Who Are We?

[Cary]

Are we people who can possibly form a coalition with radical "conservative" extremists?

I can only speak for myself and I can say with confidence that I will never, ever be able to form any coalition with any radical "conservative" extremist. I have been having "discussions" with these people for a decade now on other, smaller boards. These people are out of their minds batshit crazy. They are anti-intellectual because they're just coherent enough to know that they can't compete in any legitimate intellectual forum. They are denialists to the extreme. They believe that their ideology is a priori correct because it is, and anything to the contrary is evil. They are not monolithic but they are able to subsume their differences to form an amazingly solid coalition to garner, say, 30% of the electorate.

They are also unrepentant Bush apologists who want another George Bush. But they're smart enough to be dishonest about this in their bizarre, Leo Strauss inspired way.

I try to never say never, but in this instance I will never form any coalition with any of the people as long as they adhere to this dysfunctional, asinine ideology or any variant of it including objectivism or anarcho-capitalism. I despise these people and their ad hominems and their projections. I despise their anti-intellectualism. I despise them because they have damaged us so deeply and profoundly with their "supply-side economics" sophistry, their "Two Santa Claus" bullshit, and their radical ideas about war. "Conservatives" suck, and I have to say too that anyone who is not a "conservative" but subscribes to any notion other than that these "conservatives" must be crushed at the polls is delusional. Until such time as "conservatives" actually hit bottom and enter into a recovery from their addiction to this pernicious ideology, any compromise with them or allowing them any political success at all is just plain old, every day denial and co-dependence.

I am utterly amazed at how obvious this all is, and how only a year and a half out some of us have lost our memory of how bad things were and how "conservatives" have fucked us up.

Most amazing is the momentum of austerity, of all things. Austerity in a liquidity trap is just sheer stupidity.

We cannot let "conservatives" back into a position of power. Really. I'm amazed that I have to even say this. Do you really want a Mitch McConnell as Senate Majority Leader, or John Boehner as Speaker of the House?

[Recursion]

1. Well, to put it bluntly, tough. There aren't enough of us to do it without some of them

And even if there were, it's their country too, and we have to do what we can to get them to buy-in to our ideas by incorporating some of theirs.

[Cary]

2. You consider your statement to be "blunt".

I consider your notion here to be delusional and I offer the experience of the past year and a half as Exhibit 1.

"Conservatives" aren't interested in "buying in to our ideas." That idea is anathema to them and you're naive if you think otherwise.

They might play you for a sucker, but they will never "buy in".

[Recursion]

4. Yes, yes, we're noble-hearted smart people and they're insane slack-jawed yokels

The last year and a half don't mean anything; the tea party useful idiots will be as forgotten as they became after they supported Perot. Conservatives have some good ideas, we have more good ideas, but this need to be existentially right while seeing them as existentially wrong troubles me.

[Cary]

11. You Underestimate the Pathology that is Contemporary American "Conservatives"

You do this at your own peril. They are a cancer on our body politic.

It's not about a "need to be existentially right while seeing them as existentially wrong." In fact I wish they were right and that I was wrong. What can be better than cutting taxes and increasing our tax revenues? We have an incredible military. What would be better than a just peace that we could impose by simply rolling over a few dictators whom we despise?

If I could divide the world into good and evil, with me being nothing but good, why wouldn't I do that?

And what could be better than Sugar Plum Fairies?

You could probably identify a good quality of cancer too, but I'd still recommend that you cut it out of your body post haste.

If and when real conservatives eclipse the pathological radicals I'll come back to where you are, but I'm not holding my breath.

[Recursion]

13. You're getting really close to a Godwin moment NT

[Cary]

25. Nice ad hominem.

Why don't you address the subject of the argument?

It is such a disappointment to me that liberals would engage in this ridiculous ploy. If you argument has merit you will prevail. Resorting to logical fallacies like this one is actually a concession.

[Recursion]

32. That's not remotely an ad hominem

"Cancer on the body politic" was what I was talking about -- calling your political opponents that has some bad precedents.

[Cary]

36. Calling a cancer anything less has worse precedents.

Look up the word "metastasize"? I'm not calling for genocide or a Holocaust and your mealymouthed suggestion that I am is ironic. What I am calling for is a recognition that these extremists are extremist, and I speak from a lot of experience.

Underestimating them is a huge mistake. Unless and until you have some actual precedent to the contrary, instead of a bare "gee wouldn't it be nice if we could make nice with them" they're the enemy, period.

[Recursion]

41. Human beings are not cancer

Becoming a photo negative of the worst part of the right is a Bad Idea.

[EstimatedProphet]

45. This is the worst part of the right? But you want to compromise with them!

Why?

[Recursion]

47. I didn't say "the worst part of the right" I said "conservatives"

Part of the problem in this board is seeing them all as one blurry, apoplectic mass.

But, for that matter, we have had some inroads getting very conservative Christians to work with us on peace, the environment, and poverty. So, yeah, even some of the really out-there guys I can work with sometimes.

[EstimatedProphet]

49. The OP talked about radical conservative extremists

It's in the very first line. That is what everyone here has been talking about. If you want to talk about another group, fine, but that was the main point.

[Recursion]

50. And then said "30%"

Meaning he thinks all self-identified Republicans (30% of the country) are "radical conservative extremists".

[EstimatedProphet]

53. Actually, this is what he said:

They are not monolithic but they are able to subsume their differences to form an amazingly solid coalition to garner, say, 30% of the electorate.

Meaning that there is a core of crazy - which is very hard to deny - which seems able to coalesce a group of 30% of the electorate. Many of them seem to me to be lockstep Republicans, who are voting for the Republican brand against the Democratic brand, just like Chevy truck drivers will never drive a Ford.

[Recursion]

55. Right. He called 30% of the electorate "crazy"

And I'm just sick of that crap.

[EstimatedProphet]

59. Fine, so it's 18% instead of 30%

Are you trying to claim that this group isn't being actively courted by the right? It's the extreme rightwingers that have been setting the tone for the last year, thanks to the media. They are the ones dominating the conversation. And they are the ones who we will have to compromise with if we are going to compromise with extreme rightwingers. That was, after all, the point of the original post.

[Recursion]

60. Well, that's a big ****ing difference

And is exactly where there's room for compromise and coalition-building.

[EstimatedProphet]

62. In the scheme of things, I don't think it's a big ****ing difference at all

And it still leaves a good 18% of people - almost 1 out of 5 - who are stark raving nuts.

[Cary]

64. Wrong. I clearly said that they can garner 30%.

But I will say that anyone who succumbs to their sophistry is little better than the batshit crazy core.

I am a left leaning moderate so it's ridiculous that you would insinuate that I am somehow a fascist or a leftist counterpart of the teabaggers. I am neither--not even close. In fact I take your words as fighting words. You have a lot of fucking nerve trying to pull that crap on me.

Where you really go off the rails, though, is in your idea that somehow you can't get along with left leaning moderates like me but you can form some kind of coalition with batshit crazy "conservatives" or even with those who find comfort in their aura.

Go to them. See where it gets you. I ain't going with you. Not now; not ever.

[EstimatedProphet]

66. .

:toast:

[Cary]

67. Good on you.

To the point of the OP, are we Democrats and liberals? I don't see how those of us who would succumb to "conservative" sophistry in order to circumvent moderates or pragmatists come to consider themselves either Democrats or liberals.

Fuck 'em. Fuck 'em all.

[laughingliberal]

21. I haven't seen any 'good ideas' from conservatives.

I've seen 30 years of conservative ideology fuel the largest disparity of wealth since the great depression and drive the working and middle classes into the ditch. I'd be interested in knowing what 'good ideas' you think have come from conservatives.

[Recursion]

31. The Earned Income Tax Credit

Tearing down massive dense housing projects and distributing the section 8 housing around the city.

Opposing NAFTA (some liberals opposed it too -- just not enough of us).

Breaking up and parceling out Ma Bell (this had some bumps but is one of the successful examples of privatization).

Seeking a zero-option nuclear deterrent (though I disagree with them about whether the ones they landed on were actually zero-option).

Wanting kids who graduate from a high school in the US to be able to speak and read English fluently.

As a general matter, not assuming that legislation is the best way to solve a problem -- we assume that way too quickly, so we need people that try to avoid ever believing that to pull us back sometimes.

[EstimatedProphet]

39. And all of these are years-old

They've been replaced by ideas like

Let's spend 100 more years in Iraq

Let's open up all the coasts to drilling

Let's privatize Social Security

And always - Let's cut taxes for the rich.

[laughingliberal]

40. Although some of those may have been conservative ideas at the time, I would be hard pressed

to find much support among conservatives of some of them now. Seriously, you know conservatives who like the earned income tax credit? Today's conservatives refer to the recipients as 'lucky ducks' who don't have to pay taxes and can't imagine the suffering of the rich who do have to pay taxes. And, do you see many conservative politicians advocate the repeal or amending of NAFTA?

[EstimatedProphet]

8. Yeah, and clinically delusional people are still citizens, and it's their country too.

Why not simply give their ideas as much weight as everyone else's, and finally do something about the giant purple dragon problem that has been plaguing the country for so long?

Opinions come from facts. There's a bunch of people these days that are blatantly wrong on facts. This means they don't have opinions - instead they have delusions. It does no one any good to pretend that this isn't true. How are we supposed to build policy to address issues that are false?

[Recursion]

10. As much as it may pain you to hear, 30% of the country are not clinically delusional

They disagree with us. They're not insane.

[Cary]

12. I guess that depends on your definition of insane.

In the context of how they want to govern, they are most definitely insane. They are disconnected from reality.

[Recursion]

15. They are not "disconnected from reality" they make decisions differently than we do

And our way, relying on empirical data above everything else, has its problems too.

[Cary]

17. Why are you defending the indefensble?

Not all of the are a priori. Monetarists are heavily into empirical data and they have made a contribution to economic thought over the past 30 years. On the other hand Austrians and their progeny are a priori and I can't think of anything positive to say about their influence.

Even Greenspan, the ultimate objectivist, has had to concede that there is a serious flaw in the ideology. Other than inspiring some adolescents, what good has come from objectivism of Rothbard's anarcho-capitalism?

Greed is not good. Glorifying the worst aspects of human nature is the height of stupidity and arrogance.

[Recursion]

20. Your skewed selective version of what conservatives are, do, and believe is indefensible, sure

But, keeping with the whole "in touch with reality" thing, I'm talking about the actual conservatives in America.

Now, are 99% of Republican politicians corrupt, corporate whores? Yes. What distinguishes them from the Democratic politicians? Our guys are corrupt corporate whores who at least talk about helping us. I'm not talking about the politicians, I'm talking about the Americans that vote for them.

[Cary]

65. It's not just that they're corporate whores.

Do you have any idea how expensive it is to run for a political office? Could you go without an income for two years?

Yeah, the money in the system corrupts. No doubt, but if you truly understand their ideology I don't see how you come to be such an apologist for them.

"Conservatives" today aren't Edmund Burke, or even William F. Buckley. Buckley wasn't so great--nor was Goldwater--but they were lightyears ahead of the forces that hold a death grip over Republicans today.

I understand and even empathize with your desire to think otherwise here, but you're wrong. Very wrong.

[EstimatedProphet]

18. If they want us to base policy on Obama not being a citizen...

what's the difference?

That, by definition is delusional. It's only non-clinical because it hasn't been diagnosed.

[Cary]

22. Exactly, and you could give many more examples.

This was an excellent choice though. Where is the compromise with people who are willing to go this far?

Worse yet there are "conservatives" who offer a mealymouthed denial of the insanity of birtherism: "Clearly Obama is a citizen and it's crazy for people to deny that but Obama should still produce his birth certificate to shut up the birthers. Who me? No, I'm not a birther but one has to wonder why Obama refuses to produce his birth certificate. . ."

These people are not acting in good faith. They cannot be trusted.

[Recursion]

23. Who wants us to "base policy" on that?

They have a small militant core that is really angry Obama won and will grasp at anything to avoid dealing with that -- it's almost exactly like those of us who think Cheney dropped a nuclear bomb on the WTC (the media covers their insanity, which is a mixed blessing for them).

Their actual policy preferences aren't really any different from what our guys are producing (the HCR bill we got was essentially the one suggested by Bob Dole and the AEI). Sometimes where there's smoke there isn't fire. They oppose bills for political reasons (we've done that too) but they aren't in some bizarro-land-insanity-place that's light years away from us, as much as the conflict-and-shouting-driven media want you to think that.

[Cary]

29. You don't understand them.

Their glue, the thing that really binds them, is a deep-seated hatred of what they call liberal. They will hate anything they identify as liberal, always and everywhere.

If you don't understand that by now, you're naive. If you think you're going to overcome that barrier, you're even more naive.

[Recursion]

33. I'm trying to control my laughter, since I'm at work

Re-read this thread and think about what you just wrote. You're calling about a third of the country clinically insane and delusional and out to destroy the country -- because they think (according to you) the same thing about us.

[Cary]

34. You still don't understand

I work with people who are "clinically insane and delusional". The first thing you need to do if you intend to understand them is to throw logic and reason out the window. They will use your logic and your reason against you and they're amazingly good at that.

This is part of the pathology, and it's serious business. It's pernicious and thinking like yours is co-dependent.

It's not the least bit funny.

[Recursion]

35. Oh, I understand you pretty well, I think

And I find this as tiresome as the mirror-image of this talk you hear from the Teahadists.

[Cary]

38. I'm sure you do.

I cast my lot with Democrats and liberals who aren't "tired" and who aren't tired and who still interested in fighting for the Democratic and liberal agenda. I don't see any other viable choice and I'm not tired.

You go soft. I'm continuing the fight.

[EstimatedProphet]

37. Oh! Now I get it!

"Our" side (or at least my side) is just as crazy as theirs is, huh?

Want to know what the big differences are? When the WTC conspiracy theorists started in, they were told by the administration to shut up if they knew what was good for them. Then they were dismissed as crackpots by the left. When the birthers started in with their conspiracy, Obama proved he was a citizen, AND THEY IGNORED THE PROOF. They have stated beliefs that are not bounded in fact in any way shape or form - Obama is a foreigner, their taxes have gone up, there is a secret government program to take guns from citizens, to name a few. They base all of their arguments on these points. There is no difference between the hardcore right and crackpots. They are one and the same, as has been shown recently by the loons winning over the more reasonable members of the right in elections.

The people who you want to compromise with call anyone to the left of Joe McCarthy a commie and talk openly about killing leftists and other groups they claim are "undesireable". How exactly do you propose to compromise with people who base their actions on delusions, and think any kind of compromise with anyone is tantamount to treason?

[Recursion]

42. Who exactly "bases all their arguments" on a publicized fringe's wacky beliefs about Obama's birth?

Seriously, I'd like an example of that.

[EstimatedProphet]

43. The people you're talking about do.

[Recursion]

44. Umm.... no

I'm asking you for an example of a conservative basing policy arguments on the right fringe's beliefs about Obama's birthplace.

[EstimatedProphet]

46. Um...yes.

The OP was about radical conservatives. Those are the radical conservatives. You are the one defending them.

[Recursion]

48. Then an example should be easy to provide

Show me somebody saying, "I believe Obama was born in Kenya, and therefore I propose this following policy:..."

[EstimatedProphet]

51. How about Bill Posey (R-FL)?

http://www.opencongress.org/bill/111-h1503/show

And the co-sponsors:


o Rep. Marsha Blackburn
o Rep. Dan Burton
o Rep. John Campbell
o Rep. John Carter
o Rep. Michael Conaway
o Rep. John Culberson
o Rep. Trent Franks
o Rep. Louis Gohmert
o Rep. Robert Goodlatte
o Rep. Kenny Marchant
o Rep. Randy Neugebauer
o Rep. Ted Poe

[Recursion]

52. What's so horrible about that bill?

If nothing else, it would at least have a chance of shutting up the next round of birthers. Now, constitutionally I think that would need to be a state matter, but still.

This kind of crap is not what should worry us.

[EstimatedProphet]

54. How about the fact that it's a complete waste of time, for no reason other than sour grapes?

How about the fact that a bill was introduced into Congress specifically to imply that the president is illegitimate? I think those things are very worrying.

[Recursion]

56. I think it's a stupid bill, and is going nowhere

But, yeah, I think that's probably the only example of someone actually suggesting a policy based on birtherism. And all we can really say about it is "it's pointless".

[EstimatedProphet]

57. It's pointless, AND it's there to imply that the president is illegitimate

The second part is what has serious consequences down the road. Just like catering to and/or trying to compromise with delusional people.

[Cary]

63. You are clearly confused.

You don't know these people whom you're apologizing for.

[Voltaire]

27. No no...they are insane

I might disagree with menu items in a restaurant, but I am not going to tell sick lies, steal, and shoot someone over it. They will. Because they are insane.

[RKP5637]

3. Well said!!! n/t

[EstimatedProphet]

5. Out of curiousity, who's saying we should?

This sounds like the kind of thing the fake Coffee Party facebook page has been recommending. They have been talking about compromising with the teabillies for a long time now - as if we can compromise with people who believe that facts don't matter in reality. Seriously, how do you compromise with someone who thinks that the left is trying to destroy the country? Agree that the left is only trying to destroy the country for half the time? It's absurd.

[Cary]

7. Amazingly absurd, and yet . . .

I don't know how far I can go to identify this here and not violate the rules EstimatedProphet. I have been studying it though, and I assure you it exists here.

[EstimatedProphet]

9. OK, gotcha.

And what you're saying comes as no surprise.

[leftstreet]

6. So the Democrats oppose austerity? Are they fighting the Catfood Commission?

Hmm

[Cary]

14. What is it you think you're saying here?

You don't cut spending when you're in a liquidity trap, unless you're Herbert Hoover.

[leftstreet]

16. It looked as though were pinning 'austerity' on the Republicans

Confusing

[Cary]

19. I specifically qualified it as austerity now, while we're in a liquidity trap.

If you understood Keynes you would not have been confused. Sorry for the harshness of that conclusion but I'd be lying if I said otherwise. Keynes is very clear on this point.

[laughingliberal]

26. I'm pretty sure we're still going to be in a liquidity trap in Dec when our Congress votes on our

bright, shiny, new, neoliberal austerity program for America.

[Dr Morbius]

24. I'm willing to form a coalition with anyone, provided they're assuming rational policies.

I don't see or even anticipate that happening with the hard right. What I am not willing to do is move to irrational policies, policies which have been proven to be ineffective. But I remain hopeful that the ignorant can be made to see the light, and at that point I am willing to forgive them their former ignorance.

[Cary]

28. I have no evidence that "conservatives" can be made to see the light

Maybe a few here or there, but a sufficient number of the current crop has to die out before the right recovers.

One word: Limbaugh.

[Spazito]

30. Well said!

Recommended.

[DarkValkyrie]

58. It's simple

We're simply human beings who know the difference between right and wrong, good and evil, and the truth from the lies. That's all there is too it.

[Cary]

61. This is an odd post.

Manicheanism much?

[JoeyT]

68. Recced.

I hate their cults of personality that spin and throw blame instead of admitting that people can be wrong, too.