Realistically speaking, what could Kerry have done in 2004.

[nemo137]

IIRC, the main complaint about that election was that it depended on the outcome in Ohio, which was the scene of some massive vote suppression. My question is this - had Kerry contested the result and not conceded, what would have happened? What would have been the remedy?

The case in Florida in 2000, nakedly political as it was, was about votes that had actually been cast. Ohio 2004 was about votes not allowed to cast. What remedies exist in that case, under the law as it existed in 2004?

ETA: Changed title from "should" to "could," as that more accurately reflected my question.

[Oregone]

1. Attempted to not channel Treebeard during speeches

[nemo137]

2. Personally, I'd find an Entish-American president comforting.

But the question was more about the concession and aftermath.

I do appreciate the odd Lord of the Rings humor, though, thanks.

[apocalypsehow]

3. Just what he did after the results were announced - a gracious concession. Beforehand, during the

actual campaign, I could reel off a thousand things he could've done differently, starting with not picking John Edwards as his running mate.

[BeFree]

4. Not flip-flopped

He said he was gonna make sure every vote was counted. He didn't, and he never has.

[mth44sc]

5. Kerry's campaign went off the rails

in August. He never recovered...

[politicasista]

32. Thanks to Cahill and Shrum

and Carville and Begalla.


Thankfully, Obama didn't need them, but had some of Kerry's other people.

[Toucano]

6. Clearer message. Better running mate.

It shouldn't have been close enough for them to steal the second time.

[PBS Poll-435]

7. Learned the lessons of voter disenfranchisement in Florida 2K.

Made sure that the cold November rains/snows in Ohio didn't send people waiting 3/4/5 hours outside away from the polls. Win/Lose/Draw it doesn't matter to me.

I will forever remember the images of people waiting outside in the cold because of a total and complete lack of polling places in Urban Ohio Counties.

[nemo137]

14. Voter disenfranchisement is one of my "pet peeves"

to put it lightly. Which is why I'd like to see what people think might have been the judicial remedy if Kerry had challenged it.

[PBS Poll-435]

23. The focus should have been on precinct prep rather than a judicial remedy afterwards

You can't sue for votes that weren't cast.

[nemo137]

25. That was my question, thank you.

And, yes, this is why party is important. Barring major electoral reform, that party is the Democrats.

[blm]

8. It wasn't what ANY nominee could do. 2004 was all about what DNC never did after 2000s theft - they

never lifted a finger to rebuild party infrastructure in states like Ohio that had been collapsed for years, and never bothered to secure the election process at every level where the votes are allowed, cast and counted.

Any nominee taps into the party infrastructure that exists state by state when they become the nominee. They can't spend the next 5 months rebuilding state parties - the national party chairman is supposed to oversee that in the 4 years BEFORE election day.

[bemildred]

9. First off, he would need to want to do something. nt

[sendero]

10. The election was lost...

.. because Kerry was incapable of pointedly describing the blatant failures of the dictatorTot.

Yes,there was fraud. Until we get some kind of control over the voting process this will continue. But a serious antidote is not having a 3% margin election.

[nemo137]

18. If I saw 1 thread about vote suppression for every 3 threads about BBV, I'd be happy.

BBV is hard and risky, relatively speaking. Voter suppression is easy. I'm surprised I haven't seen more about it in the discussion about Arizona.

[depakid]

11. Bush: If you knew then what you know now would you still vote for IWR?

Kerry:

Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, v v blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.....

[KonaKane]

12. Not set a land speed record to concede, without a peep about Ohio.

I'm sorry, but he really pissed me and many others off with the way he handled this. Obviously the anger lingers.

[quinnox]

13. Kerry was the victim of the media assassination - swift boat

campaign. It was incredible, 24/7 coverage on all channels of a non-story for weeks on end.

It was almost as if it was coordinated by people, to take down Kerry. He would have won handily if it hadn't been for the Swift Boat garbage and the media's glee in recycling it all the time IMHO. And he still came awful damn close in spite of all of that.

[The_Casual_Observer]

15. Kerry was very old school genteel, like from the late 1700's,

He had NO fire in him, none, nothing.

[Sebastian Doyle]

16. The 2004 election was lost in Iowa.

When the DLC and the whore media conspired to slander the candidate who would have slaughtered the Chimp.

[bigwillq]

17. Great post.

:thumbsup:

[Bluebear]

21. You said it.

[blm]

24. the Bush machine and media would have conspired LESS than the DLC?

btw...the DLC had ZERO to do with Iowa, and I say that as a big HATER of the DLC.

Dean's numbers were slipping back in Novemebr2003 and his poor debate performances weren't helping him regain those numbers.

[blm]

26. 2004 election was lost in 2000 when McAuliffe was tapped as DNC chair and refused

to spend his 4 year term strengthening party infrastructure or securing the election process in states like Ohio where the GOP controlled every step of the process where the votes are allowed, cast and counted.

[JI7]

29. stupid, if the DLC and Whore media slaughtered a candidate in a primary in one small state

how the fuck is that candidate going to take on a GEneral election.

[PBS Poll-435]

36. The Iowa Caucuses?

Ok...


I think that if Dean had been on the uptick rather than a huge nationwide slide, he would have done much better in New Hampshire a week later...

[Sebastian Doyle]

37. And what was behind this alleged "huge nationwide slide",as you call it?

Couldn't have had anything to do with THIS rancid DLC funded, Jabba the Gibbs coordinated piece of filth ad, could it?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V1DqOwP3Xzc

[PBS Poll-435]

38. It is my opinion that negative ads have much more effect in a Primary rather than a Caucus

And here is a link to KCCI - Des Moines final poll http://www.kcci.com/politics/2768802/detail.html

[ProSense]

19. Doesn't matter

Kerry gave some rousing speeches in 2004, but some saw him as boring. Four years later, Obama, in part due to his speeches, attracted a lot of people to the party.

Boring or arousing, Kerry is getting the same love and respect that President Obama is getting now.

Sometimes I think Americans don't deserve a Democratic President.

Then again, Obama is doing a great job despite the fickle citizenry.

[noamnety]

20. He could have used the opportunity

to expose serious flaws in our voting machines and election process, and then pushed for meaningful legislation to address that. He could have used the platform when all eyes were on him to talk about where the system is corrupt. Instead, his graceful concession made him look like a gentleman but did nothing to advance real democracy. Instead he used his high visibility to lend an air of legitimacy to an illegitimate system.

[nemo137]

22. Thank you for your answer.

[politicasista]

31. Yep. Lock him in a room with no food or drink until he exposes the problem n/t

[VenusRising]

27. He could have STFU around the DLCers, especially Carville.

http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/2006/10/07/did_carville_tip_bush_off_to_k/

On page 344, Woodward describes the doings at the White House in the early morning hours of Wednesday, the day after the '04 election.

Apparently, Kerry had decided not to concede. There were 250,000 outstanding ballots in Ohio.

So Kerry decides to fight. In fact, he considers going to Ohio to camp out with his voters until there is a recount. This is the last thing the White House needs, especially after Florida 2000.

So what happened?

James Carville gets on the phone with his wife, Mary Matalin, who is at the White House with Bush.

"Carville told her he had some inside news. The Kerry campaign was going to challenge the provisional ballots in Ohio -- perhaps up to 250,000 of them. 'I don't agree with it, Carville said. I'm just telling you that's what they're talking about.'

"Matalin went to Cheney to report...You better tell the President Cheney told her."

Matalin does, advising Bush that "somebody in authority needed to get in touch with J. Kenneth Blackwell, the Republican Secretary of State in Ohio who would be in charge of any challenge to the provisional votes." An SOS goes out to Blackwell.

Duh!! Like he wouldn't tell his wife who was working for *. Stupid. Stupid. Stupid.

[defendandprotect]

44. That, too --

Also, Kerry was not the most popular in the primaries --

this was another leader given to us by TPB, IMO --

[nemo137]

28. As a follow up, what should be done next time?

[politicasista]

33. delete n/t

[defendandprotect]

46. Would help if the Democratic leadership acted like they knew something about this ...for one!

They've done nothing to improve validity of our elections --

but Hartmann was saying the other day they don't want to acknowlege it because

they fear that if Democrats get the idea that elections are dishonest, they will

no longer vote!!!!

Wow!

So -- don't acknowledge problem -- don't do anything about it -- hush hush!!

Good plan!

[politicasista]

30. According to this thread, everything. Let the rest of the party have the treats

He gets to sit in a corner. :sarcasm:

[nemo137]

34. I was actually a big Kerry fan.

I wasn't old enough to vote for him in the primaries, and was for Edwards then, but the more I learned about Kerry, the happier I was with him, and I gladly voted for him.

But, at this is an entirely emotional response, I was disappointed with how the election played out, and always wondered if there was something else he could have done, even thought I didn't know what might actually happen.

[politicasista]

35. It's ok. You could say

maybe highlighting his work on issues that affect AA and Hispanics. These minority groups along with the Asians and Native Americans are the Democratic base and their voting block. (Obama cleaned up on these groups).

The campaign should have done more to counter the early criticism that he did not reach out or did nothing for AA as a Senator from MA. Heard that it came from the Dean camp and leaked into the media, but had AA known more about the Senators record, there would not have been lukewarm resistance towards him and you would not have people saying "I am more against Bush." Plus reach out to Rue (the late actress) who did not vote or respect Kerry because of his "pheasant hunting." (they probably wrote her back).

[defendandprotect]

39. IMO, it takes more actual physical stuff to oppress the turn out than it does

to steal votes -- which can be done invisbly thru programming and over telephone lines!

When you close down 40 of 42 polling places as just happend in Arkansas and when they

keep voters on long lines in Ohio in pouring rain and had provided too few voting machines

IMO, that's actual physical blocking which is provable!


Same as the GOP-sponsored fascist rally to stop the vote counting in Miami-Dade County --

verged on violence and no police interference -- totally paid for by GOP -- and the

later Chief Justice Roberts evidently was one of the designers of that action!

[nemo137]

40. BBV is riskier, though. There's no way to cloak it in the "color of law," as the phrase goes.

It's provable, but also deniable.

[defendandprotect]

47. But . . . if "it's provable" what good does that do if it's also "deniable" . . .???

That's what I'm saying -- more actual physical proof in Ohio and Arkansas block

the vote to oppress it --

[nemo137]

48. Because vote suppression can look like things other than "can't let D's win."

You can say "have to prevent vote fraud" or "that's just how the districts are." WIth electronic voting fraud, if you get caught doing it, it's blatant, there's no way to get out of it. It's safer to voter-cage and such.

[defendandprotect]

54. No -- more commonly shutting polling places on short notice --

falsely directing people to polling areas that aren't open --

Providing too few voting machines for the area -- changing hours of the polling stations --

on and on -- and occurring in Democratic/liberal/progressive areas --

In any honest court those arguments wouldn't work ---

With computers, it's harder to get caught -- almost no paper ballots any more to hand count,

for one!

Endless alibis --

[nemo137]

55. I think I disagree about the risk assessment.

Fucking around with the act of voting is one thing, and has a long, "proud" tradition. Messing with votes actually cast is "worse," and so there's no incentive to use it if normal ratfucking can be used.

[defendandprotect]

60. It's really the same thing.... What's the difference if you steal a vote before it's cast...

or after?

It's still stealing the votes!

I would say we only saw this piling on recently of actual physical blocking of

voters/votes -- think it keeps getting more desperate for GOP as more Dems come out --

It's all "ratfucking" --


Go back to the LBJ "landslide" -- you'll see plenty of "ratfucking" going on there!

Also remember that these computers -- large and small -- began to come in during the

mid-late-1960's . . . coincidentally, just about the time America was passing the

Voting Rights Act!


Also -- LARGE computers used by MSM came in first --

Previous to that time they could only report on actual vote tallies --

Yeah -- maybe they could get a panel together to discuss likely outcomes in areas --

but that was it --

The computers gave them the equivalent of a crystal ball -- they could now PREDICT and

CALL elections!!

What we saw in 2000 was simply a reversal of that new power.

[defendandprotect]

41. dupe --

you might remember that Kerry committed himself to "fighting" if it looked like a steal.

However, it's been said that when the steal went down and they checked on what was happening

the message came back that it was just too powerful to contest.

Same message Bobby Kennedy got back re JFK assassination/coup --

[defendandprotect]

42. From what I've read on this . . .

you might remember that Kerry committed himself to "fighting" if it looked like a steal.

However, it's been said that when the steal went down and they checked on what was happening

the message came back that it was just too powerful to contest.

Same message Bobby Kennedy got back re JFK assassination/coup --

[nemo137]

43. There are steals and steals.

That's what I'm asking. Florida was votes actually cast, but a question about them being counted. In Ohio, it was votes that weren't allowed to be cast - where's the remedy for that?

[defendandprotect]

50. Yes -- IMO, oppression takes physical acts which are provable . . .

stealing cast votes can be done massively with computers --

coming out early and late confuses them a whole lot evidently cause they can't

judge how much to steal and you see they sometimes steal more votes than there are

voters!

Evidently even absentee/early voting on paper is also being counted by computer!

Nothing's safe!

An actual hand recount in Miami Dade would have answered some of that --

However, the GOP-sponsored fascist rally took care of stopping that -- with no police

interference against it!

There will be no remedy in any event -- cast or oppressed -- because Democrats are

refusing to even acknowledge the problem. Hartmann says they don't want to open up

the discussion because Democrats might get the idea that election process is corrupted

and their votes won't count -- and Democrats won't then come out to vote!!

Sounds like a great plan for failure!!

[EFerrari]

45. They could have revoted Ohio.

But no one was willing to go up against the Bush mafia.

[nemo137]

49. Are there mechanisms in place to re-do a vote if voter suppression is proven?

I don't know if there are.

[EFerrari]

51. Remember, there was a recount and Blackwell sabotaged it?

If anyone had taken the recount seriously, they would have had to revote Ohio because the recount was also filthy and Blackwell couldn't have acted more guilty.

But no one did.

/typo

[nemo137]

53. Yes, but what is there that would let them scrap the results and redo?

Was there any way out for Kerry?

[EFerrari]

57. If the recount had turned up bad, they would have had to revote.

That's why the recount was tanked and why it was barely reported. Because a real recount would have turned up bad.

[defendandprotect]

56. Blackwell should have been in jail . . . but it all just melted away somehow . . .

heard recently he was up for some prominent position?

Something about him lately -- can't really recall?

The missing ingredient in all of this is the dog that didn't bark -- the Democrats!

Silence is also a response!

[EFerrari]

58. Yes, it is. That's exactly right.

:hi:

[defendandprotect]

52. Look at how long they oppressed the AA vote in the South --

they must have learned a lot there -- now they're simply oppressing liberal/progressive vote!

Thing is as we saw in Arkansas last week -- they closed polling stations short time before

election day --

Who fought any of this?

Schultz says Dem machine was oppressing the Holder vote --

presumably along with the Repugs?

That's been said very emphatically --

[Rex]

59. Stood up for his own personal integrity, you know make a stand.

Kerry backpedaled from day one, when he could have made them all look like the total idiots the RWing is. He didn't, we lost and I have no faith in Kerry anymore.

[JDPriestly]

61. In 2008, the polls in Ohio had lots of attorneys and other volunteers

watching to make sure everyone got to vote. There was a problem in one of the precincts in a poll I was watching. I had to reassure all the voters that if they waited, they would get to vote. One of the precincts seemed to have more African-American voters than the other one. I say no more.

[XemaSab]

62. I think he should have gone on the attack more

That being said, problems with voting in 2000, 2004, and 2008 are just ridiculous.

I have NEVER had to wait more than about 15 minutes to vote, and most of the methods I have used for voting involve inking in a bubble.

We can put a man on the moon but we can't have a fair election? I don't buy that for a second.