Point your innocent finger, but we're getting exactly what we deserve

[time_has_come]

We all use fossil fuels. Spare us the "I do this!" and "I do that!" BS about how as an individual reduce your use.

All these qualifiers are bullshit.

Each and every one of us in North America and beyond are responsible for this.

Don't pretend that BP is anything other than something we created and enrich.

[flamingdem]

1. We are all responsible to push for change, see you at the protest sister/brother nt

[time_has_come]

2. Yes, but WHAT change?

Half the population (or more) still thinks global warming is a farce, thanks to a campaign funded by companies like BP.

And at the root, PEOPLE are unwilling to give up their lives. Their comforts and yearly holiday to the Caribbean.

How many DUers are planning holidays this year, I wonder? Even if they are continental, it's requiring lots of oil and compounding global warming.

[Kablooie]

16. We need a Manhattan Project for alternative energy.

[tabasco]

29. We need a Manhattan Project

to GET PEOPLE TO STOP WASTING SO MUCH FUCKING ENERGY IN THE FIRST PLACE.

I disagree with the OP. We are all not to blame. Anyone who has adopted a truly low-impact lifestyle is not to blame.

It is the other 99.99% of this lazy, wastrel, lardass country.

[Codeine]

30. Nobody in the West

leads a low-impact lifestyle, save perhaps the homeless.

Nobody.

[tabasco]

53. LOL.

You're wrong.

[Codeine]

55. What a tremendously factual argument.

I'm floored by your facts, just floored.

[napi21]

3. Yea we're responsible, but not in the way you think.

We're responsible because OUR Military uses more petroleum products than all other sources in the US combined. I'm not even sure that it's not more than the rest of the world! Maybe if we would get out of the policing the world business, we coult concentrate out tax dollars on alternative energy and stop using all the oil in the process.

[Hannah Bell]

20. A slight correction: not bigger than all sources combined: biggest single user.

US military uses about as much oil/products every day as Greece does.

But the numbers are a little wonky.

http://www.energybulletin.net/node/13199

All the U.S. tanks, planes and ships guzzle 340,000 barrels of oil a day, making the American military the single-largest purchaser and consumer of oil in the world.

If the Defense Department were a country, it would rank about 38th in the world for oil consumption, right behind the Philippines.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=16281892

[napi21]

23. Still the largest consumer in the US I believe. I know I'm dreaming when

I say I think the US should stop being the world's cops and downsize the military to something perhapse the size of germany or Japan. Protect OUR country and let the rest of the world do the same. I know there are treaties that we are obliged, at least for now, to abide by, but why can't we work toward changing those treaties, and concentrate on the US for a change?

Don't ya think it's about time?

[happy_liberal]

47. yes, our military uses more oil trying to get oil from Iraq-makes no sense

as for the op..


THIS ARGUMENT IS GETTING OLD AND IS REALLY STUPID.


Did Americans ask BP to remove a safety device that only cost them $500,000 when they are pulling billions per day?


Someone is trying to push the meme that WE are to blame, OBAMA is to blame...anyone but BP.

[flamingdem]

49. Time to tie in the military with the disaster in the Gulf, yes nt

[nadinbrzezinski]

68. Nah we use more fuel to feed you and me

and the military is actually ahead of the power curve in green technologies BECAUSE of that logistics problem.

I know people don't want to realize it, but my food, and yours, is quite oily... yes even that organic stuff.

[noise]

4. Said the BP spokesperson

Because we use oil BP should not be singled out for cutting corners on safety compliance? It's ok for them to pollute the Gulf because we use oil?

[time_has_come]

9. Of course not. But they ARE a monster of our own creation.

As individuals we cannot sit on our high horse and pretend that we haven't consumed untold barells since our birth.

Every one of us should look at that fucking spill cam and see our privileged western lives and assumed opulence laid bare.

Sure, mistakes were made on this oil rig. Greed caused corners to be cut. But yeah, expect nothing less than pollution on this earth, and blame nobody else but us because we use oil.

[time_has_come]

32. Oh, is that what I said? Gee whiz

how silly of me. And too late to edit. No wait, I DIDN'T SAY THAT! whew.

[Bonobo]

5. I see you gave up on your claims that BP is NOT trying to impede reporters.

Is this BP's new PR approach?

[laughingliberal]

7. +1000 nt

[Name removed]

11. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[time_has_come]

33. The CEO wasn't trying to impede reporters when he barked at them on that beach.

Why keep stating the obvious?

[laughingliberal]

6. The moral equivalency crap is getting old.

People who drive cars did not lobby Congress to avoid safety regulations nor did they order workers to skip safety steps. We all have a responsibility to reduce our use of petroleum based products but the criminals are responsible for their crimes.

[TheKentuckian]

10. +1 Poor, poor, poor BP we drove em to it. That's the ticket! Yeah...

[laughingliberal]

13. Yes. The cries of people hungry for oil haunted them and forced them to take risks to satisfy us.

Profit had nothing to do with it. :eyes:

[JackRiddler]

14. Furthermore, not everyone drives a car.

The OP is a rotten argument in many respects.

The energy people use (or can choose to use) varies enormously in a country of great inequalities.

Reducing blame to everyone is an ideology of disempowerment, especially when it is not coupled with an alternative. If everyone proclaims responsibility, then nothing need actually happen: Look at me, it's my fault! Now let's go home and whine in bed. Or else, the argument is used to silence people. They complain about BP, they're called hypocrites - even if they're right.

But where this tired thinking is most rotten is in ignoring the system. Energy is used collectively for activities like waging wars around the planet (in large part as an insane, self-destructive way to secure oil supplies!).

Enormous inefficiencies are built into the system. The transport alternatives are wasteful, and we're not laying down the tracks and bike lanes. Almost no one chooses what the nearest power plant consumes.

Capital markets and governments decide whether billions are invested in drilling holes on the ocean floor, or in developing solar energy. Obviously not everyone has equal say in these decisions. If you're not part of the political or corporate classes, you have very little say, we keep learning even when we "rise up" and vote in new faces.

Yes, we are all responsible - not necessarily for our different levels of energy consumption, but most assuredly for the fact that we did not get our shit together, storm the power centers and force the energy transformation - and the end of corporate control over everything, the end of a system that honors profit as almost the only acceptable purpose for any activity.

Of course, the OP is obviously among those who are more responsible for the problem than average. Otherwise the OP would not post this nonsense. The OP feels it, and needs to project it on to an abstract "everyone." This helps assuage the OP's feelings. Sorry state.

[laughingliberal]

15. Excellent points! eom

[time_has_come]

28. Don't think when you park your car your hands become clean

If we tallied up your oil use since birth, I'm sure the barrel count would surprise you. Oil has seeped (no pun intended) into practically everything we do.

But I applaud vegetarian bike-riders who try to eat locally and don't buy a bunch of useless shit. I aspire to it myself.

[JackRiddler]

52. I don't have a car. I don't think my hands are clean. And you need to stop projecting.

I'm sure my oil use since birth (jeez, can you at least let me write off the first 13 to 18 years?) is around the median for Americans and dwarfs that of the world average.

Every day, on an almost minute-to-minute basis, I take note of the many ways oil (and coal) is used for energy and products by myself and by people around me. You need to back off from the condescending tone of someone who knows better, which in combination with your repetitive, faulty logic does not serve you here.

The point being:

You didn't reply to what I wrote, which was clearly aware of these issues, and dealt with the fallacy in your highly limited approach. At best you riffed on the headline as a way of repeating your talking point. Which is de facto a demobilizing, pro-BP talking point.

So your options are to answer what I say, instead of projecting, or end up looking really stupid.

[flamingdem]

50. well put Jack nt

[Individualist]

41. Understatement

:thumbsup:

[nadinbrzezinski]

70. Actually reaizing what is the basis of our current

civilization, the base of the pyramid, has nothing to do with morality.

On the other hand, it has plenty to do with... systems analysis.

[TheKentuckian]

8. We were all born into the system we are in, we cannot be responsible for that

What we are accountable for is what we do going forward, our stewardship, and what we leave to those we borrow this world from-the future.

You will not obscure our sight, dull the urge we feel to fight for what is right, fill us with doubt and self blame, or silence the drumbeat that calls for systemic change.

How we go forward is how we will be judged not on what we started with.

What will you do?

Throw your hands up or struggle for change?

Will you attempt silence calls for a new path or will you join the chorus?

Will you help to move the needle or find a tired excuse to play the same old song?

You can cry your tortured karma song but it rings hollow when the brunt of the hit goes to the truly innocent, unless you hold culpable the plankton, shrimp, fish, corral, dolphins, birds, and all the variety of life we have put in harm's way????

What a cop out. Just a backhanded excuse to continue with the status quo.

[readmoreoften]

12. No thanks. I'm out in the streets trying to end capitalism around twice a week.

And yeah, I have to use a car to get to protests and meetings. And no, I don't find that ironic. It's hard to bike to organize war resisters at an army base 100 miles from home. There is no consumer solution. The only solution is ending capitalism. There are a few ways that can happen, but they're all difficult to achieve and they all require transportation and communication devices to get the job done. Sorry. I didn't choose this system. Put the blame where blame is due.

[TexasObserver]

17. bullshit

[Bluebear]

18. Yeah, poor BP, each & every one of us forced them to cut corners. Hogwash.

[slackmaster]

19. We buy the fuel, some of us own the stock, and we all elected the government officials

who failed to adequately regulate the oil and gas industry.

[readmoreoften]

21. And short of a revolution, what could've we done to change any of that?

[laughingliberal]

58. Nothing. And he knows it. Just making excuses for the corporate criminal class. nt

[Xicano]

22. A major flaw in your logic.

You act as if many people haven't been trying for years and years to move us to non polluting energy only to be quashed by the oil industry's massive lobby money.

Sorry but I can only give you a C- for your effort.

[TheKentuckian]

24. Don't forget the car makers, bought off regulators, and our pols

sometimes for the money and others out of self interest.

Shit, it would help mightily if the oil companies let lose of some of the battery patents and technology.

[cali]

25. and stupid simplistic collective guillt crap is still shit on a shingle

[happy_liberal]

48. yes- just how stupid do they think we are

There are responsible ways to drill, and there are irresponsible evil greedy bastards who ruin the world for everyone.

WE did not make the decision to drill without a simple $500,000 part/emergency backup plan.

[Scuba]

26. Not even close...

...I don't know anyone who said it was OK for Big Oil to drill in an unsafe manner.

When gas was $4.39 a gallon I had to pay it or lose my job. I paid. Did Big Oil use their obscene profits to make drilling safer? No.

When Bush forced through huge tax rebates for the most profitable industry in the history of commerce did Big Oil use that money to make drilling safer? No.

I don't know anyone who bribed regulators with whores and drugs. Quit blaming the victims.

Blaming people who consume gas is a diversion propagaged by Big Oil to make us all feel guilty and quit trying to hold them accountable.

[Hannah Bell]

27. i'm really tired of this kind of post. it's true, everyone except hermit bob uses oil

products to some degree.

but they don't make a profit off them, & they can't buy off the media & the government, and they were born into a world where the oil companies could, & they grew up in it before they knew the score.

so please quit pretending there's some kind of moral equivalence between me & bp, because there isn't.

there was a movement to convert from oil in the 60's & 70's.

it got crushed by the money power.

[time_has_come]

31. I stand corrected. BP isn't something we created and enrich.

:sarcasm:

To everyone who extrapolated my comment to mean that BP is not responsible for the failings that caused the leak, nice try.

But to those who insist BP and EXXON and all the other giant oil company cowboys sucking oil out of the ground as fast as they possibly can are not a direct result of our Western demands, does the truth hurt that much?

[MadHound]

36. Sorry, but your point doesn't fly

We were all born into an oil using world. Many of us recognized the dangers of our oil dependency thirty, forty years ago. We worked to change things, worked within the system and without. Many of us also made changes in our personal lives in order to minimize our use of oil.

Yet all these efforts have come to naught, mainly because Big Oil has bought our government, plain and simple. You can write, call and email your representatives and the president all you want, but they're not listening to us, they're listening to the money that corporations have deposited in their campaign warchests.

So what do you suggest? Overthrowing the government? Tearing down the corporate structure in this country, what?

[Jennicut]

34. Only true to a certain extent. BP cut all kinds of corners.

Bush and Cheneny allowed the regulations to be gutted and Salazar did not clean up the Interior Dept. and MMS fast enough. And politicians for years have not put a system of alternative energy in place. We have to fight for that and demand it. We are all dependent on oil but that does not mean regulations can not be put back in place and followed (or companies will be fined). Nor does it get politicians off the hook for being so tied to big oil, gas and coal that they allow no room for alternative energy.

[time_has_come]

35. Correct on all counts. And we can make changes to remedy all that...

...but until we stop using oil companies will still drill for it and another leak will happen.

[Jennicut]

37. There will be no stopping of drilling in the near future. But down the line

there is less and less oil to find. It gets more and more dangerous. And Rethugs want us to ruin Alaska on land for a little amount of oil. But we can minimize the chances of the leak happening. Meanwhile, we must move away from fossil fuels. Will any of this happen? Obama is only one man and is up against way too much to do it on his own. He did mention at the press conference that easier oil is pretty much gone. But he must have the public pressure and cooperation from those in Congress. I doubt he would ever get the cooperation in Congress needed. So there we go, around and around with no real solution in sight....

[time_has_come]

42. You hit upon the solution though...

...we must move away from oil.

All this anger at BP and the whodonnit over the leak is justified, and important...but it pales in importance to the real solution. We need a revolution. It's not enough for individuals to just reduce their own use as much as they can and look to others to follow.

[Jennicut]

44. I agree. Will this move people to action, the public and the govt.?

One can be skeptical but retain some hope there. I do.

[LanternWaste]

74. Welcome to the 21st Century

"...we must move away from oil. "

Welcome to the 21st Century-- it's been a dialog we've been engaging in for a while now. Some people are even proactive in their approaches both financially and within the greater nfrqastructure.

I guess some people do, some people discuss, and some people lay blame...

[ecstatic]

45. + 1 nt

[Marr]

38. What do they pay you, anyway?

[time_has_come]

40. The truth is it's own reward. n/t

[Motown_Johnny]

39. most of us are for responsible drilling, you can't blame us for irresponsible actions

by the company or the previous administration.

[Individualist]

43. Unrec for another blame the people, not the corporations post.

Damn the DLC!

[NNN0LHI]

46. Not me. I produce my own ethanol

http://gasburner.blogspot.com/2010/04/april-fools-perpetual-motion-machine.html

[Odin2005]

51. Brainwashed people are NOT "really" responsible for their actions.

And we as a society have been thoroughly brainwashed though corporate MSM Orwellian thought control. How can people be responsible when their perception of reality has been so completely disrupted by corporate brainwashing that most think lies are truth and truth are lies?

[William Z. Foster]

54. blaming the working people

I reject the attempts here at blaming the common people for the consequences of the predatory behavior of the few. It is inconsistent with and contradictory to everything we stand for.

[AllentownJake]

56. We should all just kill ourselves

Seriously under your fucked up logic every man and woman on the planet should kill themselves right now because a product they use was not extracted safely.

[laughingliberal]

57. Oh, you do make wonderful points!

[AllentownJake]

60. I'm getting sick of people

Saying we are all to blame because we live in a society fueled on fossil fuels. Alternatives are expensive. Yes it would be nice if we could all put windmills on our houses, for economic reasons, let alone zoning reasons that isn't plausible.

I'd love to take an electric vehichle to work everyday, seeing that one would cost my annual salary, that is kind of ridiculous as well.

We can work to reduce our dependence gradually, this bullshit nonsense I'm somehow responsible for my great grandparents generation's decsion to build an economy off the substance and to get off of it overnight is quite fucking absurd.

BP took short cuts in safety. Lets focus on that will we first before we go on our crusade to save the world from the fossil fuels. We can make the next talk about alternatives after we establish that.

[laughingliberal]

62. I agree. And it's an excellent attempt to minimize the criminality of the industry. nt

[AllentownJake]

63. Tylenol is in trouble because they took short cuts in manufacturing their product

Am I guilty because I use Tylenol that Tylenol took a short cut.

I swear, some people need a 2 X 4 of common sense to their head.

[taterguy]

71. Best thing that ever happened to me . . .

[NNN0LHI]

84. Someone hit you with the soft end of a 2 X 4 there taterguy?

Pity.

Don

[H2O Man]

59. oh

[inna]

61. Fail. Utterly pathetic.

[robdogbucky]

64. There is a friend of our family

that is an upper management level employee of one of the major oil companies. Over the years I have had the opportunity to discuss some oil issues with him from time to time. Whenever any question about the pricing of, or environmental dangers posed by the extraction of oil comes up, almost without missing a beat the argument out of his mouth is that all we consumers depend completely on the oil companies for almost everything of value in our civilization. They are providing the most vital service to our society, etc. Where would you be without your vehicle? Where would all the homes heating with oil turn to? Everything plastic is derived in part from petro, not to mention our entire military is based on the use of oil to propel it, etc., etc., etc.

It is really sickening sometimes to listen to that line of logic. The sentiment stated herein earlier that we all were born into this world of oil is true and I think on point. We have had no choice. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't try to muster the courage to recognize where we are, where we are heading, and now even how long? We can change, but unfortunately I think only if we have to.

I always counter his "can't live without oil," with mild sentiments like "As a successful exploitative corporation dependent on government cooperation, don't you think it would not be too much to ask to pay a larger share in taxes, or do larger funding of environmental programs, etc.?" Or, I say "Let's switch positions for just a minute and you be the Indian in the rain forest, dependent on crude agriculture for survival. I will play the giant oil company, coming in on helicopters, humvees, etc., and proceed to destroy and pollute their world forever, because, well, they can." These usually cause a pause in the discussion.

Please pass the peas.



rdb

[time_has_come]

65. Yes, we do need to muster the courage. The courage to do what is not clear

it's not enough for five, or even ten per cent of our western population to live low energy lives - vegetarian, no car, cold wash, no air conditioning, local goods, etc..
Even if an amazing revolution in thinking occurred, a miracle, and a whopping 50 per cent of our population lived like that, it's not enough. Not by far.

So you and I can have courage to live our individual lives using very little oil, but we're still in and of a society that demands oil.

[BeFree]

67. Oh

So you are resigned to the idea that that this leak is your fault?

So what are you going to do about it and your future leaks?

[time_has_come]

73. The existence of BP et al is OUR fault

Sorry if that fact upsets you.

[BeFree]

76. You admit YOU are to blame

What are your plans to change things?

Or are you just gonna roll over and take it?

[time_has_come]

81. Did i deny it? Am i not part of "we"?

Again, sorry the truth has so upset you.

[BeFree]

83. Y'know what?

I am tired of your shit. You're on ignore. Good riddance, you don't have one good thing to offer.

[time_has_come]

85. LOL. Thought you ignored me already...

...wield your power, friend. goodbye, and good luck.

[nadinbrzezinski]

97. Well I am not shocked that they reached the systems analysis

level conclusion that some of us are reaching independently.

Granted, they benefit from it, so change for them is toxic. But once you realize where we are as a world wide oil based civilization, that is what we need to change.

And they will not lead the parade on that. This parade needs to start, where you suggested, taxes, tax them to pay for all the damage they've caused...

But after that we need to have system wide changes in our GLOBAL civilization.

IMO we are at a point where we will be forced to do that, and this is mulfi factorial.

1.- People are realizing at a systems level just how sickening our dependence is... they did not make it up, our economy, a world economy, depends on the stuff and we need to change that.

2.- We are at peak oil, so it is going to be increasingly difficult to do this extraction and exploration. Reality is that it will not be the rules of the market place, and we have plenty of fans here, that will change that. It will simply be unavoidable and we will need to do what needs doing.

3.- GOVERNMENTS need to get involved, but in adversarial capacity.

4.- We need a slew of technologies that don't exist today. Hell, even a solar panel requires the black stuff to produce.

But in my mind realizing just how damn dependent we are is a first, but critical step. And to them it is propaganda.... but it is one of those rare cases where they are telling you the truth. THINK, what did you use today that wasn't touched by the black stuff in any shape, way or form? And that is a critical but essential step...

[Duer 157099]

66. I suppose if the Hoover Dam broke due to negligence

and drowned several downstream communities, we'd all be culpable because we use water?

That's sort of the logic of your argument.

[HCE SuiGeneris]

69. A real turd of an OP.

You want to assign fault? Start with your "logic".

[nadinbrzezinski]

72. Tell me, today have you used ANYTHING

that was not touched by oil in one way or another?

If you think so, you haven't thought this trough. This has nothing to do with morality though, and all to do with systems analysis. Realize we are an oil based GLOBAL civilization... and the oil companies are essential to that civilization. Moving AWAY from it will not be easy, could lead so population collapse, and will require concerted, and global GOVERNMENT effort.

The first step though is to realize them Birkenstock, granola, latte and volvo were all touched by oil at least a few times... and for the right, it is the same way. All we use was touched by it... all we eat was touched by it. There are a few things we can do to reduce consumption, and in the aggregate they will help... but those are stop gaps, not true solutions.

Oh and this is systems analysis... not pie in the sky ideas or for that matter, morality.

[inna]

75. i'm so disgusted by corporatist apologists, i want to throw up.

:puke:

Beyond lame, NB and your insulting and absurdly misplaced condescension. :thumbsdown:

[nadinbrzezinski]

78. THis is not about the corporation

but I am asking you to THINK. Have you used ANYTHING today that was not touched by oil?

I ate food that was touched by it, at the very least TRANSPORTED to where I bought it in vehicles burning fossil fuels.

The clothes I wear were produced with fossil fuels at almost every step of production.

The car I drove, goes without saying

The Computer I am typing this would not be possible without the stuff.

I am just cognizant that this goes much beyond BP or any one corporation.

At one point human civilization was based on bronze. It collapsed within a generation. In my opinion our OIL BASED civilization is at that point... and if we are to avoid it, it don't take corporations, but WORLD GOVERNMENT ACTION. Now if that is being pro-corporate, guilty as charged.

But truth be told, most people, not Americans, most people don't realize just how dependent on the stuff we are.

And I will ask once again, did you use today something that wasn't touched by the stuff? ANYTHING? Realize if you have a garden and you used any fertilizers, they are either oil based, or the cows producing the manure ate hay that is dependent on them fossil fuels.

[inna]

79. Nadine - so what is your POINT?? Other than shifting the blame from where it truly belongs.

[nadinbrzezinski]

82. I am well beyond playing the blame game

I realize how dependent we are on the stuff, no matter WHERE in the world we happen to be.

And here is what will happen. We are at Peak Oil. Either we, as a world civilization, make a concerted effort to move away from this stuff. This takes technology, regulations, work, science... and chiefly leaving the blame game behind because it will make nil of a difference.

Or we don't, and we are at peak oil and weather change.

It is quite conceivable that this combination of circumstances will lead to a collapse of populations that will be amazing. Yes, what billion starves to death this year, it is that stark... and in the end... even if we, as a species, take the right steps our civilization might collapse and our descendants will wonder who built those structures, what titans... see Homer. Or humanity will simply go away, as in extinct.

Now I don't blame you for using the stuff... we all do, all the time... and you are the one playing a morality game where there is no room for that. The time is now, we either realize just how dependent we all are on the stuff, or necessary changes will be impossible to make. And yes, some of it is technological, but failure is a real possibility. And personally in the middle of a disaster, I don't have time for the blame game. Now individually to BP, there are 11 counts of manslaughter at the very least... if not outright murder II...

Alas we have to also worry about at the very least 3 million ecological refugees. So I am sorry if I refuse to join you in the blame game. We will be very busy pressuring those who in theory represent me, to realize what is at stake... and it is not one single corporation.

Now answer the question, did you use today ONE item that was not touched at any stage by the black stuff? If nothing else to yourself... I am asking you to THINK...

[inna]

86. Ahhh... forgive me, but that sounds like more corporatist apologism (is that a proper noun?)

Nothing personal.

[nadinbrzezinski]

89. Exactly where have I defended their actions?

Oh wait, not joining you in tearing my hair out and tearing my clothes and reaching for the sack cloth... as I demand the death of a corporation. That is already happening. But you missed my point.

And I am not shocked that you did. Most people cannot think their way out of a wet paper bag. I am talking of the collapse of a GLOBAL civilization, possibly extinction for the species. And you are telling me that I am defending BP?

Okie dokie. I guess we are thinking of very different levels here...

Yes, do accuse me of being condescending. Right now I am.

Oh and go ahead and rend your clothes... and throw ashes into your hair... while you do that... for whom the bell tolls?

Oh and exactly how is demanding a CONCERTED ACTION BY WORLD GOVERNMENTS pro corporate I have no idea... poli sci 101 is perhaps in order. So is a history 101 course, concentrating on the Bronze Age, and add the Maya to your list. That is what I am talking about.

And yes, now I am VERY condescending.

Oh and I forgot

:banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead:

There, I feel better now.

[inna]

92. glad you feel better.

right on.

[time_has_come]

91. Nadine spent time giving you some intelligent points...

..and all you do is call her a "corporate apologist."

You're coming off like Glen Beck, do you realize that? Try reading and responding with some thoughtful honesty

And the answer is of course you used oil-based products today.

[nadinbrzezinski]

94. Welcome to DU by the way

and sadly it don't matter WHERE you posted this... people are almost incapable of thinking beyond THIS company and THIS incident.

:hi:

As to the Glen Beck way of responding, I blame the media... lack of education and of course the historic distrust of intellectuals in the US that goes way back to the Colonial Period. That will be a hindrance in the changes we need enacted, I fear in the United States.

[inna]

95. yawn. run along, flame somebody else.

glen beck yourself. :shrug:

[nadinbrzezinski]

96. I like you, but on this one

you are not capable of thinking outside this incident and this company.

Where were you when the Ixtoc I went off in '79? Were you aware that ANOTHER company pulled a similar incident in Australia LAST YEAR? Here is a clue, PEAK OIL... so how are you going to do this at a SYSTEMS LEVEL? And by the way these are the two best examples of this. There are literally hundreds of them in the history of oil exploration.

And once again, did you use any product today that DID NOT use any oil in it's production or arrival to you home?

THINK... I know you are capable of doing that. THINK.

[TheKentuckian]

101. Do you honestly think you are capable of making such and evaluation

based of your lame and trite OP?

You think people born into a system are responsible for it's existence rather than being accountable for what they do with those circumstances going forward. You decision tree and version of cause and effect is literally absurd.

[RandomThoughts]

77. The system analysis includes not having things like mostly bad groups

as shown by effects and intents make social policy. And it seems carbon fuels, and monopolies fit into the mostly bad intents and effects groupings.

If something is not best path, but is used and part of much of society, it makes sense that it will be part of a non perfect society, but that does not mean it decides what directions society goes.



It is the same story.

If some system is shown to not be the best for society and even the planet, that does not mean it will go away all together, just that it should not be the things that sets policy.

If the financial system is shown to not help society and not to make the best decisions, it does not mean it will completely go away, just that it should not set policy.

If a bias system creates bad effects, it really is hard to say all biases will go away, only that bias groups should not set policy on those topics.

If you have flaws in your life, you may not be able to get rid of all the flaws, but those flaws should not direct what you do every time you do something.

It is the same concept.

In the same way, it is not people that are the problem, but what parts they choose to follow and listen to, and in that you don't have to be mad or angry at people, but instead try and help people to follow their better sides without judgement, if there is a way to do that. There are some situations where justice is needed, but only if it is for justice not punishment, so it should be with mercy and love also, but for justice intents and actions should have equality and dignity for everyone in the system.

[nadinbrzezinski]

80. First things first, realize where we are

after that we can talk all the reform in the world you want. Which incidentally will require GOVERNMENT action. Those suggesting, even here, that people will stop using gasoline, for example, when the price sky rockets are being way too Catholic in their praise of the word (Adam Smith) and have never read it... or they'd realize he'd be ranting and raving against the monopoly. Problem is the more I think about it, this organic monopolistic system perhaps is not just part of the problem, but a symptom of how hard it will be to break away from it.

[Bluebear]

87. .

[Bluebear]

88. Enjoying your little flamefest? Hope the pilot light isn't on gas.

[Zoeisright]

90. You are absolutely right.

We're so numbed by the stupid shit in this world: Lost, American Idol, worrying about paying the gas bill. And every single one of us has been lazy. We have not done enough to make politicians hear us.

This is exactly, EXACTLY what we deserve. Unfortunately, the wildlife doesn't deserve it. Or the planet.

[grahamhgreen]

93. Pathetic. It's YOUR fault - the apologists and enablers of destructive greed. You blame the victim.

Because you know you are the guilty party.

[Bonobo]

98. There is a lot of truth in that statement. Blindness to scale and proportionality...

is still blindness.

The common person is born into this huge matrix-like system. The fact that we cannot see a way out, despite our struggles, does not place us anywhere near te real power brokers in terms of culpability.

But this kind of apologistic, corporate fetishism does nothing but muddy the waters.

The truth is that we all need energy. However I daresay that the good members of DU would be happy to drive in solar-powered vehicles at 30 mpg or even less if it meant saving the world.

The fact that such options are essentially not open to most people is not their fault, but the fault of the govt. and their corporate friends.

We elected a person that we thought would change things, just as we did back in the Carter days. Little good it did because such change would not be allowed by the greed pigs you defend.

[Forkboy]

99. Do we have to quit breathing to complain about air pollution?

[underseasurveyor]

100. Oh What a Bunch of Horse Apples

Who the hell controls what the population of this country uses and how much? Be it paper or gas or what ever? Do you believe that william randolph hearst was going to give up so easily on his timber/paper business? No! He lobbied like hell against the hemp industry otherwise he would have been a poor man. Plain and simple. We got suckered and our environmental resources were there for the taking and the raping. Where would the timber industry be today if back then hemp was used instead?

The big oil people operated in much the same way. Profit/Power Profit/Power Profit/Power and that's ALL that matters to them and we (the pawns) were dragged into this, not kicking and screaming, no, but rather lulled into this cool new era of horseless transportation. Now we're addicted and we need to break this addiction and no doubt we will eventually.

I just hope I'm still living when finally that day arrives that I might say, Wow now why didn't we do this 50 years ago.

We didn't create this hell.. THEY did and by blaming the pawns for what the power elites do is BULLSHIT!

[TexasObserver]

102. Hey! We don't use that kind of harsh language here.

What about the children?



I agree with the tenor of your post, of course.

[underseasurveyor]

103. Oh golly gee I'm so sorry

By all means I will of course try and omit such vulgar language in the future.


heh ;-)