A quote from Theodore Roosevelt-

[asdjrocky]

"To announce that there must be no criticism of the president, or that we are to stand by the president right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public."

Food for thought...

[asdjrocky]

1. Here's one from Prof. Howard Zinn-

"If those in charge of our society - politicians, corporate executives, and owners of press and television - can dominate our ideas, they will be secure in their power. They will not need soldiers patrolling the streets. We will control ourselves."

[treestar]

18. that's our choice

We don't have to believe things just because some talking head says so.

[YOY]

2. There seems to be an end goal of "civility"...such rules will only bring enforced concensus.

n/t

[Enrique]

3. TR is a PUMA n/t

[asdjrocky]

5. That's just silly.

[Little Star]

40. lol

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

4. I don't think TR would have appreciated his quote being used as a strawman.

Just saying.

[asdjrocky]

6. Why don't you check with him and let me know?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

7. Alright, I just talked to him on the phone.

He says this OP is bad and you should feel bad.

[asdjrocky]

8. The guilt is killing me.

How do I face myself now?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

9. Good question.

I don't know how you do it.

[asdjrocky]

10. It's tough without a mirror.

A reflective pond helps.

[treestar]

20. I called him too

He said if he got as much criticism from his own party as Obama gets, he'd have kicked some ass!

[redqueen]

11. Who said there should be no criticism?

Just curious... I know under Bush people had to sign statements to get into appearances and stuff... loyalty oaths, were they called?

Anyway... who's doing this now?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

12. This guy.

[asdjrocky]

13. We're told we can criticize policy only, not the person who makes the policy.

We've been told this just recently on DU, and I used this quote to germinate discussion on the topic. Not fighting, discussion.

[redqueen]

17. Criticism of individuals is still allowed.

It's not as black and white as you're trying to make it seem.

[damntexdem]

27. See several posts above yours.

All I can is is "bully for Teddy!"

[redqueen]

28. Could you be more specific?

Still not seeing it.

[racaulk]

14. Theodore Roosevelt must want Sarah Palin to be President!!1! nt

[WeDidIt]

15. What would you consider "Obama is no different from Bush"?

Is that fair criticism or is that over the top name calling?

[asdjrocky]

19. I don't hear a name being called there.

Unless of course, calling someone the same as Bush is tantamount to name calling. Maybe so, I don't know.

I will say, I think President Obama is obviously different from Bush, but I'll also say, as I've said before, these guys belong to a club none of us will ever belong to.

[WeDidIt]

21. That explains a lot

Thank you.

I think you should go back and read Skinner's new rules. That is not fair criticism of Obama.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

22. You're dodging the question.

[asdjrocky]

24. No, I'm not.

And perhaps you're spending way too much time thinking about this.

[treestar]

16. No one says there should be no criticism

And T.R. also did not say "you must criticize the President over everything, or you are a mindless hero worshipper, or you must find something to criticize or you are a zombie cheerleader."

We can refrain from criticizing if we think it will only help the rethugs. That's an option.

And we can defend the POTUS from what we see are irrational or baseless attacks, no matter who they are from.

[asdjrocky]

23. I'm just quoting his actual words.

I have no way of knowing all the things TR did not say.

[NJmaverick]

25. Consider this quote by Albert Einstein

“The individual must not merely wait and criticize, he must defend the cause the best he can. The fate of the world will be such as the world deserves.”

[damntexdem]

26. Not even food for thought -- just a basic simple truth.

[Altoid_Cyclist]

29. When the idiot son was still in office, I had that saying taped to the wall beside my desk.

I also used it as my screensaver since I was surrounded by shrub loving co-workers.

For some reason, I have been thinking about that saying a lot recently. I don't mean it in a personal manner like when shrub was still "deciding", but just in general it's an idea worth remembering.

As far as I know, every human is capable of errors myself included (more often than I care to think about) and therefore should be open to criticism if and when they're wrong. This applies to all levels of civilization from politicians to CEO's to blue collar workers.

It's as relevant today as it was back in TR's days. Constructive critisism can be a useful tool of a Democracy.

[NeoGreen]

30. The quote doesn't stand up to the...

... UCMJ.

The quote is for The People, not for the generals who have a sworn obligation not to criticize.

It is a good quote, but not for the case in question.

[asdjrocky]

34. I believe we are talking about two different things. nt

[NeoGreen]

42. My apologies...

... I was likely reading intent into the timing of your post; intent that wasn't there.

If we do not offer criticism, hopefully constructive, then we are not much better then the R's who
find no fault in Bush.

Another quote that I like (from a fictional character) in regards to Patriotism (which I might argue is related to a slavish devotion to a President from your own party):

"But you know as well as I, patriotism is a word; and one that generally comes to mean either my country, right or wrong, which is infamous, or my country is always right, which is imbecile."
Patrick O'Brian

[LWolf]

31. k&r

[branders seine]

32. I say run Teddy's ass out of here!

On a rail!

[Odin2005]

33. Why do you hate Obama!?! /SARCASM

:sarcasm:

[Bluenorthwest]

35. More from TR:

"The President is merely the most important among a large number of public servants. He should be supported or opposed exactly to the degree which is warranted by his good conduct or bad conduct, his efficiency or inefficiency in rendering loyal, able, and disinterested service to the Nation as a whole.
Therefore it is absolutely necessary that there should be full liberty to tell the truth about his acts, and this means that it is exactly necessary to blame him when he does wrong as to praise him when he does right. Any other attitude in an American citizen is both base and servile."

[asdjrocky]

36. Thank you.

[Bluenorthwest]

38. It is good to look to our history...

Teddy is talking about not just some concept of free speech, he is talking about how the citizens can best expedite the excellence of their chosen President. When he wrote those words, he had actually been the President. To this day, only 44 Americans have been. His opinion about the actual nature of the office, and how it best works for all involved have got to have some importance.
Teddy was also not a big fan of criticism as a stand alone, he had harsh words for those who might replace action with criticism or praise. He was all about the action, the doing.

[JTFrog]

37. "Any and all substantive criticism of Barack Obama and his policies is permitted....

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=5524913

Any and all substantive criticism of Barack Obama and his policies is permitted. And by "any and all substantive criticism" we mean all of it -- no issue is off limits.

Expressions of dismay, disappointment or disagreement with Barack Obama or his policies are permitted.

But insults, name-calling, or other expressions of contempt toward Barack Obama or his supporters are not welcome.

More food for thought...

[Bluenorthwest]

39. The OP is a very famous quote, from 1918. Pre DU rules

The quote is about the office of the President, from a former President. I posted a bit more of the quote, which is sort of the idea on a message board, responding to the text. As opposed to reading intention, and responding to that.
Here is a bit of what I posted up thread. It is from the same place as the OP quote, an editorial by TR. Many people know this. I wonder if knowing the full quote, you would have the same instinct, to do the rules thing? Just wondering:
"Therefore it is absolutely necessary that there should be full liberty to tell the truth about his acts, and this means that it is exactly necessary to blame him when he does wrong as to praise him when he does right. Any other attitude in an American citizen is both base and servile."

The quote demands praise just as it demands criticism. As needed. To withhold either is the same error, this is one of the points the quote and the whole editorial are making. Overall he is saying that people are required to think it all through, speak their minds and take action beyond mere chatter, be that chatter praise or condemnation. Honest, thoughtful, and respectful speech followed by action. That is what TR is talking about.
It almost sounds like good guidelines for how to follow the rules here,. At least to me it does. I think the advice for those prone to either sort of rhetoric might consider the worth of the other sort of rhetoric.
I'll also add that I have personally had much public praise and criticism. The praise is both fun and dangerous, the criticism is often very useful. The mere rhetoric of either kind is useless on every level. Useless. There is much talk of constructive criticism, I marvel that the same standard is not applied to praise, for it is also not always useful, nor constructive. That is simply how it is. In my experience anyway.

[JTFrog]

41. I'm very familiar with the quote.

I'm also very familiar with the "intention" (which omits any reference to praise) and as such, was pointing out that DU rules in no way conflict with the portion of the quote posted. Nor, for that matter, do they conflict in any way with the whole quote.

I happen to agree wholeheartedly with Pres. Roosevelt's words.

:shrug:

[Butch350]

43. Why hide behind old forgotten people quotes.

Just say what is on your mind in plain written english.

Thanx

It's that quotes from old dead people is so passe.