How common is police corruption and brutality?

[USArmyParatrooper]

On one side you have people claiming it's everything from an extreme problem to an epidemic. They post multiple stories and anecdotes to make their case.

On the other side you have people arguing that there are so many law enforcement officers interacting with the public, that the bad ones amount to a small minority.

So who's right? We all base our opinions largely on our personal experiences and knowledge.

Enter: Gallup

Q: "Please tell me how you would rate the honesty and ethical standards of people in these different fields -- very high, high, average, low, or very low?"

Police officers

Very High 17%

High 46%

Average 26%

Low 8%

Very Low: a whopping 2%

An extreme problem? An epidemic? It stands to reason that most adults have had many different interactions with the police for various reasons. If the problem is so wide sweeping, why do they score so high with the general public? I mean if all, half or even freaking ten percent of the interactions they encountered were bad, wouldn't they rate them low on the honesty and ethics standard? Hell, most people have gotten a few unpleasant traffic tickets here or there but they still score well overall.

[Cleobulus]

1. Wouldn't it depend on the reputation of the local PD as well?

For example I sure as hell don't want to get pulled over by the St. Louis County Police(beat downs happen), the St. Charles County Sheriff's department will pull you over for being black, so will the St. Charles City police, O'Fallon, St. Peters, etc. However the University City Police are excellent and professional.

Oh, and the St. Louis City Police will steal your car.

[USArmyParatrooper]

3. Sure it would

And I will concede that there are some departments that are better than others. But it is a national poll.

[Cleobulus]

6. That's true, but think about this, all these departments I mention are in the same metro area...

and they are the largest police departments in the area as well.

[USArmyParatrooper]

12. But here's the problem

Even IF I just assume your claim about those departments are valid, there are 800,000 law enforcement officers in the nation. How many do they comprise?

[Cleobulus]

24. Several thousand at least, I don't keep count, but they are in an area of about...

2-3 million people in the Metro Area. Sounds about right. The question is whether they are representative, probably, probably not. They aren't as bad as the LAPD of the 1990s or today, for which I'm grateful. But isn't that damning with faint praise?

[Tsiyu]

8. shhhh

don't tell the OP

(he lives in dreamyland where all the cops hand out lollipops and fairy wands)

[USArmyParatrooper]

Shhhhh

The adults are talking.

[Cleobulus]

10. So I shouldn't tell him that the Chief of Police's daughter in St. Louis...

drives around in a "legally" stolen car?

[Tsiyu]

15. GAWD no

You'd break his little heart!

And then, what if Mommy had no Cheetoes upstairs?

Damn, he might have to call the cops to taser her for her own good...

[USArmyParatrooper]

17. Are you referring to an impounded car put up for auction?

[Cleobulus]

18. Yes, what made it a scandal was that the previous owner did nothing wrong...

the police just up and stole it, and hundreds of others, for absolutely no reason, not even trumped up drug charges.

[USArmyParatrooper]

23. Do you have a link to this?

[Cleobulus]

26. Sure, here you go...

http://www.thenewspaper.com/news/24/2476.asp

First link about daughter, second link about the impounding:

http://www.assetrecoverywatch.com/ME2/dirmod.asp?sid=&nm=&type=MultiPublishing&mod=PublishingTitles&mid=6EECC0FE471F4CA995CE2A3E9A8E4207&tier=4&id=A066C64F39BF43EB8551D8EA78CF890D&AudID=47142E94B7FA404783E6F6AE89111098

[USArmyParatrooper]

40. Thanks

If the allegations are true, which I'm not doubting, that's a horrible breach of trust. Is the FBI and IRS investigation still going on?

[Cleobulus]

48. I believe so...

A lot of complaints, the St. Louis Post-Dispatch(the major newspaper here) ran an expose and interviewed victims, most of which were convicted of nothing, hell some of them had the cars taken from in front of their homes without their knowledge.

[anigbrowl]

2. your survey doesn't answer your question

Attitude does not define incidence. No string attitude about it myself, just pointing out the statistical pitfalls of your approach.

[USArmyParatrooper]

5. Attitude does not define incidence, true BUT

Incidences do shape attitudes.

[anigbrowl]

16. To a point. Strangely, Gallup's website says 36% think there is police brutality in their area

Your ~10% figure hasn't been true since the 1960s. Explain.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/19783/confidence-local-police-drops-10year-low.aspx

[USArmyParatrooper]

20. The 1960's? The poll is from 2009

"In there area" can mean a lot of things. I'm from the Bay Area CA and I consider everything from San Jose to San Francisco to be 'my area.'

If someone were to ask me if police brutality exists in my area I would say of course. Somewhere, someone has been brutalized by a police officer. Even where I live now, I'm sure somewhere in the surrounding area a case has happened. I still rate the profession "Average", personally.

[anigbrowl]

31. then the inference you draw turns out to be flawed

Because we have longitudinal data exactly responsive to the question. Splitting hairs over semantics doesn't alter the fact that the public considers police brutality 3-4 times more prevalent than you thought they did, based on a different survey.

[USArmyParatrooper]

33. Where do you get this from?

"the public considers police brutality 3-4 times more prevalent than you thought they did"

First of all saying "police brutality exists in my area" does NOT mean "police brutality is prevalent." ONE case of police brutality occurring in my general area warrants a "yes" answer.

Also from YOUR poll, "Fifty-six percent of Americans now say they have a great deal of respect for the police in their area."

[anigbrowl]

44. you don't understand the word prevalent

You inferred that the ~10% dissatisfaction with police reflected the incidence of police brutality/corruption. In fact >30% of people think it exists in their area. Thus, belief in police brutais more prevalent than you thought. It is a relative term, not an absolute or objective metric.

That a greater number of other people have a high degree of respect for police is irrelevant. The two results are not mutually exclusive.

[USArmyParatrooper]

45. I understand it perfectly

ONE single incident in your surrounding area warrants a "yes" answer. But then in most areas there are hundreds or thousands of police officers in the general vicinity.

[anigbrowl]

No, you don't.

Because you are refuting the proposition that people believe police brutality to be prevelant in their area, which nobody has suggested to be the case. What I am talking about is the prevalenxe of the opinion that it exists, not the prevalence of the phenomenon in police work.

You assumed that as only ~10% of people disliked the police, the incidence of bad police behavior must be low. This theory conflicts with other survey data. Therefore it needs to be revised: empirical data trumps a nice theory every time.

[USArmyParatrooper]

58. Existing =/= "Prevalent"

I'm stationed at Fort Bragg, NC. If ONE single cop needlessly punches a guy on Fort Bragg, Fayetteville, Hope Mills, or Raeford then police brutality EXISTS in my area. But that doesn't mean it's prevalent.

[anigbrowl]

72. wtf! how much simpler do i have to make this?

Prevalence of the OPINION among members of the public. If 25% of people think something is true, then that belief is prevalent among a quarter of the population.

You are stuck on stupid. The only person who thinks public opinion surveys reflect the actual incidence of police brutality in any quantitative fashion is you. You are disputing a claim that nobody else is making, like someone clinging to a bad OODA loop.

[Bonobo]

4. People with experience in polling know how easy it is to elicit the answer you want

depending on how you ask it.

Do your own poll here on DU.

Why is that you seem so quick to accept a gallup poll that firs into your own world view, but when DU expresses their opinion, you discount it as somehow "diseased" or "sick-minded"?

In other words, why do you discount the significance of what you see on DU?

I am not the only one saying police violence is a big problem, you know.

Most of DU thinks it is.

[USArmyParatrooper]

7. The question was posted verbatim

"Please tell me how you would rate the honesty and ethical standards of people in these different fields -- very high, high, average, low, or very low?"

Where is the fault in the wording of that question?

[Bonobo]

11. Not much. Perhaps I should have said, in this particular case, that

you can READ whatever you want in the results.

[USArmyParatrooper]

13. You can. OR you can simply "read" the facts

That 17% rate police officers "Very High" for honesty and ethics, 46% "High" and 26% "Average"

[Bonobo]

19. You seem unable to distinguish between "facts" and "interpretation".

You think "average" is good for people that hold your life in their hands?

[USArmyParatrooper]

22. I rate people in ALL professions as average

Because they're all human. I also consider the "average" person to be generally good.

[Bonobo]

25. You see, the "interpretation" thing comes in here again.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but I suspect many people would consider "average" to be too low for officers of the law.

To some people, "average" is not so great.

Interpretation VS. Facts...

[USArmyParatrooper]

28. How convenient

It stands to reason that very few people who have experienced police brutality or corruption would let them off with an "average" rating. Conveniently you move the bar so a middle of the road rating = a negative.

[Bonobo]

35. No, I am pointing out that MY view is different than yours. Thus "interpretation"

is different than your claim that this is a "fact".

[USArmyParatrooper]

37. Very well then

We'll just have to disagree about whether people who experienced police corruption and/or brutality would rate them "Average" for honesty and ethics.

[Bonobo]

38. Besides, you and I know that police brutality is a much bigger problem

in East L.A or the South Side of Chicago than it is in Beverly Hills or Wilmette.

Right? You know that, right?

[USArmyParatrooper]

46. I don't know for a fact, but it could be true.

And I already acknowledged that some departments are better than others. Some are likely downright horrible. Scientific surveys account for things like demographics and population densities.

[Bonobo]

50. If you don't admit it, you are in denial.

Your scientific survey includes people who deny evolution and think Jesus is about to descend to Earth to collect the true believer, leaving the rest of us in the dust, so forgive me for discounting their opinions about the true nature of police brutality in this country.

Line up with who you want to line up with. I, myself, will tend to trust the DU community's opinion over such folk.

[USArmyParatrooper]

54. I admit it's likely the case

I just don't state things as fact unless I know.

And are you really arguing if someone is not an atheist they won't hold a grudge against police officers after having bad experiences with them? Come on now.

[Bonobo]

56. Is that a "fact"?

USArmyParatrooper: "You can. OR you can simply "read" the facts. That 17% rate police officers "Very High" for honesty and ethics, 46% "High" and 26% "Average""

You don't show a particularly good ability to distinguish what constitutes "facts" in this case. :)

[USArmyParatrooper]

59. Uh, HELLO?

It is a FACT that the given percentages rated police officers accordingly.

[Bonobo]

62. Yes, but it is open to interpretation what it means. Those are not facts, pal.

Unless "facts" to you are something that are open to interpretation.

To my mind, facts are precisely the opposite of that.

[USArmyParatrooper]

64. What I stated as a fact

IS a fact, and that was how people rated police officers.

You claim to believe people who have been mistreated by cops, or had friends and/or family mistreated by cops would rate them "average" for honesty and ethics. I think that's ridiculous but neither of us can prove it either way.

[Bonobo]

66. No, the "fact" is that Gallup got those particular numbers, but...

It does not mean anything that we can agree on.

So the only "fact" on the table is that Gallup posted the results of a survey that is open wide to interpretation vis a vis the issue of whether or not people "respect" the morality of police.

[USArmyParatrooper]

68. "Wide open to interpretation"

In my opinion no reasonable person would suggest that someone who's had bad experiences with police officers, or have had family members or close friends mistreated by police officers would rate them "average"

NOTE: Of ALL 22 polled professions police officers scored 4th highest overall for Very High and High marks.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/1654/honesty-ethics-professions.aspx

31% rated Engineers as "average." I guess the public just has a thing against Engineers.

[grillo7]

51. Other factors can be at play as well...

Such as: who exactly was polled? How big was the sample size? What income demographics and race are represented? The treatment each one of these groups receives by the police may likely be different. how was the survey conducted? Phone or in-person polling could create a bias whereby the participants didn't want to seem "anti-police". Context is another factor. The questions prior to that could possibly skew the results. There is too little data from this single survey to make this sort of conclusion.

[USArmyParatrooper]

63. Sure, but it was a scientific survey conducted by Gallup

They're a prominent, reputable polling agency.

They ask questions verbatim from carefully constructed words, in this case: "Please tell me how you would rate the honesty and ethical standards of people in these different fields -- very high, high, average, low, or very low? First, ... Next, ... "

Also the survey wasn't about cops. They polled that question on 22 different occupations, ONE of which was police officers. I'm sure you can contact gallup, or hunt around their site to find the specifics on the sample size, demographics, etc.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/1654/honesty-ethics-professions.aspx

[flvegan]

9. No idea, but if I dial 911 I know who is coming.

Same as everyone else. Yeah, there are bad cops. Such a minority.

[Bonobo]

14. Trying again. Hopefully this won't give you the ability to ignore the main point.

Why is that you seem so quick to accept a gallup poll that fits into your own world view, but when DU expresses their opinion, you discount it as somehow "diseased" or "sick-minded"?

In other words, why do you discount the significance of what you see on DU?

I am not the only one saying police violence is a big problem, you know.

Most of DU thinks it is.

[USArmyParatrooper]

21. Who's DU? You? Me? Also...

Opinions on DU =/= a scientific national survey.

[Bonobo]

27. .

[USArmyParatrooper]

30. Great movie! Horrible point

You pointed to me "ignoring" the opinion of "DU"

DU isn't a single entity. We all have our own opinions. I also said I give credence to a scientific survey but not to anecdotes and opinions on a political forum.

[Bonobo]

34. As you know, a huge number of people on DU see US police

behavior as a problem.

You discount its significance as pointing to a real social problem even while you recognize that DU largely feels this way.

I am wondering why.

[USArmyParatrooper]

36. I wouldn't say "largely"

I posted a thread similar to the one posted earlier, showing cops doing good things. It received about a 50/50 split between recs and unrecs.

Also, a tiny sample of people who post on a left-wing political blog is a very narrow demographic. Do I really need to explain why I put way more credence in an actual scientific national survey? Really?

[Bonobo]

41. As I said, your survey is so open to interpretation as to be worthless

for the purposes you are trying to use it.

On the other hand, on DU, you can at least have a back and forth discussion to try to deepen your understanding of people's opinions.

In your poll, you only have that question being asked of strangers with no ability to cross-examine yourself.

So in a very real way, I think that talking at DU can give you a better idea of the reality.

Furthermore, since DU is skewed to white middle-class, you can further intuit that of it is a problem for many people here, it must be much more so for poorer, darker-skinned people.

[USArmyParatrooper]

47. So let me get this straight

You are actually trying to say that opinions on a left wing political blog are a better indication of the general public's opinion than a scientific survey?

Even you don't really believe that.

[Bonobo]

49. I don't see DU as a "left wing political blog" anymore.

I think the real "left wing" you have in your mind has been largely replaced by everyday centrist Democrats.

But to be fair, you are partially correct. There are a lof of unthinking yahoos that would have participated in your "scientific poll"" whose opinions I would tend to discount anyway.

After all, as someone pointed out, half of the US thinks that Jesus rode on dinosaurs and that evolution is just a "theory".

[USArmyParatrooper]

52. And as I pointed out

We've all had personal experience with police officers, as have everyone we're close to. Nobody has experienced the genesis of man. It remains a horrible analogy.


A side note, what do you consider "real" left wing? Do I have to give Obama low job approval ratings to be real left wing? What are the requirements?

[Bonobo]

55. Once again, you show your predilection for grasping parts of posts and moving into tangents.

You do this when you think you have a "Gotcha" scenario that you think you can win.

They usually are unrelated tangents that have nothing to do with the original point of what we are discussing.

[USArmyParatrooper]

65. I addressed everything in your post

Your "but they don't believe in evolution" rebuttal and your claim that this site is no longer left wing.

Did I miss something/

[Fumesucker]

29. About half of Americans don't believe in evolution..

A "survey" even a "scientific" one tells you nothing about the actual level of police corruption in the USA, it tells you of people's perceptions of police corruption which may or may not have much at all to do with the actual facts of the matter.

The fact that it is so rare for police misconduct to be proactively reported on by their fellow officers is telling I think, even if a given officer is not corrupt themselves they often engage in conspiracy of silence when they know of corruption within their department.

[USArmyParatrooper]

32. Horrible analogy

We all have had experiences and interactions with police officers.

Nobody on earth has experienced the genesis of mankind.

[LooseWilly]

67. Well, how many have had experiences with police officers braving the code of silence to testify?

http://articles.sfgate.com/2004-12-14/bay-area/17457672_1_excessive-force-jude-siapno-keith-batt

I've talked with dealers and thugs who were framed by the Riders. (Sure, they may or may not've been guilty of other things... but they were framed by cops, or their friends were... and then "put away".)

In Oakland, half the population has been convicted of some stupid shit or other. From my experiences of it, the cops couldn't've been right more than half the time with their arrests... and the convictions are likely the results of a dozen people who have heard the stories about Oakland, and can't conceive of the cops basically assuming shit, let alone DAs and their ilk doing the same.

The surveys you are citing in the OP basically reflect the percentages of the population that are 1) scared of the "bad people" in the news and are treated with respect and deference by the police, 2) occasionally hassled by the police, but in a non-invasive/humiliating fashion (the "average" results), 3) those who display some characteristic that catches the stereotyping eye of the police... brown skin, hooptie car, non-GAP clothes/shoes, accent, cash, whatever else it might be that tips cops off that they're not dealing with an upstanding suburbanite...

Ohh yeah, and the genesis of mankind is bullshit...that's why it's called a myth, like Krshna killing the cobras dropped in his crib by some Republican Asuras. And, like the PR image of the "to serve and protect" motto-execution of the police anywhere in the world... bullshit.

[USArmyParatrooper]

69. Where to begin with this.

Well, how many have had experiences with police officers braving the code of silence to testify?

Based on the poll results I would say not many. But then, that's the point.

I've talked with dealers and thugs who were framed by the Riders. (Sure, they may or may not've been guilty of other things... but they were framed by cops, or their friends were... and then "put away".)

In Oakland, half the population has been convicted of some stupid shit or other. From my experiences of it, the cops couldn't've been right more than half the time with their arrests... and the convictions are likely the results of a dozen people who have heard the stories about Oakland, and can't conceive of the cops basically assuming shit, let alone DAs and their ilk doing the same.

And if any of them were polled they would likely vote Low or Very Low.

The surveys you are citing in the OP basically reflect the percentages of the population that are 1) scared of the "bad people" in the news and are treated with respect and deference by the police, 2) occasionally hassled by the police, but in a non-invasive/humiliating fashion (the "average" results), 3) those who display some characteristic that catches the stereotyping eye of the police... brown skin, hooptie car, non-GAP clothes/shoes, accent, cash, whatever else it might be that tips cops off that they're not dealing with an upstanding suburbanite...

Really? Can you back this with anything or is it purely conjecture?

Ohh yeah, and the genesis of mankind is bullshit

You mean you and I don't exist? Genesis is an actual word with an actual meaning. The biblical reference pertains to the meaning of the word, not the other way around. Here, let me help you.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/genesis

1. The coming into being of something; the origin. See Synonyms at beginning.

[Fumesucker]

75. It's a measure of how a big portion of the American public believes in myth over fact..

I've had both very good interactions with police officers and horrible ones, indeed I had a high ranking officer in my own family through marriage until he passed away some years ago. The worst interaction I ever had with police was with members of the force he was part of although in fairness they were not part of his particular chain of command.

I had numerous conversations about police with my family member over the years, one thing he told me that stuck with me is that he thought that a lot of people shouldn't be cops for too long, that many people are changed for the worse by being cops and that those people should not stay in the force but that there was no way to make sure that they didn't stay.

[Morning Dew]

39. Let's say the polled public is right

and of 800,000 US law enforcement officers, 80,000 are flat out dishonest and unethical. That's 1600 per state. YIKES !

Add in another 200,000 who are sort of dishonest and kinda unethical and that's another 4000 per state.


It sounds like a culture that is ripe for corruption to me... how about you?

[Bonobo]

42. Yeah, ouch. nt

[USArmyParatrooper]

43. The average person is sort of "dishonest and kinda unethical"?

Also, there are many more dynamics involved than a 1 percent of Low replies = 1 percent of cops are bad.

If a police officer clubs me across the face and robs me I'm going to rate them low. But then so is my wife, my family, her family, and both of our close friends.

[Morning Dew]

57. By the same token

if your brother is a cop, you'll rate him high based on your good opinion of him. But then so will your wife, your family, her family, and both of your close friends.


Meanwhile, he's getting a low rating from the guy he clubbed across the face and robbed.

[USArmyParatrooper]

61. By that same token

His family may think he's an asshole.

And a bad cop likely isn't only going to mistreat one, single guy. So every single person he mistreats throughout his career, along with their friends and family....

[JVS]

53. Too common.

[chollybocker]

60. Cops policing cops.

Problematic.

[TheMadMonk]

70. Prevalence is less the issue, than the degree to which it is tollerated.

How often behaviour that would pretty much automatically rate a long jail term for we mere mortals is overlooked or minimised in police officers.
How often a disgraced officer can simply resign ahead of an internal investigation and take up a job in another jurisdiction.

What is the demographic spread of respondents to that poll? If the poor and/or minorities are underrepresented then I can already see one big problem. A 26% average rating isn't exactly something I'd crow about for a proffession where honesty and trustworthiness are required core attributes.

Procedural changes HAVE greatly altered police behaviour in a decidedly jackbooted direction: Official, like no knock warrants, reasonable susspicion searches and extending the border zone subject to customs inspection 200 miles inward from the borders; and unofficial, like using tasers for compliance rather than to subdue.

[TexasObserver]

71. Very common.

If it happens in 1% of police interactions or more (and it does), it happens too much.

It's unfortunate you can't recall the time when police didn't act like they own the town and could do anything they want to citizens.

[Th1onein]

73. How common is it? Look at this map, and you tell me....

http://www.injusticeeverywhere.com/?p=1569

Shooting and killing people sleeping on couches, mistaking Coke cans for guns....just how "common" does it have to be before it's "common" enough for you to say that something must be done about it?

On edit: Judging by this map, I'd say it's not "common," it's EPIDEMIC.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

74. This needs its own thread. Stunning.

[surrealAmerican]

76. That's an opinion poll.

What you would need to answer the question in your post would be actual data. Unfortunately police departments tend to hide evidence of corruption and brutality, so we can't answer that question.

[hobbit709]

77. Personally, 90% of the officers I've dealt with were good cops.

But I've run into some bad ones. The problem is not only that they are bad cops but in some cases their misdeeds are covered up for years by their fellow officers and higher ups.
Protecting their own does not make the rest of the profession look good, whether it's the police, incompetent doctors or crooked lawyers.