Here is the problem

[nadinbrzezinski]

RANT

and it is not going to change...

As log as people don't do the most basic of things they can do... SHOW UP AT THE POLLS... I don't expect any other change.

How many folks showed up to vote? Here locally less than 30% of registered voters. This is how bad it is. For round numbers 30% of us decide for the other 70%, and the 30% that show up on off year elections, primaries, et al... tend to be to the right.

This will not be popular... but if you are a US Citizen and over 18 participation should be MANDATORY... no, it won't happen... and things will not change. And those in charge know this is good (for them)

So not only do we have pretty insecure elections, but people don't really participate...

You do the math.

Me... well pretty much it's over. I will continue to vote, so I have a right to bitch, but don't expect any change. And sadly many spouting the next box is the ammo box don't vote either, on either side...

End RANT.

[Oregone]

1. So you expect change when people are voting for the lesser of two evils?

I don't think thatll change anything either. Try again.

[HughMoran]

5. We need to vote for imaginary candidates

Yeah, that'll be satisfying.

Hey, why don't you move back from Canada and run - you seem to have all the answers.

[Oregone]

7. Or just make up crazy shit

Get the private money out of the campaigns and you open the field to a lot more candidates (who just may not be the "lesser of two evils"). You know, the type of people who actually encourage others to vote for them. Addressing the media is another angle to open the field to other candidates.

In the meantime, forcing people to vote for the best flavor of shit soup is just going to result in everyone getting served shitty soup at the dinner table.

Move back from Canada....no fuckn way :)

[HughMoran]

14. Guess who needs to change the financing rules

Doh! The Fox watching the henhouse.

[Oregone]

18. Yeah, so....just give up?

Cause honestly, thats about as useful anymore as anything else it seems.

If you don't think organizing to change the election system is useful, and can promote change, then I assert you cannot promote it either by simply voting in this rigged system.

Do you have an alternative besides political apathy?

[HughMoran]

20. I don't have a solution short of mass non-participation in the economic system or revolution

What's your suggestion?

[Oregone]

24. Ive always said....break it & fix it, accept it, or leave it

I'm too lazy for the first (especially with no guarantee the replacement could justify the trouble) and too spiteful for the second.

[tmyers09]

9. The fuck are you talking about?

Imaginary candidates? There are plenty of candidates whose voices are squelched in an election system in which money talks. There are more than two candidates, and you're not helping by spreading the notion that they don't matter and that it is a wasted vote. A chance for politicians to make real differences, instead of just telling the masses what they want to hear, but then sit on their asses? Yeah, that'll be satisfying.

[Oregone]

12. Apparently, unless you receive the party blessing and big money, you don't exist

Id imagine its not worth reforming the system, to that poster, to allow those who aren't given the golden soapbox a chance to appeal to the people in a fair, equitable way.

[HughMoran]

Love to reform the system

...as I said above, there is no incentive for those already elected to change the system. What's the answer, besides complaining about it?

[nadinbrzezinski]

21. We can start by FULLY participating in it

I am willing to guess it would be a little different if oh I don't know 70% showed up... then the number of people you need to sell yourself to changes dramatically.

Don't expect that to happen until we mandate participation I fear.

And they are not interested in that... catch 22 indeed.

[Oregone]

27. Participating in a shitty system that fields two shitty candidates fixes the system how?

[William Z. Foster]

43. sure

That is the way to fight organized crime, I guess, too - help the crime syndicate. Tell everyone that they should do the same thing. Give the crime bosses money, be a runner and errand boy for them. Then "speak truth to power" and tell the Dons you want more progressive crime bosses. That'll work. But, hey, if you don't get out there and work with the crime syndicate, you have no right to complain and nothing will ever change.

[HughMoran]

17. Feel free to promote these candidates

They really are hard to support when it is difficult to find their mere existence and thus they poll in the single digits.

They don't matter if they can't win and they can't win until the system is changed by the people we are voting for. It's a Catch 22 - you tell me how to break the logjam.

[Oregone]

22. You tell me

It seems you think the notion of reforming a corrupt system is silly enough to poke fun at...yet you do not poke fun yet at the OPs notion to participate in a corrupt system (assuming that you will accept the premise that the election system in America is corrupt, rigged, or against significant change in the first place)

Do you have any of the answers yourself?

On edit: I saw...."I don't have a solution short of mass non-participation in the economic system or revolution"

[HughMoran]

29. No

I don't have the answers. Theoretical 'lets organize and reform' discussion is legitimate, but I believe that a majority of Democrats and Republicans don't care to change the system as it is. If the driving force for reform is no bigger than the single digit numbers that 3rd party candidates get, then no change is possible without a massive system wide disruption initiated by the few (how do you do that?) Of course I think we should participate in the current system - not participating doesn't change the system, it simply empowers your enemies.

[nadinbrzezinski]

33. +100 why I keep voting

but when you go to vote and it is you, your husband, two poll workers and another voter... it is kind of disheartening.

[tmyers09]

42. It's a vicious cycle really.

You can't get money donated if you can't get your name and positions out there, and you can't get your name and positions out there without money being donated. Every candidate needs some sort of equal fund to draw from, as well as public time to air their positions and get name recognition.

[HughMoran]

46. Agreed

We are stuck in the 'viscous cycle' and we can't get out of it without reforming the funding system. Problem is, of course, that the people in power who have the money are never going to voluntarily give that up.

[Individualist]

6. Hear, hear!

[grantcart]

2. Actually it is even more depressing than that

40 years ago May and June meant one thing.

Student demonstrations.

At the campus I was at we worked out a deal with the cafeteria and when the weather turned warm pizzas were served on the quad some singers with guitars provided the warm up and then we had a series of short speeches.

After the war effectively ended we started on MIRVs, the environment, the grapes.

And this was a very conservative protestant school!


8 weeks into one of the worst environmental disasters imaginable and where are the demonstratons?

Nothing.

It turns out that religion isn't the opiate of the masses but IPhones and texting is.

The current student generation is apathetic to a degree that is stunning.

End RANT

[nadinbrzezinski]

3. Yep, part of the problem of course

that is also why we got 30% of people show up. And I wish they were younger than 30... (And some do by the way)

And I love skype let's me talk with mom... but add skype to your list.

[tmyers09]

4. Nothing will change as long...

...as people continue to buy into the notion that voting outside of the two parties is "throwing your vote away".

[nadinbrzezinski]

8. If you only have 30% or so showing up

who exactly do the power elites have to fear?

Now in my mind we need a slew of electoral system changes but... with these low voting ratios they don't fear us.

[tmyers09]

10. We the people are supposedly the government, but only 30% of the people care.

People just don't give two shits about voting, or government. The public is satiated with iPhones and Dancing With The Stars.

What can we do about it?

[nadinbrzezinski]

11. Australia mandates voting

they got a 95% participation rate. They used NOT to in the age well before Iphones... back in the 1910s, and they had 30-35% participation. Not popular but perhaps we should make this ... mandatory.

[Oregone]

30. Yeah, a country with a multi-party system and preferential voting

Go figure...the field is a bit more open.

What is odd about Australia is the involvement of private money in elections, despite the more progressive nature of the voting system.

[Oregone]

15. Ever thought that maybe there is a reason only 30% or so show up?

Maybe 70% of people find the viable candidates on the ballot all suck.

[bobbolink]

32. What's the fun in that? Understanding is sooooo passe'

:applause:

[William Z. Foster]

13. not showing up is voting

Having the right to speak out is not contingent on voting or not.

The 30% are not deciding anything for the other 70%. Everything is decided for all of us by and for the 1%, the wealthiest few, and there is never any referendum for that on any ballot.

Voter turnout is a function of the general involvement in politics of all kinds at all levels. Since those controlling politics in both parties at all levels do everything they can to discourage participation and input, fight as hard as they can against including most working class people, there is little involvement and low turnouts.

The scolding of people for not voting is a good example of the aristocratic and condescending attitude that drives people away from politics - and with good reason. So many here argue so aggressively for seeing politics only in terms of partisan electoral politics, and see that as only a product of "personal choices" and "personal beliefs." That ensures that they, and the people they admire will maintain control and power. It is a rigged game.

Demanding that people vote, and then blaming them for the trouble in the country when they do not vote, is misleading and disingenuous. People would vote if they thought it made any difference. What you really want is for people to see politics only in terms of partisan electoral politics and personal choices and personal beliefs. That supports the ruling class. Why would working class people heed your call?

I listened to NPR today with much yap about politics. I don't think I heard one intelligent comment. Then we see all of the same talking points repeated ad nauseum here.

Maybe it is not that people are not interested in politics, but more the case that the people talking about politics - including most here - don't have anything interesting to say.

[bobbolink]

26. Scolding is a hell of a lot easier than listening.

:shrug:

[obxhead]

16. I feel election days should become national holidays

and NO business of any kind may open or operate. Emergency services only (hospital, fire, rescue, police)

It would certainly draw more attention to voting days at the very least. To the business owners who cry, well if shutting down for a few days every 2 years is that detrimental to the business it's probably time to just throw in the towel anyway.

[nadinbrzezinski]

19. Or move them to Sunday

Alas yesterday I wore my I Voted sticker, and of course I had a person go... there was an election today? I didn't know...

Like all the TV adds should be a hint or something...

GRRRR

[obxhead]

38. I think Tuesdays are fine, I wouldn't

want god worship to be an excuse.

[nadinbrzezinski]

41. And make participation mandatory

take a page from Australia? Or perhaps, not certify an election with less than 51% of registered voters...

I am dreaming I know...

[obxhead]

44. and remove the electoral college system

let every single vote count. Our communications have become advanced enough to no longer need that bullshit either.

[nadinbrzezinski]

45. Oh my list of reforms IS LONG

no private money (good luck)

Shorten campaigns to two months...

Get rid of the college or if you need to keep it, change the function to ONLY CERTIFY IT, and move it to the Senate... which is what they do.

Run off voting...

I could go on...

Proportional representation....

[bobbolink]

48. Because power and control ALWAYS works.

[bobbolink]

23. Blame The Victim. It always works so well.

Of course, you could choose to listen to people when they say WHY they don't vote.

But that isn't nearly as much fun as stomping on them verbally, is it?

[nadinbrzezinski]

25. This is not about you

by the way.

Fact is people don't vote

Fact is the powers that be like that

Fact is we need to find a way to get them to vote

Fact is nothing will change until that happens

But fact is, you always find a way to make things about you.

[bobbolink]

28. bwahahahaha! Great example of blaming without listening!!

Exhibit A.

[nadinbrzezinski]

31. Nah great example of what I described

there are multiple reasons why people don't vote... yes, some ARE excuses... in fact the lack of time THESE DAYS has mostly gone since most people can do a mail in ballot,

Fact is Muricans like to complaint

Fact is Muricans do NOT pay attention to civic responsibilities

Those are facts. They are historic facts.

And no, this is not about you. Of course you will find a way to make it about you, but it is not about you. And if you want things to change at your personal level... well dear, these systemic problems have to change too...

Oh never mind the wall is far softer.

[bobbolink]

34. Dearie, I realize this will spoil your critical narrative, but it CAN'T be about me.

I'VE ALWAYS VOTED.

[nadinbrzezinski]

35. Did I say otherwise?

But invariably you come to thread after thread after thread and try to hijack and make it about you.

Just calling as I see it.

[bobbolink]

39. Repeating the same lie over and over and OVER again doesn't make it TRUE.

You may notice.... YOU are the one who made it about *me*.

Congratulations on such great self-fulfilling prophecies.

[William Z. Foster]

40. not true

No progressive social change has ever happened from working within the partisan electoral political system, from voting. Voting is an effect of political change, not a cause.

Emancipation would have happened with or without the Republicans, but it would not have happened without the Abolitionists. The same applies to every other great movement for social justice.

So none of those are "facts" - you love to throw that word around so that people will believe that what you have to say is more valuable thane what others have to say. Even your last fact - a personal attack and a lie - is false. By calling your opinions "facts" you then have any easy out when anyone challenges your opinions - you can accuse them of "ignoring facts."

[supernova]

36. Early voting for runoff is now

Between Elaine Marshall and Cal Cunningham to challenge Richard Burr (R-Absent Asshole)

They are expecting turnout in the single digits, though.

:evilfrown:

[nadinbrzezinski]

37. There you go

and I think it is damn pitiful. We are to the point where I at times wonder if we should just do away with this anyway...

:banghead: to most people who just don't give two shits about it.

[Jennicut]

47. Voting should be mandatory. Then maybe we would win the primaries we want to win.

The % that vote in primaries has been up in recent years but it could hell of a lot better.

[nadinbrzezinski]

49. Won't fly in this country

but I am starting to think that the Australians were on to something when they did that.

[Jennicut]

50. Yeah, we hate being "told" what to do and then yell at others when

they suggest ways we can fix our problems. I also dislike this "my vote doesn't count" thing. If we truly participated in primaries, it would count. But not enough people are political junkies like us.

[nadinbrzezinski]

51. We are called authoritarians by our left wing libertarians

:-)