Powering an electric vehicle

[ThomWV]

Electric vehicles, cars, do not run on batteries. They run on electricity. To make sense of that statement consider this, gasoline powered cars do not run on their gas tanks, they run on the gas that is in the tank.

We know that burning gasoline pollutes the air. They also pollute the ground they ride over and the waterways they pass. It is not so clear that electric powered vehicles pollute the air, soil, and water, but they most certainly do and in fact are probably a worse source of potential pollution that gasoline powered vehicles are.

Consider this. A small to medium sized car weighs somewhere between a ton and a half and two tons. Most of our vehicles, both those powered by gas and those powered by electricity have four wheels and in general have similar body shapes and sizes, which is to say they share about the same drag passing through the air. So with essentially the same weight, rolling resistance, and size and shape electric vehicles have about the same energy needs to be useful as gasoline powered cars do.

With gasoline powered cars the fuel they consume is first pumped, in its raw form, from reservoirs deep within the earth. As the Gulf blow out has shown us this first step can pollute horribly, and in fact even without a blow out the environmental degradation that results from drilling for and extracting oil is a process that pollutes the ground, where its is done, the water in the ground where it is done, and the air above where it is done. Next comes refining, which is of itself a polluting process. Then there is transportation and distribution, where small spills are commonplace. That said the petroleum industry, dirty as it is, is actually fairly clean when one considers the immense bulk of materials involved.

Electric powered vehicles can draw their energy from a wall outlet - which at first glance makes them seem mighty clean, but are they? Just where does that power come from? Well, about two thirds of it comes from burning coal. Coal is the filthiest fuel source our nation has. In extracting it by the most economical methods, strip mining, the land is destroyed. No water table survives the mining process, and the air is polluted by the heavy machinery that is used to extract the coal. Much of the electricity that is necessary to power electric vehicles will also come from natural gas. Natural gas is plentiful and and with the latest hydraulic fracturing methods is abundant. When this gas is extracted by the latest methods the first causality is the ground water - it never stands a chance. Then there is well-site initial refining, which is where many harmful pollutants are removed from the extracted gas and dumped and flared on site, doing further damage to the water table and the atmosphere. Natural Gas also has to be transported and distributed to the power plants and the tens of thousands of natural gas pumping stations around the country pollute the air (massive engines and compressors are used to pump the natural gas) in order to move the gas. Finally much of the power needed to move electric vehicles is generated by nuclear power generation plants, who's waste products will continue to plague us for at least 25,0000 years - roughly a factor of four greater than man's entire history.

So the next time someone tells you electric vehicles are clean, or implies that they use no fuel, just think about what powers them and where it comes from - because just like people have been saying for a hundred years, "there is no such thing as a free lunch", and electric vehicles certainly are no exception to that rule.

[NYC_SKP]

1. The internal combustion engine is limited to fuels that burn. Electrics can run on any source.

Solar thermal or solar photovoltaic or wind.

Depending upon the energy mix for your electric utility provider, an electric vehicle can be no, little, or great improvement over combustion.

I tend to ask the question, "Is 'Fuel' required to produce that power?"

Nikola Tesla, 1915:

"If we use our fuel to get our power, we are living on our capital and exhausting it rapidly. This method is barbarous and wantonly wasteful, and will have to be stopped in the interest of coming generations."

:patriot:

[ThomWV]

2. There aren't enough alternative fuel sources in our nation to power vehicles 1 hour out of the day.

[EstimatedProphet]

4. Yet.

The thing that is most keeping that from happening is demand for green energy. It's certainly going up now, but if electric cars become more commonplace, it will grow greatly.

[NYC_SKP]

5. Not yet.

And there won't likely be unless we begin to lower demand drastically AND bring much more non-fuel sources online.

In my circle of peers, most have stopped using the term "alternative" to describe non-carbon sources.

It diminishes the role they play and the promise they hold.

Had we listened to Tesla...

:thumbsup:

[Strelnikov_]

3. Electric cars need about 1/5th the energy

Weight/drag etc. being equal.

EV with regenerative braking, 70% efficient 'plug to wheel', full cycle.

Gasser 10% efficient 'pump to wheel', full cycle.

Give the EV a tad of a weight penalty due to lower energy density (battery weight), about 1/5.

Bottom line, though, for EV's to be feasible due to the energy density issue, and need to power with renewable energy, they will need to be smaller/lighter than today's cars.

The miracle of refined petroleum is what makes the modern living room on four wheels possible.

[Webster Green]

6. That's why we need more solar and wind electricity.

Petroleum sources are running out anyway.

Cleaner means of producing the electricity will change the equation. Many of the vehicles can be charged overnight, when the electricity demand is lower. Homes will put electricty into the grid during daylight hours, and take some back out to charge vehicles overnight.

Bio-fuel/electric hybrids could be pretty sweet. Run them on sunshine and hemp derived bio-gas.

[ixion]

7. The vehicles are clean, the source of the wall socket is not. THAT is the problem

Change the source, problem solved.

Distributed alternative energy systems. It's inevitable.

[lumberjack_jeff]

8. a) it depends on where you live

On the west coast, a far greater proportion of our electricity is generated from non-polluting sources

b) even in the worst case scenario, a coal fired electric generator is more efficient than an internal combustion engine.

c) it's easier to scrub the exhaust of one electric generator than it is to scrub the tailpipe emissions of 100,000 cars.

d) an electric vehicle is far more energy efficient - virtually none of the energy stored aboard the car is wasted as heat.

http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/2759/are-electric-cars-really-more-energy-efficient

How much energy is lost getting electricity from the power plant to your PHEV or BEV? Plenty. In the U.S. right now, about 70 percent of the energy used to make electricity — more than four million gigawatt-hours — comes from fossil fuels. About 70 percent of that amount is wasted generating the power and transmitting it to your door. Additional energy is lost when charging batteries and running electric motors. Overall, electric cars use fossil fuel at 20 to 25 percent efficiency, but dismal as that sounds, it beats an internal-combustion car, which typically operates at about 15 percent efficiency. An HEV uses around 0.48-0.74 kilowatt-hours per mile, while PHEVs in electric mode and BEVs use 0.18-0.46 kWh per mile. By contrast, a conventional car getting 25 MPG uses 1.35 kWh/mile. To put the issue in more familiar terms, a PHEV or BEV offers fuel economy equivalent to as much as 188 miles per gallon.

Now let’s talk pollution. A huge advantage of PHEV and BEV cars is that their energy can come from renewable sources, such as hydroelectric, wind, or solar. Even if the energy source is fossil fuel, installing state-of-the-art emission controls on a few big power plants is way easier than installing ’em on hundreds of millions of motor vehicles. What’s more, since many electric plants use natural gas, CO2 emissions from power generation are a modest 1.27 pounds of CO2 per kWh — 1.9 pounds per productive kWh once we account for losses during battery charging and so on. Compare that to gasoline, which produces the equivalent of 3.9 pounds of CO2 per productive kWh.

[Chef Eric]

9. Wrong, wrong, wrong. Even with electricity from coal, electric cars are cleaner and greener.

There have been numerous studies that prove this.

Here's one of them:

http://green.autoblog.com/2009/07/24/study-even-with-electricity-from-coal-electric-vehilces-beat-g/

But this is only half the story. Even if the "coal is dirtier than gasoline" claim WERE true (and it most certainly is NOT), electric cars would still be better for us over the long term than gasoline cars.

Here's why:

Electric cars have no tailpipe and produce zero emissions while moving. By separating our pollution from our transportation, we get pollution from thousands of sources (power plants) instead of millions of sources (internal combustion engines).

Thus, when new technology comes along that makes electricity cleaner, we only need to upgrade a few thousand power plants, rather than a few hundred million cars. It is much easier to change one coal plant out for one wind farm, for example, than it is to bring millions of cars back in to install some new kind of pollution control device.

[ThomWV]

10. The electric car's tail pipe is at the power plant

and I didn't even bother mentioning the pollution that is created when one builds, operates, and disposes of a battery.

[Chef Eric]

15. You're not paying attention.

I already pointed out that the electric car's "tail pipe" is at the power plant. That happens to be one of the electric car's ADVANTAGES. Because when new technology comes along that makes electricity cleaner, we can focus on upgrading a few thousand power plants; this is much easier and much more economical that replacing or upgrading a few hundred million cars.

Yes, I noticed that you didn't bother mentioning the environmental hazards of batteries. It seems there are a lot of things that you haven't bothered doing. Why don't you do some real research on how hazardous batteries are, instead of speculating about it? Why don't you provide some useful links that support your arguments? I'm talking about links to legitimate scientific studies (i.e., studies that have not been sponsored by big oil).

[defendandprotect]

25. We need to NATIONALIZE oil industry -- solar batteries/cars should be next . . .

but until we get private interests out of the use of our natural resoruces

we will have no progress on alternative energy of any kind --

We could have had cars with 100 mpg at this point -- had we not had an alliance

between the oil and auto industry -- and BRIBED elected officials!!

[MajorChode]

30. This is correct. The premise that electric cars are just as dirty is laughable

As your website shows, even coal generated power is cleaner, but not all power comes from coal. It also comes from natural gas, nuclear, renewables, and a few other miscellaneous sources, all of which are cleaner still. The OP is perpetuating a very fallacious and harmful myth.

[Wounded Bear]

11. Wow....I guess we should just give up, then....

:sarcasm:

Sorry, but I think I will continue to fight the stranglehold the petro industries have on our country and our society. :P

[deaniac21]

12. Batteries are full of lead too.

[Webster Green]

14. Why?

Only if we want them to be.

There are amazing innovations on the horizon. We don't need to be trapped using outdated technology.

http://www.alternative-energy-news.info/new-battery-technology-self-powered-devices/

http://www.ubergizmo.com/15/archives/2010/02/new_battery_technology_to_improve_lithium-ion_battery_life.html

http://www.ubergizmo.com/15/archives/2010/02/new_battery_technology_to_improve_lithium-ion_battery_life.html

http://www.heraldextra.com/news/article_b0372fd8-3f3c-11de-ac77-001cc4c002e0.html

[deaniac21]

16. Can a perpetual motion engine be far behind?

[Webster Green]

17. I don't know if it will ever be possible, but we should get as close as we can.

The laws of physics will need to be revised.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

18. Why isn't Obama doing anything about the laws of physics?

I've never been so disappointed in him.

[Webster Green]

24. No shit! Enough is enough.

We're running out of time here.

Actually, I'm not optimistic about our survival. By the time we hit rock-bottom and start the re-hab, it will be too late. :banghead:

[Tesha]

22. Lithium-Ion Batteries have *LEAD* in them?

You could have fooled me! I thought they
were mostly lithium!

Tesha

[Confusious]

27. Lithium is just as bad, if not worse, then lead. nt

[Tesha]

32. Beacuse you say so? Or do you have any actual facts on your side? (NT)

[seabeckind]

13. The problem is that previous solutions define the requirements

Example: A company says they need a call center to answer customer inquiries and this call center must have space and facilities to support 250 reps. The requirement is defined as the call center but the actual requirement is that customer inquiries need to be resolved. The call center was the previous solution. It is not the requirement.

A different, more effective solution is to decentralize the inquiry resolution, emply 500 part-time, on-demend reps, at the location of their choosing. That way the talent of an entire geographic area can be utilized, not just those who can commute full-time to a central location.

That is what is happening today with the electric cars. We don't have a car problem, we have a transportation problem.

We must quit allowing our previous implementation dictate our current needs.

Sorry, got called away...To continue,

99% of my travel is less than 50 miles a day. And 99% of that time it is 2 occupants and litle cargo. So I have 2 small cars. I rent a different vehicle for the other 1% of the time.

Why does my car have to be MY car? When I need to travel from my home across Puget Sound to Seattle, why should I have to haul MY ton and a half of steel with me? Why not just pick a different one up on the other side, use it, and then drop it off when I'm done? Overall the result to me has been the same as the current implementation but the overall energy requirements to our society is a fraction of what it is today.

Then add mass transit to the mix.

Or the idea of a modular vehicle.

But the ultimate problem we face as a society is that those special interests who rely on the current implementation for their survival have too much power and control. Imagine what the auto would have looked like if the horse transportation people had as much control in the late 19th century as the current transporation people have today.

[chillspike]

19. Sunn car

http://www.sunnev.com/

[northernlights]

20. I won't buy an electric car until...

I have converted my home to windmill plus solar roof. The windmill will come first -- home sizes are available now in my state of nonstop breezes. The solar will come in a couple years...since the US chose not to pick up the ball, the Chinese are running with it and will have have very affordable solar within a couple years.

Once I'm all renewable electric all the time, I'll get my electric car and plug it in at home.

[chillspike]

21. We can harness kinetic energy from our electric cars

http://www.forumforthefuture.org/http%3A/%252Fwww.forumforthefuture.org/greenfutures/articles/street_surfaces

[Tesha]

23. You understand that the system described in that article is simply stealing...

kinetic energy from the passing vehicles, right?
The energy that it's producing appears to your car
as increased rolling resistance.

TANSTAAFL.

Tesha

[IDemo]

26. EV's will have energy storage capabilities no ICE vehicle could:

Namely - the ability to store and deliver electric energy back to the grid. This will provide badly needed storage capacity for wind and solar projects as well as lightening the load on the grid during peak demand periods.

V2G Concept

The V2G concept is that battery, hybrid, and fuel cell vehicles all can send power to the electric grid, power that all three already generate internally. For battery and plug-in hybrid vehicles, the power connection is already there. For fuel cell and fuel-only hybrids, an electrical connection must be added. Red arrows indicate electric flow from vehicles to the grid.

[Igel]

28. Query

Are internal combustion engines as efficient as the result of power stations, transmission-line loss, and storage/recovery efficiency of batteries?

Even 10% improvement in efficiency might make the effort worth it.

[IDemo]

29. Not even remotely as efficient

Google "Well to wheel analysis" for the numbers. Basically, the power loss from electrical generation and transmission is greater than extracting and refining oil and delivering it to the gas pump. But electric motors and modern battery control electronics are so much more efficient than internal combustion that the difference is more than made up for.

[Touchdown]

31. Well, then we should power them with the Gilligan Bike.

And the Gilligan Limo