About cars and oil and those who want to tax drivers more:

[The Straight Story]

The Wartsila-Sulzer RTA96-C turbocharged 14 cylinder two-stroke diesel engine is the
most powerful and most efficient prime-mover in the world today. The Aioi Works of
Japan's Diesel United, Ltd built the first engines.

At maximum economy the engine exceeds 50% thermal efficiency. Even at its most
efficient power setting, the big 14 consumes 1,660 gallons of heavy fuel oil per hour.

(How much fuel is used to import things from China for stores like Wal-Mart, Kmart, etc and so on?)
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_much_fuel_does_a_large_diesel_cargo_ship_burn_at_cruising_speed_with_a_full_load_of_container_and_what_would_that_cruising_speed_be

According to Cunard executives, the company's QE2 averages 49 feet per gallon on the high seas.

http://cruises.lovetoknow.com/wiki/How_Much_Fuel_Does_a_Cruise_Ship_Use

Like to fly?

A small Cessna 172 needs about 8-10 gallons per hour. An Airbus A340 needs about 6000 kg (kilograms = 13200lbs) per hour.

http://www.blurtit.com/q3953734.html

W/the above:
As of February 8, 2007 2:20PM, there is a total of 5,549 non military flights in the United States alone.

flightaware.com
http://www.answerbag.com/q_view/129346

Helicopters:
9 to 16 gallons per hour.
http://kmease_5.tripod.com/faq2.html

Bottled water:

Combining all the energy input totals, Gleick and Cooley found that producing bottled water requires between 5.6 and 10.2 million joules of energy per liter, depending on transportation factors (a typical personal-sized water bottle is about 0.5 liters). That’s up to 2,000 times the energy required to produce tap water, which costs about 0.005 million joules per liter for treatment and distribution.

In 2007, US consumers purchased more than 33 billion liters of bottled water, or 110 liters (30 gallons) per person. The total energy required to produce 33 billion liters is equivalent to 32-54 million barrels of oil (although not all the energy used comes from oil). Energy to produce bottled water accounts for about one-third of one percent of total US energy consumption.

http://www.physorg.com/news156506896.html

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We don't need to tax drivers (many of whom are poor to lower middle class) by the mile, etc.

Ships are constantly crossing the oceans for things we could make at home. I see people drinking their bottled water (maybe we should tax the hell out of that) pretty much everywhere.

Want to reduce dependency on oil? Look at the bigger users of it - wars, planes, ships, products we don't need but want (How much fuel does that gadget for only 19.99 use? Need an apple peeler? Use a knife).

It's not so much the cars - it is what the people driving the cars are buying that is eating up fuel.

Typically, shipping via ocean from China to the US takes approximately 4-5 weeks (http://www.cypressindustries.com/faq_freight.html) One ship could burn a heckuva lot of fuel bringing you those toys for happy meals that could be made here in the US.

You want to crack down on people or change behaviors? Start at the top and bring jobs home. Less air/ship travel for those things you will throw away in a few days.

Big business though will jump on the "It's the fault of soccer moms and their big cars" all the while sending your job thousands of miles away and shipping what used to be made here back here.

[Arctic Dave]

1. Tax it all. If it needs fuel to run it is a luxury.

The sooner we pull our heads out of asses the sooner we can make the move to less consumption.

[The Straight Story]

2. Why tax? Why not change how things are done instead?

"Let's just tax something to control behavior" - yeah, real progressive like.

Who is going to be hurt the most by that? Do you live in a big city?

I drive 3.8 miles to work. When I was living out in the boondocks (almost said boobdocks) it was almost 50 miles to my job. Unlike some I was able to move (talking about my previous job). Even if I had a bike I would not ride it - Freeway here not good for that and it gets cold in the winter.

[Arctic Dave]

5. Use the taxes as a way to finance mass transit and energy efficiency

Has nothing to do with controlling behavior. If you think crying about the price of fuel now is helping what are you going to do as it gets higher? Should we start to subsidize people because they choose to live in the boonies?

As soon as we face the facts that our society as it is now is not sustainable the sooner we can position ourselves to the new reality.

[The Straight Story]

8. How about we use less fuel by being smarter?

Like I noted - produce more things locally.

Subsidize people in the boonies? You mean like people who live out in the country and used to be able to work there but jobs left them?

Families who live there and have small businesses to support farmers but not enough job for all the kids so they drive to get to work. Should they all just up and move and add to the urban sprawl we already have?

Go to Montana, or any other state like it and try that out. Where do you live? NY, LA, DC, Philly, Chicago?

Maybe you don't, but I often find people who live in big cities think every town should be just like them and all would be better. funny thing is country folks say the same things about city folks.

How about we just accept we are a diverse country and bring home the jobs and quit wasting tons of fuel shipping things here? Or do you just want to start with people at the bottom rung like politicians often do?

[Arctic Dave]

9. Producing things locally for how long? That might buy us an extra decade.

Petroleum is finite so we may as well start to adjust to the reality.

As for being smarter about fuel consumption how about we get rid of SUV's as commuter vehicle. Imagine how much fuel and resources we would save then. I can look out my door and I would say that 90% of SUVs and trucks are just to get to the grocery store when a fuel efficient vehicle would be just as effective.

[hedgehog]

7. What if the carbon tax went to fund more efficient transport?

For example - adding bike paths and even safe sidewalks in a lot of areas. How about plowing sidewalks and bike paths where ever the roads are plowed? I usually think that my area is too cold/too snowy for bicycles in the winter, but then I see people who can't afford a car riding every day of the year. (Fulton New York is recorded as getting 140 inches of snow/season)

What if LA had a bunch of rapid transit routes with something like Zip cars ready to rent at the stations?

I live in a semi-rural area next to a small city that has seen plant after plant close in the last 20 years. I've had to drive 30 or 40 miles to different jobs on the north side and south side of Syracuse. I understand the problem of being forced to drive long distances. On the other hand- there are many times after working a 12 hour overnight shift that I would have loved to take advantage of public transit.

Again - the proceeds from the carbon tax could go to research in alternate energy sources.

I am rather dubious about cap and trade, but a carbon tax would put the costs where they belong instead of spreading them evenly among everyone. One of those costs was the ozone covering my rural home during last week's heat wave. I have asthma, and I couldn't do much until the ozone lifted. I'd rather pay my carbon tax in cash instead of lung tissue.

[Turbineguy]

3. That Wartsila engine powered ship

will burn 250 tons per day and a crossing from China to the US west Coast will take 7 days or 1750 tons. The ship will carry 13,000 truckloads of goods. If there was a bridge across the Pacific, it would take trucks 21,800,000 gallons or 73,125 tons of (more expensive!) fuel to move that amount of cargo.

But your point is well taken.

But as long as we export jobs.... the strange thing of course is that the models were set up with oil prices around $20 per barrel so really, there is not much of an advantage, other than the inertia of not changing things back. And then there's looking at who would lose and gain from changing to a more well-run economy.

[The Straight Story]

4. Building that bridge would create some jobs

for about 1000 years :rofl:

And yeah, trucks are less efficient - but then there is this: When those things get to dock you need those trucks to distribute them anyway so the ship fuel is all over head when it is something you can make here ;)

[Turbineguy]

6. When I drive past the Boeing plant

I often see one or two Dreamlifters (modified 747s) for transporting 787 parts from China. They spent at least $250 million and who knows how much for operating costs and built a factory in China to save wages on employing Americans.

But they are stuck with it now.

I once worked for a company that saved money no matter how much it cost.

[dmallind]

10. Use all the big numbers you want - 60%+ of all oil is used for cars. NT