Is there a way to get the "OMG Sharia Law" nitwits to understand what they are against?

[jberryhill]

The "OMG we gotta stop Sharia" folks are the same ones who want to stick "The Ten Commandments" everywhere.

Are they really too utterly dumb to realize that they are talking about, at root, the same thing?

Am I the only one who sees the disconnect there?

I don't see them running around with a bee in their bonnet about Halacha, which is the parallel body of Jewish law also stemming from the Ten Commandments.

"Sharia" is not some specific set of rules, and interpretations vary from place to place. It is a system of reasoning that is as worth getting excited over as are Talmudic arguments or Christian exegesis.

[JVS]

1. OMG we gotta stop Halacha and this exegesis stuff!!!

;-)

[Edweird]

2. It wouldn't bother me a bit if both groups faded into obscurity.

[RoseMead]

3. Exactly! n/t

[cleanhippie]

4. No, you are not the only one that is confused.

But then again, the christians in this country that push their religion onto the rest of us are the ones that say this is a "christian nation", blah blah blah, and cannot see the hypocrisy in both their actions and words. Disgusting!

[Ruby the Liberal]

5. There is more to it than that.

Sharia holds that a woman is half of a man and that a woman (or young girl) can be stoned if they are raped.

Sharia is draconian at its core and should be shunned by a free and sane society.

[hobbit709]

6. the nutjobs that want biblica(O.T.)l law are little different in their views.

They would bring back stoning, etc. if they could.

[Ruby the Liberal]

7. I have never heard of that group.

I do know Iranians who want Sharia OUT of their country though.

[jberryhill]

9. Sarah Palin: American Law Should Be 'Based On The God Of The Bible And The Ten Commandments'

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/05/10/sarah-palin-american-law_n_569922.html


You never heard of Sarah Palin?

Hello... McFly...

Sharia IS a system of law based on the Ten Commandments.

You know, Deuteronomy and Leviticus add quite a bit of more oomph to those commandments these nitwits are always on about.

[Ruby the Liberal]

14. No need to snark. Show me another legal system that stones rape victims

Sharia is a serious human rights issue, and you minimize the tragedy of it with your words.

[jberryhill]

15. I just did

Biblical law requires the same damned thing.

"Sharia" is a system of legal reasoning. Where it comes out is dead bang wrong in those places that do that sort of thing. You will find as many "Sharia" scholars who come out to a completely different conclusion.

But ALL of them say it comes from the Ten Commandments.

[bring_em_home_bush]

26. Most of these "Sharia Law!!!!111!!!" nutzoids have never actually read the Bible

It's full of hate for women, killing entire populations down to the last baby, lots of gruesome stuff.

Not to mention that little story about Jesus stopping the stoning of a woman with the whole, "he who is without sin among you cast the first stone" thing.

[Progressive_In_NC]

48. Please don't lie about biblical law just to make a point

But if out in the country a man happens to meet a girl pledged to be married and rapes her, only the man who has done this shall die. Do nothing to the girl; she has committed no sin deserving death. This case is like that of someone who attacks and murders his neighbor, for the man found the girl out in the country, and though the betrothed girl screamed, there was no one to rescue her. (Deuteronomy 22:25-27)


If a man meets a virgin who is not betrothed, and seizes her and lies with her, and they are found, 29then the man who lay with her shall give to the father of the young woman fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife, because he has violated her. He may not divorce her all his days. (Deuteronomy 22:28-29)


Now it's not exactly progressive, but it is far different from burying the victim in the ground up to her neck and letting the community throw stones at her head. That is Sharia Law at it's finest, and that has happened in the last five years! Disgusting.

[bring_em_home_bush]

50. I didn't tell any "lies" about "Biblical law"

Several other illustrative quotes have been posted in this thread from the same sources you cherry-picked to find something that you seem to think is "progressive."

I said the Bible is full of death, hate, and genocide. And it is.


Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt. Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass." (I Samuel 15:2-3)

"And he smote the men of Bethshemesh, because they had looked into the ark of the LORD, even he smote of the people fifty thousand and threescore and ten men: and the people lamented, because the LORD had smitten many of the people with a great slaughter." (I Samuel 6:19)

And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death; because he hath spoken to turn you away from the LORD your God..." (Deuteronomy 13: 5)

"If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers;" (Deuteronomy 13: 6)

"Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him: But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people." (Deuteronomy 13:8-9)

"Thou shalt surely smite the inhabitants of that city with the edge of the sword, destroying it utterly, and all that is therein, and the cattle thereof, with the edge of the sword." (Deuteronomy 13:15)

[donco6]

52. Wait a fucking minute there.

You had to PURPOSELY skip the verse before to get to that:

23 If a man happens to meet in a town a virgin pledged to be married and he sleeps with her, 24 you shall take both of them to the gate of that town and stone them to death—the girl because she was in a town and did not scream for help, and the man because he violated another man's wife. You must purge the evil from among you.

Shame on you.

[bring_em_home_bush]

53. gosh, surely nobody would actually LIE about "Biblical Law???"

cause then they are going straight to hell, oh noes!!!

:rofl:

[Hugabear]

40. Do a Google search for Christian Reconstructionism and Dominionism

You'll be shocked at what you find.

Islam doesn't have a monopoly on bat-shit extremists who want to impose their view of religion on everyone.

[bring_em_home_bush]

51. I think there is a Bible quote for this, something about mote, beams, eyes, etc.

Thanks for mentioning Christian Reconstructionism and Dominionism. Sad how so many people are frothing about "Sharia Law" in countries thousands of miles away and haven't a clue about this very dangerous Christianist movement here in the U.S.

[jberryhill]

8. Yes, so does Deuteronomy 22:23-24... your point?

Once again, different schools of thought come to different conclusions about Sharia, Halacha, and every other system of legal reasoning.

As a system of thought "Sharia" is no more draconian than anything in "Jewish Law" or "Christian Law", because it is THE SAME STUFF.

Leviticus declares it to be an abomination for a woman to have sex during her period.

We're going to need a whole lot more stones if these "Back to God's law" folks gain traction.

I think you misunderstand my point. The "We need the Ten Commandments" folks are the LAST ones who should be criticizing "Sharia".

[Ruby the Liberal]

12. I refer you to the Iranian Green Revolution

If there are Christians out there calling for stoning rape victims, I'd love to see the evidence.

Sharia law costs the innocent their lives. You minimize what is a human rights crisis.

[jberryhill]

17. I gave you the passage

WTF do you think Christians WANT when they say our laws should be based on the Bible?

You can pretend all you want. The thing you deplore is what Christians want to happen here.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Deuteronomy+22&version=NIV

13 If a man takes a wife and, after lying with her, dislikes her 14 and slanders her and gives her a bad name, saying, "I married this woman, but when I approached her, I did not find proof of her virginity," 15 then the girl's father and mother shall bring proof that she was a virgin to the town elders at the gate. 16 The girl's father will say to the elders, "I gave my daughter in marriage to this man, but he dislikes her. 17 Now he has slandered her and said, 'I did not find your daughter to be a virgin.' But here is the proof of my daughter's virginity." Then her parents shall display the cloth before the elders of the town, 18 and the elders shall take the man and punish him. 19 They shall fine him a hundred shekels of silver and give them to the girl's father, because this man has given an Israelite virgin a bad name. She shall continue to be his wife; he must not divorce her as long as he lives.

20 If, however, the charge is true and no proof of the girl's virginity can be found, 21 she shall be brought to the door of her father's house and there the men of her town shall stone her to death. She has done a disgraceful thing in Israel by being promiscuous while still in her father's house. You must purge the evil from among you.

22 If a man is found sleeping with another man's wife, both the man who slept with her and the woman must die. You must purge the evil from Israel.

23 If a man happens to meet in a town a virgin pledged to be married and he sleeps with her, 24 you shall take both of them to the gate of that town and stone them to death—the girl because she was in a town and did not scream for help, and the man because he violated another man's wife. You must purge the evil from among you.

[The Straight Story]

47. That is OT Jewish law, Christians follow the NT

:)

[Dogtown]

10. Christianity loves stoning, but

they prefer burning their victims.

[hobbit709]

11. In the forests of Europe, firewood was more available

Out in the desert, there's more rocks. Adapting their laws to the local geographics.

[jberryhill]

13. LOL... like Muslims above the Arctic Circle during Ramadan

A buddy of mine was on a project in Sweden during Ramadan, and there were a few muslims working with the company.

Ramadan came along, and they realized that if you can't eat until after sunset, and the sun isn't going to go below the horizon all month, then you have a real problem on your hands.

They all put in calls to their imams and the consensus view was "pick 12 hours and call it daytime".

[Solomon]

23. LOL If you wrote it in a novel nobody would buy it

:rofl:

[harun]

18. Would that be what they define as "Sharia" in Morroco?

Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Turkey, Singapore, Southern Philippines, Tajikistan?

You'd get different answers from all of them and then different answers from the legal experts in each of them.

Your just repeating the Fox News scare everyone talking points.

[jberryhill]

20. Bingo

Instead of "Sharia", you might just as well use the word "law".

[MAcciard]

16. Sorry, John But it is NOT the same thing...

The ten commandments are a series of moral imperatives; don't steal, lie, covet, etc.

Sharia law, as Europe is finding, is LAW! The moral religious imperatives of their faith are bound up with criminal penalties for transgression.

When I was a kid, and Mom took me to Mass. on Sat. I had to say a couple of Our Fathers, a couple of Hail Mary's, and a couple of Acts of Contrition. And God forgives( so we are taught in church)

Pretty, easy! Tell God you are sorry, and mean it, and all is forgiven!

Sharia imposes actual penalties upon the congregant for transgressing.

And do you really want ANY court consulting religious law rather than the Constitution?

[jberryhill]

19. No court is consulting religious law

But I certainly hear the Christians clamoring for the Bible to be used as it.

If you think the Bible doesn't call for penalties for violations, I want what you are smoking.

None of these Christians are saying, "Oh, we should have a system of law where people say they are sorry and forgive them."

They want Leviticus used as law. What we call "The Ten Commandments" are simply plucked from the deuterocanonical law, and Catholics and Protestants don't even agree on the order and numbering. They do indeed call for penalties. You should read the entire books of Deuteronomy and Leviticus to understand what these folks want here.

Christ was crucified by folks following "Biblical law".

[MAcciard]

30. WOW, have we atrayed here...

I never said it WAs being consulted in Court. I took your OP reference to the "OMG we have to stop sharia" crowd to be a reference to the Oklahoma bill. Correct me if I was wrong.

As for the difference between the two, the Ten Commandments, even though biblical, are also Moral, and are reflected in US Law, ie: Laws against Murder, rape, incest, adultry, lying under oath, theft, false witness, and originally in the US there were Sunday BLue laws.

Sharia imposes penalties not for violating the US secular law, but for violating the Islamic precepts. This would be like you being prosecuted by the state, not for violating state law, but for transgressing the Bible.

Here are some of the penalties of Sharia Law;

1. Islam commands that drinkers and gamblers should be whipped. Sura 5:90-91.

2. Islam allows husbands to beat their wives. Qur’an, 4:34

3. Islam allows an injured plaintiff to exact legal revenge, physical eye for physical eye. Qur’an, 5:45

4. Islam commands that a male and female thief must have a hand cut off. Qur’an, 5:38

5. Islam commands that highway robbers should be crucified or mutilated. Qur’an, 5:33. As an alternative, the convicted may have a hand and the opposite foot cut off while being banished from the land instead of crucifixion.

6. Islam commands that Homosexuals be executed. Abdu Dawud no. 447. Burning to death, stoned while against a wall, or stoned and thrown over a cliff.

7. Islam orders unmarried fornicators to be whipped and adulterers to be stoned to death. Qur’an, 24-6

8. Islam orders death for Muslim and possible death for non—Muslim critics of Muhammad and the Quran and even sharia itself.

9. Islam orders apostates to be killed. Sura 9:11-12

Is there really an objective comparison?

[bring_em_home_bush]

25. LInks, citations, to anything that Europe is finding out about this scary "LAW!!1111!"

Specific examples. Evidence. Actual people.

Otherwise, your post is utter shite.

[MAcciard]

31. try these...

http://www.hudson-ny.org/368/sharias-inroads-in-europe-italian-court-beaten-up-for-her-own-good

http://brain-terminal.com/posts/2007/03/23/the-multicultural-endgame-sharia-law-rules-europe

http://eupolitics.einnews.com/news/sharia-law-europe

http://www.uncoverage.net/2010/06/sharia-law-creeping-into-american-cities-and-europe/

http://www.asianews.it/index.php?l=en&art=11478

http://www.neurope.eu/articles/83048.php

http://www.europe-solidaire.org/spip.php?article17829

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/4226758.stm

[bring_em_home_bush]

32. thanks for the links, but I'll skip all the rightwing BS from the Hudson Org, etc.,

Okay, from the bbc.link:

Islamic law could be used to settle civil and marital disputes under a proposal made by former Ontario Attorney General Marion Boyd.

Roman Catholic and Jewish arbitration tribunals already operate (in) Ontario.

Oh, now I agree. Abolish all such religious tribunals IMMEDIATELY111!!!!1

[jberryhill]

34. That's what folks like him don't seem to get...

First, if you and I sign a contract, then that contract is law between us.

Second, if a kid is put into a diversion program for an offense, agrees to take 200 hours community service, and his church has a neighborhood cleanup program then, yep, not only can he do church work for the community service, but the church gets to decide whether he did it.

That kind of thing is normal in a lot of places. But when it is Muslims, its "OMG SHARIA!"

[bring_em_home_bush]

35. Yes, exactly

thank you. Your example is just perfect.

[MAcciard]

43. NOPE! not at all...

you either didnt read the stories, or the examples and quranic quotes regarding sharia law. You are discussing a secular court system imposing a punishment for a transgression of State criminal law, and allowing a person to serve out their sentence in a community service program run by a church. You went to quite q stretch to create a straw man argument that does not relate to what sharia law is.

[MAcciard]

42. I dont know any of the sources politics, but

I can read the stories regardless of the political philosophy of the reporter, and wean out the truth from the spin.

[BakedAtAMileHigh]

21. I love that your only two interpretations are islam + xtianity

Some of us see in 3-d, you know. Welcome to the evolutionary ladder.

And yeah, I know exactly what Shariah is; I don't need you to "explain": it to me.

:eyes:

[jberryhill]

22. My point is about people who don't see the disconnect between....

What they say they want, and what they say they don't want.

It amuses me no end to see these Christians calling for "Biblical law" and railing against Sharia.

It comes from the exact same place.

And it usually ends up with a lot of people dead.

[Solomon]

24. LOL I admire your patience.

But trying to get some people to see the point is akin to trying to explain to fundies that they are no different than that other religion which claims they're god is the one true god. Who's to say which God is greater? "There's only one God" they say. LOL

[jberryhill]

29. There's an even weirder take to that

You'll get Christians to argue all day that "Our God and Allah are not the same God"

Now, logically, I'm trying to figure out how you can have two groups of people saying:

"There is only one God. That God is omnipotent and omnipresent."

...and this is somehow NOT the same entity?

The only thing I can figure is that a lot of Christians pray once a week, and the Muslims pray five times a day. By that measure, it's a no-brainer who this God probably gets along with better.

[Solomon]

33. LOL

One of my favorite ones is this one: "They shouldn't have taken prayers out of the schools." Me: Well suppose your teacher required the class to pray to Allah, if you were a student, would you pray with the class? Them: "Of course not, I'm a Christian". They say this without the slightest acknowledgement that while they wouldn't dare be forced to pray to a God they don't believe in, they think it perfectly okay to force others to do so.

[Karenina]

49. Naaa, Duuuu!!!!

Sehr lang nicht gesehen! :hug: Boyfriend, folks be getting nuttier by the day. Exactly WHO is going to impose Sharia on Amerikkka? The Manchurian Kenyan? :rofl: How 'bout that "desecration" of Ground Zero, eh? I see it all as a simple effort to demonize all deemed non-white, to rally the forces and power of the dominant with the battle cry, "Their very presence among us is an existential threat!!!" ;-)

It is truly a sight to behold! :wow::wow::wow:

[WinkyDink]

27. Some of us are anti-both, just so you know about that brush you're painting with.

[jberryhill]

28. My brush din't get anywhere near you...

My point is about the freakazoids in Temecula, CA and Murfreesboro, TN who think that in Christian America, it should be illegal to build a mosque.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/Media/oklahoma-pass-laws-prohibiting-islamic-sharia-laws-apply/story?id=10908521


Islamic Sharia Law to Be Banned in, ah, Oklahoma
Oklahoma Calls Ban on Islamic Law a 'Preemptive Strike'
....

The amendment -- which also would forbid judges from using international laws as a basis for decisions -- will now be put before Oklahoma's voters in November. Approval is expected.


Okay, so I really don't remember Moses and Mount Sinai being in Tulsa, but, whatever...

[WinkyDink]

39. Well, okay, then. Because I think posting the 10 Commandments is monumentally stupid.

Of course, if the RW legislators want to give up their coveting, I'm for that.
And instead of raising the retirement age for SS, they could honor their fathers and mothers.
The one about bearing false witness? Yeah, they might have a problem with that one.

Hey--let's post'em! :-)

[BootinUp]

36. Not sure what this is all about really. Be glad to jump in

if I understood what kind of posts you are objecting to.

[JCMach1]

37. We should agree with the anti-Sharia folks on the basis of Separation of Church and State

Nothing like spreading a little cognitive dissonance among the feeble-minded...

[Name removed]

38. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[hobbit709]

46. And the fundy Xians who want Biblical law imposed

want the same thing. That's the point of the OP.
Fundy nutjob is fundy nutjob-doesn't matter which religion they are a part of.

[donco6]

54. They only difference seems to be -

THEIR fundy nutjobs aren't stopped by a government that has separated church from state. And OUR fundy nutjobs want to move in that direction.

[Cresent City Kid]

41. Did I miss something?

I'm facinated by the discussion of what Sharia law is or isn't, but I'm curious as to why this is being brought up by the right at this time. Was any city, county, state or federal official even thinking about introducing it anywhere? Some of the crap they come up with I can at least see through. I had never heard of capital gains taxes until the right told us it was killing the economy. It only took a few minutes to figure out that even though the rich aren't the only ones paying it, they wanted it lowered or repealed to keep more of the loot. This Sharia law thing is from way out in left field, er... right field. What gives?

[mitchum]

44. All of that pissy ass god of Abraham nonsense is stupid...

whether it calls itself Jewish, Christian, or Muslim

[KatyMan]

55. +1

Thank you.

[clyrc]

45. Thank you, jberryhill

How many times does someone have to post that Sharia is not one set of laws before people start to see it? This is an issue that is important to me, because my dear friends and neighbors are Muslim.