"There are two novels that can transform a bookish 14-year-old's life: .....

[marmar]

......The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish daydream that can lead to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood in which large chunks of the day are spent inventing ways to make real life more like a fantasy novel. The other is a book about orcs."


- from Raj Patel's "The Value of Nothing."

[enlightenment]

1. Love it! nt

[Richardo]

2. HA!

:thumbsup:

[blondeatlast]

3. Perfect. nt

[OmahaBlueDog]

4. LOL

:rofl: :spray:

[Overseas]

5. K&R! //nt

[WhoIsNumberNone]

6. LOL

[WhoIsNumberNone]

7. LOL

[eleny]

8. OT - But it made me recall how at that age The Grapes of Wrath transformed me in the summer of 1961

[brer cat]

10. Ditto here...

also The Jungle by Upton Sinclair.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

12. And,, "Catch-22" transformed a 19 year old marine in 1964.

Never laughed so hard in my life...and then I caught on that it wasn't funny at all and it wasn't just about the military.

[Erose999]

51. Heller, Vonnegut, and O'Brien got me through my teenage years.

I really don't see any humor in what I've read of/about Rand's books. Maybe thats why the RW is so bitter and spiteful?

[liberation]

53. The humor in Rand's books is that with her 500+ page nonsensical diatribe exercises,

Rand wastes the reader's time in such a monumental scale, that in the end the joke is firmly planted on the reader.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

9. LOL

[Paladin]

11. Well and Truly Said. (n/t)

[Froward69]

13. The two transformative books @14 for me were

Fear and loathing in Las Vegas and the Odessa file.

"Watergate" was another.

Then when Nancy Reagan came out with just say NO... We all asked ourselves "does she really think we are that stupid?"

[cilla4progress]

14. This lefty lady must comment!

I was turned onto Ayn Rand by friends in high school circa 1971. Read 3 of her books - Shrugged, Fountainhead, one other.. She did not turn me (pleased to report!)! The influences of my family's politics and compassion...and perhaps my DNA!... led me to retain my liberal / progressive leanings.

What Rand's writings DID to me, and it remains to this day, is that I find I push mySELF to be MY best. You see, I am advantaged. I come from college-educated parents who paid for MY college... I could never justify my OWN self not to push to be my best. It never transferred over to application to others, only myself. Also, I never thought that hard about the selfishness, but if I did, I would say it is selfish for ALL in a society to have certain inalienable rights: housing, food, education, health care -- it redounds to oneself to have everyone in a society and globe in fact, reasonably well cared for.

Does this make sense to anyone?

[Skidmore]

16. In the same age group and attempted to read Rand as part of

summer reading. Could never make it through more than one chapter of her writings. Overblown, grandiose, and boring in her writing style. Painfully excrutiating.

[Igel]

19. That's how I find L. Leonov's writing.

Never could get past the first 15 pages of "Russian Forest." "Russian River" (Sot') was even worse--by page 2 I was dozing.

Fedin. Much of Sholokhov. At least Kataev and Ostrovsky had fast moving, cliched plots.

Moralistic, tendentiously sermonizing literature, both utopian and dystopian, was in the air in both languages. She managed to resemble the Russian version in English, which made it all that much worse.

I've found that one's standards for literary worth often depend on the degree to which the moralizing and tendentious sermonizing agree with how much one wants one's own ranked values and ideology reflected in society--the sermonizing is less noticeable, and it's easier to relish the stereotypical bad guys getting squashed and accept the good guys' stereotypical triumphs as plausible. A conservative writer producing something that openly espouses conservative values would have to be stellar to be accepted by a liberal audience--and most critics and "fine arts" readers are liberal.

I don't care all that much, really, because my ranking and ideology is so idiosyncratic and avowedly internally inconsistent. I find Steinbeck and Sinclair Lewis and even Huxley on par with Fedin and Leonov. Simonov I even actively like. Rand and even some of Heinlein I put in with Kataev and Ostrovsky, at least in part because Rand wrote in my native language while Kataev and Ostrovsky's less convoluted Russian makes their works equivalently easy to breeze through. I'd try to compare Zamyatin and Rand's Anthem, but have utterly forgotten Anthem in anything more than the broadest of outlines and read Zamyatin far too early in my acquisition of Russian. Still, these are the comparisons and contrasts that would inform a nuanced and intelligent reading of Rand, if understanding, nuance, and intelligence is what's wanted.

[azul]

21. And how,

but I was then 30-something.

LOR was pretty boring stuff too compared to ER Eddison and Michael Moorecock and William Morris, and others.

[Earth Bound Misfit]

22. Rand's books are good books to bring on a camping trip.

Lots of pages, and I always run short of toilet paper.

[JHB]

40. Plenty. I know a number of people who think favorably of Rand...

...but are not idiotic Objectivists nor Libertarian bots. They basically took in the better aspects of individualism (or simply individuality) and ignored the rest of the crap.

They tend to view getting worked up against Rand as just the opposite number of the loopy Objectivists. I don't think they quite understand how much how much influence the "loopy Objectivists" have gained over economic policy, which is where the harshest anti-Rand critiicism is coming from.

[justabob]

46. what you describe is similar to my experience

I read Fountainhead and Atlas Shrugged in high school, Anthem and We the Living later. I loved them and found a message that worked for me on a very personal level, but it is absolutely not scalable, and is completely unworkable at a societal level. Now having said that, I reread Atlas Shrugged a few years ago and found it to be horrible and excruciating, even knowing Rand's history and what she wrote in response to. I guess the whole running away from all the people you don't agree with and policies you don't like really appeals to high schoolers. :)

[Curmudgeoness]

15. The Jungle and The Grapes of Wrath are my two.

These books made me what I am today, and I never forget the downtrodden or forgotten in our society. All because these books instilled in me that all poor are not lazy, shit happens to the best of us, and even if some people try their hardest they cannot rise above their circumstances---all due to the powers that be.

[cilla4progress]

18. Well put.

I guess what I got from Rand was that due to the fact I was advantaged, I had an obligation to take on responsibility for those you describe. I have passed this on to my own child, who is similarly advantaged...as I was. "From whom much is given, much is required" (or something like that...).

[Hannah Bell]

38. they don't need you to take responsibility for them. they're not your dependents, they're full

adults & citizens, equal to yourself.

[cilla4progress]

48. Well, I guess I'd disagree.

I guess I'd say on some level we are all responsible for one another. We all depend on one another. No need to read this into my comments.

[Hannah Bell]

58. my post isn't intended to be personal; the sentiment you express is common, &

i've expressed more or less the same one in the same way.

but i later came to see it as an expression of the problem, not the solution.

you say you are advantaged, therefore you take responsibility for these others.

then you say we're all responsible for each other.

but you can surely see that were someone to say, "i'm disadvantaged, therefore i must take responsibility for cilla4progress" the implications are completely different?

where there are permanent relationships of inequality between adults, there is sickness.

[cilla4progress]

61. Agreed, but it's probably simply in the semantics.

I believe unequivocally that those of us with inherited advantages have a responsibility to the rest of earth's children and living beings to support, share, and advocate for them. I have spent my entire professional career in this endeavor. Does this mean I take an attitude of superiority towards those who, as a simple twist of fate, are born without the good fortune of material wealth - including education, comfortable shelter, plenty of food?

And what of material wealth? I have received SO MUCH from individuals and communities who were born into dire circumstances, that it's not even quantifiable. So yes, these people have, in many cases "taken responsibility" for me - for my spiritual upbringing, ethical training, and education in humility.

[Hannah Bell]

64. it looks different from the other end. inequality breeds sickness & distorted human beings --

on both sides.

i respectfully register my disagreement with your entire premise, no matter how idealistically stated.

my ideal is not a world of advantaged people being responsible for the less advantaged. i think that world is a sick world.

[cilla4progress]

65. I didn't know we were creating utopias...

only dealing with reality. Thank you for your comments.

[Ignis]

57. Wow, that's some heavy reading for a kid.

But I can't disagree with your choices: Both amazing books, and both teach a good Lefty message.

:thumbsup:

[EFerrari]

17. Raj Patel is the man.

lol

[phantom power]

20. I actually liked both of them. Thus leading me to invent Lord of the Objectivist Rings.

Where the fellowship of the ring finds its raison d'etre through the virtues of selfish reasons to destoy the ring.

:evilgrin:

[Dead_Parrot]

23. ...

[phantom power]

60. Well... I got better

[nxylas]

39. Surely Sauron would be the hero in LOTOR?

In the real LOTR, Sauron is at least partly undone by the fact that his followers are utterly incapable of orgaining for a common purpose due to their own selfishness and greed. If Rand had written it, this would have somehow magically transformed itself into Sauron achieving all his aims (obtaining the Ring of Power and taking control of Middle-earth - what more noble aims could there be?) as their self-interest ends up contributing to the common good.

[McCamy Taylor]

44. For sure!

[nxylas]

56. orgaining = organizing

Sorry, I noticed that after the editing period had expired. I must have had a brain-fart while typing or something.

[phantom power]

59. Hmm... like -- "Sauron Shrugged?"

[Delphinus]

24. That's a pretty sharp wit, there.

I can't wait to get his book!

[JerseygirlCT]

25. Love it

I was ready to get my back up defending one of my favorite books ever, lol.

[boppers]

26. Wrongly quoted. Patel didn't write that, it's blatant plagiarism.

"Unfortunately, this quip is by writer John Rogers, circulated on the Internet in the spring of 2009. (When alerted, Patel indicated he was embarassed by his inadvertent error and issued an online apology.)"

http://www.inthesetimes.com/article/5554/escape_from_the_dismal_life/

[lukasahero]

50. Yay John Rogers!

I love him! :loveya:

[Hardrada]

27. Captain Horatio Hornblower by C.S. Forester.

Starship Troopers by Robert Anson Heinlein.

I read about all the stuff these guys ever wrote. Made me gung-ho, that's for sure.

But all of Dickens also when I was 13-15. And this gave me the same kind of deep insight I later got from Dostoeyevsky and Chekhov.

I am going to have to add Darkness at Noon by Arthur Koestler who got to the heart of totalitarian belief systems.

[McCamy Taylor]

43. I read Hornblower, too. I read lots of historical fiction. Patrick O'Brian is the best

for British Royal Navy. And very, very pc.

I read all of Jane Austen when I was 12-13.

[BrklynLiberal]

28. Perfect! Merely perfect.

[pitohui]

29. what are you serious?

i got nothing out of either of these books, and if i wasn't a bookish kid nobody was

what's wrong w. the classics, such as the divine marquis???

altho to be honest the most life changing for me at that age was 1984

[Prophet 451]

30. I would have thought one had to be 14 to enjoy Rand

Otherwise, one would notice her awful writing style and psychopathic "philosophy". Rand was merely another entry in mankind's endless efforts to justify naked greed, nothing more, nothing less. One of the most overrated writers in recent history although it's easy to see why certain politicians and economists adore her work.

[SanchoPanza]

31. "This is not a novel to be tossed aside lightly."

"It should be thrown with great force."
- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dorothy_Parker">Dorothy Parker

[tnlurker]

32. Nice

I am going to leave this on somebody's desk tomorrow.

[murielm99]

33. I thought this was going to be a nice little post about

To Kill a Mockingbird and how much we all loved it. After all, the book did just turn fifty.

[bertman]

34. Now, that's a gem. Thanks, marmar. Rec. nt

[BobTheSubgenius]

35. Self-delete for duplication.

[AllyCat]

36. I've seen this before, but I love it every time I see it! K and R!

[MindPilot]

37. Out in the real world no one has even heard of Ayn Rand.

I had to read Fountainhead in high school. But among my younger-than-me college-educated co-workers, any Randian reference is completely lost.

[Spheric]

41. LOL K&R /nt

[McCamy Taylor]

42. Good one!

When I was about 12, Ms. magazine had a great feature about Rand. After that, I was never tempted to read anything by her. Nor would I watch the movie version of The Fountainhead . It all sounded like a female version of Conan . The Cult of the Great Man is usually some sort of fascism, i.e. society's "betters" should be in charge of the masses.

On the other hand, the first book I read by myself was Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe and I bought TLOTR when I was 9 but could not really get into it until I was 12. Go orcs!

[h9socialist]

45. Ayn Rand was a loveless, nasty old bitch!

I shrug every time I think of her. She's the godmother of
Sarah Palin, Michele Bachmann and Sharon Angle.

[DesertDiamond]

47. I give this one a standing ovation!!! ROFL!!

[Patiod]

49. What's with all the Rand on this site this week

including my post about my friend having to teach "Anthem"?

Must be the heat.....

[burnsei sensei]

52. The short fiction of Nathaniel Hawthorne

influenced me far more.
It's humanistic, compassionate.
And in it, the individual really means something.

[flakey_foont]

54. and

surely Aragorn could kick John Gault's ass!!!

[SheilaT]

55. When I was about 17 a good friend

of mine got into Ayn Rand's book, and just raved about how wonderful they were and how I should read them. I started one of them, probably Atlas Shrugged, and found it completely stupid, not to mention nearly unreadable. I seem to recall thinking that every single one of the underlying premises that the book was based on were false.

This was more than forty years ago. I got maybe a third of the way into the book before giving it up as a complete waste of my time, not to mention the brain cells that were dying off from reading that crap. As best I recall, Rand encourages monumental selfishness. And for that she's admired?

[TrogL]

62. I've been looking for this

:rofl:

[Rex]

63. Rand is proof that a horrible book can still get a following

even if said book is full of crap and worthless to society.