Nicolas Sarkozy is an asshole...end of discussion.

[joeybee12]

SAINT OUEN, France – French President Nicolas Sarkozy on Wednesday ordered authorities to expel Gypsy illegal immigrants and dismantle their camps, amid accusations that his government is acting racist in its treatment of the group known as Roma.

Sarkozy called a government meeting Wednesday after Gypsies clashed with police this month following the shooting death of a youth fleeing officers in the Loire Valley.

Sarkozy said those responsible for the clashes would be "severely punished" and ordered the government to expel all illegal Roma immigrants, almost all of whom have come from eastern Europe.

He pushed for a change in France's immigration law to make such expulsion easier "for reasons of public order." He said illegal Gypsy camps "will be systematically evacuated," calling them sources of trafficking, exploitation of children and prostitution.

The language has chilling undertones in a country where authorities rounded up Gypsies and sent them to concentration camps during the Nazi occupation in World War II. Former President Jacques Chirac, the first French leader to acknowledge the state's role in the Holocaust, condemned "the Nazi madness that wanted to eliminate the Gypsies."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100728/ap_on_re_eu/eu_france_angry_roma

[Ken Burch]

1. Were you assuming someone here would disagree with you?

(never mind...we have some crazy right-wing types here who WOULD back the Sarkster on this.)

Thanks for telling us about this, though. We need as much evidence as possible that Sarkozy is NOT the sort of "model statesman" the U.S. should encourage to come to power in Europe.

[joeybee12]

2. There are quiet un-reccer's amongst us! n/t

[Ken Burch]

3. The people who'd "unrec" this thread are the moral successors

To the ones who lived next door to Dachau and said "we didn't know".

[joeybee12]

6. Right after i responded to yours, I noticed this go down in rec's...

...see what i mean?

[Ken Burch]

8. Now it's up, though.

n/t.

[NNN0LHI]

4. France should understand "collective punishment" is wrong

This guy is pond scum.

Don

[Ken Burch]

7. You'd think that Sarko would at least remember what France did to "outsiders" during World War II

Most of them ended up on the slow train East.

[kenny blankenship]

18. Sometimes, the former outgroup likes to put a bit of stick about when they become an ingroup

N. Sarkozy, as President of France would indeed do well to remember the criminal acts perpetrated against those "not as completely French as us" during the Vichy regime. He would do well to remember how the world thinks of the actions of the French govt in enthusiastically deporting Jews to concentration camps -- both Jewish refugees from other countries and French Jews, too. But as the descendant of Hungarian Jews, no doubt he remembers it all the time. However, the shoe --or shiny boot-- is on the other foot now, his foot. And he likes to kick with it. Kicking at others not as French as us has served Sarkozy extremely well in his career. As interior minister, he instigated police confrontation with Muslim youth in the outskirts of Paris. He did his best as Minister to polarize a tense racial/religious situation and to help drive it to the point of violent street confrontations. Then he had the police crack some Muslim skulls, et voilà, Sarko becomes the very next President of France. In attacking Roma camps he would only be revisiting his own preferred and proven political tactics.

[Ken Burch]

20. Well, the "old out-group sticking it to the NEW out-group" is nothing new.

Ask any Chicano trying to make a living as a farmworker in California's Central Valley how the descendants of the "Okies"(who'd gotten it just as bad in the Thirties)treated them.

Or just ask any Palestinian.

Suffering doesn't always ennoble. Sometimes, it just leaves scars and infections.

[mix]

5. I loathe Sarkozy. This is precisely what he's about politically. nt

[Name removed]

9. Deleted message

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[Ken Burch]

10. Dare I ask who you HEARD this from?

...or at least where you heard the "for good reason" part?

That sickening phrase was used for OTHER groups in European history, and just as cynically.

[quinnox]

12. I talked to a guy who lived over there

and what I said is not all that controversial, its basically a common knowledge.

[Ken Burch]

21. You have no idea what you sound like...

But I'll tell you...

You sound EXACTLY like most of the people who would've attended German-American Bund rallies in the late 1930's. They were talking about ANOTHER group...and they also used the "common knowledge" line.

And thanks to the, the hundreds of thousands, possibly millions, of people from that group who begged this country for sanctuary from Hitler were kept out...and left to be slaughtered.

Please be a better person than that. Please learn from history.

[joeybee12]

25. See what I mean? You WOULD think this isn't controversial or up for discussion...BUT

:eyes:

[blondeatlast]

27. Kinda disturbing, isn't it? nt

[joeybee12]

30. It is, but sadly not surprising...n/t

[Leopolds Ghost]

13. I hear many of the same people who hate Gypsies also rag on Jews and Muslims.

Lots of anti-Semitism in Europe against anyone of Middle Eastern descent, sadly.

They have turned the Jewish ghettos into tourist meccas with no Jews actually being allowed to return to those neighborhoods after the war, complete with synagogues turned into museums (like the Hagia Sophia was turned into a museum, and the Greeks are fairly upset about that), but people interviewed for a Nat Geo article were indifferent to the notion of Jews actually returning. Did you know there were actual pogroms all across Europe directed at Jews returning from the Holocaust? Mayors would have Jews returning to claim their belongings or move back to a farm squatted by neighbors lynched.

[WinkyDink]

14. Roma, not "Gypsies." And not Semites or of Middle-Eastern descent.

They are Indian:

http://www.romani.org/

[Ken Burch]

28. Although, oddly enough, the term "Gypsy" came from the mistaken belief

that they had arrived in Europe from Egypt.

The real issue is not being fair-skinned and "Christian". Also not being uptight, suburban and conformist. Sound familiar?

[blondeatlast]

23. You hear what I heard when I was there a few years ago.

Bring up the Gypsies and shortly thereafter was talk about Jews and Muslims.

Anyone who thinks that there isn't bigotry and hatred in Europe hasn't been there or only done the pretty Disneyland style tours. My son was once mistaken for a Gypsy (he's half Asian Indian, half Anglo). We made damn sure he never got separated from us again on that trip.

He was all of one shop down, my ex was on his way there.

[TheKentuckian]

17. A race or culture is hated for good reasons?

Do elaborate. I have to admit to an automatic revulsion at corruption of blood type judgments.

[blondeatlast]

24. "...for good reason"? There is NO good reason to hate an entire race, culture, or ethnicity.

None whatsoever.

[uppityperson]

What good reasons? Beyond "basically a common knowledge"?

What are the good reasons for hating Roma?

[Name removed]

32. Deleted message

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[joeybee12]

35. Replace gypies with Mexicans and Europe with Arizona in your sentence...

...and tell me how it sounds.

[Ken Burch]

36. You really need to stop basing your opinions just on what you "heard"

There are ALWAYS people spreading shit like what you've "heard" because they always want somebody not like them turned into a lampshade.

[uppityperson]

37. Are you saying people who hate them feel they do so for a good reason, or that

you feel hating them because everyone else does is a good reason? I am trying to figure out if "for good reason" is what you think or what someone told you about how they feel.

They are considered travelers, squatters, itinerant people by the few French people I know. One rural man who has lived in the same area most of his 75 yrs hates them quite a bit. Other people who have been out and about in the world more distrust them but do not hate them.

Edited to add that "gypsy" is considered offensive, rather like "n" is. Roma, Romani is their name.

[quinnox]

38. More the first part

People who hate them feel they do so for a good reason. Like I said, never been to Europe so I'm at a distance from this, but yea, if I had a group of people, who were camping out with farm animals who everyone knows are messy and need to be cleaned up after or it stinks bad, and stealing things from citizens in the area I can understand how people would come to hate them.

[Ken Burch]

39. "people who were camping out with farm animals"?

So you'd hate THESE people:

[uppityperson]

41. Or people like this blogger...

http://thebikeshow.net/summer-antics-cycle-camping-in-france/

Nice photos at the link also

Day 1: Bayonne Airport – St. Jean de Luz – Ascain – Sare – Cherchebruit – Col de Pinodieta – Esplette – Itxassou – Pas de Roland (outstanding swimming spot). Camped in a field. 45km
(clip)
Day 8: Castillon-en-Couresans – St. Girons – Massat (fabulous lunch at L’Hotel le Globe) – Col de Port – Tarascon – Appy. Camped in field, with donkeys. 102km
(clip)
Day 16: Pradelles – La Monastier-sur-Gazeille – Le Puy-en-Velay – Vorey – Retournac – Craponne-sur-Arzon – Cheyrac – St Victor-sur-Arlanc – Piers – Bonneval – La Chaise Dieu. Camped in a field with wild boar. 156km

[uppityperson]

40. Thank you but wow. That is quite an extrapolation.

"if I had a group of people, who were camping out with farm animals who everyone knows are messy and need to be cleaned up after or it stinks bad, and stealing things from citizens in the area"

I've spent a bit of time in rural France visiting family. The Roma I've seen there either have campers, or car camp. Rather like the rest of people camping. However, I've seen them not in official campgrounds but rather alongside the road. Rather like people I've seen bicycling and camping.

I don't know of any "camping out with farm animals", neither seen nor heard of.

"everyone knows" farm animals are "messy and need to be cleaned up after or it stinks bad"? So do pets that we probably most all have. So do you. If you don't wipe after you poop, don't bathe on occasion, you too will "stink bad". Rather like those bicyclists camping in fields and farmyards.

I don't know of Roma stealing things from citizens in the area, but was accosted by one while in Paris. Also was entertained on the train by a Romani man playing top-pop music from the 70's on an accordion for tips.

It sounds like fear of those who are different, who live differently, though I am sure some steal (like some residents do).

[blondeatlast]

42. Post back when you trip over a fact, please.

You know all this for a fact but you've never been to Europe. Righty-o. Oh, and I've seen some of your posts about border issues too.

[Ken Burch]

43. I'm thinking Quinnox likes his pizza with bratwurst.

n/t.

[blondeatlast]

44. But definitely no anchovies--someone might have slept with it!

:rofl:

[quinnox]

45. You are right about that

I hate anchovies, tried them for the first time the other day.

[blondeatlast]

47. I'd avoid pork products if I were you--same reason. nt

[Ken Burch]

50. And, to slightly paraphrase what "Rick" said to Major Strasser in "Casablanca"

"Well, there are certain sections of New York...that I wouldn't advise you to try to invade."

(today, with a person who holds Quinnox's views...that would be MOST sections of New York).

[blondeatlast]

54. Whew! He resides in Portland.

I was almost scared for him for a moment. :rofl:

[Name removed]

48. Deleted message

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[Ken Burch]

51. enjoy your pizza.

n/t.

[joeybee12]

52. Well, welcome to DU Andrew Breitbart!!!!! n/t

[Hydra]

11. He always has been

I could never figure out how he got elected, frankly. He and the Neocons and DLCers get along famously.

[pschoeb]

15. This is fairly ironic since his father was stateless person living in France

until the 1970's, he had lived there since 1948. The Roma fleeing from racist Kosovo, or racist Romania or Bulgaria where they are often not considered really citizens either. So they are just as stateless as Sarkozy's father who did not want to return to communist Hungary.

[surrealAmerican]

16. What's th EU position on this?

... and where does he plan on sending these people?

[Ken Burch]

22. Back to Eastern Europe to be slaughtered, of course.

n/t.

[KamaAina]

19. Isn't there a job for him in Arizona?

Or better still, maybe we could send Jan Brewer and Russell Pearce to France. :P

[blondeatlast]

26. If you send Joe Arpaio, this Arizonan is all for it.

Please, please, KA--how can we make this unholy union happen?

[joeybee12]

29. Interestingly, assholes like Brewer probably were the loudest critics of France

when they were against our illegal invasion and occupation of Iraq...she and he have a lot in common.

[blondeatlast]

31. Good point. She was SoS then, if I recall. I can't recall any specific comments she made,

but I imagine she would have condemned them.

[joeybee12]

33. I'm sure of it...she probably stopped eating French Toast, too...n/t

[Ross K]

34. Buuuuuuuuuuut isn't he the French leader we WANTED?

:sarcasm:

[Name removed]

46. Deleted message

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[blondeatlast]

49. Hey. Spiffy username--very original. nt

[joeybee12]

53. Hey, give Andrew Breitbart a break...busy week and he couldn't come up with a better name! n.t

[blondeatlast]

55. So true, so true!

:rofl:

[joeybee12]

58. Aw, but he's already gone!

And we were all becoming such good friends so quickly!!!!

[blondeatlast]

61. And I really turned on the charm for him--even carefully edited my post! nt

[political_Dem]

56. Being a person of color, it is easy to see the dual sides of people when it comes to race.

So, if Sarkozy is willing to put his foot down on the Roma in his country, he'll do the same against anyone who isn't white. That is what makes me sad. That is why white privilege is important to discuss. I don't think the dominant culture will ever understand the gravity of this law as well as SB 1070 until they wake up dark-skinned and have to navigate all corners of the globe in such a manner. :(

[blondeatlast]

57. My own experience (I'm a WASP with a hint of Catholic background)--had

parents who supported the civil rights movement, raised as hate-free as possible, but no, I had no idea what it was like until I fell in love with an Asian Indian and he with me.

Needless to say, it was a real awakening, mostly for me, but I was the subject of much derision from SOME (not all) of the local Indian culture. The disconnect is very real and there is really no way, short of experiences like mine, to really overcome it. We're divorced now and he works in the Czech Republic and he has it much worse over there. Our son spent the summer with him--and he has been mistaken for a Gypsy.

There is simply no way to describe what it is like to be on the receiving end--I didn't understand until confronted with his culture and my experience was unpleasant but fairly tame.

I've lived in Arizona for virtually my entire life and loved it--but I've just about had it. If this legislated hate stands, Im out of here. I've spent too many tears already, I can't spare any more.

Arizona has legislated hate. Vile.

[political_Dem]

59. Thank you for understanding. :)

Laws like the ones in France and Arizona have always frustrated me because the people who are in support of them don't understand their impact on people of color. That is why I am always appreciative of those who use their experiences as a way to fight injustice whereever they go. It gives me hope that there are people who actually care enough to truly build a world that is based on true equality for everyone.

I am very sorry that anyone has to face discrimination for who they are. Understanding why these laws are wrong is very important so we don't go back in time and repeat the atrocities of the past.

[entanglement]

62. There has been an upsurge in far-right and fascist activity in Europe

It is actually worse over there in some ways because immigrants, refugees, Roma, Jews (formerly) have historically been targets of violence and scapegoats there during recessions. Even so-called "mainstream" European politicians of all persuasions regularly vituperate and rage against them using language that would make a Republican blush. We don't hear much of it here because the English language versions are censored.

[entanglement]

60. Sarkozy is a thug. Whipping up hatred against the Roma, Muslims and so on helps him divert

attention from the enormous economic problems (recession and unemployment) facing France.

[joeybee12]

63. Scapegoating is always a popular tactic when leaders are incompetent...

just ask Jan Brewer.