fuck it -- i'm coming out.

[xchrom]

i USE viagra and levitra on occasion because i have to.
and i'm grateful as hell it's there.

the period i had to live -- brief as it was before those were available were awful.

i use testosterone replacement therapy -- age and drugs and now three times worth of chemotherapy have made it so treatments like that are necessary for a fuller more enjoyable.

good for you if you don't need it -- i do.

i've hated the threads on viagra -- it's a kind of male bashing that is acceptable -- but i hate it.

it makes an unbelievable difference for a lot of people -- their lives -- my life is better.

most of you already know me for a cranky asshole -- so you'll know i don't really care what you think if you're 'against it'.

[MrScorpio]

1. Point that thing somewhere else

Please think of the children

[babylonsister]

7. LOL! And to the OP,

why would anyone think less of you? I bet if someone took an anonymous poll of people on this forum over a certain age who use or have used those drugs, the majority would admit they did/do.
Partners are mighty happy they're available, too.

[flyarm]

26. lmao!!! lolol..............that's a duzy!! eom

[roguevalley]

think of it this way. you are now clear of any charges of assault with a dead weapon

mazel tov!

[flyarm]

81. lmao!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

[Bluebear]

2. Hey, put that away, it may be loaded!

:)

Oh, and . . . whatever you need for happiness, you should have. Truly!

[Skittles]

3. it's not so much viagra that is detested as much as the double standard

your rights to woody-inducing drugs aren't questioned but birth control? different fucking story (pardon the pun)

[boston bean]

10. Well, that's true too.

And I think as women, we can see how he might get so ticked off about it. With men and some women trying to control every aspect of our sexual organs.

[hedgehog]

11. There is a difference between a young man using these drugs so he can go all night,

and an older man using these drugs so he can have sexual activity at all. Compare it to the difference between someone having surgery to get a set of 36DD breasts and someone getting reconstructive surgery after a mastectomy.

[boston bean]

15. I don't think that was the point of her reply.

The point is there are some people out there who don't want birth control to be legal.

Which in turn makes sex for women nothing but a worry for fear of pregnancy, or turning women into a baby factory.

Yet a pill is invented for men so they can continue to enjoy sex, or enhance their sex.

[Orrex]

17. But that's a false equivalency

You're right, of course, that people want to control (well, eliminate) women's reproductive freedom. That's a primitive idiocy that should be fought at every turn and in every guise.


But that legitimate and important fight has nothing to do with a medication to treat erectile dysfunction.

[boston bean]

22. I think there is a double standard. Presume

that men were the ones who carried the babies, do you think Viagra have been invented?

I hear what you are saying, but I don't think it is a completely false equivalency.

The pill gives women the freedom to enjoy sex. Viagra gives men the ability to enjoy sex again.

That is why you will hear women sometimes making comments about viagra. Do we want men to not take Viagra, no.

We are pointing out what is a double standard.

[Skittles]

27. CORRECT

[Touchdown]

32. I had a script for Viagra once.

Dr. prescribed me 12. It was to counteract another med I was taking that affected me functionally. Insurance only allowed me 6 in a month. Sex, once a week? That's not a double standard, but a sex negative judgement call by big insurance as an excuse (once more) to not pay for what they are supposed to.

At least when Birth Control Pills are paid for by insurance, you're not getting a truncated amount.

[xchrom]

35. ah -- some one who has been there at least for a moment. nt

[Touchdown]

69. Yeah, I agree with you, the jokes are really nasty.

As if only The Pig Man uses them in The Dominican Republic, thus it's joke worthy.

At the risk of making a joke. Hang in there!:hug:

[Madam Mossfern]

89. You can't take a "truncated" amount of birth control

It wouldn't be birth control then.
It isn't comparable at all.

[Touchdown]

90. "Not comparable at all"

Then please tell me, why are you and a dozen others hijacking a Viagra thread to complain about how you're treated by insurance companies with Birth Control Pills?

[Madam Mossfern]

94. I hijacked this thread?

My response was a direct response to a statement about birth control pills.

Usually this stuff happens in forums, threads tend to meander like flow of conscious. I don't think that anyone intended to steal it away from you. I'm happy for you that you found something that works. You can always get another prescription and bring it to another pharmacy and pay out of your own pocket if you think the insurance allowance is not adequate.

I have my own personal issues with viagra as it tends to take away spontaneity.

[Touchdown]

98. No it wasn't. I was talking about having a script for Viagra

The only mention I had of BCPs is how cheap the insurance companies are in only giving 6 Vs out a month, which is not even enough for prostate maintenance.

You may not have started this, but there was no organic flow of consciousness to BCPs being introduced here. It was more of a "Look at the penis pills thread! I hate penises! They get all the attention!"

I only took it for awhile to counteract another drug that affected my... nasty, autocratic, evil, warmongering, world destroying penis!

[Madam Mossfern]

99. I didn't know that viagra was used for prostate maintenance

I just thought it was for evil penises.

How does it work for prostate maintenance, just keeps things 'flowing'?
I work with someone who just had surgery for prostate cancer. Viagra doesn't work for him and he went to get fitted for a 'devise' which he thought was just too weird for him. He was given some sort of injectable stuff that will help him out. He seemed a little squeamish, but I reminded him that his wife was a nurse. Errrr....somehow I didn't think this was really an appropriate topic of discussion at the office, but I guess he needed to share.

[Touchdown]

103. Spoiler alert. TMI coming

Doctors say, that for proper prostate health and prevention of prostatitis and lower the risk of prostate cancer, that we should have at least 2-3 emissions per week. Not only sex, but also by the self... doesn't matter. Viagra/Cialis helps that. If you can't get it up, you can't do that.

[Madam Mossfern]

107. My DH will love that information

I can imagine it now...."C'mon sweetie time to go upstairs for my 'medicine'." ;-)

[hedgehog]

117. Following prostate surgery, the nerves tend to be a little numb.

By using Viagra as a jump start, sexual activity can be resumed much earlier. Otherwise, if the man waits 6 months for the nerves to recover, he may find everything else is out of order. It'd be similar to having surgery and then lying in bed for six months. If you don't get up and moving around ASAP, you'll find you have new problems.

Believe it or not, it's called penile re-hab.

[Orrex]

47. Framing it as a double standard serves only to weaken the argument.

Presume that men were the ones who carried the babies, do you think Viagra have been invented?

Of course that's impossible to answer, because it's too deeply hypothetical. Countless other physical, cultural, and societal factors would also have to presumed to change before we could even address the likelihood of Viagra in that fictional universe. It's a compelling soundbyte, but it's not a persuasive argument.

The pill gives women the freedom to enjoy sex. Viagra gives men the ability to enjoy sex again.

That's likewise a false equivalency, because the absence of The Pill doesn't actually prevent sexual functioning. If a medication existed to restore a woman's physiological ability to perform sexually and this medication were not covered, then that would be a double standard.

That is why you will hear women sometimes making comments about Viagra. Do we want men to not take Viagra, no. We are pointing out what is a double standard.

I get what you're saying, but that argument creates a weak spot in what is the otherwise wholly legitimate assertion that insurance companies should cover The Pill. I accept that you don't see it as a false equivalency, but ultimately that's what it comes down to.
It's a mistake to set it up as a fight between a restoration of basic physiological sexual function and the ability to control one's ovulation.


I'll say again that I absolutely agree that The Pill should be covered by insurance companies, and it's utterly stupid that they don't cover it.

[laughingliberal]

97. The big issue for me is insurance companies routinely cover Viagra but not birth control

IOW, men have a right to virility but women have no control over the results of that virility.

[Orrex]

14. Well, the thing is, it's not a double standard

If a woman's birth control medication were not covered while a man's birth control medication was covered, then that would be a double standard.

If a medication improving a man's sexual functionality were covered, while a medication improving a woman's sexuality was not covered, then that would be a double standard.


Instead, the situation is about one kind of medication being covered by (many) insurance plans, while another kind of medication is not covered. In addition, the failure to cover contraceptive medication does not preclude healthy, active sexual relations.


There's really no equivalency at all, as far as I can tell, except insofar as both medications deal with people's naughty bits. Other than that, it's apples and oranges.


Having said all of that, I have to state clearly that birth control should obviously be covered by insurance plans, and it's only the stupid, regressive, and faux-moralistic bullshit that keeps it from being covered.

[flyarm]

29. opps i was laughing so hard i posted the wrong place!! eom

[Skittles]

31. HELLO

WOODY can lead to PREGNANCY - that's different than, er, APPLES AND ORANGES

[Orrex]

42. Well no shit. But that's irrelevant.

WOODY can lead to PREGNANCY

You've just made the same argument that insurance carriers make when they justify covering Viagra but not covering The Pill; the use of Viagra can restore sexual function which can, incidentally, result in pregnancy. Does The Pill restore one's diminished or reduced sexual function? If not, then the comparison is faulty a la apples and oranges, and that's why insurance typically doesn't cover The Pill.

Let me put it another way: What medical condition is The Pill prescribed to treat? Irregular periods? Menstrual pain? Endometriosis? Cysts? Fair enough. It is in fact very common for insurance companies to cover The Pill in these cases, because it's being used to treat a medical condition. Likewise, erectile dysfunction is a medical condition; therefore, insurance companies commonly cover the medication used to treat it. For that matter, fertility treatments are fairly routinely covered by insurance, as well, because such treatments are undertaken to mitigate a medical condition.

As far as I'm aware, ovulation is not a medical condition. Therefore, you're comparing the decision to cover the treatment of a medical condition with the decision not to cover treatment of a non-medical condition. Apples and oranges.


However, I absolutely think that The Pill should be covered, and why the hell not? As has been mentioned elsewhere in the thread, the failure to cover it--for whatever stated reason--amounts to an effort to control women's sexuality. But rallying behind a dubious comparison will only weaken the overall argument in favor of covering The Pill.

Hell, even the dynastic and puritanical corporation I used to work for recently started covering The Pill for use as a contraceptive, and if that fucked up company can get it right, I don't know why other similarly fucked up companies can't do it.

[Skittles]

49. I'm sure it's irrelevant to you

but us gals think differently - fear of pregnancy inhibits sexual pleasure - GO FIGURE

[Orrex]

51. Presumably, you wouldn't mind if I dismissed your view because you're just a "gal."

Please answer the question that is, ultimately, at the heart of the issue: What medical condition(s) is The Pill prescribed to treat?

[seabeyond]

54. i am bad at google. first site on list. under 5 sec. to find. probably more.

http://www.youngwomenshealth.org/med-uses-ocp.html


What are the medical benefits of the oral contraceptive pill?

Menstrual Cramps

For girls who experience severe menstrual cramps and over-the-counter medications do not help, oral contraceptive pills may be the solution. Oral contraceptive pills can help to decrease menstrual cramps. Because oral contraceptive pills prevent ovulation, they also get rid of pain that you experience with ovulation in the middle of your menstrual cycle.



Irregular or Absent Menstrual Periods


For girls whose menstrual periods are irregular (too often, too late, or not at all), oral contraceptive pills can help to regulate the menstrual cycle to every 28 days and provide the body normal amounts of estrogen to help protect the bones. Oral contraceptive pills also can reduce the amount and length of menstrual bleeding.



Acne

Oral contraceptive pills also improve acne. For moderate to severe acne, which over-the-counter and prescription medications can't cure, oral contraceptive pills may be prescribed. The hormones in the oral contraceptive pill can help stop acne from forming. Most types of oral contraceptives can be used to treat acne. Be patient though, since it takes several months for the oral contraceptive pills to work.



Other Medical Benefits
Because there is less menstrual bleeding with the use of oral contraceptive pills, you are less likely to get anemia (low number of red bloods, which carry oxygen from the lungs to the tissues). Oral contraceptive pills decrease your chance of getting endometrial (lining of the uterus) cancer and ovarian cancer, and ovarian cysts. So the pill has lots of health benefits!

[Orrex]

55. Excellent examples!

And you're nicely elaborated on the exact point that I was making in reply #42:

Let me put it another way: What medical condition is The Pill prescribed to treat? Irregular periods? Menstrual pain? Endometriosis? Cysts? Fair enough. It is in fact very common for insurance companies to cover The Pill in these cases, because it's being used to treat a medical condition. Likewise, erectile dysfunction is a medical condition; therefore, insurance companies commonly cover the medication used to treat it. For that matter, fertility treatments are fairly routinely covered by insurance, as well, because such treatments are undertaken to mitigate a medical condition.

We might (and I do) criticize insurance companies for failing to cover The Pill for use as a contraceptive, but if they do cover it for the treatment of other medical conditions in the same way that Viagra is covered for treating erectile dysfunction, then there's no double standard.

[seabeyond]

56. you asked question, i gave answer. personally

i dont know anything about insurance coverage on the pill. nada. zilch, so you could be right or not.... i dont know.

not a part of that discussion

[Orrex]

58. I appreciate your answer--as I said, you elaborated nicely on my exact point.

I might as well state once more my absolute belief that The Pill should be covered for use as a contraceptive, and I think it's stupid that it isn't covered.

[seabeyond]

59. if it is covered for those reasons, then all should be getting coverage of the pill because

doctors always use that as a reason along with birth control.

[Orrex]

63. I agree 100%

If insurance companies are failing to cover The Pill when prescribed to treat those conditions, then those insurance companies are unequivocally guilty of a double standard whether or not they also cover Viagra.

[Sal Minella]

60. The BC pill treats the medical condition of being pregnant 9 months out of 10.

Insurance companies seem to feel "normal" for a male is having ability to woody-up 24/7, and "normal" for a female is being pregnant or kept at grave risk of pregnancy 24/7.

Cure for floppy penis is a pill.
Cure for constant pregnancy is a pill.

Happy sex life for floppy-penised male comes from taking a pill.
Happy sex life for breeding-age female comes from taking pills.

I don't see any difference worth considering.

[riderinthestorm]

61. + 10000. Wish I could recommend your post more. nt

[Orrex]

62. It's interesting that you feel so free to trivialize a medical condition that affects men.

Would you be as jocular if a man referred dismissively to a woman's clinically "numb vagina" or a woman's inability to "juice-up 24/7?"

Cure for floppy penis is a pill.
Cure for constant pregnancy is a pill.

Happy sex life for floppy-penised male comes from taking a pill.
Happy sex life for breeding-age female comes from taking pills.

I don't see any difference worth considering.

See, the interesting thing here is that your argument is perfectly solid until it falls back into the false equivalency and, for that matter, a false dichotomy. Insurance companies should absolutely cover The Pill. The fact that insurance companies currently do cover Viagra doesn't change that one way or the other.

[Sal Minella]

64. I am talking about the RISK OF BEING PREGNANT nine months of every ten!

I had three babies in four years!

My post could be accused of being many things, perhaps, but I solemnly assure you, "jocular" is not one of them!!!

And if you think pregnancy is not a medical condition, I have some stories you need to hear.

If every Viagra pill came wrapped in a certificate for a free abortion, that would be fine with me.

[Orrex]

70. So stipulated

My post could be accused of being many things, perhaps, but I solemnly assure you, "jocular" is not one of them!!!

Okay, but perhaps you might henceforth tone down the rhetoric as it pertains to "floppy penises" and a man's ability to "woody-up" because these are, indeed, mocking trivializations of a medical condition.

And if you think pregnancy is not a medical condition, I have some stories you need to hear.

I don't believe I've asserted anywhere that pregnancy is not a medical condition. I have instead asserted that normal ovulation in itself is not a medical condition, insofar as it does not require medical treatment in the way that an illness or malady does.

Additionally, I'm not aware of any credible insurance policies that fail to cover treatment during pregnancy, routine or otherwise.


Why is it important to have The Pill covered as a treatment for a medical condition, rather than as a contraceptive? For that matter, I know quite a few women who are on The Pill to mitigate "irregular periods" or other dubious diagnoses; that is, the doctor nominally prescribes it to treat a malady when in fact the real reason is as a contraceptive. Sure, it sucks that this is a necessary step, but it's incredibly common. For example, lab tests for infant lead poisoning are often prescribed as bloodwork of another type, because the latter is covered more readily than lead testing. Problem solved.

I would suggest that it's a strategic error to try to equate Viagra and The Pill (as a contraceptive) because the two are not, in the end, equivalent in any but the most oblique, figurative way. It would be more productive and direct to argue (correctly) that The Pill should be covered as a contraceptive in its own right regardless of whether or not Viagra (or any of a thousand other drugs) are covered.


Incidentally, if The Pill were covered as a contraceptive, would you argue that condoms and other contraceptive measures should likewise be covered?

[riderinthestorm]

92. Pregnancy is absolutely NOT covered under many insurance policies

In fact, my 22 year old daughter's insurance policy from BCBS (certainly presumed to be one of the "credible" companies) has a specific exclusion for pregnancy, and no BC coverage.

Women's issues have been routinely trivialized by the medical and insurance industry. You do it yourself by saying "normal ovulation is not a medical condition". Say what? What's "normal" to you? What level of cramping is "normal" before a woman seeks medical care? What level of bleeding would you say is "normal"? Do you tell PMS jokes? What level of crankiness qualifies as legitimate PMS?

I believe men and women should receive the appropriate medication as prescribed by their doctor. And the insurance companies should cover it. Period (heh).

And yes, both men and women's contraceptives should be covered imho. Condoms for example, protect against sexually transmitted diseases and I would posit that's enough of a reason for insurance companies to be allocating a few bucks every month for anyone to purchase a boatload of condoms. It's a health precaution just like getting your blood pressure checked. Easy, cheap, effective and should be made available to everyone.

[seabeyond]

93. get this. first baby no preg insurance, paid cash. 2nd preg insured and paid MORE

cash

how does that work, i wonder.

between the co pays, deductibles i paid more cash, than when i paid cash and got a discount.

[Orrex]

96. To answer

Pregnancy is absolutely NOT covered under many insurance policies. In fact, my 22 year old daughter's insurance policy from BCBS (certainly presumed to be one of the "credible" companies) has a specific exclusion for pregnancy, and no BC coverage.

Well, that's fucked up and inexcusable, as is the habit of charging women more than men for equivalent insurance coverage. There's no way to defend that practice because it's indefensible. One question, though; does her carrier provide a pregnancy-inclusive policy that your daughter opted not to purchase? It's common for employers to offer a menu of different plans from which an employee is free to select, though this can get back into the disparity between men's and women's premiums.

Women's issues have been routinely trivialized by the medical and insurance industry. You do it yourself by saying "normal ovulation is not a medical condition". Say what? What's "normal" to you? What level of cramping is "normal" before a woman seeks medical care? What level of bleeding would you say is "normal"? Do you tell PMS jokes? What level of crankiness qualifies as legitimate PMS?

I'm not trivializing it at all, and certainly not in the way that jokes about "floppy penises" trivialize a medical condition.

Let me answer your last two questions first:

1. I do not make "PMS jokes," so you can set aside any conclusions that you may have been tempted to base upon that idea.
2. Obviously that can't be answered except by the individual.

As far as what "normal ovulation" means, I think that there are two basic ways to answer that:

First, if a doctor, after examining and interviewing the woman, determines that her ovulation or bleeding or cramping are within a range accepted as "normal," then it's normal. That sucks, I grant you, but it seems to me that a good doctor will generally be willing to work with a patient in this regard, prescribing medication to mitigate the discomfort even if the discomfort doesn't indicate an underlying illness or malady. If your doctor isn't willing to work with you in this way, then I'd say that you need to seek a new doctor.

Second, if the pain and other symptoms can be mitigated with routine, non-prescription treatment--and if they're not indicative of a more serious condition--then why shouldn't those non-prescription treatments be used first? However, if they do rise to a level requiring prescription medication, then of course they should be covered. I've made that point several times in this thread already.

I believe men and women should receive the appropriate medication as prescribed by their doctor. And the insurance companies should cover it. Period (heh).

I've made essentially that same statement about a dozen times as well.

And yes, both men and women's contraceptives should be covered imho. Condoms for example, protect against sexually transmitted diseases and I would posit that's enough of a reason for insurance companies to be allocating a few bucks every month for anyone to purchase a boatload of condoms. It's a health precaution just like getting your blood pressure checked. Easy, cheap, effective and should be made available to everyone.

We have no disagreement on this point, either.

[riderinthestorm]

100. Orrex, you and I are definitely on the same page.

I'm not being snarky, you've answered honestly and I was too. I wasn't trying to imply anything about your seriousness in regards to women's health issues (the PMS thing), I was simply pointing out that women's health issues are certainly trivialized, minimized and demeaned as well. Imho, more so than men's. If a poster on DU has characterized impotence as floppy penis' it's mild in the scheme of things, especially on DU where the rhetoric is often inflammatory.

To your specific points:
1. My daughter's health insurance policy had two options, one with the pregnancy rider (but still no BC), and one without the pregnancy rider (no BC). The pregnancy rider is much more expensive. What do you think a 22 year old is going to choose? The point being that to get health insurance coverage for pregnancy you have to buy MORE insurance but you still don't get BC. What a racket eh? Yes, it is profoundly fucked up.

2. "Normal" in regards to menstruation is completely subjective. In the same way that the "stiffness" or size of a man's erection is. Our discussion of whether or not you are (unconsciously) minimizing the issue of "normal ovulation" is getting pretty OT though.

If you recall the discussion evolved from Sal Minella's original point that pregnancy is a big deal and it's prevention is solved by taking a little pill. You've changed her original point about pregnancy to "normal ovulation" and called it a false equivalency. Ovulation and pregnancy are inextricably entwined. Pregnancy and ovulation are both medical conditions and certainly fair game to be compared to the prescribing of Viagra.

[Sal Minella]

105. Huzzah. Well spoke. Your patience is infinitely greater than mine.

I wish to point out that pregnancy is (or can swiftly become) a life-endangering medical condition. Not so with the panoply of symptoms used to elicit Viagra prescriptions.

The response "Ovulation is normal" ranks right up there with "Tell Jake to sleep on the roof" as far as I'm concerned.

[Orrex]

124. Okay

If you recall the discussion evolved from Sal Minella's original point that pregnancy is a big deal and it's prevention is solved by taking a little pill. You've changed her original point about pregnancy to "normal ovulation" and called it a false equivalency. Ovulation and pregnancy are inextricably entwined. Pregnancy and ovulation are both medical conditions and certainly fair game to be compared to the prescribing of Viagra.

In fairness, I first mentioned the "apples and oranges" comparison in reply #14. Sal Minella didn't enter the thread until reply #60, so if it's a matter of having changed the subject, then I'm not the one who changed it.

However, I'm happy to accept the actual equivalency of Viagra as a treatment for a medical condition and The Pill as treatment for a medical condition, as long as that's how it's framed. Instead, it is common here on DU to dismiss Viagra as "woody pills" or the like, while elevating The Pill to the distilled essence of women's rights. As long as that double standard persists, it's entirely reasonable to object to it as a false equivalency.

women's health issues are certainly trivialized, minimized and demeaned as well. Imho, more so than men's. If a poster on DU has characterized impotence as floppy penis' it's mild in the scheme of things, especially on DU where the rhetoric is often inflammatory.

Well, that simply means that both parties in such an exchange are assholes.

[Touchdown]

73. And of course it's all about women again! Gay men don't have sex, and don't need to get hard.

We are just there to listen to straight women complain about the men in their lives and shop for shoes. The desexualization of gay people continues.

And your first protest will be... "This is not an argument about that... I'm not in any way, yada, yada, yada... so don't you dare accuse me... blah, blah... marched in this parade this, and invited a gay token to my cotillion that... ." Save that bit of fake outrage for your shrink.

[Mad_Dem_X]

85. +1.

[blueamy66]

118. stated perfectly

nt

[Whisp]

75. I want to know why millions of men suppossedly have this problem to erect

is the chems in the food we eat, the air, the wahtever else

or is it just because it's cool to have a hard one for hours.

yes yes, as the OP said it serves a valuable purpose for many men and that is a great thing

but .... millions?
whats up with that?

[Touchdown]

125. Could be a combination of factors.

European, Asian and South American men do not buy ED meds in such numbers as Americans do. It could be...

Stress in some lives may be less
Diabetes is less prevalent
HFCS is less prevalent
Many other factors I'm not thinking of.

And one easy one that I can. That none of the other men from those 3 continents had these near them as babies.

[Whisp]

130. hmm, never thought of that

Magellan and his Clippers circumsizing the world.

good list you made tho, thanks.
I think its partly to do with catering to the american ego as well, if its as easy to pop a pill and measure yourself as a 'man' that way, well then... we got something for you!


one pill makes you bigger
and one pill makes you small
and the one that mother gives you
doens't do anything at all
Go Cialis
feed your head.

lol

[Lil Missy]

4. I'll alert the media. n/t

[boston bean]

5. that was quite a mouthful! could you elaborate though, a fuller more enjoyable.........

:hide:

On a serious note, I hear ya.

[AnArmyVeteran]

53. LOL

[blue neen]

6. It's great that there is medication available to help your situation.

I can't truly be happy for you, though until there is something available for women.

[UndertheOcean]

8. don't listen to the silly small minded people , just ignore the twits.

[hedgehog]

9. Let me just say, that for those who've gone through prostate

surgery, it helps put things right again. All kidding aside, it's a case of "use it or lose it". The faster (ahem) things are put back into use, the better the chances for a full recovery. Don't forget, prostate surgery is generally reserved for men who are still relatively young. With older men, the treatment of choice is watchful waiting because something else will kill you well before the cancer would.

[malaise]

12. My thread on the ads had nothing to do with male bashing

I was bashing the non-stop ads on TV and cable. Women can't even breast feed babies in public but ads telling men how to have sex for hours can be shown all hours of the day and night.

I'm glad your life is better and I'm sure it's helping thousands of men, but there are a lot of women who don't think they should have to explain Viagra and Cialis to kids. All I'm suggesting is that they advertise their product after hours.

[seabeyond]

18. and on history channel and discovery. i love my 8 and 10 yr old boys learning their penis is not

good enough. needs to be bigger. go longer. needs a blue pill

and

while nature slows us down as we age, the male has the drug to keep it going and the woman? left behind. about par.

[malaise]

19. This one is not about me in the least

I'm happy nature slows us down. I agree with you re your boys.

[seabeyond]

21. lol

i hear ya. i wasnt talking to you but using your post as a springboard to what i wanted to say.

[malaise]

23. LOL

but I don't want any pill - I hate anything more than aspirin :D

[havocmom]

41. And we don't seem to get a lot of birth control spam emails either

Your thread was not bashing men, but the ads, I got that. And until recently, many insurance companies would not pay for birth control pills but would pay for viagra, which was REALLY blatant double standard. Especially when one recognizes that BC pills are not just for preventing pregnancy, but do serve medical purposes for many women who have hormonal problems, sever pain, excessive bleeding. When pharmacists got the right to NOT hand over legal prescriptions because it violated their personal feelings, they were given the right to interfere with medical treatment that SHOULD be only a matter for the individual woman and her doctor. THAT is a big double standard in my book.

I am all for ANYBODY getting the meds they need to live a comfortable, healthy life. I would love to see pot legally growing in backyards of the people who could benefit from it. If Viagra improves a gentleman's quality of life, that is fantastic. I just question the rigorous marketing of the product because that is naught but an attempt to create demand that goes beyondreal medical need. And frankly, I wonder about the confidence level of men who are constantly under a barrage of ads suggesting they might not be keeping up with the Joneses.

But then, I feel NO prescription drugs should be heavily marketed to the lay-population. Such ads are creating grand profits for some companies, but probably do not serve the health of the general public. They just make more of us pests to doctors, begging for this and that magic pill to deal with things which are not really health issues, or even quality of life issues, but vanity issues.

And I really would like to open my email without having to spend time deleting so much RX spam.

[Donnachaidh]

13. My problem is with the recreational use of viagra by kids

Making love shouldn't be an olympic sport fueled by drugs and over the top images put out by the porn industry. Ron Jeremy is the exception, but by some of the *standards* out there if you aren't *banging like a porn star* something is WRONG with you.

Women have to live with strange market-based illusory standards to live up to. Guys are falling for the marketing too.

[Touchdown]

71. Turn of the Century Victorian prudishness called.

They want their sanctimony back.

[Donnachaidh]

80. oh suck it

Prudishness because I think it's STUPID for men to buy into unrealistic market-driven standards?

Knuckle-walking, feces tossing mentality called. Keeper cleaned your tire swing yet?

[Soylent Brice]

86. telling a DUer to "suck it" is, well... the irony of doing so on a viagra thread...

i don't know what's worse, the irony, or that you told someone to "suck it".
i would implore you to edit.

[Touchdown]

87. I don't see any critique of market driven standards by you.

I see a sex negative post that chides people for having too much, and using a drug to help them do it.

It's no different than coke, poppers, quaaludes, pot, alcohol, or any other stuff people use when their having sex.

[iamthebandfanman]

109. amen, fuck ur body !

screw everything in sight i say!

[Touchdown]

72. Double Post from DU hiccups

Still, I'm leaving Granny up... because she's Granny!

[blogslut]

16. I commend you

Viagra jokes are lazy humor.

[Mojorabbit]

20. My hubby is a family physician

and it is the number one request from men over fifty as it is a natural aspect of aging.
http://www.aolhealth.com/conditions/life-after-50-a-harvard-study-of-male-sexuality
It is wonderful that we live in an age where there is something like this that can enhance
quality of life.
The thing that irks me the most though is that you will never see a commercial that shows a woman
complaining about her lack of desire which advertises a pill for it like you do these commercials, with her
flirtatiously leading her man into the bedroom.
There would be an absolute uproar. It is the double standard that gets me.

[Orrex]

24. Now *that's* a double standard, and you're exactly correct!

It's tempting to fall into an argument about "Viagra vs. The Pill," when in fact the two are very different--but certainly legitimate--issues.

But society maintains a stupid, puritanical squeamishness about women who enjoy sex, and you're absolutely right that a medical advancement in this regard would result in uproar--or at the very least a campaign of trivializing derision instructing women to feel ashamed about orgasm.


That double standard should be left in the 19th century (where it didn't belong either, but at least we'd be rid of it).

[LadyHawkAZ]

25. I'm glad it was available to help you.

I have no objection to the drug being prescribed or used in situations like yours where it's really needed for a bona fide physical problem.

I don't object to it being covered by insurance either. I object to the insurers who have decided that pills to help male sexual function are a legitimate claim, while pills for women to prevent that sexual function from resulting in a pregnancy are not.

I object to the fact that Viagra, which caused several hundred deaths in its first two years on the U.S. market, slid merrily under the radar while RU-486, which caused 8 deaths in its first 6 years on the market, was condemned and demonized.

I object to it being advertised nonstop in prime time. To be fair, I object in the same way to the birth control ads and all other drug advertising in prime time. If it has to be prescribed, it shouldn't be advertised. Doctors are supposed to make that decision, not consumers.

In short, I object to erectile dysfunction drugs being touted as a harmless chemical sex toy. That's all.

[JanMichael]

33. Well stated, I agree. nt.

[emmadoggy]

78. Very well said.

:thumbsup:

[blueamy66]

120. absolutely

great post

[JerseygirlCT]

28. The only thing I hate about Viagra is their awful ad campaign

The whole circle-jerk thing is just so vile.

But I'm glad there's something to make your life better.

[flyarm]

30. Do you have the double bath tubs by the beach???????? Just wondering...

does your significant other have pills too??...is she in or out of menopause??.still just wondering..is it a two way street or just a one way thing... males only apply?

[AnnieBW]

34. Well, no wonder you're a cranky asshole!

I don't mind that people can't get it up and want a treatment for it. I just think that ED meds are being over-used, and health insurance is funding them when they refuse to fund birth control pills.

[UTUSN]

36. Out of *where*?!1 n/t

[Warpy]

37. I don't mind they're available quite as much

as I mind that insurance plans regularly pay for them yet pitch a fit over birth control pills, much more essential to women's health than the male drugs are for men.

Insurance companies treat women abominably and that is the real problem here, not that men in loving relationships can take drugs that allow them to experience the full range of that relationship.

[xchrom]

39. i'm not in a 'loving relationship' nor do i want to be.

haven't been for years. don't like them.

[USArmyParatrooper]

38. People on DU actually hate on Viagra?

Why?

[Chulanowa]

50. Couple of reasons

One, there's the real (and possibly accurate) feeling that research money is going to penis pills, when it could be going towards actual disease treatments and cures.

Two, as mentioned before, there's the fact that insurance plans often cover ED pills, but rarely birth control and never any form of "morning after" pills.

I don't think anyone hates the users of these medicines, and I doubt there's any real annoyance for the medicines themselves; It's just all the secondary issues around them.

Plus? Apparently if i take viagra, i'm going to have my own yacht and can take my supermodel wife sailing. The commercials, and there are millions of commercials, are all annoying.

[AnArmyVeteran]

57. Not much was spent on research. One guy invented this years ago

He discovered the 'enhancing' qualities of his formulation as a side effect. It wasn't researched initially. Like most drugs they are throughout the plant world. Birth control meds came from roots women chewed on. What's sad are the thousands of plant species going extinct yearly that could bring us new, wonderful discoveries. But greed and rape of our environment are destroying our future.

The RX industry spends more on advertising all drugs than on research.

Just thought I'd add to you true post.

[Mojorabbit]

66. It was found by accident

as it was originally being developed as a drug to lower Blood pressure if I am remembering correctly. It was an interesting side effect.

[xchrom]

40. i know viagra and levitra have garnered most of the attention here --

but i want to also note that i came out as using testosterone replacement therapy -- which if avoided is worthy of special accommodation.

my life is better for using it.

[closeupready]

43. Seems silly to have to say it, but yes, sex is huge in quality of life.

The inability to engage in sexual relations with one's significant other can be devastating. But it's the outlying cases that people hear about, not the people, like yourself, who need it due to chemo side effects.

[timo]

44. rock on !!!

I love the generic stuff we get down here in mex!!!!!
I love to take one on "date" night :)

[OhioChick]

45. Hell, if there's something available out there to help you...

I'm all for it. Makes you a happier person, right? Who gives a rat's ass what others think.

On a side note....I never thought you were a cranky asshole.

[xchrom]

48. GRRRRRRRL! you wouldn't! LOL!!! damn that was funny. nt

[AndyA]

46. I have no problem whatsoever with the PEOPLE who use Viagra, etc.

My problem is with the friggin' COMMERCIALS!

I'm sick of having to watch all the loving couples all tingly about gettin' it on.

I'm tired of the bathtubs on the beach...in the vineyard...what the hell is that all about, anyway?

I'm tired of hearing about feminine itch problems.

Sally Field can't find the time to take her Boniva pill more than once a month, but she has time to do multiple commercials for it.

Rashes.

Flaking, scaly skin.

Bumps.

Eruptions.

Pustules oozing fluid.

Enough already!

After knowing how the Pharma industry has taken advantage of us, I'm sick sick sick of their damn commercials!

[flyarm]

67. You forgot "RESTLESS LEG SYNDROME"..where would we be without it?? eom

[Jamastiene]

76. The one I am sick of is the one that shows the toenail fungus

having a party. :puke:

[flyarm]

82. with those little creatures..yes..it is disgusting..lmao............

[rug]

52. If this post is still up in four hours call a doctor.

[Born_A_Truman]

68. ....

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[CLANG]

65. My brother needs those too - the wonders of modern medicine

Remember, I'm OK, you're OK!

[Arugula Latte]

74. Men should refuse all Viagra/Cialis until women's birth control is covered by insurance.

Yeah, that's going to happen. :eyes:

I don't care if men take something to get it up. What does bother me is that it's treated as so much more f@#$ing important than women's reproductive health. :grr:

[Touchdown]

91. Men should refuse to put the toilet seat down until women...

realize this isn't a contest, and we can only apologize for having a penis so many times.

[Jamastiene]

77. Don't point that thing at me!

:P

:hide:

[apocalypsehow]

79. My awesome virility has always precluded me needing such things - but you go, brother.

:thumbsup: :beer: :toast:

[fascisthunter]

83. no need to even come out... it's all good

if you are happier, that's cool with me.

[hedgehog]

84. I've read though this thread this morning and have several comments/questions:

1. Again, if a man uses Viagra to overcome the effects of illness or surgery, I would compare that to someone using prescribed steroids. A man using these drugs "to enhance performance" is like a baseball player doping up. He may be breaking records, but it just isn't authentic.

2. Some suggest that men should accept this "as a normal part of aging". OK, then no more artificial joints, no more arthritis drugs, and certainly no more hair dyes or Spanx!

3. And why shouldn't older men be allowed to enjoy sex? Are we dealing with more than a little ageism here?

4. I think the comparison of Viagra to birth control pills is a fallacy. As someone pointed out, they both concern naughty bits, but so what? Why not compare insulin coverage to birth control pills?

5. For that matter, why cover birth control pills and not condoms? Are diaphragms covered? I know the spermicide isn't!

6. Why spend money on "boner drugs" rather than more important problems. OK, why spend money on breast enhancements? Why spend money on acne? What about that prescription medication to make eye lashes grow in fuller and longer? Why spend money on make-up? Nice clothes? Where do you draw the line on quality of life issues?

7.If you've been paying attention , you'd realize that pharmaceutical companies are working night and day to develop a female version of Viagra. In fact - they have tried Viagra with women several times with poor results. Not only that, but one unspoken supposed benefit of hormone replacement therapy was to enhance womens' libido. That's one reason it got rushed to market so quickly without proper testing. Too bad it turned out to cause breast cancer!

8. If you're going to say that sex is so unimportant that older men don't need it, then why not tell all those women out there to keep their knees together? Seriously, if a man won't allow the woman to say no, she has problems that go way beyond what a birth control pill can handle!

[Sal Minella]

101. Are you actually saying that a woman should engage in intercourse

ONLY when she is desirous of becoming pregnant?

I've read #8 three times, and can't arrive at any other interpretation.

Sperm quality decreases as men age. Reduced libido may be nature's way of limiting offspring that are less likely to thrive. Who knows?

[Missy Vixen]

108. Reduced libido has little to do with it

>Reduced libido may be nature's way of limiting offspring that are less likely to thrive.<

There are a huge number of men who use ED drugs because they are having problems with erections. Those issues can start at 40.

Life expectancy of an American male is 72.

Would you like to tell the 40-year-old down the street with Type II diabetes that he can just forget about having sex for the next thirty of so years?

[Sal Minella]

111. Naturally subsiding libido as a normal part of the aging process

should not be considered a "medical problem," IMO; ED in a young diabetic is, of course, and I am always grateful when people do not distort what I've said. What I said was
=============================
Sperm quality decreases as men age. Reduced libido may be nature's way of limiting offspring that are less likely to thrive. Who knows?
=============================

It's a mystery to me why a guy who recognizes that he can no longer run hurdles or do chin-ups thinks he should still be able to rut all night like a 17-yo.

Edit for clarity.

[hedgehog]

116. There's a difference between libido and ED -

the difference between wanting to do it and being able to do it.

[hedgehog]

115. Well, if she doesn't want to become pregnant, she can just give up sex, right?

That's what some here would have older men do.

[eShirl]

88. good for you

:hug:

[Lars39]

95. D'oh!

For some inexplicable reason I always thought you were a woman. :silly: :blush: :yoiks: I want *everyone* to have the medications, procedures, whatnot to live a full and happy life. :hi:

[Toasterlad]

102. I Love You With Or Without a Stiffy, X.

[supernova]

104. But you're an adorable cranky asshole

:hug:

:D

Hey, I think anything that improves the quality of our lives is very much better.

I hate this idea that if you have health problems, you're just supposed to suffer quietly about other aspects of your life too.

[LaurenG]

106. I hope that you continue to have a fuller more enjoyable!

There is nothing to be "coming out" about this. It's unreasonable to try to take the joy out of lives because so many things in our world are so massively screwed up.

You taking viagra has squat to do with anything other than you and how you've medically responded to it. Keep your head up dude ;) and cheers. :toast:

[flvegan]

110. Can you use Viagra and take testosterone and still be "Princess Spice" though?

[TZ]

112. !

Flvegan for the win! :spray:

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

129. Is that a pepper grinder in your pocket, Princess Spice?

Or are you just happy ...


:hi:

[hippywife]

113. I'm happy as hell for ya, babe!

:hi:

[nichomachus]

114. A lot of women on this thread seem to be fantasizing

about men having sex "for hours and hours" and "screwing all night." What's up with that?

[hedgehog]

119. We sneak out and read "gentlemen's" magazines and find out

that that's what a lot of men fantasize about!

[Missy Vixen]

122. The only way that's happening is if the guy's under 21

Or so I've been told.

The rest of us have to deal with a more :ahem: normal amorous life.

[mistertrickster]

121. That took guts, and thanks for your perspective. Nobody's medical condition should be ridiculed. nt

[Missy Vixen]

123. Good for you, and I'm glad the drugs work for you

I'd love to see how some of those here who believe that Viagra, Cialis, etcetera, are nothing more than "boner pills" would react if they were told their husband/boyfriend/significant other couldn't have sex again without them.

Don't think it doesn't happen, and don't think it doesn't happen to people you know. They're just not talking about it.

[amborin]

126. good for you, xchrom!

you're a great progressive!

[gleaner]

127. Good for you ....

Anything that improves the quality of people's lives is worthwhile. I wish you the best. It sounds like you have had a tough time.

[Cleobulus]

128. One thing that I find missing in the conversation, for straight women partners...

isn't this about their satisfaction too?

I see a lot of this "men vs. women" thing, and frankly its puzzling, for the straight women who deride or mock the use of this drug, what if your man had ED? What would you do? What would you like him to do?