Will you watch a Mel Gibson movie again?

[Luminous Animal]

Informally, who here would ever watch a Mel Gibson movie again. Personally, outside of "The Year of Living Dangerously", I've not been a fan. I have, though, been a casual observer... that is, I've watched at home when other people have watched. After his anti-Jew outburst a few years ago, I gave up the notion of any kind of casual viewing so he's been, essentially off of my radar. Now I think he should be actively shunned.

[Ozymanithrax]

1. I havn't watched Mel Gisbson since he proved himself to be an anti-semitic asshole...

And I don't keep it a secret.

So showing he abuses women won't change anything for me.

[unhappycamper]

80. I'll second that Ozy.

I really don't like assholes.

[Luminous Animal]

90. Meeeeeeeeee, either. Who knew that a bigot hack actor would garner so much sympathy.

[NotThisTime]

169. Third that....

[Kitty Herder]

199. Same here and now I have even more reason to avoid watching that asshole. nt

[montanto]

206. Same here.

[gateley]

2. No - caught one on cable the other day, Ransom, and it was just hard for me

to get what I know about him now out of my head while watching. Kind of a bummer because he's a good actor.

[Dank Nugs]

3. Hell no. He's a piece of shit, deadbeat father who can't even pay child support. Fuck him.nt

[SunnySong]

4. Seperate the art from the artist... for example Barbara Stristand is a good liberal.

But lets be honest Yentl was a cry for help and The Prince of Tides was a crime against humanity.


David Zucker may be a right wing hack but Airplane is one of the greatest film comedies ever made.

[Name removed]

6. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[SunnySong]

9. You miss read me actually I wouldn't watch her if her next movie had James Brolin and a chainsaw.

My point is the opposite. I separate the artist from the art.

Not everything is about politics or part of some culture war.

[jobycom]

12. That word isn't an insult. It's an assault.

You should be kicked off the board for using it.

[Luminous Animal]

15. Really? Mel Gibson used it and there are several DUers who would have no problem

supporting his career. And yes, I agree that it is an assault. What I find so remarkable is that many DUers are willing to support, financially, a person who would perpetrate this kind of assault.

[jobycom]

159. I didn't comment on Gibson's use of the word. Just the poster's. nt

[DimplesinMI]

41. Agree and Reported............

That word should NEVER be used. Says alot about the poster, IMHO :mad:

[Luminous Animal]

46. Exactly. That is my point. Mel Gibson used it and according to the poll it is A-OK.

[Goblinmonger]

156. How does the poll say what Gibson said is OK?

The poll says that people are willing to look differently at the art and the artist. There are lots of people that I really don't like as people who's art I will consume because it is good. Should I stop listening to Elton John just because he played at Rush's wedding (not that I like his music anyway, but why would his politics influence the impact his music has on me?). Beethoven was a prick, but I love his music. Should I shun him because of who he was? I disagree with Scorsese's religious views greatly; should I not enjoy Raging Bull?

It just makes no sense to me. If I have to find an artist that agrees with me about everything, I would posit that I would never be able to watch TV, listen to music, read a book, or see a movie again. It's just silly.

And for the record. I think Mel Gibson is a racist, woman-hating asshole. But Mad Max is a good movie.

[jobycom]

164. You used it. So no one should ever read your posts again.

That's what you're saying.

[cbdo2007]

150. You compare someone being a liberal with someone beating up their girlfriend and using racial terms?

That is very odd. It must be easy to separate the art from the artist when you have such a loose definition of practically everything.

[SunnySong]

179. I still listen to John Lennon despite the fact he was a wife beater and bragged about it in songs.

I could point out he used the N word in songs as well but that seems like more of a cheap shot.

[MilesColtrane]

171. Wagner....huge anti-semite

Picasso and Miles Davis battered women.

Not that Mel Gibson should even remotely be mentioned in the same breath as these guys, but it is possible, for me at least, to appreciate the art, even if you detest the person.

[whathehell]

212. Most people refer to acting as a "craft" rather than an art.

I used to like Mel, but I could NEVER forget what I've heard on the latest tape...The horrible abuse...apparently mental AND physical that he's made this woman suffer.

This crazy piece of shit has now admitted hitting the girlfriend twice in the face while she was holding his child.

You can hear him on tape going ABSOLUTELY apeshit and threatening to kill her.

He says her he's been so nice to her, her indebtedness to him is so great that she should "just smile and blow me" :wow:

She tells him he's "unstable" and "needs medication". This REALLY drives him nuts..um..nutier..and He tells her she needs a "bat on the side of her head".

Helluva guy ..Stay tuned.

[Luminous Animal]

5. I am interested about those who would watch his movies again and feel...

that they can separate the artist from the asshole.

Do you feel any regret about contributing to the millionaire lifestyle of a person that hates African Americans, women, and Jews? For the past 20 years, I've lived next door to a very famous underground cartoonist who is a total asshole, and I and most of our neighbors have had no problem barring him from our personal lives, even though he's tried to reach out now and again. He's even tried to reach out to us through our children with small charming gifts, only to be dubbed "Ass Clay" (a play on his name) by my daughter when she was 7 years old. He once gave me original artwork that would now be worth several thousands of dollars but I gave it back. His bigotry towards women, minorities, and queers was too odious to keep it in my house... to odious to capitalize on.

[Forkboy]

7. I listen to the black metal artist Burzum, who did time for murder and burning down churches..

Mel is child's play in comparison. The key is to not give them any financial support (I download Burzum's stuff, for instance, and would never give him money directly for merchandise, be it shirts, cds, etc). I'd watch a Gibson movie for free if it intrigued me enough (I wouldn't have paid to see him long before his personal views were made public).

[Luminous Animal]

11. i'm not familiar with the artist. Do you think he is capable of murdering

and burning again? Because, if so, I cannot support your choice.

[Forkboy]

18. After watching him in a documentary from his prison, I think he's more than capable.

I don't think he'd do it again, as his 17 years in prison probably wasn't overly fun and I doubt he'd want to go back. But yeah, I think he's capable. His views don't seem to have softened. He's intelligent, articulate, and crazy as a bed bug.

And that's ok, you don't have to support my choice. If you ever visit I'll play something halfway normal for you. ;)

[SunnySong]

10. Would you listen to an artist who beat his wife then wrote a song about it?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ab4I1MAaK-c

[Luminous Animal]

14. Haha! Good one. I'm 52 years old. That song disgusted me when I was young

and frightened me. Fortunately, I had a mother that could explain why I was frightened and I've never been a fan.

[SunnySong]

13. "a very famous underground cartoonist who is a total asshole"

Honestly you may have to narrow that down. I am racking my brains trying to think of one that wasn't.

[Luminous Animal]

19. Truly. The most infamous have hung out in our communal back yard and they've all been assholes.

The only clue I can give you is Ass Clay.

[mitchum]

21. S Clay Wilson

[Luminous Animal]

23. Bingo.

When my daughter, at age 7, came up with his nickname, all us adults were in awe. Out of the mouths of babes.

[LostinVA]

115. You forgot gays

[Luminous Animal]

8. Come on those 4 voters for separating the artist from th art. Step up and give your reasons why.

[mitchum]

25. Because I enjoy the work of Pound, Eliot, Celine, Miles Davis, Lou Reed...

and other world class pricks.
It doesn't mean I would have had them over to dinner.

[Luminous Animal]

28. Hatred of women, gays, blacks, Jews, and a host of others expressed loudly and proudly.

The most vile, bigoted crap. That is precisely why my daughter dubbed him Ass Clay. We have plenty of cranky, cynical pricks in our lives. We only have had one unrelenting misogynist homophobic bigot to with which to contend.

[Madam Mossfern]

110. I know how you feel

I enjoy them too, but there is always an uncomfortable feeling when I enjoy their art. I recently used an Eliot quote in a speech, because it was beautiful and fitting. I was so uncomfortable with it though that I had to share that with a friend who had no idea about Eliot, the person. She comforted me by agreeing that it was indeed beautiful....no matter. Sometimes I wish I didn't know about these things.

It is quite difficult to separate the jerk from the work.

Is it because in many instances we consider these people to be truth tellers? And when they display bigotry we feel that we are compelled to listen to that because they tell the truth about other things so eloquently? There is a lot going on here that speak to human nature and ideals and reality.

[Goblinmonger]

158. The Hollow Men is just fucking fantastic

That poem should haunt us all for every day we draw breath. But, yes, T.S. Eliot was a first-class asshole. Plus I find it hard to forgive him for writing the horrible poetry that became the musical Cats. But Hollow Men, Prufrock, and Wasteland are works of sheer genius that speak to the human condition like very few others. To dismiss the art because the artist was a prick is just silly.

[pipi_k]

149. I have a question...

Let me ask a question in return...

Are there artists, actors, musicians, etc., who lead exemplary lives whose Art you do NOT like?


Do you automatically like someone's Art just because s/he is a "good person"? Or are you able to separate the person from the Art and like or dislike it based on the Art alone?

[SunnySong]

195. Barbara Streisand Movie Director. nt

[Miss Marmelstein]

207. If you are going to repeatedly attack a person.....

spell their freaking name correctly!

It's Barbra Streisand....got it now?

[SunnySong]

208. I am only halfway attacking her

I like her singing...


I sometimes like her acting...


but behind the camera... yikes.

[demosincebirth]

16. Hey, I like Mel Gibson.

[A-Schwarzenegger]

17. I prefer to google authors, directors, actors, painters & musicians

to determine their views on important issues
before I read or see or listen to their stuff.

[Luminous Animal]

20. Personally, authors, painters, & musicians impart a message that reflects

their views and I can make my own value judgments. Generally, not so much with actors or directors. But if either clearly makes their hatred and bigotry known, I can make an informed decision as to whether or not they deserve my hard earned dollars.

[A-Schwarzenegger]

27. Yes, they do personally impart a message that

sometimes reflects their views & feelings & sometimes doesn't,
which leads me to prefer to google them to make sure
their songs & paintings & stories aren't trying to deceive me
into thinking they think things they don't. Actors &
directors often try to delude me into thinking they believe
things they don't, too, or prresent contradictory stuff,
so they are just as bad, possibly. In my view, you can't fully
trust any of them to not be liberal, and for that reason I rarely
subject myself or my wallet to "art" of any variety. I think
that's the most principled & secure thing to do.

[Luminous Animal]

29. I hope you are content with your googly googly.

[A-Schwarzenegger]

32. Yes, thank you, for I like to think

that one of the main ends of a successful life
is to be content that I am not letting in "artistic
expression" from people whose prejudices are antithetical
to my own.

[Luminous Animal]

39. Indeed. Rush Limbaugh has made quite a good living for himself claiming that...

he's only an entertainer. Let us embrace the entertainer for solely for fact that he/she entertains. He is an artiste!

[apocalypsehow]

36. That's sad. You do know that Shakespeare was a stone-cold Reactionary, don't you?

:shrug:

[A-Schwarzenegger]

37. I'll be sure to read him more carefully

than you read me. :*

[apocalypsehow]

40. Touche - sincerely.

:toast:

[A-Schwarzenegger]

42. ...

:hi:

[Luminous Animal]

43. There is nothing about Shakespeare that makes you wince?

That makes you uncomfortable?

If Shakespeare were a modern playwright, I'd reject him outright. He's only worth studying for his influence on western narrative. And really, that is not saying much for western narrative.

[A-Schwarzenegger]

45. He'll certainly never get another dime of my hard earned money.

[Luminous Animal]

47. True that. Of course, your respsonse has little to do with my post but I

wouldn't expect anything more.

[apocalypsehow]

49. It has *everything* to do with your post, & your laughable interpretation of what constitutes "art"

You're just not equipped to realize it, for whatever reasons.

[Luminous Animal]

56. I've not once attempted to define art. Show me where I have.

[apocalypsehow]

59. You are surely capable, at the very least, of reading your *own* replies in this thread?

:shrug:

Surely, at least.... :eyes:

[Luminous Animal]

62. Surely you are capable of showing where I have attempted to define art.

[apocalypsehow]

64. Surely you are capable of reading your own OP, and your subsequent replies?

:shrug:

Give it a try, before you ask for help. :thumbsup:

[Luminous Animal]

67. Reread. Nope. Not once defined art. I didn't even come close to defining art.

[apocalypsehow]

71. Reread. Yep. Littered the thread with definitions of "art" - over & over. With rendered judgments.

Please try again.

[Luminous Animal]

74. Yet, still no examples. Only baseless accusations. Show me where I have defined art.

[apocalypsehow]

76. The examples are littered throughout this thread. Now you're just spamming - and willfully ignoring

your own repeated replies in your own OP.

Pitiful.

[Luminous Animal]

78. Your inability to prove that I a have attempted to define art is reveals you've got nothing.

You made the accusation, it is up to prove it.

[apocalypsehow]

79. Your inability to read your own OP, and the replies you've posted in it, reveals I've got something.

You just don't like it. Sorry about that. :cry:

[Luminous Animal]

81. Funny. No mention of art whatsoever in my OP. And nothing in any of my replies defining art.

[apocalypsehow]

83. Funny - every one of your replies, more or less, has mentioned your definition of what is "art," or

what merits artistic consideration.

But keep digging....

[Luminous Animal]

85. And yet, you can't offer up any examples where I've defined art. One accusation after another....

with zero proof.

[apocalypsehow]

86. And yet, I can: anyone reading through this OP & it's replies can see your "definitions" of art.

The thing speaks for itself, as the Romans said - something I'd urge you to investigate, being that they're your own posts. :thumbsup:

[Luminous Animal]

88. Quote me. Quote my definitions of art.... you can't because I haven't. I can do this all night!

[apocalypsehow]

91. I can do it "all night," too - and into the day. Cuz all I got to do is encourage folks to read the

thread - and your numerous replies that "define" art as being anything you like, and which confirms your current sensibilities, while at the same time ranting against every work of art you don't like in hateful terms.

[apocalypsehow]

113. #103: "Besides that,"....

And there we are: you admitting you've been attempting to "define art."

[A-Schwarzenegger]

54. Something about your response made me wince;

therefore, you will not receive another dime from me,
no matter how impeccable your parody of a liberal art
critic may be.

[apocalypsehow]

48. "If Shakespeare were a modern playwright, I'd reject him outright"

Then we have nothing more to discuss. You see art as dreary, relentless propaganda, ever-serving the needs of the present-day; I see it as timeless, describing universal human yearnings and feelings regardless of era.

[Codeine]

50. The silliest part

is that every one of them loves some bit of art produced by a homophobe, or a reactionary, or a racist, or a sexist, or whatever -- they just don't know it.

Picasso was a sexist fucking dick, but his quick scribble of Don Quixote and Sancho Panza is one of my favorite bits of 20th illustrative art, bar none.

Morrissey made a few dipshit statements bordering on racism back in the day, but I own every bit of music he's ever made with and without The Smiths.

Death in June has been accused of everything from Nazism to Satanism, but I've spent several thousand bucks on their material over the years.

Examples abound. Art transcends its creator. Always has and always will.

[Luminous Animal]

53. With Gibson, I do know it. If I find out that my local grocer is a member of the KKK...

I have the opportunity to express my disapproval by withholding funds that contribute to his/her prosperity.

[apocalypsehow]

57. People who rant against art in general and artists in particular remind me of something....

:nopity:

[Luminous Animal]

61. Show me where I have RANTED against art or artists in general.

Show me where I have RANTED.

RANT:

1. or extravagant speech or writing.
2. A speech or piece of writing that incites anger or violence

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/rant

[apocalypsehow]

66. Surely you are capable of reading your own OP, and your subsequent replies?

:shrug:

Give it a try, before you ask for help. :thumbsup:

Teams of helpers will be standing by, I promise, in case you're not able to manage it! :beer:

[Luminous Animal]

70. Bring on the teams.

[apocalypsehow]

73. Bring on some reflective reading comprehension. n/t.

[apocalypsehow]

55. Spot-on, and exactly right. They really should institute an "recommend post" option around here. n/t

[Codeine]

204. Awww!

You're too kind. :hi:

[Luminous Animal]

58. MEL GIBSON IS AN ARTIST. LEAVE MEL GIBSON ALONE.

Only parroting your ridiculous confluence of Mel Gibson and art.

[apocalypsehow]

63. There is quite a bit that's ridiculous that has been posted here. The vast majority of it has come

from a source that is readily available to you, as the author. A bit of introspection might well be in order at this point.

[Codeine]

197. I made it clear in another post

that Mel Gibson makes shit films. My post was in response to the larger discussion of art vs. artists.

[Forkboy]

174. Death In June is excellent.

They slipped under my radar until just the last few years. I heard the one man band Leviathan do a cover of a DIJ song so I figured I'd check them out. The great thing about music is that no matter how much I listen to there's always something new to discover, whether it's a new band or an existing one that I just haven't heard of yet.

[Codeine]

203. Check out one of their companion bands -- Current 93.

Very different, but some of the most amazing stuff I've ever heard. My favorite band since 1989 or so.

[Luminous Animal]

51. Actually, no I do not. But I don't see art as a consistent bias against women and

more nuanced reflection of the dominant gender (male) experience. I'd expect modern art to address the complexities of the modern experience and not to reinforce stereotypes at every turn. "Diva" comes to mind. "The Crying Game" comes to mind. "Angels in America" comes to mind. "I Heard the Mermaids Singing" comes to mind... "Mute Witness", "Two for the Road", "Fargo", "Orlando", "The Secret of Roan Inish", "A Secret Garden" (the modern version), "Wise Blood"...

I've got a host of them that are more relevant than Shakespeare to describe modern life.

[apocalypsehow]

52. Actually, yes you do.

You're just not equipped to realize it, for whatever reasons.

[Goblinmonger]

160. I think that is just silly.

I could give two shits if Jeffrey Eugenides is a good guy or not, but Middlesex is one of the best novels I have ever read. It moved me to tears and laughter throughout. Why should I deprive myself of that experience because the author may be a dink? I don't know if Eugenides is or isn't, btw. Just an example of one of my favorite books. Or Jose Saramago. Don't know two shits about him other than his awards. But Blindness blew me away. Albert Camus? Don't know anything about him but The Stranger always kicks my ass when I read it.

I think you are letting things unimportant to the impact of art deprive you of truly great things.

[A-Schwarzenegger]

183. There is way too much irony in the books & lives

of both Eugenides & Camus. Irony is dangerous
& immoral, and if I am unable to avoid it entirely through
pre-googling, then I try to at least go into deep denial
when I find myself inadvertently reading it.
:*

[Goblinmonger]

161. Dupe n/t

[EFerrari]

22. He's too annoying. I couldn't handle it.

:)

[McCamy Taylor]

24. Is this about Helen Thomas? Actors' political opinions do not mean shit.

Not if they are Mel Gibson. Not if they are Susan Sarandon. Watch South Park "Imagination Land".

[Luminous Animal]

26. So expressing hatred of Jews, blacks, and women are political opinions?

[LostinVA]

130. Please mention gays, too, when you say this

[Luminous Animal]

143. I did earlier but I wasn't sure that Gibson expressed hatred for gays, as well.

So, I was unwilling to repeat it. Next time I mention his odiousness I'll do some research to prior to substantiate any and all accusations against him.

[regnaD kciN]

30. OTHER -- I haven't watched a Mad Mel movie since "Braveheart"...

...in which the level of homophobia was utterly nauseating.

[Luminous Animal]

34. Apparently, to some DUers, homophobia is merely a politcal opinion.

And even though, those opinions may have an impact on us as citizens, we must disassociate our consumer selves from our citizen selves.

[Codeine]

31. Great art can be made by great assholes.

Some of the music I like is made by people who have views that seem to edge into ugly areas sometimes, but the music is still darkly gorgeous and often psychologically harrowing enough that I can discount the idiotic tendencies of the artists.

Mel Gibson's films tend to suck, however.

[apocalypsehow]

38. Well said - both Wagner *AND* Axle Rose come to mind.

:thumbsup:

[Number23]

33. Hell no. If he were a smart man, he'd give up movies altogether

and go sit somewhere until his sanity returns.

[apocalypsehow]

35. Option #4: if I had to censor the beautiful works of artistic endeavor depending on the assholey

nature of the artist, there is quite a bit in the literary, cinematic, musical, theatric, and visual arts world that I would've missed out on.

Starting with Virgil...

[eShirl]

44. I will never PAY to watch a Mel Gibson movie again.

Neither am I anxious to see any of his movies for free.

[HEyHEY]

60. Is he now officially more of a bastard than Bing Crosby? I don't know how the gauge works

[Luminous Animal]

65. I'm not a fan of him, either. Was he a racist, misogynist anti-semite bigot?

Maybe I have bigot radar.

[HEyHEY]

68. And used to be the shit out his kids.

Oddly though he was also pro-marijuanna

[Luminous Animal]

84. There are a lot of priests who used to be respected by their communites...

and a lot of covering up going on. Without a doubt the rich and powerful get away with abusing their children. Who was going to call social services on Bing Crosby?

[apocalypsehow]

69. Actually, you have artistic blindness. An acute syndrome that afflicts many Right, Left, &...

...well, mainly ideologues wedded to the present. Without the slightest appreciation of/or nuanced understanding of art.

Please try again.

[Luminous Animal]

72. Artistic blindness because I am not a fan of Bing Crosby? Am I the only one who is not a fan?

[apocalypsehow]

75. The poster who dismisses Shakespeare now wants to mewl about Bing Crosby. Laughable stuff.

Please try again.

[Luminous Animal]

77. I did not dismiss Shakespeare. But thanks for playing.

[apocalypsehow]

82. Yes, you did: #43, above - "If Shakespeare were a modern playwright, I'd reject him outright. He's

only worth studying for his influence on western narrative. And really, that is not saying much for western narrative."

Please try again, indeed.

[Luminous Animal]

87. Thank you for quoting me, "He's only worth studying (etc.)" Certainly I am not dismissing him.

Dismissing him would be stating that I thought he was not worth studying at all.

Please try again, indeed.

[apocalypsehow]

93. Cute quote-mining from your own words. But everyone can see the full quote, and that's that. Sad.

Please try again.

[apocalypsehow]

96. "If Shakespeare were a modern playwright, I'd reject him outright."

[HEyHEY]

92. So shit-kickin' kids is an art form?

[apocalypsehow]

94. Shit-kickin' folks who diss Shakespeare and wouldn't know art if it tweaked their noses is quite

satisfying - about like scarfing down donut-holes in Vancouver. :thumbsup:

[HEyHEY]

99. Don't scarf too much, you don't know what's in them.

[Luminous Animal]

100. Ah, now I get it . Because I critisize Shakespseare, you supose that I am defining art.

And yet, I've not once said that Shakespeare in not an artist. What? Is Shakespeare your karaoke buddy?

I will, though, assert that Mel Gibson is a hack artist.

[apocalypsehow]

102. And the goalposts move again. First you said you weren't "dissing" him, but #43 kinda precludes that

explanation. Now it's just "I've not once said that Shakespeare in not an artist"


Reply #43: "If Shakespeare were a modern playwright, I'd reject him outright"

:eyes:

[Luminous Animal]

108. What do you think of Thomas Kinkade? I am capable of rejecting an artist on my terms.

Do you assert that we all respect and admire an artist simply because they are (or say they are) an artist?

[apocalypsehow]

114. Now Thomas Kinkade and William Shakespeare are artistic equivalents, eh? Sad.

:thumbsdown:

[Luminous Animal]

129. Are you tring to define what is art?

And did I say that they are equivalent? Are you putting words into my mouth? Does dancing lead to sin? Are comets the devil's angels?

[apocalypsehow]

132. More nonsense and projection. Sad. n/t.

[Luminous Animal]

144. Thomas Kinkade is as good an artist as Mel Gibson. And that is a fact.

[Goblinmonger]

162. I hate Thomas Kinkade

Not because I know one damn thing about him, but because his "paintings" don't do one damn thing for me.

See how I can evaluate the art without know a thing about the artist.

[apocalypsehow]

89. #77: "I did not dismiss Shakespeare. But thanks for playing."

#43: "If Shakespeare were a modern playwright, I'd reject him outright"

Yep: thanks for "playing"... ( :eyes: )

[Luminous Animal]

95. Yay! Good boy! Maybe next time you could truncate my quote to this...

"If Shakespeare" and you can the rest up to people's imagination!

[apocalypsehow]

97. "If Shakespeare were a modern playwright, I'd reject him outright."

Your words. At least have the intellectual integrity to own them. Thanks.

[Luminous Animal]

103. I won't deny them. And yes. If Shakespeare were a modern playwright, I'd reject him outright.

He is contemptuous of women and the laboring class and he elevates the aristocracy. Besides that, I wouldn't have the hubris to define art. Which I haven't done no matter how many times you stamp your feet and claim that I have.

[apocalypsehow]

106. Projection at its finest - it's been you "stamping your feet" insisting you haven't "defined" art.

Now you confess you have been doing it all along.

Your concession is noted.

[Luminous Animal]

117. Odd. You seem to equate critiquing art with defining art.

Wouldn't the very act of critiquing art be acknowledging it?

[apocalypsehow]

121. Odd. You seem to be making stuff up and inserting it in other posters mouths while on the losing end

of a debate. Typical.

Please try again.

[Luminous Animal]

124. Is Shakespeare your father? You seem to have a lot invested in defending him.

[apocalypsehow]

125. And right on cue, the emotional, in lieu of the factual, responses erupt. Not surprised in the least

[apocalypsehow]

127. ...

"If Shakespeare were a modern playwright, I'd reject him outright. He's only worth studying for his influence on western narrative. And really, that is not saying much for western narrative."


"It is as interesting as reading the same plot arc over and over again. Much like many of Shakespeare's plays."

[apocalypsehow]

98. I'll bet you highly regret that the "edit" time has passed on your post #43, eh?

Too bad - you should have the intellectual integrity to stand behind your posts. Even ones that are obviously as ill-informed as that one.

[apocalypsehow]

101. If you don't like your own typed, and quoted, words in reply #43, why don't you hit "alert" and ask

the mods to remove it? :shrug:

I know I would certainly be embarrassed to have typed the words "If Shakespeare were a modern playwright, I'd reject him outright."

I surely would - how about just hitting "alert" and begging the mods to remove that ill-informed post?

[Luminous Animal]

104. Actually, I hope you post a reference to it 50 times more.

[apocalypsehow]

107. Since it proves my point, I will never tire of posting it. But thanks for the encouragement.

Some of us don't fall for the counter-intuitive nonsense. You lost this debate, and are now trying to salvage some scrap of credibility.

Please try again. :hi:

[Luminous Animal]

111. My rejection of Shakespeare as a relevent voice in the modern era does not prove

that I have attempted to define art.

Sorry, you lose.

But please, go on and post #43 again! It is as interesting as reading the same plot arc over and over again. Much like many of Shakespeare's plays.

[apocalypsehow]

116. Sorry, you lose: your own frequently posted words in this very OP belie what you state in this post.

Please try again.

[apocalypsehow]

118. The literary know-nothingism just flows over:

#43: "If Shakespeare were a modern playwright, I'd reject him outright. He's only worth studying for his influence on western narrative. And really, that is not saying much for western narrative."


"It is as interesting as reading the same plot arc over and over again. Much like many of Shakespeare's plays."

Very telling, that.

[miyazaki]

105. I watch Mel Gibson movies. Guess i'm an asshole.

That about sums up your stupid op.

[apocalypsehow]

109. The OP doesn't even like Shakespeare:

"If Shakespeare were a modern playwright, I'd reject him outright. He's only worth studying for his influence on western narrative. And really, that is not saying much for western narrative." That's reply #43 above.

[Luminous Animal]

120. Indeed. I find him trite compared with more nuanced modern playrights.

[apocalypsehow]

122. And therein lies a genuine confession of something you have yet to acknowledge about yourself. n/t.

[Luminous Animal]

126. Actually, I think I am ackowledging it quite publicly. Yes DUers please note

and never ever forget that I find Shakespeare trite.

[apocalypsehow]

128. Yes, note it very well: "I find Shakespeare trite."

And bookmark it, for future reference. :thumbsup:

[Luminous Animal]

131. No doubt, it will be useful at my witch trial.

[apocalypsehow]

133. Now the fact that you dismiss Shakespeare as a literary figure is considered a "witch trial."

Laughable.

Please try again.

[Luminous Animal]

135. Never once dismissed him as a literary figure.

[apocalypsehow]

136. Yes, you did: ""If Shakespeare were a modern playwright, I'd reject him outright"

#43 above.

Pitiful.

[Luminous Animal]

138. Assessing Shakespeare in terms of modern theater is not dismissing him as literary figure.

[apocalypsehow]

139. More nonsense, since you never once "assessed" Shakespeare" in terms of "modern theater" but simply

stated the following broad-brushed attacks:

"If Shakespeare were a modern playwright, I'd reject him outright. He's only worth studying for his influence on western narrative. And really, that is not saying much for western narrative."


"It is as interesting as reading the same plot arc over and over again. Much like many of Shakespeare's plays."

Once again, your own typed words belie your latest posted offering. Please try again.

[Luminous Animal]

142. You've lost the plot. Get a grip.

There is much in modern theater that has broken the ties to traditional western narrative. In my opinion, once modern theater rejected the Shakespeare mold, it became exciting.

[apocalypsehow]

140. Again and again again in this thread, your own typed words have proven me right, and you wrong.

Any regrets so far? :shrug:






( :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: )

[Luminous Animal]

146. Nary a one.

[apocalypsehow]

137. "My rejection of Shakespeare" - reply #111. Sad, this charade you continue to project. n/t.

[apocalypsehow]

123. DU, here's a poster who finds William Shakespeare "trite." Note it well. n/t.

[LostinVA]

112. I haven't since that homophobic cesspool "Braveheart"

And his homophobic rants in interviews about the movie.

[Carolina]

119. Never particularly cared for Mel Gibson

and his words seal the deal.

But I differ from many here. I'm glad his filter failed and he said what he thought, betrayed his true self. As a minority, I prefer knowing the truth about people. Racism never died with desegregation; it went covert. Frankly I'd rather know.

Wonder how Danny Glover feels.

[AngryAmish]

134. If they can play Wagner in Isreal...

I suppose it depends on the movie. I'll always watch mad Max and Road Warrior. I support the ban on the Lethal Weapon series. Never saw the jesus movie or the south american movie.

[conspirator]

141. I have to open an exception for mad max n/t

[DailyGrind51]

145. I continue to watch "The Road Warrior" about once a year, just to remember the "good Mel".

[old mark]

147. We stopped watching even the re-runs after the anti Jewish remarks

several years ago. Have not missed any of them, either.

mark

[LanternWaste]

148. the Devil whispered behind the leaves...

"And the first rude sketch that the world had seen was joy to his mighty heart, till the Devil whispered behind the leaves 'It's pretty, but is it Art?'" ~ Rudyard Kipling

[MadBadger]

151. Old ones sure, Prob never go see him in a theater though

[Fleshdancer]

152. I doubt he'll be in anything new at this point (for good reason)

Would I re-watch any of his older stuff? I have Braveheart around here somewhere, but I can't imagine watching it now without thinking "wow, this actor is such a racist, woman beating asshole" and I'm pretty sure that thought would get in the way of me enjoying the movie. Since I've seen it several times already, it's not like I'll be missing anything.

[Iggo]

153. Yep.

I still listen to Stranglehold whenever it comes on, too.

In fact, I turn it up. Loud.

[Mudoria]

154. As long as he doesn't pull a "Polanski"

I have no problems watching a Gibson flick.

[LostinVA]

165. Honest question: why is domestic violence "better" than rape?

They are both violence against women. Gibson is laos a vocal bigot, including being a Holocaust Denier.

[MadHound]

155. If you limited your artistic exposure to those artists who are deemed to be politically correct,

Then you will miss out on a wealth of wonder that they have given to our culture. Artists come in all shapes, sizes and political views, just like the rest of us. Deeming a person's work worthwhile based on their political views as opposed to what they produce has been a practice of tyrannical governments throughout history, do we really need to repeat that again.

[w8liftinglady]

157. I can't help myself.I LOVE "The Year of Living Dangerously"

don't hate me ;)

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

210. Me, too. One of my all-time favorite movies.

I don't know if Mel was such a total dickhead back then, or if he turned into one as he got older and richer, but that sure was a good movie. And I really liked "Gallipoli," too.

[pipi_k]

163. I asked the question somewhere upthread but it will probably get lost, so...

I'll ask it again here...

People who can't seem to separate the person from his/her Art...

Or, at least, people who can't enjoy someone's Art because they think that person's politics or morals are contemptible...

Is there anyone whose Art you do not like, even though that person's life is squeaky clean, or their politics match your own? Do you hear a song and think, eeewwww....that sort of sucks....but then discover it's by an artist whose ideals match your own, and automatically change your opinion of the song?

I'm thinking...probably not.


So why can't someone like Mel Gibson movies even though he's an asshole? Or enjoy Ted Nugent songs even though he's a RW shithead?

Or enjoy Elton John's music even if he DID perform at Rush Limbaugh's wedding...

:shrug:

[LostinVA]

167. There are PLENTY, and just off the top of my head

JLo
Will Smith
Barbra Streisand
Jennifer Aniston
Tarantino
Beyonce
Josh Groban
Spike Lee
Mariah Carey
The guy in the Beastie Boys whose name I can never remember -- Adam Horowitz?
Jonas Bros.

I could think of more if I Had time.

And, the day Elton played for Rush' wedding is the day all his CDs were tossed into the trash and his songs deleted off my iPod.

[Iggo]

176. I'm sorry, wait.

You DISLIKED the work of those people on your list until you found out they had political leanings you admired, and then all of a sudden you LIKED their work?

You can dislike a certain song and then, after finding out you like the politics of the singer, find out suddenly that you LIKE that same song you disliked the day before?

[LostinVA]

185. No, I never liked them

That was what the poster asked. Their political leanings made no difference to my liking them.

:wtf:

[Iggo]

205. Whooosh!!!!

I misunderstood.

[Name removed]

180. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LostinVA]

184. I don't consider moral stands "creepy"

I would hope, and would also bet, Beyonce wouldn't sing at David Dukes' wedding reception. I am betting there would be even more outrage among her fans than there was for EJ's if she did. I am also betting she would be boycotted, as well she should. Elton John has every right to insult his GLBT audience the way he did, and we have every right to boycott him.

You sure are all over these threads denouncing me for boycotting entertainers I don't agree with. I also don't shop at Wal-Mart, nor drink "Big Dairy" milk, nor would I ever visit Zimbabwe, or cross a picket line.

"Creepy" my ass.

[SunnySong]

187. I never paid much attention to the milk thing but I am weith you on the other 4

But not watching Ferris Buellers day off because Ben Stien is in it or Lethal weapon because Mel stars seems a bit much.

[LostinVA]

191. BZZZZZZZZZZZ

[Maru Kitteh]

192. So Ben Stein was the star of Ferris Bueller's Day Off? That was HIM on all those posters?

Wow. He really looked young for his age, huh?

And here I thought he had a few bit seconds of a part as a boring economics teacher. Silly me.

[Fleshdancer]

170. U2, Streisand, Alec Baldwin., Elton John...

just to name a few on my list.

As for Gibson and Nugent, is anyone here saying you can't watch or listen to them? :shrug: I don't, but I don't care if you or anyone else does.

[pipi_k]

173. No, nobody said I can't listen to them, but someone upthread

appeared to need an explanation about how it's possible to separate a person from the art, music, literature, etc., he produces.

OK...reply #8.

I'm not sure whether to take that as genuine curiosity, or a challenge...you know...having to justify being able to separate an artist from his art.


That's why I asked the question from the other point of view...

[Codeine]

200. I like that question.

No amount of liberal activism or working for peace will ever make me like Carlos Santana or The Dixie Chicks, so why should a political stance I dislike cause me to discard a work of art I previously enjoyed?

Note: Mel Gibson is not an artist, makes shit movies, and is entirely tangential to this bit of discussion. ;)

[Brickbat]

166. I'm sure I'll watch "Gallipoli" again someday. That's a fuckin' awesome movie.

[whatchamacallit]

168. I rented Apocalypto and thought it was kind of amazing

that said, Mel is definitely batshit.

[slackmaster]

172. Yes I will watch them - Beyond Thunderdome is the shit

And "separating the artist from the asshole" is Mel Gibson's problem, not mine.

[jobycom]

175. I personally can't agree with anyone but myself on anything

So I choose to only read what I write.

I get why people would be so disgusted with Mel Gibson that they can't watch him anymore. Honestly, I'm not sure I'll watch him again, and if I do, I'm not sure I can look past the actor and see his work. That happens from time to time, when you lose the illusion because the actor has become so visible. But I won't swear off him or off anyone else, just because I hate absolutes (even that one), and I won't scream and curse at people who don't swear off him as though I'm morally superior for condemning a lifetime of work over a few statements that weren't meant to be public and that I don't know the context of.

If I stop watching him, it won't be a decision I make, it will just be a reaction to seeing him again. If I don't stop, it will be because I'm still able to see the art instead of the person. That has nothing to do with what I think of his comments or his views in general, it has only to do with whether his artwork (I use the term loosely) transcends his personal idiocy. I can't really answer that yet because I haven't seen him in a while. He's not an actor I seek out, but he's never been one I avoided, either. I've always generally thought he was pretty good at what he did.

ANd just because I made the passing comment above and someone will call me on it if they happen to read this, I'll explain my context comment further. Just as the OP used the N word above to try to make a point, and just as rappers can use the word in a completely different connotation, there is a context to what Gibson said. I can't think of any that would make his use of the word appropriate or palatable, but since I don't know his relationship with his ex, I don't really know why he used it. Maybe it is because he's an outright racist who thinks in those terms. Given his past comments, I don't really doubt that. But it's also possible he's just throwing a word back at her that she's used to him. And it's possible the word is just an angry insult from him that doesn't reflect racial views so much as his thinking it's a vile word to use when angry. I say the MF word all the time, and don't mean it in a literal sense. That wouldn't make it a good word to use, but it could mean that it doesn't reflect what he thinks of African Americans in general.

Or, he could be a complete racist ass. I'm not saying he isn't. I suspect he's rather bigotted, given his word choice and political and religious views. But I just don't know because I know nothing of the man except the occasional bits of noise that hit the news about him. I don't believe we can know anyone through the media like that because we only have a few dramatic moments. Imagine someone defining you by the absolute worst things you've said or done. The time you slipped and called your mother a bad name. The time you blew off a friend in need. We all have moments we aren't proud of. That's how we learn to be better people. For celebrities, though, those moments are what the media and the public use to define them. So I leave my judgement of him open (a little, anyway--he's an ass, the question is just how much of one).

Just my thoughts. Probably wrong, as always. More than anyone will read, anyway.

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

177. I just saw "the Book of Eli"

It was like watching Road Warrior. But without Mel.

:hi:

[RedCappedBandit]

178. Probably. I just like watching movies. Sure won't be paying to see one, though.

[lynne]

181. Yep, I love his movies. Just re-watched "The Patriot" on July 4th -

Apocalypto was amazing as was Passion of the Christ. Can't leave Braveheart out of the mix and don't forget all the Lethal Weapon's. If I didn't watch movies that included people I didn't personally agree with about something then I'd probably have to throw my TV out the window and never go to the theater.

[DainBramaged]

182. Yes I will. Ron Silver was a Reich-wing asshole, but I enjoyed him as an actor

and may he rest in peace.


The public disagrees with DU's opinion on movies, and as a matter of fact, so do I. We need to get our collective heads out of our collective asses and simply just don't pay the money to watch movies of those we dislike instead of bashing the crap out of Hollywood which helped propel President Obama into office.

[LostinVA]

186. What does Mel Gibson have to do with Hollywood helping Obama get elected?

I don't think anyone is advocating for not watching movies.

[DainBramaged]

189. I find these 'I hate (fill in the actor)' threads laughable

Oil is destroying our Gulf Coasts, people are dying in TWO wars we started, our GLBT friends still don't have equal rights, and DU is concerned about boycotting Mel Gibson movies.


More people have chimed in on this thread than about most thread on GD today.


But who cares what I think, I'm just concerned about Middle Class America...............

[LostinVA]

190. I'm concerned about middle class Americans, too

And mine and our civil rights. So, I boycott people and businesses whom I think are actually dangerous to our rights. He is a anti-Semitic, homophobic, misogynistic, Holocaust Denying, domestic abuser. WTF would I give him one bit of my money or time?

[DainBramaged]

196. We already know what he is

Mel Gibson is this month's Olive Garden, soda for people on food stamps, DU distraction of the month.

[SunnySong]

188. I can still watch Lethal Weapon right?

because I figure Danny Glover cancels out Mel Gibson.

[Mimosa]

193. I still watch Woody Allen movies. n/t

[Amaya]

194. Mel is a racist, homophobic, misogynistic asshole

but I did like Braveheart ...

[Lone_Star_Dem]

198. I was a no vote, but I should be clear

I don't watch them anyway. I just don't like him as an actor. I know his talents are popular with many folks here. I'm just not one of them. The fact that he's such a prick just makes me dislike him on a different level too.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

201. Other: maybe, but only in a way that doesn't contribute to his wallet OR ratings. -nt

[blondeatlast]

202. Not likely, the ones I've seen on the toob are self-aggrandizing borefests,

only interesting in large snarky groups with lots of wine.

Pay to? Hell no.

[ZombieHorde]

209. I don't know. Most of his movies I can do without, but I did really like The Passion of the Christ.

Braveheart has some fun scenes, but the movie seems anti-gay, anti-pagan. I happen to like gay pagans.

Passion of the Christ is a pretty fun flick.

[LatteLibertine]

211. There is nothing Hollywood produces

that I can't live without. I started drifting away from supporting Mel some time ago. His anti-semitic tirade sealed the deal. The man disgusts me and I won't support a project he is a part of. I don't want to do anything that potentially gives that man a cent.

[CakeGrrl]

213. I may watch some of them, but I won't pay at the box office

I re-watched "Signs" last night on Encore. Good movie despite the fact that his racist, misogynistic rants are the first thing I think about when I see him.

I'm black, by the way.

It depends on the actor and the degree to which I can enjoy a movie despite them. I happen to like "8 Seconds" despite the presence of Stephen Baldwin, but anything else he's in doesn't interest me. John Wayne? Don't care if I ever see any of his flicks. Jon Voight? I like some of his movies despite his advanced Obama Derangement Syndrome, and so on.

[BurtWorm]

214. I stopped watching Mel Gibson movies after The Year of Living Dangerously.

Not for political reasons, for artistic reasons. I think he sucks as an actor and a director.

PS: And his movie choices are abysmal. Bottom of the barrel.

[Bluebear]

215. His genre has never been my style, but I couldn't enjoy watching him now.