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How long can democracy survive that only sometimes & then only partially enacts will of the people?

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yurbud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-17-10 12:32 PM
Original message
Poll question: How long can democracy survive that only sometimes & then only partially enacts will of the people?
While the Obama administration is an improvement on the Bushies (hell, REAGAN would be an improvement on the Bushies), Obama's tactic for ''change'' has become all too clear: let the rich write their own rules in exchange for some concessions to the middle and working class.

So health care reform must force people to buy private insurance in exchange not excluding people for pre-existing conditions or kicking you off when you get sick, financial and Wall Street reform requires the input of the scammers who created the problem, and after trillions (when you add Federal Reserve loans to what Congress gave) are given to Wall Street scammers, the President and Congress talk about budget cuts for the working and middle class programs because Wall Street demands it.

On energy, the president gives five times as much money to alternative energy as his predecessor, but must also give loan guarantees to the nuke industry and open off-shore oil drilling to the oil industry that we already made a substantial donation to by invading Iraq.

On K-12 education, more funding can only come if it is based on the results of for-profit standardized tests, and the money goes to for-profit charter schools, and if it doesn't, the schools are subject to mass firings as a not so subtle way of busting the middle class teachers unions.

Our trade agreements favor the investor class completely and destroy the blue collar middle class by outsourcing their jobs and even white collar jobs like computer programming, customer service operators, and even corporate lawyering.

Rather than a responsive democracy, we seem to have a system where the rich let the working and middle class have just enough to keep us complacent, but that ''just enough'' keeps getting smaller and smaller.

The trajectory of the Democratic Party seems to be going the same way. As the Republican formula of relying on the religious right and white racial resentments to get their votes to enact their corporate agenda is becoming less effective, rather than offer a different agenda, those at the top of the Democratic Party, the DLC & Blue Dogs in particular, seem to want to take over the job of carrying corporate water and only alter how they sell it to the public.

That seemed to work for Bill Clinton, but after the naked service to the rich of the Bush administration, people see through it and expect more--a lot more. Our awareness of what other industrialized countries have, what is possible, and the corrupt machinations going on behind the scenes is a genie that can't be put back in the bottle in the age of the internet.

The other revelation of the Bush era that can't be swept under the carpet is that any assumption that the rich are rich because they are smarter, harder working, or morally superior was shattered by the person and ''success'' of George W. Bush himself, a lazy, incurious, cruel degenerate, who it is becoming increasingly clear was not the bottom of the barrel of our financial elite, but a typical example, especially of their moral squalor.

Obama is clearly of the middle class, but he seems unwilling to use the power of his office enact irreversible change, like FDR did with Social Security and LBJ did with Medicare and Civil Rights, that would protect us and weaken the power of the wealthy to grind us into a pate they serve with crackers.

How long can a system survive when most of the citizens are aware that it isn't serving them but instead, an undeserving minority who were as likely to have inherited or stolen their wealth as earned it?
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Deep13 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-17-10 12:34 PM
Response to Original message
1. Democracy is dead. nt
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detroitredwings Donating Member (3 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-17-10 12:37 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. good thing we have a constitutional republic
:silly:
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Deep13 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-17-10 01:22 PM
Response to Reply #3
6. Unfortunately, the Constitution does nothing to regular what is effectively...
...a third level of government (in addition to state and federal). There are no real checks or balances on gigantic, multinational corporations.
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Oregone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-17-10 12:37 PM
Response to Original message
2. Democracy, or the Illusion of Democracy?
The illusion can go on almost forever under the proper circumstances.
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Tierra_y_Libertad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-17-10 12:37 PM
Response to Original message
4. More apt question: "How long can an oligarchy calling itself a democracy survive?"
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dgibby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-17-10 12:37 PM
Response to Original message
5. What Democracy? n/t
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dmallind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-17-10 01:23 PM
Response to Original message
7. So far depending on interpretation about 1000 years
IIRC that's the oldest continuous democracy of a sort in Iceland.

Democracies ALWAYS only sometimes and only partially enact the will of the people. Even the purest form of democracy tried so far - the popular votes by all qualifying voters on major issues in the Golde Ange of Athens - did not enact the will of all the people, and was subject to administration by a small minority.

No modern democracy can even get that close. Nor, to be honest, should it. Majority rule is only good with an educated and detached majority. Rule by poll would be a surefire recipe for both chaos and oppression of unpopular minorities.
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Radical Activist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-17-10 01:28 PM
Response to Original message
8. 234 years so far. It worked for FDR and LBJ.
A lot of what they did was undone. I think Obama is aware of this and is doing many things in a way that's designed to make them permanent.

Also, you're wrong about alternative energy. The stimulus bill was the largest investment in alternative energy and efficiency projects in American history, by far.
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yurbud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-17-10 03:09 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. health care reform looks pretty easy to unravel since it's really just regulation of private ins.
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yurbud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-17-10 03:10 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. by contrast, any attempt to unravel Soc. Sec. or Medicare would blow up in pols faces
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Radical Activist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-17-10 03:19 PM
Response to Reply #9
12. I certainly hope it will be easy to change.
Edited on Thu Jun-17-10 03:19 PM by Radical Activist
That's probably the idea. But it's not as though Congress passed a bill as far-reaching as what Obama asked for.
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yurbud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-17-10 08:15 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. he twisted arms to weaken not strengthen it. If he had wanted to strengthen it...
Joe Lieberman, Blanche Lincoln, Max Baucus and the other DLC moral filth would have been in the hot seat instead of being congratulated by the White House for digging in their heels to block a public option.
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Radical Activist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-17-10 08:18 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. I don't believe every bit of unsourced gossip I read. n/t
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yurbud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-17-10 08:19 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. he thanked them publicly, so it was hardly gossip.
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Radical Activist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-17-10 08:41 PM
Response to Reply #15
17. He thanked them for voting for the bill, not for weakening it.
You know that. Be serious. Do you really think there are 60 Senators just waiting to be given orders by the President? Why didn't Obama weaken it in the House if that was his secret evil plan all along?
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yurbud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-17-10 08:47 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. they held out for a bill with no public option and weaker regulation of insurance--you know that
and if Obama spent half as much time twisting the arms of Blue Dogs and DLCers as he did looking for non-existent Republican votes, he could have gotten a stronger bill.


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Radical Activist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-17-10 08:57 PM
Response to Reply #18
20. So you acknowledge that it was Democratic Senators who forced a weaker bill.
And it was Obama who finally got them to go along. Thank you. You're aiming at the wrong target if you blame Obama for being forced to compromise.
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yurbud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-17-10 09:26 PM
Response to Reply #20
24. Obama wasn't the one who was forced, it was progressives who were forced by the corporate minority
of the Democratic Party.
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yurbud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-17-10 08:48 PM
Response to Reply #17
19. you are rewriting history if you're implying Obama had any problem with the Baucus version of HCR
because it wasn't progressive enough.
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county worker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-17-10 03:16 PM
Response to Original message
11. When ever is the "will of the people" going to be heard in the streets?
It is our own damned fault! We don't know how to do anything about it but type our despair on a keyboard!

There are very few real activists anymore.
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yurbud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-17-10 08:23 PM
Response to Reply #11
16. going in the street and demonstrating doesn't do much good if it won't be covered in the media
if 50 Tea Party nitwits show up somewhere, it makes the national news, but the greatest worldwide demonstrations in history before the Iraq War barely merited a blip.

The only way demonstrations will help is if something is physically blocked from happening, people are chased out of their offices, or troops or police refuse beat, arrest, or intimidate the crowd as happened after the coup against Gorbachev in Russia.
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The Gunslinger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-17-10 09:03 PM
Response to Original message
21. It's already dead.
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TheKentuckian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-17-10 09:14 PM
Response to Original message
22. Other: Until we stop putting up with it or resources are so exploited and misused
that the habitat can no longer support humans. Whichever comes first.
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OwnedByFerrets Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-17-10 09:16 PM
Response to Original message
23. Our democracy was lost in 2000
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TheWatcher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-17-10 09:29 PM
Response to Original message
25. America is Dead.
Edited on Thu Jun-17-10 09:30 PM by TheWatcher
What replaces it has yet to fully implement itself.

And right now, the Replacement is not looking too good.
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yurbud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-18-10 11:45 PM
Response to Reply #25
26. Progressive city-states on the periphery and Mad Max anarchy in the conservative interior
with Sarah Palin playing Grace Jones part?
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amborin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-19-10 12:12 AM
Response to Original message
27. whoops, accidentally chose the first poll option; didn't mean to
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