another broken promise

[OKDem08]

Stymied by political opposition and focused on competing priorities, the Obama administration has sidelined efforts to close the Guantánamo prison, making it unlikely that President Obama will fulfill his promise to close it before his term ends in 2013. Source: New York Times


I think George Carlin had it right when he said we only have the illusion of choice.

[Frances]

1. If Obama had taken office in 2000

when we had a surplus, high standing in the world, and a low unemployment rate, then we would be right to criticize him for not closing Guantanamo by the end of his term. But he has had a few items on his plate with an opposing party determined to undermine every thing good for the country. If there is no difference between the parties why do the Repubs say NO to everything Obama and the Dems propose?

[Fire1]

2. Slam Dunk!! BINGO!! We have a winner!!!

The PROBLEM with your ever so accurate and astute observation is LOGIC!!! Shame, shame I know your name. LOL!!!

[Nuclear Unicorn]

3. The opposing party?

What about the democrat majorities?

And how hard is it to NOT do something?

This is like claiming you have to wait for congressional approval to NOT punch homeless people.

[Frances]

13. I don't think you understand how Congress works

And I don't think you understand how hard it is to educate people about what their own interests are

Have you ever worked to elect a candidate in a very conservative area?

Have you ever worked to keep a moderate candidate in a Repub dominated area in office?

Have you ever had to compromise in order to keep your job?

[Nuclear Unicorn]

17. So if a conservative dominated constituency demands...

...creationism in school this will be your response?

If the polls turn against healthcare reform, you'll cave and vote to repeal, the poor and disadvantaged be darned?

[Fire1]

26. If you are under the delusion that you can get anything

accomplished for the people in a capitalist country without "compromise" then I've got a bridge I wanna sell you. Yours is wishful thinking and shear naivety, to put it nicely. You are in the WRONG country for that kind of mindset.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

27. So you concede my point...

....that you would vote to allow creationism and repeal HCR if a conservative majority constituency demanded it.

I'm curious where the "compromise" comes in. Do we let the conservatives keep Gitmo and we stop it from being a place of illegal detention and violated rights?

How does that work?

:shrug:

[Fire1]

31. Specifics in the hypothetical? Not happening and you failed.

Compromise can be established in a myriad of ways. Of course, you KNOW THIS!! Tunnel vision is an oxymoron for compromise.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

37. The only that has been compromised are civil rights and the Constitution

That is, after all, the reason why we demanded Gitmo be closed in the first place.

Now suddenly it's not so bad after all. If politics can stop this then maybe politics was all it ever was. All the wailing and gnashing of teeth about terrorist recruiting and violations international law was a cheap publicity stunt for suckers--like me--to vote for a bunch of people who were never really sincere to begin with.

Meanwhile people who have been taken thousands of miles from their homes sit in cramped cells without trial and those who do get trials don't have a fraction of the rights a common shoplifter enjoys.

That's one helluva compromise.

[Name removed]

39. Deleted message

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[Divine Discontent]

35. I don't believe they're in the WRONG country for that mindset - great leaders of the past got things

done which match or even dwarf the issues of today. They can get things done, they just need to stop worrying what the corporate donors think.

[Frances]

42. Of course, I would not vote for creationism to replace

evolution in the schools, but then I would never be elected if I stated that fact in Alabama. And if I were elected before anyone knew where I stood on creationism and then voted against creationism in the schools on a straight up or down vote, I would be defeated in the next election.

I would probably argue that evolution should be taught as a theory since Darwin's title included the word theory in science classes. I would say that creatonism should be taught in a religion class. I would probably be defeated anyway because the majority of the people in my area would probably not want Darwin's theory even mentioned unless it was to say it was false.

[Name removed]

43. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[RC]

4. Gitmo is a military prison. The CIC can close it on his say so.

It got opened that way.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

5. Even then congress has to fund it

Congress could always stop spending money on it.

That would be a de facto closing.

[BeFree]

7. Remember the jokes?

We used to tell each other "see you in Gitmo"

Not that it was ever very funny, but now it seems to be all too likely.
Our Dems do not want Gitmo closed. Our people want it to stay open. omg.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

14. To be honest, I don't foresee Obama locking up dissidents

Even Bush didn't go that far at the height of 9/11 anxiety.

But the fact remains: Gitmo is a recruiting tool for extremists, a black-eye with the rest of the world and the president supposedly ordered it closed when he took office.

Now it's about to become an election year bludgeon (strange timing of this article). We look foolish and so weak that we can't even follow our own policies.

[BeFree]

21. You never know

That's the problem. This broken promise causes lots of doubt.

Never let down your guard, is my mo.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

23. " Never let down your guard"

Good advice...especially for a girl drinking around frat boys.

But just because Obama breaks a promise doesn't make him Kim Jung Il.

[BeFree]

25. It can't happen here?

If you were a black person and a dissident just 40 years ago, it very well could.

Now they have made progress. Now they know who, what, where, and when. Via the internet.

It must be nice to live in the mindset that there are no more bad people like Hitler.
For the rest of us, we won't let down our guard.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

28. Obama is not Hitler

No matter what LaRouchies and talk radio says.

I also reject that theory because the US military would never accept such orders from Bush, Obama or anybody else.

[BeFree]

32. ...

But the military does do 'shock and awe' on Iraqis. Right?

[Nuclear Unicorn]

33. Are you suggesting...

...the US military will be bombing Washington DC or carpet bombing US cities?

[Fire1]

12. It's not that black and white. Prisoners have to have

somewhere to go!! Sorry, but that shit is not on everybody's list of top priorities.

[William Z. Foster]

54. are you sure you want to do this?

Are you sure you want to pursue this line? Do you really think it is supporting the President or helps him? The violation of human rights is not a priority for the administration? Are you sure you want to defend that and associate the administration with this? I cannot imagine anything more damaging to the administration then what you are doing here.

"Prisoners have to have somewhere to go?" Habeas corpus. Charge them or free them. You do no politician any favors by apologizing for or defending any other action.

[Fire1]

60. I didn't say or imply that PO doesn't care about "human rights."

But I have priorities just as he does and I'm defending the priority of American citizens FIRST. Sorry if that offends you.

[William Z. Foster]

66. nor did I

I am not attacking the President, no matter how badly you may wish to imply that I am.

Human rights are universal, or they don't exist. If you are prioritizing who gets them and who does not, you are contradicting the very concept and taking a stand against human rights.

Defending the rights of any anywhere defends the rights of all everywhere. An injury to one is an injury to all. Justice denied anywhere is justice thratened everywhere.

Only those opposed to human rights and siding with power would ever think that they could be prioritized.

[Catherina]

68. Shameful. The face of the new party. Absolutely shameful.

[Balbus]

6. During his term, he's had the majority in the Senate and the House...

and he still can't get the shit done that he said he would. Pathetic.

[villager]

10. The bigger problem is why do the Democrats say "yes"

...to so much that the Republicans propose/do - even when the Dems are the putative majority?

[demtenjeep]

16. exactly

thank you

[branders seine]

47. the gift of an excuse that just keeps on giving.

at least the "but it's only been six months (or however long)" excuse seems to have gone away.

[iamthebandfanman]

76. SAME EXCUSE for ANYTHING he hasnt done

They all start to kinda add up...


They say NO because they dont stand to lose anything from it. they get their 'base' happy until we do nothing ourselves into the ground.

id really like to see all these accomplishments i keep hearing about..

preferably the ones that werent half assed and compromised into meaning nothing...

if doing things half way is an accomplishment, i know a lot of americans who deserve a medal

[TransitJohn]

81. Ah yes...I believe your post is textbook "moving the goalposts"

Or 'pragmatism', as it's now known on DLC Underground.

[Tesha]

86. And after all, he's only one man with no staff, so how can we possibly expect him to do more than...

...one thing each year or so?

Tesha

[Greyhound]

8. George Carlin was right about everything he tried to tell us.

And the richer he got, the more he tried to tell us about how things really work. Chris Rock is trying to carry on this education.

[ChimpersMcSmirkers]

9. Congress isn't providing the funds. This isn't the presidents fault.

He's tried hard to do this IMO.

[habitual]

11. a promise is a promise is a promise

everyone can come up with every excuse in the world on why he isn't able to keep the promise he made. But still, the fact is that a promise was made and the people who have had the promise made to them have every RIGHT to hold him to it. If he thought there was a chance that he couldn't fulfill the promise, he should have never made it. That's how mature people handle things, they don't go around promising things that they can't deliver on, unless they want to be known as someone who is not trustworthy.

[Fire1]

15. He can renege on that promise afa I'm concerned. It's not tops

on my list. Secondly, politicians have been promising shit since the beginning of democracy. Where in the hell have you been?? Why is POTUS suddenly held to a different or higher standard? How many presidents have had to clean up a mess of this magnitude??
Epic fuckin FAIL!!:mad:

[habitual]

22. i've been right the hell here

and yah, they all promise shit they can't deliver on.

Thanks for the big heads up there buddy! and btw, so what!!

your argument about standards is just absurd... yah, lets just accept that they all make promises that they can't keep??

let's just say it's ok to lie about things you promise you are going to do because everyone does it (makes false promises)... hhahahaa

i don't really care, and you are right, I do expect it!!! I also expect that if the pres was a repub, most of the peeps so willing to let Obama slide on this wouldn't be so gracious.

what i do find funny tho is all the people that seem to think cuz it is our side, then we should excuse it.

[Fire1]

24. You can excuse it, reject it or accept it! The fact of the matter

is, it doesn't matter what "side" is in the WH, "buddy." You're fighting a losing battle. If you elect a leader who comes anywhere CLOSE to accomplishing a FRACTION of what he/she "promised" you're on the upside! At this point in time, PO has EXCEEDED what most could POSSIBLY deliver, ESPECIALLY under these circumstances. Again, EPIC FAIL!

[Nuclear Unicorn]

29. We're supposedly talking about

human rights here. We're supposedly talking about the Constitution.

Are you willing to throw those away so long as the trains run on time?

[Fire1]

34. Oh, pish tosh!! I'M talkin REALITY here!! The "human rights"

of the people of THIS COUNTRY should be the top priority. Fuck gitmo!! The common good for the people of THIS country!! Those folks been sittin on ice for the last ten years, whats a few more?? And you can't anybody to take em!! "Not in MY backyard!!!" Constitution, you say?? Bush wiped his ass with that, YEARS AGO!!! THIS man is bringing back whatever resemblance is left of that document! Fuck gitmo!!!!

[Nuclear Unicorn]

38. So if a republican wipes his ass you're OK if a democrat

flushes the toilet.

got it

[Fire1]

40. Next time you attempt to read, try it with COMPREHENSION!! n/t

[Nuclear Unicorn]

45. All caps

they make everything more meaningful.

I comprehend quite well that we were told one thing. There was an Executive Order. The president's party holds a majority in both houses and you can't be bothered to trouble yourself with such mundane affairs like basic human rights.

Remind me again why Bush the Younger is considered to be a bad guy.

[Fire1]

63. And you apparently couldn't care less about the human rights

of your own countrymen.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

69. That's not even a cogent thought, you're just spouting

There's nothing stopping this congress or the president from closing Gitmo. All they have to do is de-fund it.

[William Z. Foster]

71. amazing isn't it?

"Opposing human rights violations is supporting human rights violations." This is the sort of self-contradictory logic that hyper-partisanship is leading people into making.

[Fire1]

78. And put them WHERE? House them WHERE?? And have

congress argue about that for the next eight months??? No thank you!

[Tesha]

87. Actually, I believe Nuclear Unicorn understood perfectly well what you're trying to say.

That is: The Constitution only matters in as far as it affects you.

Tesha

[habitual]

48. comparison is not the measure of honesty, but nice try

your argument so silly and yet you say I am fighting a losing battle, too funny!

And an EPIC FAIL is someone who tries to justify someone breaking a promise by saying: "it's ok, everyone else does it and by comparison, O has done so many good things."

do you get that I can still speak out about the concrete things that he has promised and seemingly will not be able to deliver on?????

btw, your use terms like 'fighting a losing battle' and 'epic fail' seem to simply be substitutes for substantive arguments -- especially since you provide NO evidence of either, just cheap words.

[Fire1]

58. I don't waste my time arguing with persons who really have

"no substantive argument," other than what exists in their own convoluted mind filled with righteous indignation.

[habitual]

64. nice substantive response there!!! thanks for proving my point! n/t

[AnArmyVeteran]

82. He didn't even try to push the public option, not at all!

For a half a year Obama sat on his hands and let the tea baggers outsmart him. Obama let the ignorant and illiterate tea baggers seize control of the national dialogue and President Obama did nothing to stop it. He could have made weekly speeches condemning the blatant lies being told, but he did nothing. And then the compromising began, giving away almost everything in the health reform bill to the corrupt right wing KNOWING the republicans would not support any form of health care reform. And if President Obama DIDN'T KNOW republicans were going to vote against it then he was the only person in the country who didn't know.

President Obama had better wake up and wake up SOON. He needs to tell democratic members of congress not to concede ANYTHING. And if republicans threaten to filibuster then FORCE them to do it. Make them stand and speak 24 hours a day for a week or a month in a row. WHY IN THE HELL isn't the democratic leadership LEADING? I am getting sick and tired of compromise, giving-in and retreating.

I don't get it. Under Bush democrats caved and voted for his war, knowing it was insane to think that Iraq could attack the US "within 45 minutes in the form of a mushroom cloud". If they didn't know that was a blatant lie then they should not have been in office. Hell, they shouldn't even be employed anywhere because any damned fool knew Iraq had NO capacity to attack the US? How were they going to do it? They had no navy. They had no real air force. And their missile system only had a range of 500 miles with pitiful accuracy. How was Iraq going to attack the US? Swim across the Mediterranean Sea and the Atlantic Ocean laden with weapons all over their bodies? Good grief, how could democrats fall for that idiotic crap? And not one democrat called all the people in the Bush Regime LIARS for making those ridiculous claims.

If Bush could cram through all of the horrible bills through congress with less of a majority than the democrats have why can't President Obama and the democrats in congress do something? Are there ANY leaders in Washington who have guts to stand up to the republicans and condemn them for what they are? The democrats have been given so many gifts they could exploit, the last being Rep Barton's apology to BP. One hundred house republicans united in virtual support of BP. But will the democrats capitalize off of republican blunders for the past nine years? Sometimes I even wonder if they even want to represent the people who worked their asses off to get them into office.

[L0oniX]

18. Don't hold your breath on the pull out from Iraq either.

[treestar]

19. I thought congress would not give him the $$ to close it?

Because of concern about the prisoners still there?

:wtf:

[IOKIYAL]

20. "Stymied by political opposition and focused on competing priorities"

that should be your first clue that this wasn't some routine broken promise. It wasn't some promise to get you to vote for him and you saw with your own two eyes what happened when he tried to fulfill that promise.

Do you have a problem with the competing priorities or do you think the American people are demanding that he closed Guantanamo?

So that's what 20 promises broken - although it wasn't- out of the 400-500 he made? Have you been to politifact.com lately?

[asdjrocky]

30. Gotta give this a mighty HELL YEAH!

[mzmolly]

36. .

:eyes:

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

41. "Being president is hard work." As his predecessor said.

A rationale not excused then.

[William Z. Foster]

44. this is controversial?

Have we sunk that low?

It makes me a little ill to see people placing partisan political concerns above closing Guantánamo prison - that they are making up excuses and rationalizations for those in power and attacking people for taking a stand on this.

[ZombieHorde]

46. I completely agree. I don't even know what to say. nt

[tekisui]

49. Party power over policy.

We've been heading that way for a while. What is frustrating is that being strong on policy, sticking to your guns, increases political power.


We sacrifice both.

[G_j]

57. yes we have sunk that low

:cry:

[Name removed]

50. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

52. FWIW

I've been pretty consistent about holding congress accountable, both over Gitmo and war funding.

I do believe the democrats in congress are betraying their president but the president could do more to whip them into doing the right thing.

And believe me the last thing I want is a GOP congress. That would only make things worse.

[AtomicKitten]

56. Cheers. nt

[treestar]

67. "Whip" them - that sounds easy

The President may have tried it. Maybe he has a cat of nine tails. Maybe he should just use waterboarding. :sarcasm:

If only he could physically force them to vote his way! Or if only the Bully Pulpit really were a magic wand.

The filibuster allows one stubborn Senator to hold things up if he wants to. The Senate preserves their individual right to debate over getting things done. And if we changed that, it could come back to haunt us when Rs are in power.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

73. The bully pulpit must have SOME magic

I'm told so many of my democratic congresspersons where simply mesmerized into believing Iraq had WMD that they voted to allow Bush--of all people--to lead us into a second war.

Did somebody forget to recharge the bully pulpit magic batteries?

[tekisui]

84. You're right, we should roll over at every turn.

All I hear are more excuses. Obama must be one of the most powerless presidents.

[William Z. Foster]

53. haters?

People opposing torture, rendition and detainment are "haters?"

People are not against the President. This is not about the President. Nor would criticism from the left ever bring a Democratic president down, nor would it ever hurt the Democratic party. It is the source of strength for the party, the only source.

No one here is "campaigning to give the GOP the reins of government" and that is a hostile and malicious smear of many good people.

[AtomicKitten]

55. Just keep banging away at this president. Facts temper your outrage so you ignore them.

The alternative is clear: GOP rule. Don't believe me? Try running your pure, more worthy hero candidates and see what happens. Any person with a half a brain cell can discern the reality of this; no worries, your self-righteous posturing will be applauded by the choir because they can't see 5 ft in front of them.

I am fucking sick of reading skewed and flat-out false claims posted to fuel the outrage. I refuse to turn this government over to the GOP again and I will stand in stark opposition to those here who don't give a shit about the repercussions of their campaign of self-righteous horseshit.

[HughMoran]

61. Good post.

[William Z. Foster]

70. not so

What you are advocating here contradicts the approach by every successful social justice movement in history.

The Abolitionists, Suffragettes, Labor organizers, and Civil Rights movement all were confronted with the argument you are using here. They ignored that argument, or they would have not been successful.

[OregonBlue]

59. I agree, this is not on Obama, it's on a cowardly congress.

[AtomicKitten]

62. Cheers. nt

[treestar]

65. Yes, Obama kept his promise, which was to support it

Congress is a separate power.

[habitual]

74. actually...

http://promises.nationaljournal.com/defense/close-guantanamo-bay-detention-center/

[Hekate]

75. Ha! go for it, Kitten!

:thumbsup:

[scentopine]

77. LOL! Haters! What next? Asking for our papers? This is one of the funnier posts. Well done.

Every time you call someone an Obama hater because many (several million or more) of us are unrepresented and angry about it, you challenge more people to sit out the next election. Is that what you want? I think you are doing more to help republicans than your so called "haters".

If Obama wanted gitmo closed, he'd find a way to do it, just like health reform. On the other hand, Thanks to health reform, my insurance premiums are going up again 15 to 20% and I am now at risk for being priced out of market - not rich enough to afford it, not poor enough for subsidy. The gulf is a global disaster after "drill baby drill" (although I think "drill, baby, drill" is known by a more verbose description in current admin), jobs are hemorrhaging to India and China, and a stimulus built around tax credits and wall street trickle-down is coming to an end. AT&T et al are very close to turning the internet into something resembling cable television and Wall Street is rolling in cash, and Fortune 500 is more empowered to control legislation than anytime in US history.

And you are yelling at us, telling us to shut the fuck up and calling us traitors?

You think you are purifying the party by attacking us, but really you are shrill and sound panicy and defensive. This means you are very, very worried. That's good. You should be.

Obama and democrats made choices to exclude a large swath of liberals from representation. Meanwhile, you expect us to vote for you at the polls. So you piss on us, and call us traitors, censor us, report us to the authorities, demand to see our papers, deports us, you build complex rules and firewalls to lock out the dissent.

Until democrats stop voting for republican policies - you will have to deal with the anger of a relevant minority who feels betrayed.

http://thatsmycongress.com/index.php/2010/06/21/should-big-oil-corporations-pay-their-income-taxes-61-senators-vote-no/

http://irregulartimes.com/index.php/archives/2010/06/21/21-senate-dems-no-oil-company-income-tax/

---- snip ----

The 21 Senate Democrats Who Voted to Keep Oil Companies from Paying Income Tax
posted 21st June 2010 in Democrats, Economy, Legislation, Politics, Republicans by Jim

Did you know that despite its record profits, Exxon Mobil didn’t actually pay any federal income tax last year?

Did you know that Vermont Senator Bernard Sanders introduced a legislative amendment that would have closed tax loopholes for big oil corporations like Exxon Mobil, required oil giants to pay income taxes like the American people do, dedicated $10 billion of the proceeds to retrofitting public structures for energy efficiency and dedicated a further $25 billion to deficit reduction?

Did you know that not one Senate Republican voted for Sanders’ amendment? Well, that goes without saying. But did you know that 21 Senate Democrats the Senate Republicans to vote down Sanders’ amendment?

The following are the 21 Senate Democrats who voted to keep the big oil corporations from paying income tax:

Daniel Akaka (HI)
Max Baucus (MT)
Evan Bayh (IN)
Mark Begich (AK)
Michael Bennet (CO)
Jeff Bingaman (NM)
Kent Conrad (ND)
Christopher Dodd (CT)
Byron Dorgan (ND)
Kay Hagan (NC)
Daniel Inouye (HI)
John Kerry (MA)
Mary Landrieu (LA)
Blanche Lincoln (AR)
Ben Nelson (NE)
Mark Pryor (AR)
Jon Tester (MT)
Mark Udall (CO)
Tom Udall (NM)
Mark Warner (VA)
James Webb (VA)

[SeattleGirl]

83. What?

"And you are yelling at us, telling us to shut the fuck up and calling us traitors?"

Where did she tell you to shut the fuck up?

Where did she call you traitor?

Very disingenuous of you to say things like that. Stick to what she actually SAID, instead of injecting your own biases into it.

[quaker bill]

51. Is "GITMO" truly open anymore?

I would argue that the base in Guantanamo Bay is a place, and "GITMO" both an idea and a place, but more an idea than a place. As far as I can tell, the same stuff was being done at Baghram and elsewhere apparently in "black sites" all around the planet.

"GITMO" has stood as a symbol for the war crimes committed therein and elsewhere, apparently in dozens of places. If the war crimes have stopped, is "GITMO" truly still open? The military prison in Guantanamo Bay is apparently still open, but to my mind, as the war crimes have stopped, "GITMO" appears to be closed.

I am less concerned with the place the remaining few "enemy combattants" are being held, than I am that the torture and war crimes cease. I do not think holding them here in our civilian prison system would result in better treatment, and could in fact put them at far greater risk of harm.

We have plenty of choice, an administration that builds the places, and then authorizes the war crimes, and one that doesn't. You may call this an illusion, but I call it awakening from an eight year nightmare.

[johnnie]

72. I'd like to welcome many of you...

...to politics. Sometimes I wonder if many of you ever paid attention before georgie took office.

[Zhade]

79. He certainly is racking them up, isn't he?

Not what I voted for.

[johnaries]

80. He tried. Congress blocked him. Blame Congress, not Obama. nt

[pecwae]

85. Recced