplified and expanded..." which you say you support.

- The anti-immigrant movement, leading to God knows what sort of horrible laws that will harm all of us.

The "completely open borders" stuff you keep saying is a fear mongering trick the right wingers invented. Please stop using it.

Open borders means more security and safety and more effective law enforcement, not less as you are suggesting.

[el_bryanto]

42. I will note that it is a weakness of your position how quickly you jump to scold

me for my supposed racism. Presumably if your position were stronger, if you could point to a number of countries with open boarders and how well things were working out for them, you wouldn't feel the need to do that.

I may have misunderstood you - I took you to mean that you favored open immigration; anybody who gets to America can live her as long as they like. I don't think that works.

Bryant

[William Z. Foster]

43. it is not about you

Is the anti-immigrant movement racist, or is it not?

Are you lending it support, or are you not?

The idea that total anarchy is the only alternative to a police state cannot be taken seriously.

[el_bryanto]

46. well maybe you should try being more clear in your argument

By like actually saying what sort of path to citizenship you envision for people who come to this country.

Much of the anti immigration movement is racist and by agreeing that illegal immigration is a problem I am lending it support.

You can find some very ugly people supporting almost any position.

Bryant

[William Z. Foster]

49. politics is not about individuals

The libertarian propaganda has sure done damage to the political discourse.

I do not say that there are some ugly people supporting the anti-immigrant movement, I said the anti-immigrant movement is racist.

I am not making an argument, or trying to sell you on anything, I am responding to your argument. That is solely for the benefit of others reading this thread.

[el_bryanto]

52. I disagree with the premise then

The idea of closed borders and enforcing border security is not racist. If your position is that having regulated borders is racist than I disagree with you. As the laws are currently written we have a number of people who are residing in the country illegally - they are illegal aliens or illegal immigrants or whatever term you prefer to use. It is not racist to think that having people reside in the country illegally is a problem.

Many people who support this movement (which you label anti-immigrant, but which should be more broadly defined as immigration reform) are racists.

Discussions are about individuals and we are having a discussion.

I am curious about that last line; you are making it clear that you are not discussing this with me? Or what?

Bryant

[William Z. Foster]

56. take some time and read before posting

I did not say that "closed borders and enforcing border security" is racist, necessarily.

I said the anti-immigrant movement is racist.

I did not say discussions were not about individuals, I said that politics is not.

I did not say that I was not talking to you, I said that we were not talking about you, nor about any others as individuals.

It is inconsistent with the principles of human rights to think that it is possible for a person to be "residing" and to be somehow breaking the law by doing that. It is not, and can never be, illegal to "reside" - live, in other words. If some are living illegally, then the only way to "catch" them would be for the government to force all of us to prove that we do have a right to live upon demand by law enforcement. That is a police state, the very essence of a police state.

[treestar]

48. this country was built on immigration and it became the leader of the

free world. It's the greatest country in the world, anyone who is against open borders would have had us be a little tinpot nation obsessed with which individuals were here and who had the "right" to be here.

Great countries get immigrants. Crappy countries don't. I'll live in a great one, thank you. I don't care of the borders are open. They were when my ancestors got here.

North Korea has closed borders. Saudi Arabia has closed borders. I'll pass.

[pampango]

59. In Europe there are 30 countries that have open borders with each other. They are very progressive

countries compared to the US, so you could say that they have tried an open borders policy "successfully".

[William Z. Foster]

34. that is true, and frightening

There is one ugly mob forming, that's for sure. This will not go well.

It is "borders" not "boarders."

Sane, progressive countries have one borders. That allows law enforcement to focus available resources on the real problems and dangers.

Before WWI all of Europe was open borders. Then the mass murders started, the concentration camps, the bombing of civilians, the police state, and now we all have things we are supposed to fear all of the time, so we clamor for an ever-growing police state everywhere.

[el_bryanto]

40. In fairness before WW2 the social welfare state was in its infancy even in Europe

Letting people into the United States is one thing; but at what point can they avail themselves of the same benefits as citizens?

Bryant

[William Z. Foster]

53. not talking about WWII

Read my post again.

Ah...so it is those welfare free-loaders you are worked up about - "the social welfare state" and "avail themselves of benefits." Ye3t another right wing argument.

Bismark started the modern system of social programs in Germany long before WWI. Rome had a policy of feeding the entire population of the city of Rome at public expense. The "welfare state" is hardly new. The right wing anti-welfare crap is what is new, and what is even more recent is Democrats promoting that propaganda.

[treestar]

44. Surely they provide a room and meals

for their boarders? Especially if they are open sort of people. Closed boarders wouldn't be much fun. They'd never talk to you!

[William Z. Foster]

57. that was my thinking, yes

I prefer one big table with everyone around it for meals, served family style. Lots of talk is good, too.

[Buenaventura]

28. i was quite open back in the day. room, board and ....

hmmm.

[el_bryanto]

47. I apologize for my misspelling. n/t

[Buenaventura]

25. ¡ningún ser hermano es ilegal! n/t

[SargeUNN]

14. You don't know what you are saying

Yes there is a problem and if you lived in a border state like I do you would see it. The problem is that too many don't know or care what the real problem is and your post points out exactly where the problem is, LACK OF KNOWLEDGE and APATHY in finding out. Sadly, the false solutions is compromising our National Security and little know or care. Here is one of the results of the lack of learning where the real problems is and why not learning the real story is hurting us. http://banishedveterans.info

[William Z. Foster]

19. agreed

Those problems are caused by the anti-immigration movement and policies, or at the very least made worse by them, not solved by them.

The Rush-Bagot treaty didn't "compromise our national security." Why would that be?

Why stop at national borders? Every argument people are using for closing the national borders applies equally to closing state borders, or even town borders. Actually, when this sort of hatred was whipped up in the past people did try to close state and city borders.

[Buenaventura]

21. precisely! (¡exacto!) n/t

[readmoreoften]

8. "things besides honest hardworking workers" are also born on American soil.

Illegal is an adjective, not a noun. There is no such thing as "an illegal" or "illegals." And, frankly, if you want to end the insourcing of workers, fight NAFTA and globalization.

[el_bryanto]

12. I don't agree. n/t

[EFerrari]

3. The anti-immigration movement has its roots in white supremacy groups

a number of them, including the Minute Men, in Arizona.

White Power USA

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=385&topic_id=427836

[SargeUNN]

4. There is a problem but it isn't what people think it is

The fact is the problems are much more solvable than people know. The generalizations are the danger and rule the day in the discussion of this problem. I have tried to explain what I have learned about the real problems and how experts on it that I have interview see it being resolved in a productive manner, but sadly not many listen on any side. I have tried to start threads here about the real problems and inform who these people are that are most effected but the topic disappears and the flaming continues. I keep thinking about starting yet another thread explaining it but since it won't be visible long enough I just keep telling myself that people on both sides don't really care but just want to flame.

[EFerrari]

10. I don't really understand why you keep doing this "both sides" baloney.

"Both sides" are not equivalent, thanks.

[SargeUNN]

15. I have explained it over and over but

it just doesn't seem to get through. The problems aren't being addressed by any side that often and by not addressing it and reducing it to racist or none racist only keeps the real problems from coming out so both sides are helping keep it the same old same old by not addressing the real issues.

[EFerrari]

26. And that would be your opinion as a three year resident of AZ

who is also, am I right, not a member of the Latino community there?

[SargeUNN]

36. Generalization

Not only have I lived here for 3 years but I have done radio shows on the topic. Interviewed people on all sides of the issue including State and Federal experts who have spend decades dealing with the issues, people from the Latino community, undocumented people who have excelled in education. In other words I have been working on this in a pretty involved way.

[Name removed]

5. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[mmonk]

7. I agree. They are taking the heat and the blame

for our illegal employers in a currently unworkable system.

[customerserviceguy]

58. Simple solution

Just have the states who want to reduce illegal immigration provide that wages for employees are not deductible unless accompanied by an e-Verify form for each worker. That will make the employers a bit more careful when checking cheap photocopies of driver licenses and Social Security cards.

[mmonk]

64. I have heard that e-Verify was a good method but I have been unfamiliar

with it.

[customerserviceguy]

82. It might have a few errors in it

But if you're legally able to work in the US, you owe it to yourself that the records are correct as regards you.

[William Z. Foster]

86. guilty until proven innocent

Yes, there "might be a few errors in it" but when we are saving the white race, who cares about a few "errors."

"You owe it to yourself that the records are correct as regards you." Good grief.

We all owe it to ourselves and to each other to resist this sort of thinking.

[customerserviceguy]

89. Same can be said of your credit report

I'm not saying that e-Verify is perfect, but ID you bought out of somebody's car trunk is probably not accurate, either.

What problem do you have with people working being legally able to work? Or, do you just feel that borders are artificial lines drawn on a piece of paper called a map, that have no real bearing on the way that nations should excercise some control over what happens within those lines?

[William Z. Foster]

92. yes

It is everywhere. "Total information awareness." I oppose that trend. Many do not.

In fact, I oppose the whole idea of "credit scores," and everything involved with and implied by that, as far as that goes.

I want to make the people who are working legal, all of them (and us) so I have no problem "with people working being legally able to work." I think ALL should be - automatically and without any permission or approval needed from the authorities.

I trust and side with the working people. I do not trust or side with the rulers.

I don't have any "feeling" about borders, I KNOW they were drawn by the few for the purpose of exploiting and enslaving the many. There is no other interpretation of history possible. I don't think land should belong to anyone. To see the land within the borders of this country as though it were private property contradicts the very premises upon which whatever legitimacy and legality the country does have rest, and the only reason for it to even exist at all.

[customerserviceguy]

93. Oppose credit scores all you want

but if you want to borrow money, or get car insurance, or even get a job, they will intrude upon your life. You cannot do anything about that. I merely use them as an example of a situation where people's freedom is potentially restricted by matters that may be in error, similar to e-Verify, where under the law one can take steps to correct the record.

So, if land doesn't belong to anyone, can I come camp out in your living room whenever I feel like it? I mean, what right do you have to the place where you rent or own, since nothing belongs to anyone? That's the fallacy of your position, most of us feel the right to control the spaces in which we personally inhabit.

Most Americans, while not in absolute unanimity about what to do about borders and those who violate them, feel that they are a part of what a nation has the right to control in regulating and creating order within. You're going to find as much resistance to changing their minds as you would find if you were get society to do away with credit reports.

[EFerrari]

99. Ironically, the same Americans feel no qualms at all when their government

violates the sovereignty of the very same countries whose dispossessed refugees turn up on our doorstep after we've stripped them of their democracy, killed their economy and supported the impunity of their oppressive governments.

And that's the fallacy of your position, that these people simply show up here for no reason. In order to believe that, you have to turn a blind eye to rapine your government commits in their countries and how you, as a taxpayer, fund the rapine that drove them north.

[Starry Messenger]

11. Yes.

It's ugly. Workers are workers. The ruling class will stop at nothing to destroy international worker solidarity while promoting their own "solidarity" with global corporatism. Don't listen to their lies, people.

[Hannah Bell]

13. yep. same thing happens in every downturn or crisis: foreigners get scapegoated.

[Name removed]

17. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[lumberjack_jeff]

18. No it's not.

I'm for immigration control and I'm not a racist, nor am I against the working class.

This is a red herring combined with doublespeak. The chamber of commerce LOVES unregulated immigration, because it enables them to drive down the price of labor. Unionism, minimum wages, worker advocacy are all meaningless when the pool of labor is limitless.

If you want to take up a cause, it benefits you to understand it, and not jump upon the first stereotype which grabs your fancy.

[William Z. Foster]

27. nonsense

Chambers of Commerce support ALL new people coming to their area, even if ALL they are is consumers - retirees, for example. You continually deny or ignore with your arguments that workers are also consumers, and are not "taking away" anything from "us."

The labor pool and the pool of consumers are roughly the same. Add a worker, add a consumer. There is no net loss, as you keep insisting.

The number of workers in an area does not cause setbacks for organized Labor. What nonsense. The more workers in an area, the more likely they are to organize.

Local Chambers of Commerce also oppose murder. Should we then call for the repeal of laws against murder?

You are desperately trying to find a way - any way you can - that will get Democrats on board with this racist and dangerous anti-immigrant movement. When a person continue to advance arguments over and over again, no matter how many times they are refuted, and continually looks for new angles to "sell" their ideas, I think it is reasonable to suspect that they are not revealing their true reason for promoting the ideas they are promoting.

Why don't we close STATE borders to WHITE workers so that "too many" of them don't go to an area to find work? That follows the same logic as you are using.

[truedelphi]

68. I was startled several years ago to receive a phone call from a dying women

I knew her from our work together against the Iraq War (under the First George Bush)

She was an ardent support of the open border policy.

She now needed a health care worker and wanted me.

After taking the job, and settling into work with her, I broached the question that had been on my mind since the day she called me. She was an ardent supporter of all immigration/all the time. Now she wanted me, a white person born in this country, to be her care giver. Why? In our neighborhood, there were certainly many many immigrants and she supported them, so why me?

Here is her reply:
"Over the last eighteen months, I have been in and out of nursing homes and hospitals in the S.F. Bay area. Before this experience, I never understood what other people told me - that those who come here can be racist against us. I still find it hard to believe that when I regained consciousness after surgery, desperately needing water, I pushed on the nurses' light.

"The latino nursing aide would come to my door. I would whisper "Water!" and they would turn away from me, and say, 'No speak English.'"

This woman was someone who had worked night and day for justice for those coming here from south of the borders. She found out the hard way that when the standards are removed, continually, that eventually the basics suffer. First people are here although they are not in possession of a green card. Then they are using someone else's name so they can work in a hospital and /or nursing home. (Finger printing and other ID services are almost always done off location.) There are no standards anymore. Nothing but excuses about how Americans don't want this type of job, or Americans do not want that type of job. Excuses that you cannot expect people to speak fluent English or any English. That they cannot be expected to know how to do the job - hey, they lack the education. Often there are state rules saying that English must be spoken (as in the hospital setting, there are laws saying that, but they are not enforced.)

The open border policy works out great for the people at the top, who run the hospitals and the nursing agencies. They can undercut these new hires in terms of pay, over time and benefits. But it in the end doesn't work well for the working class. When they watch their own children go to college and get teaching degrees, but because of affirmative action, fail to find work, while someone who can barely read or write is given a teaching job, then the sleeping giant that is the middle class begins to wake up.

Over my twenty years of doing elder care, I faced insurmountable tasks of trying to keep my job while all around me latina co-workers hustled to get me fired. (Then their family members could have my job.) I was written up by a co worker who was often one hour and forty minutes late (She has children, poor dear, said the agency. I had a friend who lived next door to her - the woman had NO children!)because I was three minutes late on a day when a Homeland security event had basically shut down the road to work. I could not report seeing a co worker stealing - that proved not that they were a thief but that I was a racist. I left that job, and several years later, was called by that agency to return there for work. That worker, whose exploits they refused to hear about, had gone on to steal such a huge amount of money from the client that she ended up in jail. But I should not have had to leave to begin with!

How much of this can people take? Those with advanced degrees who sit in an ivory tower talk about how great the open border policy is, and how racist the rest of us are, as they really like their gardener, but there is an underbelly to it. Believe me.

[Catherina]

79. For shame. Let's use a real story instead of a dubious anecdote

excerpts from articles)

Handyman dies protecting Centreville family he worked for from armed home invaders

By Tom Jackman
Washington Post Staff Writer
Wednesday, May 19, 2010

Jose Rosales was a devout Christian. He sent every spare penny he made as a landscaper and handyman back to his family in Guatemala, and he was so strong and industrious that he did the work of three men. He had the complete trust of the Brar family who hired him.

In turn, Rosales appreciated the steady work the Brars gave him in their construction and real estate businesses and around their 10-acre Centreville property and 9,000-square foot mansion, especially in tough economic times.

So on Monday morning, when two armed men broke into the family's four-car garage, Rosales stood between them and the Brars. "Get away from my brother and my mom," he said.

Then, the stocky Rosales decided to fight back. He jumped one of the invaders and wrested his gun away, sources familiar with the case said Tuesday. But the other man turned his gun on the family's mother. He threatened to kill the matriarch if Rosales didn't give the gun back. Rosales did, the sources said.

And then the gunmen shot and killed Rosales.

"Without Jose, I firmly believe I would not be alive right now," said Robbie Brar, a member of the stunned family, who spoke publicly for the first time Tuesday. "In a situation where most people probably run away, not only did he not run away, but he stood strong to protect people that are not related to him. He's a guardian angel."

...

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/05/18/AR2010051805603.html

PS. Some of the worst care I got during my recent hospital stay was from uncaring, untrained and either lazy or overworked citizen hospital workers.

[truedelphi]

100. Don't call someone a liar and then pretend you want to have an

Honest debate.

[truedelphi]

60. Twenty years ago, I would have called you a racist.

Now I agree.

After watching the health care industry embrace the immigration movement, so that it could avoid hiring blacks, avoid the normal inflation of wages, and know that those just into this country are not going to squeal when the health care providers don't even have sterile band aids in the hospital med cabinets, I see this from a whole new light.

It is not the elite doing undertaking this movement.

The big problem of course, is that the USA never rides on the side of sanity. Our guiding policies are always a swinging pendulum. One day everyone is supposed to understand that the open borders policy is wonderful,wodnerful, WONDERFUL, and the next day, we are supposed to hate everyone who is here from somewhere else.

When it is the middle ground that is needed.

[MODem75]

20. People are dehumanizing them by calling them a "problem"

They are human beings. The only problem is that they aren't given a path to citizenship.

[Skip Intro]

23. Anti-Immigration movement or Anti-Illegal Immigration movement? nt

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

29. same movement.

[EFerrari]

30. They resolve to anti-immigrant movement and that's how it is tracked

by organizations like the SPLC and Amnesty International.

[treestar]

51. Exactly. The same people when asked are against legal immigrants, too

Moratoriums and the rest of it.

[William Z. Foster]

50. same thing

Of course. Obviously.

[customerserviceguy]

55. It's a good question

It might be possible that there's a difference between those who sought to immigrate legally, and those whose first act in this country was to cross its border without authorization.

[William Z. Foster]

61. wow

"Without authorization."

I have a feeling we will be hearing that phrase more and more as time goes by and if things don't radically change pretty soon.

[customerserviceguy]

84. Yeah

"without authorization". I don't get to go to a foreign country without a visa, unless it's like Canada, where I get to do so by virtue of being an American citizen, and we have a treaty with them allowing me to do so.

[William Z. Foster]

88. got it

Thanks. I understand where you stand.

[customerserviceguy]

90. I've pretty much got the jist of where you stand, as well

I guess I believe in the right of sovereign nations to control who comes into them, and what they do there, and you think otherwise. We're all entitled to our own opinions on this.

[EFerrari]

32. ALIPAC Withdraws From AZ Rallies Over Nazi Groups & Tancredo

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=8361539

[blondeatlast]

37. Funny how that thread keeps sinking like a stone.

Apparently, being stared down by the truth is to be avoided at all costs.

[fascisthunter]

74. well, with my kick

people get to see it's title a bit more

[EFerrari]

94. Yep. I stopped cutting slack after watching "White Power USA".

mogster posted it way back in January but I just saw it last week. The neo nazis in that film repeat all the same points we hear here constantly. I'm not accusing DU of being full of neo nazis but it's chilling, really, that the white power psychos have been able to mainstream so many of their ideas.

[SargeUNN]

33. OK I will try one more time

The problem that must first be overcome is GENERALIZATION!! The lumping of all into one label is the part that kills rational solutions and lack of understanding that this adds to dragging in documented American citizens into the mix. The fact that undocument people are comprised of at least 2 different sets with different approaches to resolve the ways to deal effectively and properly fix the issues.

One group is those who are here undocumented but who obey the laws, do jobs that are hard and often nasty work, stay in the shadows without benefits of any social programs, don't vote and yet pay social security with some employers taking out life insurance on these people and if they die the employer gets a nice check since they are the ones any claim gets paid to. These people spend money in none latino business and contribute to the economy. They have children they bring here at early ages that get excellent grades in school and are bright and productive but can't apply for citizenship because they are here and would have to go back to a country they don't know, be denied applying for citizenship for 10 years and then likely denied after that because they were here.

Another group are those who are here by way of Cartels and to commit criminal acts such as kidnapping, murder of people including law enforcement offiers. These people are normally above any of the sweeps Arpaio catches since Arpaio usually gets the other set. These are the real problem and the ones we want to see caught.

Another problem is those veterans like Fabian who serve in the Military honorably, get out and on minor violations get deported. Check out http://banishedveterans.info for some of these kind. The failure to talk about these facts on both sides allows such to continue and we really need to add this to our discussion or we are just spinning our wheels to some degree.

[EFerrari]

35. It's possible that you aren't in the discussion because

the equating of working people with drug smugglers and the abuse of Latinos by the military has been very much a topic of discussion.

[SargeUNN]

38. I hope you are right but

I have been following it, posted topics about it that didn't get much attention and disappear very fast so I doubt you are right but maybe it will change to include it.

[EFerrari]

96. I know I am because I have brought it up. You are interested

in the military service angle. Here's a segment Amy Goodman did today about the targeting of Latino kids by recruiters. There's vide, transcript at link.

http://www.democracynow.org/2010/5/18/yo_soy_el_army_us_military

[William Z. Foster]

41. just silly

That could be said about any population - some are good and some are bad!!!

No one who is promoting immigrant rights is suggesting that serious criminals - whoever and wherever - should not be pursued and apprehended. A criminal's immigration status does not make them any more or any less difficult to apprehend.

[pinboy3niner]

66. Playing the crime card is another way the Right plays the race card

The L.A. Times reported on false perceptions about crimes committed by illegal immigrants:
_____________________________

Both sides in Arizona's immigration debate use crime argument

Statistics show foreign-born residents commit fewer crimes, but backers of an illegal immigrant law say public safety is their key motivation.

By Nicholas Riccardi, Los Angeles Times
4:49 PM PDT, May 3, 2010
Reporting from Phoenix

By many measures, Arizona has become safer since illegal immigrants began pouring into the state in the 1990s.

Crime has dropped all across the country since then, but the decrease has been as fast or faster in Arizona. The rate of property crimes in the state, for example, has plummeted 43% since 1995, compared with 30% nationwide.

That's no surprise to those who study immigration — both sides, whether for or against increased immigration, agree that immigrants tend to commit fewer crimes than native-born Americans.

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-arizona-crime-20100503,0,5543081.story

[EFerrari]

95. It's an old racist code, law and order. And I bet half of these people

who use it don't even know what they're saying.

[SargeUNN]

80. thanks for proving my point

it is attitudes like yours that keeps real solutions from coming. Thanks for showing it and exposing the lack of learning about this issue and why it won't be solved because of attitudes like yours.

[flamingdem]

45. The public schools in California are overwhelmed, it's not just scapegoating

it IS a problem but anti-immigration sentiments do not address solutions.

[William Z. Foster]

62. true with or without immigrants

Almost all public schools are on the ropes to one extent or another. That has little or nothing to do with immigration. Land Grant colleges are being privatized - can't blame that on immigrants. The public infrastructure is collapsing or is hopelessly corrupted everywhere - can't blame that on immigrants. Health care is a nightmare - can't blame that on immigrants.

[flamingdem]

63. You probably do not know much about the public schools in Southern California !! nt

[William Z. Foster]

67. fear not

You will win. There is one ugly mob of angry people forming, and now that so many Democrats are on board it is gaining momentum every day. The mob will have its way. How horrific that will be as it plays out is yet to be seen. People are becoming absolutely deaf to any rational arguments about this now, and it is getting worse and worse.

[flamingdem]

71. No mob here. Just been hearing stories from people for years.

I'm sympathetic but dysfunctional is dysfunctional so no point in being in denial.

[William Z. Foster]

76. something is dysfunctional, all right

To see just what it is that is dysfunctional, people need to look in the opposite direction. It is where things are "working" and where people are "winning" - that is where the probem is.

[Starry Messenger]

75. We wouldn't really be "overwhelmed" if there was proper funding

The solution isn't to punish people living and going to school here. Programs and classes have been cut to the bone so it just seems like the schools are really crowded. People don't realize that cutting even just one teacher eliminates a teacher for nearly 200 students in a high school alone. Those kids all have to go in other teachers' classrooms...now multiply that by a few thousand teachers cut. Then cut programs like art, shop, auto, craft and other classes. The remaining choices are packed with students trying to fulfill graduation requirements. This "crisis" was not brought on by immigration at all.

[Warren Stupidity]

78. The educational system in california was killed by prop 13 and the war on some drugs.

But they would love to have the working people of California fighting each other rather than waking the fuck up.

[flamingdem]

87. yes, but the point is that this is a problem, it is not okay

other parts of the country may not realize how badly overloaded the public systems are in Southern California.

[Warren Stupidity]

91. 'it' is a school system failing due to underfunding

the problem is not the children of undocumented immigrants, the problem is inadequate funding. Scrap prop 13, stop warehousing people for drug crimes. California has a revenue problem and the solution is not prop-187.

[EFerrari]

97. Undocumented workers pay taxes while they are here.

They're paying to be in those crowded schools and you can't blame them if our schools are not funded. They are paying their part.

[customerserviceguy]

54. I disagree

How can the same people of Arizona (who polls show support the new law) be both racist and pig-headed, yet support at the ballot box a tax increase that directly affects them, to pay for public needs?

Calling them racists will just drive them into the arms of the Repukes, and not just the ones who are already there.

[Motown_Johnny]

65. you are dead wrong !

I am working class, I am not blaming myself.


I am not a racist, if you are calling me one we will need to discuss that as a separate issue.


The simple fact is that if your top priority is anything other than the people who broke the law to come here then your point of view makes no sense.


If you care about the people who would like to come here legally but can't get a visa because of the number of people who are here illegally, your point of view makes no sense.

If you care about the people who are here legally and the financial resources denied to them because some are diverted to the people who are here illegally, your point of view makes no sense.

If you care about the rule of law and simply want to avoid rewarding people for illegal acts, your point of view makes no sense.

If you have learned from the Reagan "amnesty" that simply making illegal immigrants legal does nothing more than encourage illegal immigration, your point of view makes no sense.




I am not a racist and I am working class. I am not against immigration and am all for making legal immigration easier. I am not for rewarding breaking our immigration laws. Deal with it, you are dead wrong!

[William Z. Foster]

69. it is about attitudes

It is not about what you "are." It isn't about you at all.

Now matter how many caveats you put on your position, and no matter how "good" you think you personally are, you are lending support and encouragement to an extremely dangerous racist social movement.

[bridgit]

70. That is the TP, yes

[Hannah Bell]

72. another k/r

[fascisthunter]

73. I'm Starting to Really Enjoy Your Posts of Late

you nailed it... why didn't I post this?

[Catherina]

81. I always do. Rec'd n/t

[Warren Stupidity]

77. It is also Rebagnutter Suicide.

The Rebagnut Party should just own this issue and for shit's sake they can please take the remaining nativist yahoos lingering in the Democratic Party with them. The demographics are clear, the political party that is viewed by the hispanic population as standing with them and protecting their people from the racist authoritarian assholes is going to be the majority party for the rest of this century.

[David Zephyr]

83. K&R.

!

[CBR]

85. +1 ... I totally agree. nt

[pinboy3niner]

98. K&R

:kick:

[nichomachus]

101. K&R Immigrants are not the problem

None of our problems has been caused by immigrants -- documented or not. Every problem in this country has been caused by greedy corporatists. Immigrants have been set up as scapegoats just as the Jews were in 1920s Germany.

It's depressing to see that even many people here have bought into the corporatist propaganda.