TRY! Damn it all! TRY!

[Are_grits_groceries]

It's impossible.
The President can't plug the hole himself.
We don't have the technology.

Stop it!

If this were left up to some, Apollo 13 would be sadly going where no man had gone before.
The soldiers in the BEF and others would have died at Dunkirk.
I would have given in and be homeless on the streets or worse.

This is an area that is going to be gone for years if not more. If it is lost like this completely, then we are a piss poor country. If you won't fight for this, what will you fight for? What is worth demanding???

Demand more booms and pay the people to man them. Give them the proper equipment.
Use some of the ideas that people have offered.
Get every country and university that will help on this problem now at their labs. They may come up with something worth looking at.
Ask the wildlife people what they need to save as much wildlife as possible.
Give the people who live on the Gulf and are at the mercy of this horror by BP money just to survive.
Make BP pay for it up front or pull their US contracts. Find a way. If an argument can be made to kill an enemy of the US while they are in any country, then make an argument to move BP forward.

If you or a loved one were about to die or be horribly wounded, you would use everything at your disposal in any way you could. You would not stop until there was nothing left to try. You would ask for help from any area that could possibly provide it.

There is no sin in trying. The greatest fault is in not giving it every ounce of effort.
It all may be lost anyway, but it is a certainty to be lost if everything we have to give isn't done. There is everything left to lose including ourselves.

If you can truthfully say that everything possible has been done and you have given it all you have got, then you can look the people in the eye down there and say you tried. You can tell the future generations who will be affected that you tried. That all may be lost will still be an agony beyond belief. Those that you have tried to help will know that and you will be with them.

And the entire country will know that they stood up and gave it all they had. It won't be us and them it will be we.

Everybody may end up being defeated by this if we try, but there is something much worse. That is having everybody feel defeated by doing nothing and not caring. When you lose something dear, you do lose part of yourself. You lose yourself completely if you just let it go.

Try! Damn it all! Try!

[CaliforniaPeggy]

1. Abso-fucking-lutely!

Why aren't the powers that be doing just this?

:banghead:

[Mark D.]

136. As I've Said

This is a World Emergency. I can't say it enough. Every 'power that be', corporate, or nation, navy or oil company, should be chipping in, in some way. The Gulf isn't the only thing at risk. The oceans of the world are. That said, very simply, GOOGLE "oil eating bacteria" or search it on YouTube. It's not just out there, there is a lot of it in storage. It wasn't just tested in a lab. It was used to get rid of a huge oil spill's remnants years ago. It works. It's harmless natural bacteria that eats oil. Only oil. It turns it into a waste that marine life like to eat that is harmless to them. Once all the oil is gone, it dies quickly (it can't eat anything else). So there is nothing left after!

This is the simplest solution. It only needs to be sprayed over as much of the gulf as possible, and possibly injected at lower depths with submarines. What could probably be done in a week, and could probably eat the entire spill in a month or two. So effectively, that even if more oil leaks, it will just continue to eat that. Containment or not, if we can get rid of the oil coming out before it harms anything, it's a second-best solution. The video maker is literally yelling about how BP and the President SHOULD know about this. If they don't WE NEED TO TELL THEM. That's right DU. All of us, a letter writing campaign or emails to your Rep, Senator, and the prez.

[Hempathy]

2. Um...in case you haven't been paying attention...

THEY ARE TRYING.

:eyes:

[Are_grits_groceries]

4. No WE aren't!

Not with everything WE have!

You rolled your eyes at me. Well pick them up because I am rolling them back to you so you can see.

[Hempathy]

7. umm...okay...

whatever.

:eyes:

[liberation]

89. Life is so much better when approached as a grade school playground issue, ain't it?

It most certainly removes all that silly stuff like complexity and sophistication out of the way...

[ooglymoogly]

142. Looking at every possible solution no matter how kaleidoscopic

or how many resources it takes, is what nuance and complexity is all about. The OP is right, we are not even close to that. I would say we are still at the ham handed stage, as our home planet is taking a major blow and the beauty and wonder of our environment is being destroyed before our eyes. This should, nay, must be a Manhattan project or a NASA moonwalk project; Nothing else will do. It is way past time and it is sadly catastrophic, our leaders do not see this.

[Mark D.]

141. Good Point

Please at least respect the opinion of a fellow Liberal. As Chris Matthews pointed out, even a civilian force to help clean up the beaches would help. There are tankers sitting in ports that could be siphoning oil. But apart from that, let's not battle each other. Read my post above. There is an inexpensive, readily available, self-replicating source of a fix for this. Harmless natural bacteria that only eats oil, and craps out a safe food product for marine life, and self-destructs once the oil is all gone. It has worked in a previous oil spill. Not one drop is in use now, or even in consideration. This is a crime. We must all join together and call for this NOW!

[johnaries]

13. What, exactly, are WE not using?

Should we use a Saturn V rocket?

Some people are quick to criticize without offering anything to help.

[Hempathy]

16. well, you know- all that mile-deep oil disaster equipment we have on hand for just such an occurance

duh.


:sarcasm:

[Are_grits_groceries]

19. Please.

Write a letter to the people on the Gulf and tell them what is being done. Tell them how much they are being helped in their lives, the cleanup, and the gusher. Ask them what they see???

You will be asking the same questions using the same arguments after the elections too. It won't be just the people on the Gulf who are asking. It will be people who have never been called on to help in any way.

[Hempathy]

20. Yes- because oil is washing up on the beach, OBVIOUSLY nothing is being done...

:eyes:

[Are_grits_groceries]

22. NO.

....because booms that are god knows how old have been left to drift. Then they are touted as something being done.

....because a toxic dispersant has been used that is very harmful to living things and it was being used even after the government said no. And that is touted as something being done.

....because there are more people guarding the beach than trying to clean it.

[Hempathy]

25. So- what shifts have you signed up for so far...?

http://www.deepwaterhorizonresponse.com/go/page/2931/46359/

[Are_grits_groceries]

28. Please read post #8.

If all is being done and you are trying, then this thread shouldn't worry your pretty little head. The people on the Gulf shore should be able to reel off all the help they have gotten when you talk to them or read their LTTE.

[Hempathy]

50. so- you can't even sit behind a table and hand out cups of water, or man the sign-in sheets?

I'm sure that they need more help for the volunteers & workers there than just picking things up.

But- pounding out your nonsense on your keyboard probably helps the cause SO much more...:eyes:

[lark]

143. What cause?

According to your story book planet, BP and the government are devoting every single possible asset to this effort. Nothing else could possible be done.

:sarcasm:

[snagglepuss]

91. In times like these who needs the stress of interacting with sarcastic idiots.

The ignore function is invaluable. Besides that I agree completely with your OP.

[William Z. Foster]

61. foul

The validity of the other person's opinion has nothing to do with what they are or are not doing. That is a malicious and dishonest way to discredit them.

[glitch]

65. +not to mention transparent and ineffective and already smacked down once in this thread

edit: there should be a rule, only one fallacy per thread.

[bahrbearian]

106. Who is your employer?

[Mark D.]

144. Spread The Word!

You started this thread, thank you for that. Ignore the 'haters' mocking that we can't do more.
Here are the links. Start a petition/e-mail campaign to every politician you can. We can do it.

www.OilEatingMicrobes.com

http://www.heraldtribune.com/article/20100504/breaking/100509918

http://throughthesandglass.typepad.com/through_the_sandglass/2010/06/alcanivorax-borkumensis---oil-eating-bacteria-where-are-you.html

Good article below, but it's about one type that only works on land. Still it would be great to get the marshes and beaches cleaned up. They DO ignore a kind that is sprayed directly on the water with a firehose like system that DOES work in the oceans. It is out there.

http://www.abc.net.au/science/articles/2010/05/11/2896416.htm?site=science/askanexpert#artBookmarks

[lark]

140. Quit drinking the kool-aid, it's dangerous to your mental health

Yeah, the mile deep oil disaster PREVENTION equipment that BP and OUR government knew was malfunctioning and did absolutely nothing to fix. The mile deep disaster BACKUP Prevention mode was discarded as unnecessary - BP said they could immediately fix even a blowout of 250,000 barrels a day and we know how honest they and the MMS are.

What about the million miles of boom that should have been there waiting to be deployed, what about the containment devices which were not ready for weeks? What about the effort to clean up the mess?
Come on, what planet are you inhabiting?

[laughingliberal]

23. I'd be more convinced if I hadn't seen BP stonewalling Nick Pozzi.

I am at a loss to figure out why we wouldn't be calling in a man who successfully cleaned an 800 million gallon spill. Only one explanation for it and that's BP trying to cheap out on the cleanup. When I hear Pozzi has been brought in, I might believe they are serious.

[bobbolink]

31. .

:applause:

But, I think you didn't get the memo... several here think this is a call to diss the OP.

:( sigh.....

I will repeat... there are so many things we don't even TRY to improve in this society. Homelessness being one.

That's why this doesn't come as a surprise to me.

[LiberalLovinLug]

92. James Cameron's help was rejected

http://dailycontributor.com/bp-rejects-james-camerons-help-on-oil-spill/15699/

James Cameron and his knowledge of remote-controlled submarines have been turned down by British Petroleum, owner of the gushing oil well in the Gulf of Mexico. The “Avatar” director said a day after attending a brainstorming session aimed at coming up with a solution to the Gulf oil spill that BP has rejected his offer to help.

Cameron said that he was “graciously” turned down by the British energy giant, whose exploded oil rig has been contaminating the Gulf in what is now considered the worst oil spill in U.S. history. Cameron said he offered his help after observing how the oil spill is being handled.

“Over the last few weeks I’ve watched, as we all have, with growing horror and heartache, watching what’s happening in the Gulf and thinking those morons don’t know what they’re doing,” Cameron said without elaborating who were the “morons” he was referring to.

Cameron said he know a lot of “really, really, really smart people” who are trained to work at depths much greater than where the bustedoil rig is located. “They know the engineering that it requires to get something done at that depth,” Cameron said of the undersea experts he claims to know.

[Lorien]

132. The champions of "We can't do it!" never has comments for such things

other than to attack the messenger. Cameron offered, the Dutch offered, the UAE offered, independent groups offered...they won't allow anyone near the site except BP. :grr:

[stopbush]

153. Hate to disagree, but just trying everything is a recipe for worsening the disaster.

Just doing something sounds great but means nothing.

As far as the references to Apollo 13 etc, they're poorly drawn. To equate Apollo 13 to the BP oil spill, one would have to suggest that after Apollo 13 had its accident we asked the astronauts to "just try" to land on the moon to recover the garbage left there by Apollo 11.

Sure, it works in the movies where some brave, left-wing scientist just happens to have spent his entire life and his personal fortune developing a miracle cure, only to be scoffed at by his fellow scientists who come crawling back to him, begging him to use his new invention to solve the world's latest doomsday scenario. But that's the movies - or religion - not real life.

The people who have the best chance of plugging the leak are - unfortunately - the ones responsible for causing the leak. There's nothing to give anyone a reason to believe that some simple, magical solution has been sitting there the entire time, because it hasn't.

Look, if your auto mechanic screws up a repair on your car, the solution isn't to take your car to the faith healer. The first stop is to get your mechanic to make right on the repair he screwed up, and at no charge to you. If he can't fix it, then you look for a new mechanic. You don't head off to the supermarket and ask the butcher what he would do.

[glitch]

64. The problem is they've been focusing on salvaging the operation and limiting their liability NOT

on plugging the gusher.

The object should have been first and foremost plugging the gusher and attempting to save the environment. Other then sops for PR neither of those objectives were even on the agenda.

Leaving the response to this disaster to BP allowed them their agenda, not ours.

Result: catastrophic system failure.

[Capitalocracy]

87. Exactly! And what's more...

I seriously expect they're trying to find a way to make a profit on this. And why is everything BP controlled? Why are the beaches policed by the Coast Guard doing BP's bidding? Why is BP the only filter for ideas? Why is the only chemical being used to disperse the oil BP proprietary? Something smells here, and it's not just oil-soaked fish.

Please help me with this petition:

BP STANDS FOR BALLOT POISON

Pledge not to vote for any candidates receiving campaign donations from BP in 2010.

Petition: http://www.petitiononline.com/bp2010/petition.html

Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=113423272036102

Twitter: @bpballotpoison

[snagglepuss]

93. Bang on. nt

[jeff47]

127. Um.....

How, exactly, does delaying stopping the gusher limit their liability?

'Cause each drop that leaves the well increases their liability.

[glitch]

145. The whole point of lying about the amount and dispersing it is to make the number difficult to prove

That will help them in court. For information about it read Greg Palast's work on both the Exxon Valdez spill and this one.

[jeff47]

163. That doesn't answer the question at all.

The assertion above is that BP benefits by _delaying_ the capping of the well.

Whether they are lying or not doesn't address that. If anything, the longer the delay the more likely the lies will be uncovered.

So why would BP benefit from delaying the capping of the well?

[susanwy]

147. Winner, Winner Chicken Dinner!

I firmly believe the initial response was to salvage the well so they could get the oil, not stop the spill. I'm not cynical enough to believe this now, after 45 days of gushing oil, but I do believe BP thought early on they could contain and keep the well as a production well. Their failure is our great sadness and horror at the loss of an entire eco-system.

Susan

[lark]

137. Are they really, doesn't seem that way to me

Seems like BP is doing it's best to capture the oil coming out so they can refine and sell it, but after that their efforts are paltry. No way they are doing everything possible to mitigate this, they don't give a shit about that part and it shows in the lack of manpower on the ground.

Is our country doing the best we can - hell no! Again, where are the boots on the ground. Time after time we see pictures of the marshes and never is there anyone doing anything - unless it's the president coming to town and then the efforts are only where he is and soon as he's done so are the workers. I'm sure they have "some" people doing clean-up, but it's minimum and nowhere near what is needed.

Why is Thad Allen, who seems to be so much in love with BP, calling the shots? Despite the "firm" words, I see little remedial action from either party.

[truedelphi]

162. Much agree. Like why is Thad Allen still there?

Using the moon launch analogy, it is as though they pulled the real astronauts out of the game and put Thad Allen in Neil Armstrong's place..

Why?

On Anderson Cooper, Olmos, the star of movie "Stand and Deliver" was out on a boat explaining to Anderson that there were so many fisherman who already called up BP, went and did the training at "booming" school, by mid-May, and now BP refuses to let them do a thing. Nada. Nothing. Rien.

Why?

[flvegan]

155. IT'S ABOUT TIME!

[Hannah Bell]

3. kr

[Infinite Hope]

5. Perhaps you should take some time off work and drive down to volunteer...bring others with you. n/t

[Are_grits_groceries]

8. Oh, I knew this was coming.

I can't even walk half a mile. That doesn't mean what I say is worthless or that I am not trying everything that I can.

My reach is limited as a lot of people's will be in some way.

If people had taken that attitude throughout our history, we would have left causes such as civil rights or the election of the President to those areas that we were sure would were possible even if they were once unbelieveable. We would have stopped at our doorstep.

This is as much about direction, attitude, and empathy as it is about anything else.

[bobbolink]

10. AMEN!!

:applause:

[MerryBlooms]

39. We're all capable of doing more than we are and we all know it.

I'm physically and financially limited, but I know there is something I can do. The emails and etc ... don't make me feel very good. I'm used to being out on the lines.

But, I refuse to sit back and complain about those who are doing. I went through that when my kids were small. There was a core group of us parents who were the aids, room moms, team moms, score keepers, pta, etc ... (18 years for me in our districts) then there was the other 80% who sat back and complained about everything the 20% did, but never offered to help, for whatever reasoning.

There is a multitude of resources that point out the admins response from the beginning. There's also the weekly presidential address. Brunch with Bernie every Friday on Thom Hartmann ... there appears to be a massive effort deployed and has been from the beginning.

I truly believe the only way to stop the oil volcano is with the relief wells - which will take months. Then we need regulation that requires relief wells to be drilled for every existing well and any future ones ... because apparently this off-shore welling bullshit isn't going to end - which prohibiting this crap forever would be my choice.

[Are_grits_groceries]

40. No, I don't know it.

I don't believe there is an all out push to do everything. If you are, then you are satisfied and that is your right just as mine is mine.

[MerryBlooms]

45. I think there is a heckuva lot of red tape

Procedures are having to fight through. For instance the berms that Gov. Jindal wanted to build. A study had to be done before it could be done - so, some berms have the ok, some don't. The booms were deployed haphazardly and not efficient ... a hurry up and get it done attitude there. imo

Yes, we'll have to disagree that there's an all out push to do everything possible. None of us are satisfied with the circumstances. We're watching the life being choked out of the Gulf - there's no silver lining to be found here.

[Scruffy1]

122. These berms will be useless

They are simply a cover your ass strategy by an oil drenched political whore to look like a good guy. Haley Barbour and Jindal are totally owned by the oil companies. The first storm will wash away these sand piles. Why do you think the barrier islands ans wetlands are important? Because their vegetation holds them together. These assholes have been allowing the oil companies to destroy wet lands for years and have never rejected an oil company proposal. Now their chickens are coming home to roost. They booms are not very effective as oil can go under them especially after it was treated with dispersant. The birds will die whether they are washed or not. This bullshit myth that wildlife can be saved after getting coated with crude is just plain cruel. The best course would be euthanasia. Just some assholes getting some money. If you want clean water and beaches then you can't have cheap gas for your SUV. The nonsense I've seen posted all over the internet since the spill convinces me how clueless Americans are when it comes to math and science.

[William Z. Foster]

59. well said

Fight back. Why is there such fierce hostility to this?

Great post, great thread. Keep up the great work.

How dare someone say that your opinion is to be dismissed on this basis? Shame on them.

[DonCoquixote]

71. Bravo

Your quote:

"This is as much about direction, attitude, and empathy as it is about anything else."

May I humbly offer an adjustment?

This is as MORE about direction, attitude, and empathy than anything else, because if we cannot muster those three things, life not only becomes hopeless, it becomes WORTHLESS! The main reason we are in this sorry state is because, on ALL SIDES OF THE POLITICAL SPECTRUM, from glib Greens to squishy centrists to fox fascists, we have ALL shown ourselves wnating on all three of these measures!

[Mojorabbit]

26. They are not letting people do that

It is being centrally managed and they don't want just anyone there helping even if they have some hazmat training.
It is pissing a lot of people off.

[Are_grits_groceries]

32. Who and why are they doing that are

questions that should be asked???

Centrally managed by who for what purpose???????

[grahamhgreen]

74. How bout we seize all of BP's cash and pay people to go down there?

[stopbush]

154. Or, we could just all keep buying BP products and filling their coffers

so they have the resources to stop the leak, pay for the clean-up and the law suits, and reimburse the injured.

Hate to tell you, but this is the most-likely scenario for getting the greatest number of civilians involved in the clean up.

[bahrbearian]

102. Heh Heh . you said " DRIVE "....idiot

[SammyWinstonJack]

113. -1

:eyes:

[sandnsea]

6. They ARE!

Read something besides Gloom & Doom Digest.

[Are_grits_groceries]

9. Why is it THEY???

It should be WE, and we all should be involved somehow.

[Are_grits_groceries]

11. When did 'yes we can'

turn into 'Yes they are?'

[Name removed]

12. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[sandnsea]

15. Here. Sign Up.

http://www.deepwaterhorizonresponse.com/go/page/2931/46359/

[bahrbearian]

108. You 1st , I'll pay for your GAS

We appreciate your concern and willingness to help.

[anigbrowl]

139. Because...

Most of us don't live in the region, have a boat, have booms, know anything about animal or environmental decontamination, and so on.

There are about 20,000 people working on this last time I looked. The only thing that hasn't been done is to set up some dot of charity account and beg the American people for donations, but given the nature of the disaster that would just be letting BP off the hook.

It's a terrible situation. I share your anger and frustration, although past incidents in the same area, which were worse in quantity terms, suggest that the environmental damage isn't permanent : the current and weather systems there are dynamic enough to offset the effects in the longer term. But wringing your hands over it while dismissing the major efforts being made on a daily basis is no help at all.

[bahrbearian]

103. I do read other things than Doom and Gloom, I read CLEARS CUT are Good

oh I forgot you live near a Old Growth Tree

[tabasco]

14. Imagine the President pulling NASA off the moon mission and taking personal charge

of the situation. That would have worked great, huh? :eyes:

[Are_grits_groceries]

17. Keep it up.

That's the same old argument posted over and over.

I didn't expect him to knock on every door in the last election either. Nor did I expect him to call every voter.

I expected him to use his eloquence and passion to reach people and to put people as effective as Axelrod, Jarrett, and Plouffe in charge. If they didn't work, I expected him to try something else and not take his voters and go home.

[tabasco]

34. You're the little choo choo that could!

Try! Try! Try!

You'll get up that hill!

[Are_grits_groceries]

37. Mock and snark about the crisis.

Please call the people on the Gulf and tell them that.

[glitch]

66. All they got.

Please don't let them get to you. :hug:

[liberation]

90. Indeed....

... the "hope" brigade sure turns nasty when it comes to put up, not just talk the talk... don't they?

[obxhead]

118. indeed, the cheerleaders are the first to say

it's not his job or responsibility to help on many issues. It blows my mind.

[fascisthunter]

47. fail

[tabasco]

55. Scintillating retort.

Very original too.

[glitch]

67. Mirror.

Not original but quite appropriate. Take a look back at your responses on this thread.
What exactly are you aiming for here?

[Kalun D]

29. Imagine

Imagine the pres removing the criminal perpetrators from the crime scene, where they are running things only in their own self interest, and bringing other experts in to run the show. Certainly there are other experts in existence.

[tabasco]

35. Maybe you can name some of those other experts in the non-profit world.

Not affiliated with any of those criminal oil companies.

[Are_grits_groceries]

43. Please Google and check all the

universities with petroleum engineering schools. That's a start. Some of them are probably not completely under the thumb of BP.

[tabasco]

54. How many of those universities have operational wells?

Book knowledge is not what you need 5000 feet under the ocean.

[William Z. Foster]

60. LOL

You HAVE to be kidding.

What good is "book knowledge" when a space craft is thousands of miles away?

Unbelievable.

[Grinchie]

135. Oh Please.. Engineers are the most tightly coupled nest of rats in the world.

An Honest Engineer is at the whim of a huge consotium of control, and is totally subjected to the "You'll Never Work In This Town Again" attitude that permeates anything that might piss off a peer that pulls the strings.

They have to tow the line, or have their liveliehood taken away from them, and if that happens, the bankers move in, the family crumbles, and they are ruined.

No, Engineers walk a very fine line, and are quite willing to omit key details in order to play Cover My Ass for the special interests that run all the special Associations, review boards, etc..

You every wonder why Building 7 was not included in the 9/11 report? It's easy, because they could not explain it without looking like total fools, so they just didn't allow any discussion of it, nor did they even allow it in the documented record, which would have been their undoing.

This is the typical way that so called "Scientists" are able to lie with a straight face, with no accountability. Focus so narrowly that nothing of value ever makes it into the written record.

[William Z. Foster]

58. yes

Of course it would. It did. The role of the White House is to lead, not to do the actual work - obviously.

Absolutely the power and authority and funding for the Apollo 13 rescue came from the executive branch, and the President leads the executive branch. No two ways about that.

I guess the WPA projects didn't happen - what did FDR know about any of that? And it had nothing to do with who was in the White House either. Why, Hoover would have done the same things.

[bahrbearian]

104. In case you didn't notice Obama scrubbed future moon missions

[Name removed]

18. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Kalun D]

21. K and R, GOOD POST

To all the people on the thread saying they/we are doing everything they can

BULLSHIP

the booms are undermanned and improperly set up

Maddow reporting on the booms
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=385&topic_id=471790&mesg_id=471790

an anonymous boom expert's vid on the boom fail (language alert)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=385x472104

How come Obama is letting BP run the cleanup? Leaving the criminals in charge of the crime scene, with the Coast Guard repeating their talking points and lowball numbers on the amount.

How come there are no tanker skimmers like they had in the big Saudi spill that recovered 70% of the spill? Rumor is that all of BP's tanker are full and they don't want to offload because there's a glut of oil right now and it would drive down the price.

How come they are allowed to use dispersants? The White House told them to stop and they didn't. Why didn't the WH force them to stop?
All the dispersants do is make it worse, they just hide the amount and make it harder to clean. This dispersant has been banned in BP's home country of Britain. The MSDS for it requires a respirator. How come BP is allowed to prevent the workers from using respirators because it's a bad image?

THIS CLEANUP IS JUST ONE BIG FAIL

BP should not be trusted at all. Their safety record is the worst in the industry. Seize all their US assets, like they do with drug dealers. Use the money to run the booming properly and hire the tankers to come in and skim.

[snagglepuss]

94. Hear. Hear. nt

[obxhead]

120. add: Why is the US coast guard work side by side with BP to

limit reporting on this spill and it's true size? Why is anyone in our government BLOCKING the press a CLEAR constitutional violation?

[Grinchie]

138. Oh Man, if that isn't the elephant in the room...

"How come there are no tanker skimmers like they had in the big Saudi spill that recovered 70% of the spill? Rumor is that all of BP's tanker are full and they don't want to offload because there's a glut of oil right now and it would drive down the price."

Thanks for posting this question..

Anyobody that has been paying attention will know that for many months, the main oil storage facilities have been full. We also know that Goldman Sach's was leasing tankers in order to speculate on Oil futures...

Your rumor has a lot of basis in external evidence that needs to be exposed for what it is.

It's kind of funny, but there is this thing called the Strategic Oil Reserve, and it happens to be located in the Gulf States... Just think of all the capacity they have to sequester the oil they might skim off, yet, we allow them to disperse the oil into an emulsion with a toxic petroleum based chemical that has been banned in Britain....

This just keeps getting better and better.

[lark]

158. Amen !!

[Odin2005]

24. +1,000,000,000,000,000,000

[laughingliberal]

27. K & R nt

[L0oniX]

30. According to some here ...that oil gusher is just evolution.

:eyes:

[tomm2thumbs]

77. I almost tried to squoosh that 'buggie'

too funny, and I've seen a few, but that was real-size! <g>

[obxhead]

123. me too, reached right out to crush it

:rofl:

[tomm2thumbs]

152. thanks, I feel much less the idiot!

and much more in a class of idiots hehehehhe j/k

[CountAllVotes]

33. Iran and other countries offered their help

all we "accepted" were offers of help from two countries. One of them was Norway and the other one was Mexico.

The U.S.A. snubbed Iran's offer. I never heard that America even bothered to reply to their generous offer to help us realizing that this is a global problem that affects everyone. But no, we must bomb bomb bomb Iran right? :evilfrown: :(

I agree, bring it on and accept any/all help offered regardless of WHO the bearer of such assistance may be!

:dem: :kick: & recommend. !!

[Codeine]

36. Iran's vast experience with mile-deep offshore oil wells?

Puh-lease.

[CountAllVotes]

49. how do you know?

Been to Iran lately and monitored/assessed what their drilling practices are in the Persian Gulf? Are you some sort of an expert in this field?

I think there might be a few in Iran aka Persia fyi.

:dem:

[glitch]

68. +++ nt

[piedmont]

157. Persian Gulf's maximum depth is 300 ft. nt

[DonCoquixote]

72. ER Yes

Namely because back when Saddam was our buddy in the Iran-Iraq war, his favorite tactic was to create ecological disasters, the same technique he used on us later. Sadly, they may be the most qualified. Yes, I know they are religious fundies, but frankly, any port in a storm.

[glitch]

117. Gee I wonder where he got that idea? Shock and awe using low-hanging fruit?

Sounds awfully familiar.

[Codeine]

161. I really don't think clean-up was high on the

mullahs' "to do" list. They have no deep-water wells; the average depth of the Persian Gulf is about a hundred-fifty feet and it maxes out around twice that. They did start drilling an exploratory well in the Caspian Sea (a much deeper body of water) this year, but it's a brand-new venture for them and I can't find a mention of the water depth where they have begun drilling.

[Jamastiene]

38. K&R

[laughingliberal]

41. K & R nt

[treestar]

42. I'm sure he is

But life is not a movie, where is happens in 1.2 minutes.

[Are_grits_groceries]

44. No, life is one

unexpected thing after another. It shouldn't take a month to have some kind of work to be set up on the Gulf to start any cleanup.

Call the people on the Gulf and ask what help is on their shores and what monetary help they are receiving if they have been shut down.

If Jindal is sitting on it, then ask the government why it isn't being funneled straight to the parishes.

[Trillo]

46. That's it in a nutshell. K&R

While we need a Manhattan type project for alternative forms of energy, at this very moment the most critical problem is getting the damn Gulf oil hole plugged. That said, I know of no one better suited than Steven Chu to facilitate such an effort.

Whether he has enough resources at his disposal, who knows.

[fascisthunter]

48. DIdn't ya know, the government is doing... well, BP is doing, well....

oh nevermind

[northofdenali]

51. A. Fucking. Men.

We will NOT give up, quit, despair, run, leave or lose hope.

We are better than that.

We WILL fix this. I believed after Exxon Valdez. I believe now. We WILL.

:loveya:

[chill_wind]

52. 29,000 gallons of oil an HOUR. Dutch skimmers offered on April 23

can suck up (however, imperfectly) 29,000 gallons an hour. Multiply that by the day and for a whole month gone by. NOW it's said we've asked for them and they are somewhere en route. We can't go back to undo that fateful decision of rejecting their help millions and millions of gallons ago, but we have to let go of the hubris that insists that ONLY WE can have the solutions.

"Get every country and university that will help on this problem now at their labs. They may come up with something worth looking at."

Yes. On that much, we should be on our knees.

"If an argument can be made to kill an enemy of the US while they are in any country, then make an argument to move BP forward."

Yes. Now that we've permanently accepted and embraced the power of the unitary executive, that shouldn't be nearly as hard as it seems.

-------------------------------------
(edit to correct date in title)

[snagglepuss]

95. +1000.000.0000

[bahrbearian]

109. PLUS ME

[BlancheSplanchnik]

53. YES!!!!

I think we all are going to need voices like this for the long haul now.

I keep wanting to throw up, sob, curl up in a corner....


You've posted a lot of important essays, grits, but this one feels especially vital right now.

[GeorgeGist]

56. As you can readily see from some your detractors ...

they never bought "The Audacity of Hope".

[emilyg]

57. K/R

[Captain Hilts]

62. BRAVO!!!!!

[tnlefty]

63. Thank you!

I think it was last Sat. morning on CNN one of the male anchors had some folks on the air who had ideas. The one that really got to me was a man who had some sort of baked and processed peat moss. He had an aquarium of water, put oil into it with transmission fluid or something, and he put his peat moss in and as soon as it hit it began soaking up the oil and within a minute or two he skimmed it off the top and it was gone and the water was clean.

He mentioned that this would be very helpful in the marshes, etc., and that he'd contacted the Coast Guard weeks ago about it and he was blown off. That has bugged the hell out of me since.

[nashville_brook]

69. spot on.

[Jennicut]

70. Sorry but the Gulf was screwed the minute the leak happened.

Too much oil spewing out at a fast rate, too much difficulty getting the leak stopped 5000 feet below. Why some people won't come to grips with it is beyond me. Of course the cleanup could be better but it would make a smidgen of difference. We are controlled by processes on Earth. We need to admit that we cannot control everything. Then maybe we will stop playing around with Mother Nature and Earth and respect it some more.

[Yavin4]

73. Once the Oil Hits The Water

There's nothing that anyone can do.

[pundaint]

75. This is like arguing for a 6-thousand year old world. Science just doesn't support your position.

Until there is a proven capability to work at a given depth to fix any possible problems, oil drilling should not be allowed at that depth. That is the failure of every administration including this one. We hire these people to keep us safe from the industries they regulate. Government has been failing to do tis duty.

Congressional oversight committees not only don't oversee, they don't demand the information to do their job with even if they were disposed to do it. Presidents appoint or retain in position proven failures in the areas that they are to oversee. And now that we know our elected officials haven't done their job on our behalf, if we ratify that performance by returning them to office, we will not be doing our job.

But the failure was in oversight and control - not in behavior since it became apparent that BP lied about important facts during the permitting process. Think of it this way - there's a little hole holding back a lake of oil under great pressure. That hole is the drill pipe. If, in an attempt to close that pipe, more deep holes are made, there's a lot more oil that could be coming out where we couldn't even get to to try to stop it.

[eagertolearn]

76. My son said that somewhere on this planet they actually put

a small nuclear bomb in a leak like this and it melts the thing shut. Maybe we should try that?

[obxhead]

125. It can create a glass effect, that tends to be brittle

and fail rather rapidly. Another possible scenario of an attempt to use a nuke would be blowing a far larger hole in the sea floor that is irreparable, leaving a far larger volcano of oil that is now radioactive.


Lets not try that experiment IMO.

[Starry Messenger]

78. k & r

[Catherina]

79. Rec'd n/t

[Lorien]

80. Can you imagine any of this when Carter, Clinton, or even Nixon and Ford were President?

Once upon a time we took care of America and Americans. Disasters would strike and all hands were on deck the very next day. Since Dubya it's been "no one could have foreseen..." "It was impossible to anticipate..." "We did all that we could, but it was someone else's responsibility..." "we were given incorrect information..." It's as if we are suddenly living a scene out of idiocracy.

[bahrbearian]

105. Idiots, its the Neolib influence

[suzie]

111. Gee, when Clinton was President, we were treated to Waco.

Or have you conveniently forgotten? In which Bill Clinton waited weeks until the polling indicated what he should even say about it.

And you somehow want us to believe that the man who left his subordinates twisting in the wind would have immediately done something about this situation?

If you need to disparage Obama, for whatever personal reasons, just be honest about about it.

[William Z. Foster]

128. Waco?

You are comparing Waco to the Gulf catastrophe?

[suzie]

149. I didn't make the comparison, but Waco was the first big disaster of the Clinton

presidency, which the poster claims was always in "all hands on deck" mode. And that the mode changed only after the Clinton presidency.

As I recall, there were some fairly significant disasters during the Carter and Nixon years that weren't handled very well. I just detailed the first one that came to mind.

In which the poster's insinuations were incorrect.

[William Z. Foster]

156. this makes no sense

Sorry.

So what if there had never been an "all hands on deck" mode under any president. What does that have to do with this crisis?

[Lorien]

130. Yes, Waco was a mess, but comparing it to this catastrophe is absurd.

And it's not about "disparaging Obama"; it's about the forces at work here; Corporations seized control when Dubya took office, and they haven't loosened their grip since. Wake up to who is REALLY in charge!

Like the song says "You're so vain, you probably think this song is about you." Some things are a hell of a lot more important than politics.

[suzie]

148. You're the one who started in with your most current trashing of Obama by

comparing the Horizon response to disasters of other presidents. Waco was the first one that occurred on Clinton's watch.

He was not "all hands on deck" as you incorrectly stated.

[Goldstein1984]

81. The response has not been a model of effectiveness

The system that was supposed to protect human health and the environment failed in this case. Prevention failed. Response has largely failed. Even the capping of the discharge has only succeeded in reducing a catastrophic discharge to a smaller catastrophic discharge.

A long-term trend in reducing government oversight is partly responsible for this, but so is a systemic failure of the system that was left in place. Complacency, political influence and corruption were the root causes of this situation. This is all important stuff, but it can be fixed later.

The bullet has left the barrel of the gun. The spill response organization will likely only be successful at protecting habitat in a fraction of attempts. The sad truth is that the future of the Gulf of Mexico and everything else within reach of this spill has more to do with fate than with the spill response. Weather and currents and other chaotic factors are the real incident commanders in this event now.

There just isn't enough equipment or enough people or enough time to respond to a spill of this size.

I would say that the anger at BP, Congress, Bush/Cheney and Obama/Biden does no good, but I believe that it's responsible for improving the spill response so far. I believe the response effort has been largely a function of public outrage. And that outrage will be necessary to ensure that change happens to minimize the chances of another event like this one.

[newtothegame]

82. Don't put pressure on this President. He has to look cool.

[woo me with science]

84. Some would have him wearing a Cinderella dress. nt

[Lorien]

83. Give this guy a shot:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x8501392

[suzie]

110. No. As one who lives on the Gulf Coast, NO.

[enki23]

85. try what? hire the same fucking engineers to do the same fucking things, but at taxpayer expense?

Fine, maybe we can boom the entire coast (good luck with that). But... what, university labs? First, this is currently an engineering problem, not a scientific problem. Secondly, do you have any idea how long it takes to "come up with something" in a lab? I work in a lab, in fact. In aquatic toxicology. I have a bit of a feel for the pace of scientific discovery. We're not going to magically create a super oil eating bug which will grow like crazy, voraciously eat crude, eat nothing else, shit out homeopathic crystal flower remedies, and which we can assure everyone with the utmost confidence is strictly organic, wasn't genetically engineered, wasn't tested on animals, and will be ready by the end of summer.

But hey, maybe we can just use The Secret to wish it all into an alternate dimension. I'm sure there are labs working on that as we speak.

As for the rest, I'm completely in favor of screwing BP up down and sideways till the end of time, or till they no longer exist. Fine by me. But that has nothing whatsoever to do with solving the pressing problem *right now*. Nothing. Nada. Fucking Zilch.

[Capitalocracy]

86. Yes, hire the same engineers at taxpayer expense

Then send the bill to BP.

We don't know what kinds of conflicts of interest are at play here. I find the discrepancy between the reported possible technologies that could be used and what they're actually doing to be suspicious. I'm not so sure they'd just be doing the same fucking thing.

BP STANDS FOR BALLOT POISON

Pledge not to vote for any candidates receiving campaign donations from BP in 2010.

Petition: http://www.petitiononline.com/bp2010/petition.html

Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=113423272036102

Twitter: @bpballotpoison

[liberation]

88. This is not about you or me, trying or not. It is about one thing alone PROFIT

The people in charge are just like religious fanatics thinking the invisible being in the sky is going to make things right. They truly believe the "magic" of the free market will somehow fix this.

That is why we are not using the boats to scoop the oil, because doing so would interfere with their intended economic purpose which is in no where shape or form related to scoop oil from the ocean just because (where is the "profit" in that?). This is why there are no academics at hand that can work on a solution, because all the research right now is financed via grants which are only granted if there is a clear benefit to industry... and no one in industry is interested in preserving nature just for the hell of it (again where is the profit in that?). This is why the president is not commanding our armed forces, on which we spend over half of our half earned tax dollars, to clean up... because our department of "defense" does many things but actually defend you and I (because you guessed it, there is no profit in keeping a moderately sized armed forces tasked simply with our defense). What they think is that somehow, the market will come up with a solution out of the ether, and things will be dandy. In fact the solution their beloved markets will come up with... will be the most optimal and bestest one. It is truly lunacy at a grandiose scale.


As long as we put faith in invisible hands guiding a totally abstract concept like "markets" we're just demonstrating that we don't really have a game plan as a species, we just don't know what the fuck is going on or what we're doing. That is why we put our destiny in hands of things we can't see. Disasters like these make that last point all too obvious.

Time to wake up and smell the coffee, or oil in this case.

[liberation]

96. PS

Obama at the end of the day can't do a shit about this (or almost any major item really), doing so would require the US government to take a role which would lead any president of being accused of trying to extend the powers of the government to a reach they don't feel comfortable with.

Corporations first, the rest will follow. For better or worse, that is the prevalent mindset in this country.

Oh, well... thanks for all the fish I guess...

[Are_grits_groceries]

98. It would make them feel uncomfortable???

The people on the Gulf are beyond uncomfortable.

The powers of the government have been extended in so many ways in the guise of 'national security' that they don't seem to have a limit there.

In order to make a move like that possible, the message has to be framed as WE as a whole country need to move for it to be effective.

I know of few people who can reach people like President Obama can. He needs to use his bully pulpit and his eloquence to try to make this a common cause. That kind of power is is a force to be reckoned with.

It isn't a simplistic choice between reason or rage. On one end is Carville and the message gets lost in the method. The other end is Dr.Spock where the message is the method in many ways.

There is a third option and that is passion. Passion can be in the form of rage or anger. It can also be an intense emotional response of empathy and outreach. That is what is missing and it is baffling and frustrating. I know President Obama is capable of reaching people with that.

Passion doesn't mean out of control and flailing about. It is an intensely focused drive. It isn't in opposition to the calm nature that people tout. It is a power of a calm that can lead a storm that is already there.

If he cannot take the lead with a passion that the American people feel, then somebody else will try to harness it and use it against him.

I would love for this to be a time in history where it was possible to debate all points before moving. A moment where a gusher or an Iran or 2 wars weren't on the doorstep. Some events can't be waited on because they are moving to fast and threaten too much such as the gusher. '

With 'all deliberate speed' is a historical phrase that has deep meaning. Either the speed or the deliberate can take too much control and cause no movement or an uncontrolled one. Every event calls for a mixture of the two and this is one where the speed needs to be be considered much more.

This isn't just about the Gulf. This has far reaching consequences especially at an election time. Symbolism does matter no matter how much it is denied because when people vote there will be some symbol that is behind their choice.

In 2008, the symbol was a man with hope, change, and a determination to use them. That overrode years of messages about race that were still strong. Enough people saw that symbol and they ignored the hate and the false notions behind it.

What will the symbol be now??

Will it be the oilcam and Tony Hayward? Will it be the economic problems and the long, seemingly unending road ahead. Or will it be PRESIDENT OBAMA going forward and moving no matter what the odds on all fronts. He may not be able to replace those images completely, but he better give them a damn good run for their money.

In 2008, he knew he would have to go around the MSM and the regular Dem Party and their methods to get his message home. As President, he will have to find a way to do that again with himself and those he can use. He will have to try!

As constrained as he may be by that bubble of security and advisors now that he is President, he has to find a way to pierce it and use an eloquent passion to reach the country.

I am not against President Obama as many people try to claim. I believe at this point he is not only the first best hope, he may also be the last. The crises in this country have doubled down the stakes. From Palin and what she represents and the other hate groups that are trying to run under the radar to the opposition that is trying to fight them, this may be for it all when the hands are played.

All we have to fear is fear itself. If that rules the day instead of hope, change, and the progress that has been made and what is else is being tried to help the people in this country, then the stampede of regression into you're on your own will run everybody over.

Either lead, follow, or you will be crushed because you will be in the way of the frightened and frightening storm.

[liberation]

150. I don't like it any more than you do. But that is the reality of the situation

But this is the system what the majority of Americans decided (or were told) long ago they felt comfortable with. Is it myopic? yes. It is suicidal? Obviously since any system which expects infinite growth will at some point in time come into a clear conflict with the finite nature of our planet. We are seeing simply the chickens starting to get back home to roost.

Sincerely, the only thing Obama can do is to put a friendlier face to the PR communiques to try to keep the population happy and at peace. The minute he starts demanding the actual solutions be implemented, it will be the minute that some seriously powerful interests feel their bottom lines are threatened, and Mr. Obama will be promptly terminated. We never really came to grasps with the political assassinations from the 60s. We simply decided that looking away and moving on was the best thing to do, without fully understanding the ramifications from that.

The sad realization is that regardless of how some of the people in the gulf region (or in the rest of the world for that matter) may feel about their environment being tarnish for the foreseeable future. The fact is that the majority of the people there and elsewhere simply DO NOT GIVE A DARN.

People want to have stability, they want to have their blinders on because they don't want to cope with complexity. They want to have mundane jobs which allow them to buy mundane gadgets so that they can have a fake sense of security, stability, and at the end of the day... as I said... have a shelter in their homes from complexity. People, esp. in this country, want their selfishness and prick attitudes validated.

They most definitively don't want to hear that shit just got real, and it hit the fan. They don't want to hear that they will have to make compromises, or that their expectations for the standard of living they feel entitled to are simply not sustainable. We've devolved into a society of 5 year olds. We're more likely to get to the streets to protest the cable company not giving prompt service if the link for the town goes down for more than a couple of days, than we're to protest real stuff like insane wars of choice, the lack of proper universal health care coverage, the demolishing of the public school system, the destruction of the American middle class, etc, etc.

Obama's campaign regarding "change" was just that a PR campaign. It is just a slogan. It is not a real product, because real "change" for most Americans would be unacceptable. There is nothing that the average American hates more that being told they have to make compromises or that they have to actually change their ways. Change is most threatening to the intellectually lazy. And we are a nation of dimwits, who sent a man to the moon and then went back to grace at our collective navels because a few people could not figure out how to make money from exploring space.

This is the reality of things. And it is not exclusive to Americans. Humans at large is a species that never came to grasp with our self awareness, empathy, and wisdom (intelligence). The average human at the end of the day is a slightly more evolved monkey. Look at how most of us are willing to kill and do anything for a shiny piece of metal for example. We are just that, monkeys... however we are able to make more damage than any other species combined. And we never fully understood our responsibility as the apex life form in this planet. We have never sat down and talk about what our game plan is, we're making it up as we go. And we don't understand that nature is a rather cruel teacher.

At the end of the day, the spill will run out. The massive amounts of oil will then dilute into the Atlantic. Untold amount of wild life will be affected. But since the average person now lives in a city, they will not notice. BP will get back to exploit that well. And in a few months, most people will have forgotten about this. The people in the vicinity will be fucked, but just like Katrina, just like Iraq, just like Afghanistan, just like Darfur, just like Congo, just like Ethiopia, just like basically the yearly catastrophe... it will be out of sight out of mind for most people. Rinse, repeat... we have seen this movie so many times.

[lark]

159. Don't buy it

No matter what he does, the Repugs will have cow, that's what they do, doesn't matter what he does. So, ignore them and do what's right. Stop the fucking drilling until we have stringent new safety stds., the oil companies have implemented them AND they have been tested. No new wells, period. Announce that we are in the middle of a disaster and implement hazmat training courses all around the Gulf and get people started. Remove BP from any clean up efforts. Have our scientists measure the flow from the well. Get credible measures started. End the dispersants yesterday. It goes on and on - but nothing much is happening because our President just wants to be liked and is getting totally rolled by BP.

[snagglepuss]

97. You nail it.

[Lorien]

131. That about sums it up

the magic of the free markets will destroy our home and us along with it.

[Grinchie]

99. The Powers that Be made their decisions,, Now they must be held accountable.

You are a fool to think that any intelligent person would subject themselves to the toxic waste that is contaminating the shores of the gulf for any price.

Unfortunately, there and many uneducated, desperate souls that will sell their health and future for a quick buck toiling in the toxic sun for BP, all for short term gain.

The key to all of this is to fight the right battles, and avoid the ones that are unwinnable, or are to costly in terms of future health to wage.

Sorry to sound like a jerk, but the reality is that their is nothing to do at this point other than watch a lengthy process of natural bioremediation occur over a period of at least 50 years or more.

It's not like you can flip a switch and fix this tragedy, other than by taken the other path using Tesla technology in the 30's instead of glomming onto greed and oil which drove the latter half of the 20th century.

The government has gotten what it paid for by allowing Oil to reighn supreme, while shorting alternative energy research, or hiding it as a natural course of "National Security".

Hogwash.

Perhaps if their were Universal Healthcare, more people would have the will to sacrifice their future for the common good, but since we do not have Unversal Healthcare, it's every man for himself.. Sorry, but that the bottom line., and you can thank the Democrats for that.

[Are_grits_groceries]

100. Please read post #98.

I'd rather be a fool who tried to move somebody to get something done, than one who waited for the seemingly inevitable to happen.

When I told my students to do something, one of them said,'All I have to is breath and die.' That about summed up the stark bottom line for any of us. However between the 2 are choices and consequences if one makes them.

Even now there are choices to make or we are going to be down to pretty much 'breath and die.'

[Grinchie]

133. Without getting into a pissing contest, I choose to fight battles I can win.

Unfortunately, when I did this to help Obama get elected, I learned the hard way that I fought the wrong battle. He is worse than Bush, and everybody except the vested cheerleaders know it.

While you make try to assert that I am doing nothing for the planet, you are very wrong. I maintain a refuge, a biological reserve of unspoiled beauty for future use. If I was not working every day to protect it, it would be gone.

So I choose to fight the battles where I stand on favorable ground, and that means ground that is healthy and full of life, and not fouled with toxic sludge that is wasted on Hummers and War.

The fact of the matter is that the people with the vested interests in the Gulf are flailing about without real scientific guidance, and that is the biggest tragedy of all. Most of the really basic educational material on the toxicity of Oil and tar has been removed from modern textbooks, and it is doubtful that it is common knowledge that the most effective way to induce Cancer in lab animals is to apply oil or tar onto the animal for about 2 weeks. Either topically or subcutaneously.

Today, they breed special GMO Cancer mice instead, and thus, the knowledge that Oil is highly toxic and carcinogenic is lost in the passages of time...

The breathe and die statement from your student is actually quite prescient in regards to the Gulf Spill. Especially since one has to consider that the Oil is subjected to the Tropical sun for about 12 hours a day, which is equivalent to a 1000 Watt Lightbulb of every square meter of land or sea. Of course, this coupled with tropical heat is going to create some hellish vapors and atmospheric pollution.

I don't know what to say about this terrible scenario, but there is no way in hell that you would find me volunteering to subject myself to that type of experiment without having rock solid assurances that I would be looked after when the inevitable health effects appear. It has come down to that I am afraid, and I have no shame in looking out for myself.

In no way could I ever recomend that people get near that stuff without adequate compensation for the risks involved. It's not ethically correct, and depends on people being unaware of the dangers.

[Are_grits_groceries]

151. "I choose to fight battles I can win" I choose to fight the battles that are worth fighting.

By the time you fight the battles you can win, the war may be over. In addition, there are some battles you may never see the end of. The best that you can do is give your all and hand the hope off for the next group to push. That's how many things get accomplished.

You may also suddenly find yourself in the middle of an unexpected battle. It may be like someone trying to force you or your beliefs into a dark alley by physical means or using the law as they bend it. You do have a choice. Fight or give yourself up to a much more negative and uncertain result.

I don't know of many battles that you will get a guarantee of winning.

We can agree to disagree on this.

[Greyhound]

126. Power.... accountable...

:rofl:

[Grinchie]

134. If it weren't so shameful, I'd be laughing too.

[Greyhound]

160. It's just that we have never held the power accountable for their crimes in this nation.

How many people know that, after taking 18 months off @ the real Club Fed to write his book, Michael Milken still has a net worth of ~$2,000,000,000?

The pensions he ripped off are still gone and those people still lost everything, but he walks away a billionaire. Go back to the 1930's, how many of the rich & powerful backers of the Business Plot were even charged?

I know you probably know this, but it kicks the thread.
:kick::shrug:

[LawnKorn]

101. K&R

[DailyGrind51]

107. Tell BP to get out of the way, sink an obsolete warship filled with concrete over the hole,

and NATIONALIZE all BP Gulf Coast operations!

[Are_grits_groceries]

112. This is a perfect example: Booming School

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2010/5/11/865387/-Fishgrease:-DKos-Booming-School

Thank you trof for showing me the link.
trof's poignant message:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x8500554

[FailureToCommunicate]

114. Great link (apart from the anglo-saxon-implying-passion bits) Thanks Grits!

[Are_grits_groceries]

119. Sorry. I should have put a warning. nt

[FailureToCommunicate]

121. No worries. Just my knee jerk observation as a PK. WHAT he has to say is spot on!

[tranche]

115. We did not put Kevin Costner, Matalin and Carville, and DU in charge of Apollo 13

We used scientists and it took a while.

[madmax]

116. K & R

[Waiting For Everyman]

124. Exactly. Are Costner's 20+ vacuum separator machines being used?

I heard they won't be, after he offered them, because they have to be tested for 5 years first!!! What better test could there be, than this? What do we have to lose?

His machines altogether can suck up almost as much as BP claimed was spilling prior to the cap.

I hope they've been used/tried, but I don't think so - I've seen nothing about that happening yet.

[Dr.Phool]

129. "Failure is not an option".

Apollo 13 Ground Control.

[gulliver]

146. They are trying.

I think you aren't giving credit where it is due, possibly. I'm with you on the sentiment, but I think everyone else is too.