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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-14-10 09:54 PM
Original message
From 2003: A Time to Choose. How we began to lose the abortion debate in 1995.
A major role in this new outbreak in the abortion wars was played by a man who is now a judge on the Florida Supreme Court. He was also one of the leaders of the attacks against Bill Clinton. He was a Democrat turned Republican named Charles T. Canady.


In this photo provided by the Governor's Press Office, Gov. Charlie Crist, right, shakes hands with Judge Charles T. Canady after he named Canady to the Florida Supreme Court on Thursday as Canady's wife, Jennifer, watches.

He is anti-choice, pro-vouchers for private religious schools, and said he will base his decisions on the will of the Lord.

I found this article by Amy Sullivan from 2003 describing the anti-choice wars of the 1990s. I don't agree with all she says in the article. I believe doctors and women should make those decisions together.

However she presents the role of Florida's Charles Canady vividly, and it is really pretty scary how the right wing messaging took its toll on Democratic candidates.

Canady, then a congressman from Florida was appointed by Governor Crist to the Florida Supreme Court in 2008 along with another strongly anti-choice judge.

Charles Canady was once a Democrat, but he was one of many in the the 90s in Florida who changed parties in order to win. He was raised Southern Baptist and was known for his strong anti-choice views. It is hard to think of him as a Supreme Court judge now.

From 2003 in the Washington Monthly. Sullivan gave it a very apt title.

A Time to Choose. How Democrats started losing the abortion debate.

How Canady got involved. Posting only parts of it as the descriptions get graphic about the procedure. He used it as propaganda, and he was very good at it. Instead of speaking up that such a procedure was rarely used and usually only to save a woman's life.....the Democrats did indeed panic.

In the spring of 1995, during a lull in the abortion war, Rep. Charles Canady (R-Fla.), a conservative anti-abortion politician, came across a disturbing but fascinating paper written a few years earlier by an Ohio doctor named Martin Haskell. The paper outlined an abortion procedure that sounded horrific...The "why" of the procedure did not matter to Canady--he recognized that the "how" was immensely important. He now had a weapon with which to restart the abortion wars, which had lost steam in previous years following several abortion rights victories. The clunky medical term "dilation and extraction" wouldn't do, however. So a staffer suggested "partial-birth" abortion. A new phrase entered the political lexicon.

.."In one swift, brilliant move, Canady had taken the abortion debate away from the question of timing, where it had stalemated, and focused it instead on the gruesome description of a procedure. Although the American public was generally in favor of keeping abortion legal, people didn't want to think about the actual procedures involved, especially when performed on a late-term fetus. This new strategy put those details front and center.


The reaction from the Democrats was to figure out ways to compromise on women's rights instead of taking a firm stand. The power of the Republican noise machine became very obvious, and our party had little in the way of media with which to fight back. There really was not a Democratic messaging machine. I think we are still lacking in that area.

The prospect of debating in circles for years over an abortion procedure whose description gave even staunch abortion rights senators the willies was not a welcome one for Democrats. Many viewed the example of Tom Harkin --who saw a 15-point lead in his 1996 reelection campaign evaporate within the space of two weeks after his opponents raised the "partial-birth" issue--as a cautionary tale. Others were genuinely tired of opposing abortion restrictions that fell just short of being reasonable. Some of these senators were politically liberal, but came from religious backgrounds that had firm, clear teachings on abortion, and they often found it difficult to reconcile their political and religious beliefs.


Exactly what happens when we don't take firm stands on keeping religion and politics apart.

It appears some of the groups for women's choice rights turned a blind eye and did not make much fuss about it.

Under normal circumstances, abortion rights organizations would never let them get away with writing a bill intended to restrict abortion. But the emotional nature of the "partial-birth" debate had swayed public opinion away from a hard "pro-choice" stance and abortion rights organizations worried that the issue might marginalize them.

So just weeks after the veto override vote, Daschle led a group of like-minded senators--(including Patrick Leahy (D-Vt.), Tom Harkin (D-Iowa), Olympia Snowe (R-Maine), Susan Collins (R-Maine), and Joe Lieberman (D-Conn.)--in an effort to develop legislation that would restrict abortion while protecting women...


Amy Sullivan's article makes it sound like kind of a good thing, but I don't agree. Here is more about Daschle's plan..1997. NOW spoke out in alarm about the plan.

Tom Daschle's rigid anti-choice plan from 1997

"We believe the Daschle approach is unconstitutional, as is the Republican ban that denies a woman the right to an abortion to preserve her health -- a right that Roe v. Wade and other cases have consistently protected," Gandy said.

"Daschle's so-called compromise bill, as quoted in the New York Times, permits an exception to the ban for `a severely debilitating disease or impairment specifically caused by the pregnancy (emphasis added),' but makes no provision for a pre-existing, life- and health-threatening `debilitating disease or impairment' that is being exacerbated by the pregnancy. This could include kidney disease, severe hypertension and some cancers. Nor does the Daschle bill allow for an abortion in cases of severe fetal abnormality where it is unlikely the fetus would live long outside the womb, even with technological support.

"The physician certification requirement and the potential loss of a medical license in the Daschle language invites government scrutiny of private medical matters and threatens doctor-patient confidentiality. The intent of this and other abortion ban bills is to control women and to limit their ability to make critical reproductive decisions that affect their families, their health and their lives. These bills represent the ultimate in Congressional arrogance," Gandy charged.


Charles Canady and the GOP took the reins on the topic of women's rights. They have never let up on the issue. We as a party have never effectively fought back.

From another article about Canady from 1998 Connections Magazine. I find things about him fascinating because he embodies the Florida Democratic leaders in so many ways. When we say many Democratic leaders in Florida are "different", it is true. He is a good example.

This is the environment in which I grew up and in which I taught for many years. The rigid newer Southern Baptist movement was formed in large part in Central Florida. I taught many of the leaders in this movement to blend religion and politics. Their goal is to enforce their religious views by law. Their religion carries over to their politics way too often.

Parallel to Canady’s political career was his growth in the faith.

"I was raised in a Christian home and influenced by the preaching of the Gospel from my earliest days, when I was on the ’cradle roll’ at our church," he says. "So at a very young age, I came to have faith in Christ."

Raised and baptized as a Southern Baptist, Canady began attending a Presbyterian church in his hometown 19 years ago. It was at Covenant Presbyterian that Canady met his best friend, Vince Strawbridge, Jr., who eventually introduced him to Jennifer Houghton, a church member and local elementary schoolteacher.

Canady and Houghton married in 1996. She now works in Canady’s Washington office. They attend Bible studies on Capitol Hill–Jennifer with other congressional spouses, the congressman with a small group of House colleagues, including Tim Hutchinson, R-Ark., and Bob Inglis, R-S.C.

"My faith forms everything I do," Canady says. "My faith forms my views about policy issues, about what is right and wrong....My faith also forms the way I relate to people in the legislative process."

Connections Magazine


And an interesting aside note about how Canady plans to function and make decisions as a Supreme Court judge.

When Canady was appointed to the Florida Supreme Court there was an odd difference between the online edition of The Ledger and the print edition.

This was in the print edition.



In the online edition the last word was changed to "law" instead of Lord.

Amy Sullivan's title was true...that was when we started losing the battle for women's rights.

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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-14-10 11:22 PM
Response to Original message
1. Absolutely great piece from Mother Jones...Masters of the Uterus.
This is a look at attempts to have or not have birth control throughout the years.

http://motherjones.com/politics/2010/05/masters-uterus

Just a few snips:

"100 Greek gynecologist Soranus recommends that women hold their breath and jump backward seven times after sex to prevent pregnancy. Sneezing also advised."

"1959 President Eisenhower says promoting birth control "is not a proper political or governmental activity." He changes his mind 9 years later: "Governments must act...Failure would limit the expectations of future generations to abject poverty and suffering."

"1975 Loretta Lynn's "The Pill" is a country hit: "This incubator is overused / Because you've kept it filled / The feelin' good comes easy now / Since I've got the pill."

"1986 President Reagan rejects Surgeon General C. Everett Koop's recommendations for a massive condom PR push and the expansion of sex ed."

"2006 Australian treasurer tries to revive flagging birth rates with the slogan "One for mum, one for dad, one for the country."

2007 Fox rejects Trojan ad featuring singing pigs (below), saying that "contraceptive advertising must stress health-related uses rather than the prevention of pregnancy."
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cornermouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-15-10 05:30 AM
Response to Original message
2. k & r
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Vattel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-15-10 06:18 AM
Response to Original message
3. there should definitely be exceptions
for health issues not caused by the pregnancy, and for cases where the fetus is better off being aborted; but I am in favor of restricting very late abortions for the sake of a healthy fetus. (And this has nothing to do with religion. I'm an agnostic.)
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cornermouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-15-10 07:32 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. You've bought into the lie.
Late term abortions are and always were specifically for health reasons and extreme cases. They were never for aborting a healthy fetus for the heck of it.

I just can't believe how successful the repubs and neo-cons have been with their propaganda.
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Vattel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-15-10 09:00 AM
Response to Reply #4
6. Nice distortion.
Does anyone abort a healthy fetus just for the heck of it? Not to my knowledge. The statistics on the reasons for late term abortions are very incomplete and don't justify any sweeping claims like the one you make. To be fair, a lot depends on how "health reasons" is defined. If preventing any sort of emotional distress is counted as a health reason, then for all I know most any abortion would qualify as an abortion that is performed for health reasons and your claim is correct. But if by "health reasons" you mean something narrower (e.g., serious impairment to the functioning of a bodily organ), then you are pretending to know things that you don't know.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-15-10 09:03 AM
Response to Reply #6
9. "But if by "health reasons" you mean something narrower"
That is exactly Canady's argument. It worked very well.

I think I am updating my list. Bye.
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Lars39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-15-10 09:06 AM
Response to Reply #6
11. You're for forced pregnancy if you discount a woman's psychological health
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Vattel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-15-10 01:27 PM
Response to Reply #11
24. I don't discount a woman's psychological health.
I believe that in certain kinds of cases, late abortions should be allowed because the pregnancy poses a serious threat to the pregnant woman's mental health. My example of a narrower definition of "health reasons" was not intended to imply that I would define health reasons that way.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-15-10 05:54 PM
Response to Reply #24
52. Sounded like you were venturing into the "bad hair day" . ..
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cornermouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-15-10 01:10 PM
Response to Reply #6
20. Because doctors have people
looking over both shoulders and around their elbows constantly. They do not do late term abortions for the heck of it.

Madfloridian has the right idea. Bye.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-15-10 05:13 PM
Response to Reply #6
33. You're wrong . . . in fact,
"Health issues" are health issues -- do you want someone second guessing your health

issues? Granted, there are many reasons for abortion -- and presumably a woman still

has the right to act in "self-defense" even if the offender is a fetus?

You are dismissing "emotional distress" because you question it overall --

it is up to the woman, her family, and medical practioners to decide -- and many

episodes of "emotional distress" can lead to suicide.

In your efforts to have something proven to you, rather than trying to understand what

many others have deemed sufficient, then you are pretending to know things that you

don't know.

Leave it to women, their families, their doctors -- and those who approve these abortions.

That's enough --

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pipi_k Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-15-10 09:01 AM
Response to Reply #4
7. That's why I don't believe in "debate" on this subject...
because debating the viability of a fetus, or when/how much an embryo/fetus might feel pain is a question that may never be answered, and all it does is take attention away from the one basic fact...


That it's nobody's damned business, and is something between a woman and her doctor, and her partner, if she chooses to involve him.


The end. I absolutely refuse to argue/debate anything other than that John or Jane Fundieblow down the street has absolutely no business in my, or any other woman's, uterus.

Period.


Unfortunately, they'll always try to take the focus off of that one fact with morality and religion, etc.




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Vattel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-15-10 09:03 AM
Response to Reply #7
10. The well-being of the innocent is everybody's business.
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mnhtnbb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-15-10 09:45 AM
Response to Reply #10
12. Masterful framing. In my book, private medical decisions are nobody else's business.
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pipi_k Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-15-10 09:55 AM
Response to Reply #10
14. Nice sentiment except
that people who mouth such crap tend not to apply that to ALL "innocents".


There's some real sick "logic" behind the wish to "save innocent babies" from abortion, yet turning away in blatant disregard when many of those "innocent babies" grow a bit and become abused or starving toddlers. Or maybe even dead.


People need to be reminded of that.


So here it is...the story of little Lattie McGee.

He's one innocent who would have been better off aborted before he was even born.

Please. Tell me why he deserved to be treated the way he was. Please tell me who was there to "protect" him.


http://www.postchronicle.com/cgi-bin/artman/exec/view.cgi?archive=58&num=132075
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-15-10 05:25 PM
Response to Reply #14
37. And disregarding the male-dominated Congress which regularly send "innocents" off
Edited on Tue Jun-15-10 05:25 PM by defendandprotect
to perpetual wars for profit -- to come home maimed and suffering with PTSD

and life-long physical illnesses!!

Your post is excellent --
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BlancheSplanchnik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-15-10 11:44 AM
Response to Reply #10
16. by saying that, you set up a tacit and false dichotomy:Fetuses are innocent THUS, Women are
PUNISHABLE.


You are also implying in that "simple" little sentence, that women's lives are secondary to fetuses.


Loaded rhetoric, typical of fanatics who don't value the lives of women.
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Vattel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-15-10 01:21 PM
Response to Reply #16
23. Oh please. Obviously I implied nothing of the sort.
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BlancheSplanchnik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-15-10 02:18 PM
Response to Reply #23
29. oh yes. Highly Charged statements imply their opposite. That is typical of loaded statements
Edited on Tue Jun-15-10 02:20 PM by BlancheSplanchnik
used by autocratic speakers. That style of speech relies on innuendo to denounce opposing views, stop cooperative dialogue and create cognitive dissonance.

It's critical for inflammatory argument because it implies so much while seeming to be innocent; thus, people who favor that form of propaganda have an easy out when called on their bullshit, saying "I meant nothing of the sort. You are oversensitive/wrong/judgemental/crazy"

For further examples of the practice, I refer you to any number of right wing speakers.




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Vattel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-15-10 02:28 PM
Response to Reply #29
30. Man, I didn't know I was that clever.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-15-10 05:28 PM
Response to Reply #30
39. We're just giving you time to show us ....
how "clever" you are -- or aren't --

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BlancheSplanchnik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-15-10 06:25 PM
Response to Reply #30
57. of course you didn't. Because you're not. It doesn't take cleverness to spew ignorant rhetoric.
Edited on Tue Jun-15-10 06:30 PM by BlancheSplanchnik
Ignorant, divisive rhetoric.

It's actually much easier than thinking.




However, to deconstruct the rhetoric does take cleverness.


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Vattel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-15-10 08:05 PM
Response to Reply #57
62. You're much too clever for me.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-15-10 05:27 PM
Response to Reply #23
38. It implies exactly that -- fertilized egg:"innocent" ... pregnant female: guilty -- !!
And, it is of course a term often used by religious freaks who would just as soon

sacrifice a young girl's life rather than permit a fertilized egg to be aborted!!

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Vattel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-15-10 05:49 PM
Response to Reply #38
47. I'm pro-choice when it comes to early abortions
because I don't think that an early fetus can be harmed in a significant way by being aborted. (Long story there.) And you need to think harder if you think that my concern for the well-being of a 20-27 week old fetus implies that anyone who takes the life of such a fetus under any circumstances is guilty of some moral crime and so ought to be punished.

By the way, the fact that a term is used by religious freaks doesn't mean shit.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-15-10 09:19 PM
Response to Reply #47
66. When religion enters the reproduction debate, it mocks reason . . .
Edited on Tue Jun-15-10 09:21 PM by defendandprotect
as we can see from other right wing comments about abortion --

from "partial birth abortion" to "prom date" to "bad hair day."

And, the religious specialty -- 'MURDER' -- which has actually moved

several weak minded religious zealots to murder doctors!

Murder In The Name of God . . . an interesting subject!


Re this . . .

And you need to think harder if you think that my concern for the well-being of a 20-27 week old fetus implies that anyone who takes the life of such a fetus under any circumstances is guilty of some moral crime and so ought to be punished.

Where is anyone but YOU discussing "punishment" . . . ?

We are talking about right wing effort to overturn Roe vs Wade going on since the mid-1970's!

Including "pro-lifers" actually killing doctors as part of that religious fanatacism re fetuses.

What we need to see in replacement of that fanaticism is an equal concern for living women/girls

who may become pregnant and an equal concern for all life -- including living children!

We need to see an equal concern for improving our health care system and saving children

who are now dying in childbirth and as newborns.

We need to see an equal concern about our government's killing and maiming millions in wars for

oil and heroin, real estate and natural resources.

True challenges to this 500 years of violence by this government --








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Vattel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-16-10 06:59 AM
Response to Reply #66
68. sigh
You say: "Where is anyone but YOU discussing 'punishment' . . . ?"

My response: see post 16, the one you defended.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-16-10 01:46 PM
Response to Reply #68
71. The discussion was about the symbolism in suggesting there is an "innocent" in abortion....
Edited on Wed Jun-16-10 01:56 PM by defendandprotect
Here's Msg #16 . . .

by saying that, you set up a tacit and false dichotomy:Fetuses are innocent THUS, Women are
PUNISHABLE.

You are also implying in that "simple" little sentence, that women's lives are secondary to fetuses.

Loaded rhetoric, typical of fanatics who don't value the lives of women.


The poster is charging you with using right wing "loaded rhetoric" --

And my interpretation of what poster meant by this ... "thus, Women are punishable"

is patriarchy vs female equality -- i.e., male-domination capable of overturning Roe vs Wade.

Yes, forcing females back to illegal abortions is life-threatening -- and too often

patriarchy/organized patriarchal religion could care less about that in their continuing war on

women. The evidence of that is the many Catholic hospitals which used to "save

the baby" and let the mother die! How many men were handed newborns with the expectation that

they'd be celebrating the preservation of that new life as the shock hit them that their wives,

or sisters, or aunts were permitted to die? That is all "punishment" but not in any legal sense.


And you need to think harder if you think that my concern for the well-being of a 20-27 week old fetus implies that anyone who takes the life of such a fetus under any circumstances is guilty of some moral crime and so ought to be punished.

And, here, it seemd to me you were discussing direct criminal "punishment" --

which is also something that the right wing certainly supports and works for!

If that's not what you meant -- glad to hear it!






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Zoeisright Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-15-10 01:19 PM
Response to Reply #10
21. No, it's not. It's none of your fucking business what another woman
chooses to do with her body.

GOD, I'm sick of these self-righteous, smug, know-it-alls who think they have the right to tell other people what to do.
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mnhtnbb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-15-10 01:56 PM
Response to Reply #21
28. +1
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-15-10 05:28 PM
Response to Reply #21
40. +1000%
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-15-10 05:21 PM
Response to Reply #10
36. And who is "the innocent" in cases of rape and incest?
Edited on Tue Jun-15-10 05:23 PM by defendandprotect
a fertilized egg?

or a 12-14 year old who is 20 weeks pregnant before her parents find out?

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Vattel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-15-10 05:51 PM
Response to Reply #36
48. I'm not against abortion in cases of rape and incest.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-15-10 09:23 PM
Response to Reply #48
67. So you don't have "concerns" over those cases -- you can dismiss it -- ???
Interesting!
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-15-10 05:20 PM
Response to Reply #7
35. While I agree with your view wholeheartedly, I still think that those on the anti-abortion and
"narrow view" side need to continue to hear the reality --

especially when the GOP/right wing/religious propaganda continues to drone on and on.

I recall that Dr. Tiller did at least one abortion on a young girl from a Muslim state

who was under a threat of death if it was discovered that she was pregnant. Don't know

the circumstances, whether it was rape or incest, whatever.

IMO, that's one of the purest examples of a female's "right to self-defense" vs a fetus/

fertilized egg.

And, of course, the other thing that we rarely see in these dicusssions of second term

abortions is that anything past first trimester becomes much more of a threat and impact

on the female's body.

Also, the Catholic Church up to something like 400, as I recall it, permitted abortions.

To viability!! Animation!! That would be fifth month or so --

Meanwhile, nature has put her trust in women -- and nature is pro-choice.

There were many means provided by nature to prevent conception and to end conception and

pregnancy and fertility. Much of those plants/drugs and information was destroyed by

patriarchy. RU-486 is based on one of those plants, still -- if I recall correctly.





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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-15-10 08:24 AM
Response to Reply #3
5.  Canady did his job well, didn't he? Unbelievable.
Glad you know better than the doctor.
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Vattel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-15-10 09:01 AM
Response to Reply #5
8. Um, it's partly an ethical issue.
Last time I checked, physicians don't necessarily have the last word on ethics.
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mnhtnbb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-15-10 09:50 AM
Response to Reply #8
13. Last time I checked, self-righteous indignation from an unrelated party did not entitle
anyone to make a medical decision for someone else.
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Vattel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-15-10 01:30 PM
Response to Reply #13
26. There are laws that do restrict what medical decisions
can be made. Are you opposed to all such laws?
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-15-10 05:33 PM
Response to Reply #26
42. Seems you're opposed to the laws of Roe vs Wade . . .
and -- looks like you're running out of debate material --

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pipi_k Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-15-10 09:57 AM
Response to Reply #8
15. Neither does a third party who has no personal involvent in the issue
other than believing s/he is the last word on what's "right" or "wrong" or "moral".

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Zoeisright Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-15-10 01:20 PM
Response to Reply #8
22. Yeah, the ethical issue is patient autonomy.
In other words, all people have the right to decide what happens with their bodies. A pregnant woman can refuse any treatment she wants to, even if it would save the fetus' life.

Do a little research.
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Vattel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-15-10 01:45 PM
Response to Reply #22
27. The scope of one's right to control one's own body
(and, more broadly, the scope of one's right to liberty) is limited. At least arguably, well-being and autonomy are both values that are relevant to what legal restrictions, if any, should be placed on a woman's right to have a late abortion.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-15-10 05:36 PM
Response to Reply #27
43. Women don't have a right to "self defense" ... if the attacker is a fetus?
Late term abortions are all approved -- they have to be -- because it is a very

serious medical procedure which can be fatal for the pregnant female -- and/or

severely damage her future fertility --

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cornermouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-15-10 03:21 PM
Response to Reply #22
31. And yet, those who would restrict a woman from a late
term abortion usually believe that a mother has the right to refuse to get life-saving treatment for her child. Think about that one.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-15-10 05:37 PM
Response to Reply #31
44. There is also the universal right to "self-defense" involved and rarely mentioned ...
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Vattel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-15-10 05:52 PM
Response to Reply #44
49. I agree
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-15-10 09:03 PM
Response to Reply #49
64. We also have rising rates of infant mortality in America . . . due to
Edited on Tue Jun-15-10 09:06 PM by defendandprotect
a lack of health care and reproductive care --

Our health care record is abysmal --

Lots of things which show us the true lack of patriarchy's concern for children

and women --

Some say that war is actually a war on women and children -- I'd agree!

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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-15-10 05:31 PM
Response to Reply #8
41. The "ethics" of abortion were settled a long time ago . . .
Women have a right still to "self-defense" even if the offender is a fetus.

Women, families, doctors make these decisions --

as ethical as any decisions made by male-dominated hierarches, churches, Congress'

and branches of government --

Let me know where you've ever heard that patriarchy is "ethical" -- ???!!!

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Vattel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-15-10 05:53 PM
Response to Reply #41
50. I guess that settles it.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-15-10 09:10 PM
Response to Reply #50
65. Are you?
There are laws that do restrict what medical decisions
can be made. Are you opposed to all such laws?


As we've been pointing out it is YOU who's challenging the decisions of the

medical community -- ALL LATE TERM ABORTIONS HAVE TO BE APPROVED.



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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-15-10 05:02 PM
Response to Reply #3
32. The abortions you are talking about -- late term -- have to be approved . . ..
Edited on Tue Jun-15-10 05:05 PM by defendandprotect
every one of them -- because a late term abortion ENDANGERS THE LIFE OF THE PREGNANT

FEMALE. It's not something undertaken lightly because of that.

The methods used are well thought out to prevent harm to the female's future sterility

and to prevent further problems. One of the major reasons for these abortions is a fetus

with a tremendously enlarged head -- and/or a brain growing outside the cranium.

These are certainly NOT viable pregnancies.

In situations where there may be a viable fetus, then it is an issue of "self-defense" to

save the life of the pregnant female. Will you aregue with that right?

And, their numbers are tiny -- about 1 in every country in every state every year.

Now -- explain to me, please, how that becomes a concern to you ---

aside from the impact of right wing politica; propaganda?

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Vattel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-15-10 05:19 PM
Response to Reply #32
34. I'm not against late term abortions
if the fetus is not viable, or would survive only a short time outside the womb, or if the life of the pregnant woman is at stake, or if the woman would suffer serious health consequences if the fetus is not aborted. Do all late term abortions in the US fall into one of those categories? I'm happy to be convinced that they do. Then my concerns would vanish.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-15-10 05:44 PM
Response to Reply #34
45. Well, you're excluding "emotional well-being" .... do you want to be the judge of that?
Edited on Tue Jun-15-10 05:45 PM by defendandprotect

And perhaps risk a female commiting suicide because she couldn't get an abortion?

Or seeking an illegal abortion and risking her life?

Maybe it's a very young girl?

Late term abortions have to be medically approved -- so someone else is the judge of that.

You are questioning the judgment of the medical community. And the reason that

these late term abortions have to be approved is because they are dangerous for the pregnant

female. The later the abortion, the more dangerous it is.

Your "concerns" re this issue also vanish in the wake of the tremendous harm patriarchy has

done to the lives of people all over the world -- to our own soldiers --

and vs the organized patriarchal religious fanaticism we still see all over the world --

In fact, I remember one case Dr. Tiller had where a young Muslim girl was seeking a late

term abortion because she would have been murdered if it were known that she were pregnant.

Which life do you want to save there when only one can be saved? Or both may be ended?

Nature favors women -- and nature is pro-choice --

Our problems begin with patriarchal controls over women's reproduction and Roe vs Wade

weakens that control.

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Vattel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-15-10 05:58 PM
Response to Reply #45
55. I appreciate your concerns.
I share them, but I am also concerned for the well-being of 20-week-old and older fetuses.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-15-10 08:57 PM
Response to Reply #55
63. There's your problem . . . in every area of life a 20-week old fetus predominates . . .
Edited on Tue Jun-15-10 09:02 PM by defendandprotect
Again, these are medicial decisions -- on what basis are you questioning them?

On what basis are you qualified to challenge them?

Try getting excited about actual existing lives -- the lives of women who are mothers,

working jobs, taking care of children --

existing children who are in orphanages --

All the victims of our wars who include live children -- now often without limbs --

blown up by our bombs -- wars put in place by males and kept going by males.

1 million Muslims now dead in Iraq . . .

500,000 infants dead in Iraq due to Gulf War I -- and depleted uranium.

and you're concern is based on questioning approved late term abortions!







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Vattel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-16-10 07:10 AM
Response to Reply #63
69. If it's approved, it must be OK (sarcasm)
If I'm not a doctor, I can't be qualified to have ethical objections to decisions that some doctors make. (sarcasm)
This is tiresome; I'm done. (not sarcasm)
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-16-10 01:38 PM
Response to Reply #69
70. That's the basis of your lack of perspective . . . YOU want control over women's decisions re
reproduction --

it's not sufficient for you that medical professionals have control and they

must be approved --

Yes, it is tiresome -- and this latest go round with you has proven that again --

though, didn't you have a different "username" the last time?

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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-15-10 11:49 AM
Response to Original message
17. That word change is ominous.
I believe we need a deeper, wider, and more concrete separation clause than the first amendment gives us. Having supreme court judges base their decisions on their religious beliefs simply scares me.


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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-15-10 11:59 AM
Response to Reply #17
18. And Canady will base his decisions on religion.
He has made it clear.

I was stunned when Crist appointed him.
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-15-10 12:25 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. Yet another concrete example
of how corrupt our nation has become.

And of how difficult it is to effect positive change.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-15-10 05:48 PM
Response to Reply #17
46. Our Supreme Court is certainly political . . . trying to hide that is useless ....
Edited on Tue Jun-15-10 05:51 PM by defendandprotect
and same is true, of course, re State SC's . . .

Agree with you on the religious fanaticism --

and much of it is created by the right wing --

GOP gave start-up financing for the Christian Coalition in the 80's --

Scaife funded Dobson -- and other wealthy right wingers financed Bauer's organization.

It's like Cheney said -- the right wing creates our reality and we life it!!


---------

If you're interested, here's more --

Remember those violent Islamic text books -- ????

The right wing wealthy have kept right wing stuff going ---

Posted by defendandprotect in Latest Breaking News
Sun May 02nd 2010, 09:38 PM

from Bill Buckley's mag to all the right wing organizations --

After Bill Buckley died some right wing memos came floating out making clear

that the CIA had been financing right wing members of Congress -- two that were

named were Sen. Strom Thurmond and Rep. Gerry Ford.

CIA took right wing many from any right wing sources -- including KKK.

Pat Buchanan also was financed by them.

GOP gave start up funding for the Christian Coalition -- Richard Scaife financed

Dobson's organization -- and other right wing wealthy financed Bauer's organization.

Using religion as a tool of conquest is an old pattern for the right wing.

And, take a look at this . . .



The US spent $100's of millions shooting down Soviet helicopters yet didn't spend a penny helping Afghanis rebuild their infrastructure and institutions.

They also spent millions producing jihad preaching, fundamentalist textbooks and shipping them off to Afghanistan. These were the same text books the Western media discussed in shocked tones and told their audiences were used by fundamentalist teachers to brainwash their charges and to inculcate in young Afghanis a jihad mindset, hatred of foreigners and non-Muslims etc.


Have you heard about the Afghan Jihad schoolbook scandal?

Or perhaps I should say, "Have you heard about the Afghan Jihad schoolbook scandal that's waiting to happen?"

Because it has been almost unreported in the Western media that the US government shipped, and continues to ship, millions of Islamist textbooks into Afghanistan.

Only one English-speaking newspaper we could find has investigated this issue: the Washington Post. The story appeared March 23rd.

Washington Post investigators report that during the past twenty years the US has spent millions of dollars producing fanatical schoolbooks, which were then distributed in Afghanistan.

"The primers, which were filled with talk of jihad and featured drawings of guns, bullets, soldiers and mines, have served since then as the Afghan school system's core curriculum. Even the Taliban used the American-produced books..." -- Washington Post, 23 March 2002 (1)

According to the Post the U.S. is now "...wrestling with the unintended consequences of its successful strategy of stirring Islamic fervor to fight communism."

So the books made up the core curriculum in Afghan schools. And what were the unintended consequences? The Post reports that according to unnamed officials the schoolbooks "steeped a generation in violence."

How could this result have been unintended? Did they expect that giving fundamentalist schoolbooks to schoolchildren would make them moderate Muslims?

Nobody with normal intelligence could expect to distribute millions of violent Islamist schoolbooks without influencing school children towards violent Islamism. Therefore one would assume that the unnamed US officials who, we are told, are distressed at these "unintended consequences" must previously have been unaware of the Islamist content of the schoolbooks.

But surely someone was aware. The US government can't write, edit, print and ship millions of violent, Muslim fundamentalist primers into Afghanistan without high officials in the US government approving those primers.

http://www.tenc.net/articles/jared/jihad.h ...





If you're interested, US created Taliban/Al Qaeda . . .


The CIA's Intervention in Afghanistan
Interview with Zbigniew Brzezinski,
President Jimmy Carter's National Security Adviser

Le Nouvel Observateur, Paris, 15-21 January 1998

Question: The former director of the CIA, Robert Gates, stated in his memoirs <"From the Shadows">, that American intelligence services began to aid the Mujahadeen in Afghanistan 6 months before the Soviet intervention. In this period you were the national security adviser to President Carter. You therefore played a role in this affair. Is that correct?

Brzezinski: Yes. According to the official version of history, CIA aid to the Mujahadeen began during 1980, that is to say, after the Soviet army invaded Afghanistan, 24 Dec 1979. But the reality, secretly guarded until now, is completely otherwise Indeed, it was July 3, 1979 that President Carter signed the first directive for secret aid to the opponents of the pro-Soviet regime in Kabul. And that very day, I wrote a note to the president in which I explained to him that in my opinion this aid was going to induce a Soviet military intervention.

Q: Despite this risk, you were an advocate of this covert action. But perhaps you yourself desired this Soviet entry into war and looked to provoke it?

B: It isn't quite that. We didn't push the Russians to intervene, but we knowingly increased the probability that they would.

Q: When the Soviets justified their intervention by asserting that they intended to fight against a secret involvement of the United States in Afghanistan, people didn't believe them. However, there was a basis of truth. You don't regret anything today?

Q: Regret what? That secret operation was an excellent idea. It had the effect of drawing the Russians into the Afghan trap and you want me to regret it? The day that the Soviets officially crossed the border, I wrote to President Carter. We now have the opportunity of giving to the USSR its Vietnam war. Indeed, for almost 10 years, Moscow had to carry on a war unsupportable by the government, a conflict that brought about the demoralization and finally the breakup of the Soviet empire.

Q: And neither do you regret having supported the Islamic fundamentalism, having given arms and advice to future terrorists?

Q: What is most important to the history of the world? The Taliban or the collapse of the Soviet empire? Some stirred-up Moslems or the liberation of Central Europe and the end of the cold war?


http://www.takeoverworld.info/brzezinski_i ... ...









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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-15-10 05:57 PM
Response to Reply #17
53. Separation of Church and State is what guarantees our right to free thought, free will,
and free conscience --

Without it, there is no guarantee of it --

And, as I recall, it was a Catholic nun who pointed that out to my class!!

That was in the days when it looked like the RCC might begin to support democracy!!

Including within the church!!
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-17-10 08:52 AM
Response to Reply #53
73. Good point. nt
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cornermouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-15-10 01:28 PM
Response to Original message
25. I have no idea which side of the aisle Guttmacher is on however they bring up a valid point
http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/ib14.html

Either way, these estimates must be viewed as tentative. One uncertainty stems from the limited number of states on which the estimates are based, since these states may not be representative of the nation as a whole and their reported data may be incompl ete. In addition, because the number of providers who perform late abortions is very small, they may have relatively large caseloads; this factor may bias the reporting, depending on whether states in which these providers are located are part of the NCHS sample. There may be errors by clinicians in their evaluation or recording of the gestational age. Finally, although all states report to the NCHS the number of natural fetal deaths beyond 20 weeks of gestation (see Table 2), some of these deaths may erroneously be classified as abortions if the removal of the fetus is accomplished by the same procedure as an induced abortion.=paragraph

Medical coding is how they track statistics. A miscarriage is not classified as a miscarriage. It is classified as a spontaneous abortion. Typically if they do a D & C after a miscarriage or "spontaneous abortion" it codes to missed abortion 1st or 2nd trimester. In other words, they've got their thumb on the scale and are tilting it their way.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-15-10 05:53 PM
Response to Reply #25
51. Interesting . . . Thank you!
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Soylent Brice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-15-10 05:57 PM
Response to Original message
54. K&R
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MellowDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-15-10 06:10 PM
Response to Original message
56. The pro-choice side's messaging has failed in many ways...
It is why the popular support for or against abortion has generally not changed even as views on other issues have become more liberal.

Maybe they need to change tactics.
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BlancheSplanchnik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-15-10 06:35 PM
Response to Reply #56
59. I am so with you on this. Framing it as a privacy and personal choice issue
makes the dire mistake of negating the entire reason abortion rights are so critical: it is because




ABORTION SAVES LIVES. WOMEN'S LIVES
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MellowDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-15-10 06:50 PM
Response to Reply #59
61. Exactly...
not to mention, they should really stress how the repression of sex ed and contraceptive use only leads to more abortions or unwanted pregnancies, which can only lead to more suffering, whatever one's opinion on the humanity of a fetus.
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Pashan Donating Member (1 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-15-10 06:35 PM
Response to Original message
58. Let's be fair to the Democrats
Madfloridian, you stated the Democrats "did indeed
panic" instead of "speaking up that such a procedure
was rarely used and usually only to save a woman's life."
 They couldn't say that because they would be smacked down by
Haskell's own words.  In that 1992 paper it stated he
"routinely performs this procedure on all patients 20
through 24 weeks," which is probably why he has performed
about 1,000 of these.  Then, in a 1993 American Medical News
interview, he said "And I'll be quite frank:  most of my
abortions are elective in that 20-24 week range...In my
particular case, probably 20% (of this procedure) are for
genetic reasons.  And the other 80% are purely elective."
 
How can Democrate get around his words and say this is used
rarely and only to save a woman's life?  
Plus, it didn't help that he described the whole procedure,
including this choice part: "the surgeon takes a pair of
blunt scissors in the right hand, he advances the tip, curved
down, along the spine and under his middle finger until he
feels it contact the base of the skull under the tip of his
middle finger.  The surgeon forces the scissors into the base
of the skull and spreads the scissors to enlarge the opening. 
The surgeon removes the scissors and introduces a suction
catheter into this hole and evacuates the skull
contents."
Any other ideas on what the Democrats can say?
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-15-10 06:49 PM
Response to Reply #58
60. I have not researched Haskell. But if he performed as many as he says...
then the problem is his.

You have also made it an issue of being an unpleasant procedure. I can think of many unpleasant procedures, but it is not my right to make judgement.

Canady did a fabulous job of messaging. We did not and we have not.

Read The Republican Noise Machine.

Oh, welcome to DU.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-16-10 02:13 PM
Response to Reply #58
72. "Partial truth abortion" . . . about one in every county in US every year ...
Edited on Wed Jun-16-10 02:14 PM by defendandprotect
When you say "Let's be fair to the Democrats" keep in mind this is a

male-dominated party as well as a male-dominated Congress.

They may have "panicked" at Haskell's words, but they don't seem to panic

much at sending young males off to war for a decade and longer.

They don't seem to be kept awake nights thinking of America's homeless --

Nor by the millions of women around the world who are harmed by patriarchal

restrictions on family planning and abortion.


However many late term abortions Haskell did, doesn't change the statistics --

about one in every county in America every year.


Also, keep in mind that the medical community had to have been approving the

abortions that Haskell did. And the method.

Separating out an "elective" procedure doesn't tell us very much about the condition

or medical necessity. A knee operation can be elective. Elective can simply mean

something scheduled vs an emergency.

Also keep in mind that late term abortions are dangerous for the pregnant female --

more dangerous as every week goes by. That's why they have to be approved.


Additionally, re the procedure itself, it is intended to create an abortion -- a dead fetus.

The doctor is trying to insure that the female's future fertility is preserved -- that her

womb is not harmed. And, of course, many of these abortions are done because the fetus has

a greatly enlarged head. Sometimes the brain is growing outside the cranium.


----------------------


Madfloridian, you stated the Democrats "did indeed
panic" instead of "speaking up that such a
procedure was rarely used and usually only to save a woman's
life." They couldn't say that because they would be
smacked down by Haskell's own words. In that 1992 paper it
stated he "routinely performs this procedure on all
patients 20 through 24 weeks," which is probably why he
has performed about 1,000 of these. Then, in a 1993 American
Medical News interview, he said "And I'll be quite frank:
most of my abortions are elective in that 20-24 week
range...In my particular case, probably 20% (of this
procedure) are for genetic reasons. And the other 80% are
purely elective."
How can Democrate get around his words and say this is used
rarely and only to save a woman's life?
Plus, it didn't help that he described the whole procedure,
including this choice part: "the surgeon takes a pair of
blunt scissors in the right hand, he advances the tip, curved
down, along the spine and under his middle finger until he
feels it contact the base of the skull under the tip of his
middle finger. The surgeon forces the scissors into the base
of the skull and spreads the scissors to enlarge the opening.
The surgeon removes the scissors and introduces a suction
catheter into this hole and evacuates the skull
contents."
Any other ideas on what the Democrats can say?

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