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Biden: Israel right to stop Gaza flotilla from breaking blockade

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slipslidingaway Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-02-10 11:22 PM
Original message
Biden: Israel right to stop Gaza flotilla from breaking blockade
The Prime Minister of Turkey stated that the ships which left their port had been inspected by their authorities and Israel does not allow many items into Gaza, Biden left out those details.

:(

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/biden-israel-right-to-stop-gaza-flotilla-from-breaking-blockade-1.293833

"...In an interview with Charlie Rose, Biden pointed out that Israel had given pro-Palestinian activists the option of unloading their cargo at the Ashdod port, and offered to bring it to the Gaza Strip on their behalf.

"They've said, 'Here you go. You're in the Mediterranean. This ship -- if you divert slightly north you can unload it and we'll get the stuff into Gaza,'", he said. "So what's the big deal here? What's the big deal of insisting it go straight to Gaza? Well, it's legitimate for Israel to say, 'I don't know what's on that ship. These guys are dropping… 3,000 rockets on my people..."



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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-02-10 11:26 PM
Response to Original message
1. Let's turn the tables.
Egyptian ship stops Israeli ship on the high seas bound for port in Israel, offers to unload cargo in Gaza, saying, "we'll get the stuff into Israel".

What's the big deal here? What's the big deal of insisting it goes straight to Haifa? :silly:

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LakeSamish706 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-02-10 11:33 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. How about that we are in International Waters here? What gives either Egypt or Israel the right
to board a ship in High waters without the express permission of the captain of the ship?
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harkadog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-02-10 11:47 PM
Response to Reply #3
7. A Blockade is legal in international waters
JFK did it in international waters when he blockaded Cuba. A ship trying to run the blockade can be expected to be boarded as were the civilian Russian ships trying to get to Cuba with civilian supplies.
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LakeSamish706 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-03-10 12:24 AM
Response to Reply #7
13. I personally think that you should really reconsider the avatar that you are using!
Something tells me that you don't deserve to use that one as an alias.
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slipslidingaway Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-03-10 12:38 AM
Response to Reply #13
16. Kucinich wants Obama to 'call Israel to an accounting'
http://www.cnn.com/2010/POLITICS/06/02/gaza.kucinich/

"...He called for the United States to "begin to redefine its relationship" with Israel and for Israel to face diplomatic and financial consequences for the attack, which killed nine people.

"If our nation fails to act in any substantive way, the United States licenses the violence and we are complicit in it and our own citizens will be forced to pay the consequences," he wrote..."


Exactly my thoughts on the avatar as well :)



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harkadog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-03-10 12:47 PM
Response to Reply #16
43. Using a avatar to deflect from addressing the point. Classic.
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harkadog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-03-10 12:45 PM
Response to Reply #13
42. An alias?
Do you think I go around saying I'm DK? Since I have been on this board I have used several avatars because I like to change every so often. I have had the state of AZ, Phoenix Suns, Cesar Chavez, and a couple I don't remember. I admire DK as a man of principle. That doesn't mean I agree with every position he takes or have to fall in line with every thought he has. I don't treat politicians like god figures like many at DU do. But thanks for your concern.
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Lagomorph Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-04-10 04:48 AM
Response to Reply #13
76. He said it was legal...
...he didn't say he liked it. We intercept drug and weapon smugglers on the high seas all the time. We don't KNOW what's on the boat, but if they refuse to stop, we shoot out the engine, and send boarding parties over to investigate. Our blockades are just as militant as Israel's.
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MyNameGoesHere Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-03-10 12:18 PM
Response to Reply #7
36. "San Remo Manual on International Law Applicable to Armed Conflicts at Sea."
Under some of the key rules, a blockade must be declared and notified to all belligerents and neutral states, access to neutral ports cannot be blocked, and an area can only be blockaded which is under enemy control.
So since Israel does not recognize Palestine or Hamas, are they blockading themselves? Also ships of nuetral countries are allowed safe passage. So is a Turkish flagged ship a neutral country?
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harkadog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-03-10 12:59 PM
Response to Reply #36
49. The blockade has been declared for months now and everyone knows about it.
The ships in the flotilla were all notified in advance they were not be allowed to land and would be subject to boarding. Yes a country is allowed to set a military line of defense in the sea around their own country (as did Lincoln during the Civil War in the southern states). Lincoln's was more than military, he wanted to literally starve the Confederacy which he didn't recognize. I'm sure there will be some on DU condemning Lincoln now just as they are doing JFK. That is the degree of hatred by some on DU towards Israel. They will attack JFK and Lincoln just to score some point against Israel. The Turkish ship had Hamas terrorists aboard. That is why that was the only ship where there was violence.
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MyNameGoesHere Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-03-10 01:14 PM
Response to Reply #49
52. Even JFK was not overly
enthusiastic about using a blockade. 'BTW you cab read the whole Maritime Doctrine here

http://www.icrc.org/IHL.nsf/52d68d14de6160e0c12563da005fdb1b/7694fe2016f347e1c125641f002d49ce


While what Israel did was not illegal,it is morally questionable, which is also covered in the doctrine. The JFK blockade of Cuba was also questionable as there was NO PROOF of imminent danger from Cuba. There is not proof that Russia intended to launch these missiles as a first strike option. JFK was trying to save face from his previous military disaster.

So here is my opinion of Israels actions. Israel your all grown up now, it is time to take responsibilities for your actions. You violate international law continuously and are never held to account. The actions of your country are in no slight way different that Iran. Iran is paying with strict economical sanctions and I think it is time you have to pay the price as well.
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Bluerthanblue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-03-10 01:21 PM
Response to Reply #49
54. wow, you'll reach to all kinds of places
to justify this won't you?

I don't hate Israel- I HATE actions that are inhuman. The treatment of the Palestinian people under Israel's occupation is something I hate. That doesn't mean I believe Israel does not have a right to exist, or that I believe it should be 'wiped off the map'. Our financial and political support of them makes us complicit in the actions they take. We look the other way when they do things we strongly disapprove of, and continue to support them. That is just plain wrong imo.

In my personal opinion, there are SOME people in power in Israel who have looked into the abyss far too long, and become the monster they despised. There are also some really good people in Israel who want an end to the occupation and who seek to find a way for everyone to live together in peace. I respect them, and have no problem supporting them.

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Truth2Tell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-03-10 12:37 PM
Response to Reply #7
40. Don't you dare go comparing JFK to the thugs
running Israel. Kennedy imposed a MILITARY blockade on Cuba, not a humanitarian blockade. HUGE difference. The US allowed everything other than weapons past the Cuban blockade. We were not deliberately starving the children of Cuba, as Israel is deliberately doing to the children of Gaza. (Of course our subsequent embargo has had a similar, less-effective impact on civilians, but it's not a blockade.)
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harkadog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-03-10 12:50 PM
Response to Reply #40
46. Don't you dare go showing your ignorance of current events.
Israel has a MILITARY blockade on Gaza. They were willing to let humanitarian supplies go through. Try again and make up some more stuff. I'm sure you will.
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Truth2Tell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-03-10 08:37 PM
Response to Reply #46
67. No, sorry. They are not willing to let ANYTHING "go through."
In fact, they just raided a non-military merchant vessel in international waters against even the most absurd interpretation of international law - in order to NOT let humanitarian supplies through.

And FYI - your Kucinich avatar isn't fooling anyone.
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harkadog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-03-10 10:27 PM
Response to Reply #67
68. I'm not trying to fool anyone with an avatar but that says what mindset you have with yours.
Didn't say they were willing to let ANYTHING through did I? It is a blockade. Look that up if you don't know what the word means. They had told the flotilla that humanitarian supplies (not as Hamas terrorists define that term) would be let though. That's why he Israelis set up a port station to receive and inspect the supplies before moving them to Gaza. Make up some more stuff now.
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Bluerthanblue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-03-10 12:59 PM
Response to Reply #40
50. thanks for the facts on this-
I couldn't believe that humanitarian aid to Cuba would have been blocked. The one thing I heard that the Turkish ship had on it that Israel objected to was cement. And according to a report I read, Israel says there was no cement aboard... :shrug:
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Bluerthanblue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-03-10 12:49 PM
Response to Reply #7
45. ...because JFK did it, does that make it 'right'?
sorry, but I wouldn't have supported JFK's actions either. Humanitarian aid shouldn't be blocked. There were no weapons on board the flotilla- no guns or bombs- the Palestinians are suffering, and their suffering is hurting everyone. This is just wrong.
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harkadog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-03-10 12:51 PM
Response to Reply #45
47. What JFK did was entirely correct.
We are all here because of it.
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Bluerthanblue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-03-10 01:09 PM
Response to Reply #47
51. or perhaps we are all here in spite of it...
We can all point to things in the past as justification for doing things in the future, your claim that it is why we are all here today is silly.

Did JFK stop a shipload of humanitarian supplies? Did he authorize those who stopped any shipments to shoot to kill any of the people aboard? have them drop out of Black-Hawk helicopters onto the ships? your defense of Israel's actions citing JFK's embargo against military supplies is disingenuous. Russia was our clearly defined enemy in the 60's is Turkey Israel's clearly defined enemy? Did we stop shipments of HUMANITARIAN aid to Cuba? How many people did our troops shoot dead in the process?
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harkadog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-03-10 04:06 PM
Response to Reply #51
64. Yes JFK stopped a civilian Russian ship
Perhaps you are not old enough to have experienced it. Everyone thought the Russians would refuse to allow boarding and run the blockade. This would mean nuclear war. The Russians blinked at the last minute and turned around and the rest is history. The point is the only way you know something is 'humanitarian' is by stopping it and inspecting it for weapons.
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sabrina 1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-04-10 04:15 AM
Response to Reply #7
74. This blockade violates the Geneva Conventions and is illegal.
Collective punishment is against International law. Added to which the reason for this blockade is against International law. There are specific rules regarding what makes a blockade legal. Israel was upset with the results of an election. That is NOT a legal reason for a blockade.

The purpose of these relief efforts is to break that illegal blockade. I have a feeling they will only increase and that many more people will be joining them now that they have been turned into heroes for most of the world and there will sadly be more incidents like this.

Why it has been left to ordinary citizens of over 42 countries to try to force Israel to obey the law, rather than their Governments, is the big question I would like an answer to.

If Lebanon, eg, were to do what Israel is doing in Gaza, there would be no need for the world's citizens to take matters into their own hands, the UN, led by the U.S. and Israel and a coalition of the willing would invade them and the UN Security Council would approve the invasion. Why the different treatment for Israel and the U.S. when they break the law?
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slipslidingaway Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-02-10 11:40 PM
Response to Reply #1
6. People always need to try and put themselves in the position of the ...
other party.

:)

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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-02-10 11:30 PM
Response to Original message
2. Deleted message
Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Hardrada Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-02-10 11:33 PM
Response to Original message
4. Who needs LIEberman as VP when you have Joe Biden
who must be one of the most bought and paid for hacks in DC.
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slipslidingaway Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-02-10 11:50 PM
Response to Reply #4
9. Most in DC are bought and paid for :( n/t
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tango-tee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-02-10 11:51 PM
Response to Reply #4
10. I feel nothing but disgust
at our government's reaction. Who is dictating these talking points? AIPAC?

Surely, there must be a difference between being a country's "ally" and being its "lackey".

With each passing day I become more disenchanted (to put it very mildly) with this administration. A Nobel Peace Prize winner and his VP... I'm at a loss for words.
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Carolina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-03-10 12:05 PM
Response to Reply #4
30. touche
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Douglas Carpenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-02-10 11:40 PM
Response to Original message
5. this is disgraceful and harmful to America's national interest
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slipslidingaway Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-02-10 11:49 PM
Response to Reply #5
8. Agreed and now we read that Israel, with an American observer, should ...
conduct an investigation and the rest of the world will think???

:shrug:

Obama: Let Israel probe Gaza flotilla raid with U.S. observer

http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/obama-let-israel-probe-gaza-flotilla-raid-with-u-s-observer-1.293853

"The United States has proposed a possible way for Israel to avoid an international probe of the events surrounding the Gaza flotilla, but at this point Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu is leaning against it, in part because Defense Minister Ehud Barak is opposed to it.

The Americans have proposed that Netanyahu announce that an independent Israeli commission of inquiry will look into the events of the flotilla clashes and accept the participation of an American observer..."







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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-03-10 12:13 AM
Response to Reply #8
12. It's Turkey's jurisdiction, isn't it? It happened on their vessel.
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slipslidingaway Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-03-10 12:27 AM
Response to Reply #12
14. Here is one person's view ...
http://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2010/05/the_legal_posit.html

"...There are therefore two clear legal possibilities.

Possibility one is that the Israeli commandos were acting on behalf of the government of Israel in killing the activists on the ships. In that case Israel is in a position of war with Turkey, and the act falls under international jurisdiction as a war crime.

Possibility two is that, if the killings were not authorised Israeli military action, they were acts of murder under Turkish jurisdiction. If Israel does not consider itself in a position of war with Turkey, then it must hand over the commandos involved for trial in Turkey under Turkish law.

In brief, if Israel and Turkey are not at war, then it is Turkish law which is applicable to what happened on the ship. It is for Turkey, not Israel, to carry out any inquiry or investigation into events and to initiate any prosecutions. Israel is obliged to hand over indicted personnel for prosecution..."








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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-03-10 01:04 AM
Response to Reply #14
19. Thanks. I've read so much so fast, it's all turning into mush right now. n/t


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slipslidingaway Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-03-10 09:04 AM
Response to Reply #19
25. You're welcome ...
and it does not help when an article was here one minute and gone the next.

:silly:





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proteus_lives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-03-10 12:06 AM
Response to Original message
11. Biden's right.
Israel gave them a choice.

They chose poorly.
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Jim Sagle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-03-10 01:00 AM
Response to Reply #11
18. Fuckin' A.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-03-10 04:00 AM
Response to Reply #18
22. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-03-10 01:05 AM
Response to Reply #11
20. It wasn't Israel's choice to give. n/t
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proteus_lives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-03-10 01:09 AM
Response to Reply #20
21. Yeah, it was.
As long as arms are smuggled into Gaza to use against Israel, it's their choice and their option/duty to prevent that.
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howard112211 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-03-10 05:10 AM
Response to Reply #21
24. Nope. Fail. The Palestineans have a right to be armed.
Edited on Thu Jun-03-10 05:10 AM by howard112211
You do realize that the founders of Israel were also "weapon smugglers and terrorists", right?
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proteus_lives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-03-10 10:52 AM
Response to Reply #24
27. Since when do the Palestinians have the right to attack Israel?
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walldude Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-03-10 12:17 PM
Response to Reply #21
35. Which would be great if all they wanted to stop was arms... Here's a list
of items banned from going into GAZA..

srael keeps secret its guidelines on how it differentiates between humanitarian necessities for Gaza’s 1.5m residents and non-essential luxuries, citing security reasons. Its choices, however, are often baffling. Food products prohibited from entering include jam, chocolate, biscuits, potato chips, fresh meat, coriander and industrial margarine, according to human rights groups. Other banned goods include musical instruments, pens, notebooks, toys, cars, fridges and computers, as well as building materials like cement, iron, gravel, marble and some wood. Additionally, Israel only allows in just over half the weekly industrial fuel needs for Gaza’s only power plant, as well as less than half of the region’s necessary monthly gas supply, according to activists.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/698c8b84-6cc0-11df-91c8-00144feab49a.html


So tell me. What right does Israel have to ban toys and food and musical instruments from going in to Gaza? Or should no shipments be allowed in at all? After all there could be weapons along with that food and those toys. :eyes:


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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-03-10 03:12 PM
Response to Reply #21
59. No, they can't violate international law at will.
They can't attack peaceful vessels and kills people and kidnap people at will. That they treated all these people they way they treat Palestinians every day is a good thing, though. The world got to see exactly how they operate and that's why there is a huge and ongoing international outcry and why today our government said the siege of Gaza is unsustainable.
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lumpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-03-10 04:02 AM
Response to Reply #11
23. " Israel gave them a choice." What the hell is that?
Do it our way or else ? Pigs !
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proteus_lives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-03-10 10:53 AM
Response to Reply #23
28. Why didn't they take it?
Why were they more interested in PR then getting the supplies to the Gazans?
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Carolina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-03-10 12:08 PM
Response to Reply #11
31. And whatever Israel says and does is right!?
I guess all those Freedom Fighters during the Civil Rights Era should have just packed up and gone home, too

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proteus_lives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-03-10 02:23 PM
Response to Reply #31
57. Your statement would be damning if I had said that.
But I didn't so you just look foolish.

And your Civil Rights thing falls on it's face for a number of reasons. Educate yourself.
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Carolina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-03-10 03:33 PM
Response to Reply #57
60. No, you just have blinders on. Educate yourself and read this
Lying About the Gaza Flotilla Disaster by MJ Rosenberghttp://www.commondreams.org/view/2010/06/03-7

The first thing you need to know about the Gaza flotilla disaster is that the intention of the activists on board the ships was to break the Israeli blockade. Delivering the embargoed goods was incidental.

In other words, the activists were like the civil rights demonstrators who sat down at segregated lunch counters throughout the South and refused to leave until they were served. Their goal was not really to get breakfast. It was to end segregation.

That fact is so obvious that it is hard to believe that the "pro-Israel" lobby is using it as an indictment.

Of course the goal of the flotilla was to break the blockade. Of course Martin Luther King provoked the civil authorities of the South to break segregation. Of course the Solidarity movement used workers' rights as a pretext to break Soviet-imposed Communism.

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citizen snips Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-03-10 01:21 PM
Response to Reply #11
53. agreed
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Rex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-03-10 12:28 AM
Response to Original message
15. Biden is a huge supporter of Israel and a paid for tool.
Not surprised at his statements, just sad.
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slipslidingaway Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-03-10 12:38 AM
Response to Reply #15
17. Yes, not surprised, just sad as well. n/t
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Inuca Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-03-10 12:29 PM
Response to Reply #15
37. A paid for tool?
What exactly are you saying?
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Rex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-03-10 11:49 PM
Response to Reply #37
70. That he is a politican that puts business first
and people second.
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Mari333 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-03-10 09:05 AM
Response to Original message
26. shut up, Joe. you have no credibility to speak while we occupy 2 countries
and murder their citizens for corporations.
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Carolina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-03-10 12:10 PM
Response to Reply #26
34. and remember, he voted for the Iraq War Resolution
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Catherina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-03-10 11:54 AM
Response to Original message
29. "Those who threaten Israel threaten us"
September 10, 2008

A self-proclaimed Zionist, Joe Biden is a friend of Israel

Biden publicly labels himself a Zionist. He has stated that "I do not accept the notion of linkage between Iraq and the Arab-Israeli conflict," according to the Jewish Telegraphic Agency. "Biden has a sterling voting record on pro-Israel issues and as chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee has helped shepherd through key pro-Israel legislation."

He has worked cooperatively with every Israeli prime minister since Golda Meir.

http://www.jewishjournal.com/opinion/article/a_self_proclaimed_zionist_joe_biden_is_a_friend_of_israel_20080910/



Just for fun, google to learn more about *friend of Israel*, it's like a badge given and awarded.


"Our alliance is based on shared interests and shared values. Those who threaten Israel threaten us. Israel
has always faced these threats on the front lines. And I will bring to the White House an unshakeable
commitment to Israel’s security…I will ensure that Israel can defend itself from any threat - from Gaza to
Tehran."

Obama Speech at 2008 AIPAC Policy Conference, 6/4/08


Support Israel’s Right to Self Defense: During the July 2006 Lebanon war, Barack Obama and Joe Biden
stood up strongly for Israel’s right to defend itself from Hezbollah raids and rocket attacks. Obama is an
original cosponsor of the Senate resolution expressing support for Israel, condemning the attacks, and calling
for strong action against Iran and Syria. Throughout the war, Barack Obama made clear that Israel should not
be pressured into a ceasefire that did not deal with the threat of Hezbollah missiles.


...

Barack Obama and Joe Biden have consistently supported the annual
foreign aid package that involves both military and economic assistance to Israel and has advocated increased
foreign aid budgets to ensure that these funding priorities are met. Additionally, Obama has called for
sustaining the unique U.S.-Israel defense relationship by fully funding military assistance and continuing
cooperative work on missile defense programs, such as the Arrow. He recently laid out a bold vision for further
strengthening the U.S.-Israel alliance, stating, “Defense cooperation between the United States and Israel is a
model of success, and must be deepened. As president, I will implement a Memorandum of Understanding that
provides $30 billion in assistance to Israel over the next decade - investments to Israel’s security that will not be
tied to any other nation. …Going forward, we can enhance our cooperation on missile defense. We should
export military equipment to our ally Israel under the same guidelines as NATO.”

Speech at the 2008 AIPAC


Paid for by Obama for America


http://www.barackobama.com/pdf/IsraelFactSheet.pdf
Policy Conference, 6/4/08]
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slipslidingaway Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-04-10 10:37 PM
Response to Reply #29
77. Thanks! n/t
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Skidmore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-03-10 12:08 PM
Response to Original message
32. And exactly what rights do the Palestinean people have to security, survival
and self-governance? What is the value of a Palestinean life?
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Tierra_y_Libertad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-03-10 12:09 PM
Response to Original message
33. Is Biden a mouthpiece for Netanyahu? Obama? Or, both?
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Inuca Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-03-10 12:30 PM
Response to Reply #33
38. I would say Obama
Do you have a problem with that?
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Tierra_y_Libertad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-03-10 12:32 PM
Response to Reply #38
39. Only in that,, if he is, it means that Obama supports the murderers.
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Bluerthanblue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-03-10 12:43 PM
Response to Original message
41. Joe's wrong on this one- and even if it was 'legitimate' for them
to 'stop' the flotilla, it WASN'T legitimate for them to board them using black hawk helicopters and to shoot people dead. There weren't any guns on the flotilla- :thumbsdown:
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Tailormyst Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-03-10 12:48 PM
Response to Original message
44. I'm disappointed in you Joe.
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kenny blankenship Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-03-10 12:58 PM
Response to Original message
48. Usually he just sticks his foot in his mouth. This time he covered it in shit first.
Mr. Vice President, were you aware that one of the dead was an American citizen who was shot four times in the head at close range?

Uh duh oh ah uh well, that's uh regrettable
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TheKentuckian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-03-10 01:25 PM
Response to Original message
55. He's right. The alternative plan seems to call for Hamas and the PA to do whatever
they'd like and for Israel to just suck it up and be thankful they are on the map for as long as it can last.

Who would deny Israel has shown greater restraint than other powers under much less threat? I'm sure some will try but it will be a steaming load. No chance whatsoever that the US, Russia, England, China, or France would tolerate ANY attacks and surely not regular and ongoing attacks from a nation, group, or entity sworn to wipe them from the face of the Earth.

We'd have long ago turned the West Bank to glass and salted the earth rather than live under much of any actual threat to our people. Shit, we rain hell on folks all the time for far less.
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Bluerthanblue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-03-10 01:39 PM
Response to Reply #55
56. sorry but I call
bullshit-

The claim that Israel has to be completely supported in every action they take or those who take issue with their fuck-ups want to see the nation "wiped off the face of the earth" is so old, and so offensive to me.

So is the idea that justifying a BAD action by others while saying 'well, we'd do the same or worse' is pretty weak too. I don't believe that our occupation of Iraq was a good idea, never have and never will, I also believe our occupation there fuels the desire of some to join forces that DO seek to 'wipe the US from the face of the Earth'.

Absolutely, Israel has a right to exist, but so do the Palestinians- and the occupation issue MUST be dealt with for any kind of meaningful peace to ever hope to come to the region imo.
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TheKentuckian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-03-10 03:04 PM
Response to Reply #56
58. Call it all you want. I call bullshit that you'd risk weapons coming in to attack you with
and I call bullshit that you'd even would allow a Palestine in the wake of an event like the Six Days war. I didn't say you want to see Israel wiped away but Hamas certainly does and that can't be denied by anything resembling an honest observer. I surely don't comprehend how you'd equate a resource war in Iraq with the Palestinian situation, I think it should be clear that the motivations are not even similar.

I just don't get what is expected of Israel from folks of similar mind to yourself. When you say the occupation situation must be dealt with as a prerequisite for peace, what do you mean my dealing with it? What is it they should do and what does that expose their people to?

I'm open to correction here but I've always got the impression that folk like yourself think they should give the PA whatever they demand and essentially suck it up for even being there. I generally think they have shown more restraint than the rest of the world in similar spots, that's not a justification, it's reality. What would you have them do? What would you demand the PA do? If Hamas and the PA deal dirty (as they often have) then what recourses would you prescribe?

I've been hearing what Israel must do from different quarters but only a bunch of nonsense and finger crossing as the how to's. Suck it up and hope they chill is not a peace plan.
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Bluerthanblue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-03-10 03:43 PM
Response to Reply #58
62. iraq is NOT a 'resource war'-
if you think it is, and you don't see our invasion of it as an occupation, then I really doubt that you and I can agree on much about anything.

Israels right to exist does not give it a right to do whatever it pleases without others objecting- There are those in Israel who are as hateful and fervent in their desire to eradicate Palestinians as those who would seek the destruction of Israel. To deny that, to excuse inexcusable incidents such as the murder that occurred on that flotilla is just as bad as supporting attacks against innocent Israeli citizens. BOTH are wrong. As a people, the Jewish citizens of Israel should know better than most how wrong it is to oppress and cause suffering to people as a 'governmental entity'. Many good citizens of Israel do, but those in power, don't seem to. That's my opinion, and I'm open to listening to others, and learning. I don't hear anyone telling Israel to "suck it up"- I hear you telling those who are suffering BECAUSE of Israels ongoing occupation to not only 'suck it up' but to suffer in silence and without any hope.

:shrug:

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TheKentuckian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-03-10 03:50 PM
Response to Reply #62
63. and the purpose of the occupation is to "secure"/steal Iraq's resources aka OIL
You think we're there because we like the neighborhood or want a colony?

We are there and remain there for OIL.
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Bluerthanblue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-03-10 05:09 PM
Response to Reply #63
66. I don't think we're going to have much luck
stealing Iraq's oil. How much oil have we gotten from Iraq since we invaded? How much do we expect other nations to allow us to just take, never mind the 'insurgents' who will not stop fighting as long as we are there? Why didn't we invade Iran instead? They have more oil than Iraq. So does Saudia Arabia, or hell, even Canada...


What is Israel's goal in remaining in the occupied territories? What would it take to get them to exit the area? Do they even see that as a real possibility? What's to stop Israel from just continuing to increase their settlements? What recourse or rights do those natives in the occupied areas have other than armed resistance? How is the oppression of the average Palestinian any less wrong than the actions against the Jews in Germany early on in Hitler's regime?
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harkadog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-03-10 10:41 PM
Response to Reply #66
69. The Israelis on many occasions have offered agreements
which would set up a Palestinian state. The Palestinians have always found some excuse to reject it. Their current excuse is they want the "right of return". They want to be able to flood Israel with the Palestinians who now live in the West Bank or Gaza and seize land now owned and occupied by Israelis. Most Palestinians weren't even alive when the state of Israel was formed but they want to be able to "return" to the land Israel now exists in. This is ridiculous and as long as the Palestinians and their Arab puppet-masters continue to hold this position it will never be solved.
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Douglas Carpenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-04-10 12:28 AM
Response to Reply #69
71. if the vast majority of settlements are not REMOVED - a two-state solution is physically impossible
The Netanyahu government has publicly promised the radical settler movement that they will never, ever evacuate any settlers or settlements - ever and an the Netanyahu government has publicly promised the radical settler movement that any limited freeze on settlement expansion is one time only and will never ever again be repeated - ever. It is not simply the words that the Israeli state issue, which are frequently very fine words about wanting peace, it is the expansion, expansion and expansion that makes viable Palestinian economy and independence impossible - thus a peace settlement implausible at least for the foreseeable future.



There are approximately 450,000 Israeli settlers in the West Bank, (*now closer to 500,000) including East Jerusalem. According to B'tselem: The Israeli Information Center for Human Rights, " the built-up area of the settlements in the West Bank covers 1.7 percent of the West Bank, the settlements control 41.9 percent of the entire West Bank".*

http://www.btselem.org/English/Maps/Index.asp

full PDF map:

http://www.btselem.org/Download/Settlements_Map_Eng.pdf




http://www.ft.com/cms/s/728a69d4-12b1-11dc-a475-000b5df10621,Authorised=false.html?_i_location=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ft.com%2Fcms%2Fs%2F0%2F728a69d4-12b1-11dc-a475-000b5df10621.html%3Fnclick_check%3D1&_i_referer=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.democraticunderground.com%2Fdiscuss%2Fdu


“there is no Palestinian state, even though the Israelis speak of one.” Instead, he said, “there will be a settler state and a Palestinian built-up area, divided into three sectors, cut by fingers of Israeli settlement and connected only by narrow roads."
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/11/world/middleeast/11road.html?_r=11&pagewanted=2&ei=5070&en=22948d4799a34065&ex=1187496000&emc=eta1&oref




Extra! July/August 2002


The Myth of the Generous Offer:
Distorting the Camp David negotiations



July/August 2002
http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=1113

By Seth Ackerman

The seemingly endless volleys of attack and retaliation in the Middle East leave many people wondering why the two sides can't reach an agreement. The answer is simple, according to numerous commentators: At the Camp David meeting in July 2000, Israel "offered extraordinary concessions" (Michael Kelly, Washington Post, 3/13/02), "far-reaching concessions" (Boston Globe, 12/30/01), "unprecedented concessions" (E.J. Dionne, Washington Post, 12/4/01). Israel’s "generous peace terms" (L.A. Times editorial, 3/15/02) constituted "the most far-reaching offer ever" (Chicago Tribune editorial, 6/6/01) to create a Palestinian state. In short, Camp David was "an unprecedented concession" to the Palestinians (Time, 12/25/00).

But due to "Arafat's recalcitrance" (L.A. Times editorial, 4/9/02) and "Palestinian rejectionism" (Mortimer Zuckerman, U.S. News & World Report, 3/22/02), "Arafat walked away from generous Israeli peacemaking proposals without even making a counteroffer" (Salon, 3/8/01). Yes, Arafat "walked away without making a counteroffer" (Samuel G. Freedman, USA Today, 6/18/01). Israel "offered peace terms more generous than ever before and Arafat did not even make a counteroffer" (Chicago Sun-Times editorial, 11/10/00). In case the point isn't clear: "At Camp David, Ehud Barak offered the Palestinians an astonishingly generous peace with dignity and statehood. Arafat not only turned it down, he refused to make a counteroffer!" (Charles Krauthammer, Seattle Times, 10/16/00).

This account is one of the most tenacious myths of the conflict. Its implications are obvious: There is nothing Israel can do to make peace with its Palestinian neighbors. The Israeli army’s increasingly deadly attacks, in this version, can be seen purely as self-defense against Palestinian aggression that is motivated by little more than blind hatred.

Locking in occupation

To understand what actually happened at Camp David, it's necessary to know that for many years the PLO has officially called for a two-state solution in which Israel would keep the 78 percent of the Palestine Mandate (as Britain's protectorate was called) that it has controlled since 1948, and a Palestinian state would be formed on the remaining 22 percent that Israel has occupied since the 1967 war (the West Bank, the Gaza Strip and East Jerusalem). Israel would withdraw completely from those lands, return to the pre-1967 borders and a resolution to the problem of the Palestinian refugees who were forced to flee their homes in 1948 would be negotiated between the two sides. Then, in exchange, the Palestinians would agree to recognize Israel (PLO Declaration, 12/7/88; PLO Negotiations Department).

Although some people describe Israel's Camp David proposal as practically a return to the 1967 borders, it was far from that. Under the plan, Israel would have withdrawn completely from the small Gaza Strip. But it would annex strategically important and highly valuable sections of the West Bank--while retaining "security control" over other parts--that would have made it impossible for the Palestinians to travel or trade freely within their own state without the permission of the Israeli government (Political Science Quarterly, 6/22/01; New York Times, 7/26/01; Report on Israeli Settlement in the Occupied Territories, 9-10/00; Robert Malley, New York Review of Books, 8/9/01).

The annexations and security arrangements would divide the West Bank into three disconnected cantons. In exchange for taking fertile West Bank lands that happen to contain most of the region's scarce water aquifers, Israel offered to give up a piece of its own territory in the Negev Desert--about one-tenth the size of the land it would annex--including a former toxic waste dump.

Because of the geographic placement of Israel’s proposed West Bank annexations, Palestinians living in their new "independent state" would be forced to cross Israeli territory every time they traveled or shipped goods from one section of the West Bank to another, and Israel could close those routes at will. Israel would also retain a network of so-called "bypass roads" that would crisscross the Palestinian state while remaining sovereign Israeli territory, further dividing the West Bank.

Israel was also to have kept "security control" for an indefinite period of time over the Jordan Valley, the strip of territory that forms the border between the West Bank and neighboring Jordan. Palestine would not have free access to its own international borders with Jordan and Egypt--putting Palestinian trade, and therefore its economy, at the mercy of the Israeli military.

Had Arafat agreed to these arrangements, the Palestinians would have permanently locked in place many of the worst aspects of the very occupation they were trying to bring to an end. For at Camp David, Israel also demanded that Arafat sign an "end-of-conflict" agreement stating that the decades-old war between Israel and the Palestinians was over and waiving all further claims against Israel.

Violence or negotiation?

The Camp David meeting ended without agreement on July 25, 2000. At this point, according to conventional wisdom, the Palestinian leader's "response to the Camp David proposals was not a counteroffer but an assault" (Oregonian editorial, 8/15/01). "Arafat figured he could push one more time to get one more batch of concessions. The talks collapsed. Violence erupted again" (E.J. Dionne, Washington Post, 12/4/01). He "used the uprising to obtain through violence...what he couldn't get at the Camp David bargaining table" (Chicago Sun-Times, 12/21/00).

But the Intifada actually did not start for another two months. In the meantime, there was relative calm in the occupied territories. During this period of quiet, the two sides continued negotiating behind closed doors. Meanwhile, life for the Palestinian population under Israeli occupation went on as usual. On July 28, Prime Minister Barak announced that Israel had no plans to withdraw from the town of Abu Dis, as it had pledged to do in the 1995 Oslo II agreement (Israel Wire, 7/28/00). In August and early September, Israel announced new construction on Jewish-only settlements in Efrat and Har Adar, while the Israeli statistics bureau reported that settlement building had increased 81 percent in the first quarter of 2000. Two Palestinian houses were demolished in East Jerusalem, and Arab residents of Sur Bahir and Suwahara received expropriation notices; their houses lay in the path of a planned Jewish-only highway (Report on Israeli Settlement in the Occupied Territories, 11-12/00).

The Intifada began on September 29, 2000, when Israeli troops opened fire on unarmed Palestinian rock-throwers at the Al-Aqsa Mosque in Jerusalem, killing four and wounding over 200 (State Department human rights report for Israel, 2/01). Demonstrations spread throughout the territories. Barak and Arafat, having both staked their domestic reputations on their ability to win a negotiated peace from the other side, now felt politically threatened by the violence. In January 2001, they resumed formal negotiations at Taba, Egypt.

The Taba talks are one of the most significant and least remembered events of the "peace process." While so far in 2002 (1/1/02-5/31/02), Camp David has been mentioned in conjunction with Israel 35 times on broadcast network news shows, Taba has come up only four times--never on any of the nightly newscasts. In February 2002, Israel's leading newspaper, Ha'aretz (2/14/02), published for the first time the text of the European Union's official notes of the Taba talks, which were confirmed in their essential points by negotiators from both sides.

"Anyone who reads the European Union account of the Taba talks," Ha'aretz noted in its introduction, "will find it hard to believe that only 13 months ago, Israel and the Palestinians were so close to a peace agreement." At Taba, Israel dropped its demand to control Palestine's borders and the Jordan Valley. The Palestinians, for the first time, made detailed counterproposals--in other words, counteroffers--showing which changes to the 1967 borders they would be willing to accept. The Israeli map that has emerged from the talks shows a fully contiguous West Bank, though with a very narrow middle and a strange gerrymandered western border to accommodate annexed settlements.

In the end, however, all this proved too much for Israel's Labor prime minister. On January 28, Barak unilaterally broke off the negotiations. "The pressure of Israeli public opinion against the talks could not be resisted," Ben-Ami said (New York Times, 7/26/01).

Settlements off the table

In February 2001, Ariel Sharon was elected prime minister of Israel. Sharon has made his position on the negotiations crystal clear. "You know, it's not by accident that the settlements are located where they are," he said in an interview a few months after his election (Ha'aretz, 4/12/01).

They safeguard the cradle of the Jewish people's birth and also provide strategic depth which is vital to our existence.

The settlements were established according to the conception that, come what may, we have to hold the western security area , which is adjacent to the Green Line, and the eastern security area along the Jordan River and the roads linking the two. And Jerusalem, of course. And the hill aquifer. Nothing has changed with respect to any of those things. The importance of the security areas has not diminished, it may even have increased. So I see no reason for evacuating any settlements.

Meanwhile, Ehud Barak has repudiated his own positions at Taba, and now speaks pointedly of the need for a negotiated settlement "based on the principles presented at Camp David" (New York Times op-ed, 4/14/02).

In April 2002, the countries of the Arab League--from moderate Jordan to hardline Iraq--unanimously agreed on a Saudi peace plan centering around full peace, recognition and normalization of relations with Israel in exchange for a complete Israeli withdrawal to the 1967 borders as well as a "just resolution" to the refugee issue. Palestinian negotiator Nabil Sha'ath declared himself "delighted" with the plan. "The proposal constitutes the best terms of reference for our political struggle," he told the Jordan Times (3/28/02).

Ariel Sharon responded by declaring that "a return to the 1967 borders will destroy Israel" (New York Times, 5/4/02). In a commentary on the Arab plan, Ha'aretz's Bradley Burston (2/27/02) noted that the offer was "forcing Israel to confront peace terms it has quietly feared for decades."

http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=1113






Contrary to popular mythology in some circles, Arafat did NOT walk out of Taba..The Israeli negotiating team under instruction from the Prime Minister Ehud Barak unilaterally ended the talks in January 2001 because of the election which Ariel Sharon was predicted to win by a landslide with an absolute promise to reject any agreement with the Palestinians reached at Taba. These facts are not in dispute among sane and rational people.


Here is the link to the European Union notes - known as the Morantinos documents which all sides have confirmed to be a reliable record of what occurred at Taba, Egypt in January 2001.




snip: "Beilin stressed that the Taba talks were not halted because they hit a crisis, but rather because of the Israeli election."

snip:"This document, whose main points have been approved by the Taba negotiators as an accurate description of the discussions, casts additional doubts on the prevailing assumption that Ehud Barak "exposed Yasser Arafat's true face." It is true that on most of the issues discussed during that wintry week of negotiations, sizable gaps remain. Yet almost every line is redolent of the effort to find a compromise that would be acceptable to both sides. It is hard to escape the thought that if the negotiations at Camp David six months earlier had been conducted with equal seriousness, the intifada might never have erupted. And perhaps, if Barak had not waited until the final weeks before the election, and had instead sent his senior representatives to that southern hotel earlier, the violence might never have broken out."

link to European Union notes:

http://prrn.mcgill.ca/research/papers/moratinos.htm



--------------

Israelis, Palestinians make final push before Israeli election
January 27, 2001
Web posted at: 11:38 a.m. EST (1638 GMT) - link:

http://archives.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/meast/01/27/mideast.01/index.html

"Barak's challenger for the prime minister's post, hard-line, hawkish Likud party chairman Ariel Sharon -- who holds a commanding lead in the polls -- has said he would not honor any agreement worked out between Barak's negotiators and the Palestinians. "

"Ehud Barak is endangering the state of Israel to obtain a piece of paper to help him in the election," Sharon said at a campaign stop Saturday. "Once the people of Israel find out what is in the paper and what Barak has conceded, he won't get any more votes."
_________________

Here is a neutral and dispassionate examination of what led to the break down at Camp David in 2000 and Taba in January 2001:

Vision of Collision: What Happened at Camp David and Taba" by Professor Jeremy Pressman:

http://belfercenter.ksg.harvard.edu/publication/322/visions_in_collision.html?breadcrumb=%2Fexperts%2F355%2Fjeremy_pressman



This is the statement adopted unanimously by the Arab League and endorsed by the PLO in 2002 - restating the same basic statement adopted in 1996 - but the expo facto position since 1988.

The Arab Peace Initiative of 2002 has been endorsed by the PLO, all 19 members of the Arab leage and all 57 members of the Organization of Islamic Conference





The Arab Peace Initiative, 2002

Official translation of the full text of a Saudi-inspired peace plan adopted by the Arab summit in Beirut, 2002.



The Council of Arab States at the Summit Level at its 14th Ordinary Session,

Reaffirming the resolution taken in June 1996 at the Cairo Extra-Ordinary Arab Summit that a just and comprehensive peace in the Middle East is the strategic option of the Arab countries, to be achieved in accordance with international legality, and which would require a comparable commitment on the part of the Israeli government,

Having listened to the statement made by his royal highness Prince Abdullah bin Abdul Aziz, crown prince of the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia, in which his highness presented his initiative calling for full Israeli withdrawal from all the Arab territories occupied since June 1967, in implementation of Security Council Resolutions 242 and 338, reaffirmed by the Madrid Conference of 1991 and the land-for-peace principle, and Israel's acceptance of an independent Palestinian state with East Jerusalem as its capital, in return for the establishment of normal relations in the context of a comprehensive peace with Israel,

Emanating from the conviction of the Arab countries that a military solution to the conflict will not achieve peace or provide security for the parties, the council:

1. Requests Israel to reconsider its policies and declare that a just peace is its strategic option as well.

2. Further calls upon Israel to affirm:

I- Full Israeli withdrawal from all the territories occupied since 1967, including the Syrian Golan Heights, to the June 4, 1967 lines as well as the remaining occupied Lebanese territories in the south of Lebanon.

II- Achievement of a just solution to the Palestinian refugee problem to be agreed upon in accordance with U.N. General Assembly Resolution 194.

III- The acceptance of the establishment of a sovereign independent Palestinian state on the Palestinian territories occupied since June 4, 1967 in the West Bank and Gaza Strip, with East Jerusalem as its capital.

3. Consequently, the Arab countries affirm the following:

I- Consider the Arab-Israeli conflict ended, and enter into a peace agreement with Israel, and provide security for all the states of the region.

II- Establish normal relations with Israel in the context of this comprehensive peace.

4. Assures the rejection of all forms of Palestinian patriation which conflict with the special circumstances of the Arab host countries.


5. Calls upon the government of Israel and all Israelis to accept this initiative in order to safeguard the prospects for peace and stop the further shedding of blood, enabling the Arab countries and Israel to live in peace and good neighbourliness and provide future generations with security, stability and prosperity.

6. Invites the international community and all countries and organisations to support this initiative.

7. Requests the chairman of the summit to form a special committee composed of some of its concerned member states and the secretary general of the League of Arab States to pursue the necessary contacts to gain support for this initiative at all levels, particularly from the United Nations, the Security Council, the United States of America, the Russian Federation, the Muslim states and the European Union.

http://www.al-bab.com/arab/docs/league/peace02.htm





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TheKentuckian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-04-10 01:09 AM
Response to Reply #66
72. I don't think WE're going to have any luck either and were never intended to
even though shrub said that oil would compensate us for our...investment on "our welcome liberation" BUT you'll notice the multi-national oil companies got their leases. The resources aren't for us but rather for industry to exploit. Certainly, the plan appeared to be to topple Iran as well as part of the "axis of evil" Saudi Arabia and Canada play ball so there is no need for war to release their resources on the "free market".

Our shit is always and all about making a few wealthy folks richer than ever.

I believe Israel's purpose for the occupied territories is a buffer zone against their neighbors in the region that was conquered in a gang up attack to wipe Israel out and now offers some extra elbow room.
I don't see why they ever even alluded to giving up the areas since I don't have a clue why anyone thinks Israel should give up areas conquered in response to a hostile attack.
I don't think it is actually their intent to do so in the foreseeable future, if ever except maybe in exchange for full Arabic acceptance and an undisputed Jerusalem.

Nothing is to stop them from expanding settlements other than internal desire and/or response to external pressures.
The "natives" (remember that the marginal Palestinians were very sparse and others came to the area (significantly from Jordan) as a protest people against and to oppose Israel's existence) have to options to recognize Israel's right to exist and in what is now Israel, renounce and give up terrorism, and probably accept a two state solution that does not include Jerusalem at all for them.

The Jewish people of Germany at no point were engaged in widespread terror attacks over a period of decades (or indeed at all) nor did they elect a terrorist organization sworn to eliminate Germany from the face of the Earth. I don't see how the actions, behaviors, or beliefs of the Jew in Germany at all parallel the Palestinians in conquered territory.

I am a Zionist. I do not evade or attempt to minimize this. I understand and accept that others may not accept my opinions in these matters as credible because of that ideological belief.

I believe thousands of years of history throughly demonstrates that the rest of mankind cannot be trusted to allow the free existence of the Jewish people to this very day. I believe to ensure their independence and existence as a people that the Jewish people should have access their own state to live in forever, if they so elect.
I further believe that the only way to make sure Israel is allowed by the world to exist freely is they be armed in such away to repel any combination of attacks by their neighbors and if need be deterrent from attack or invasion from even a superpower.

I will be honest as I know how to be and seriously respond to the dialog but unless Israel actively threatened the world or engages in genocide then I will basically allow great latitude. I do not believe anyone should be hemmed into the conquered areas and if they wish to depart in peace they certainly should be able to. It is my usual practice to avoid hypocrisy but I'm willing to take my share in this area, if need be to preserve the Jewish people and their right to an independent state that can defend it's self against any aggressor.
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spanone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-03-10 03:36 PM
Response to Original message
61. selective application of law
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freddie mertz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-03-10 04:17 PM
Response to Original message
65. Does he think KILLING AN AMERICAN CITIZEN with 4 shots to the head...
Was somehow justified?

Tell that to the family.
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sabrina 1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-04-10 04:23 AM
Response to Reply #65
75. Disgraceful, isn't it? Other governments have stood up for their
Edited on Fri Jun-04-10 04:25 AM by sabrina 1
citizens, the Irish PM and President and Parliament eg, have demanded that no harm come to their citizens. Turkey is willing to break ties with Israel over the treatment of theirs and had they NOT stood up for their citizens, many of them would be sitting in Israeli jails, as was the intention of the Israelis, facing torture and convictions. Other nations also have demanded that their citizens be returned safely and threatened Israel with severe consequences if they are not.

But the VP of the U.S. rushes to defend a foreign nation and has NO concern for one of his own citizens. It is truly sickening. And yet, they expect us to believe that they are 'fighting terrorists' on our behalf?? Truly they must think we are stupid.

I never did like Biden. He talked a lot, sounded good on issues like Bush SC nominees, but then would go in and vote for them.

What a clusterfuck it all it.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-04-10 03:39 AM
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New Dawn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-04-10 11:24 PM
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78. Joe the Neocon Biden also wanted to break Iraq up into three easily controllable pieces.
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