Originally, I could understand the right to build a mosque, but then I thought --

[BigBearJohn]

What would have happened if the Japanese tried to build
a Japanese temple around Pearl Harbor in 1942?

Just askin -- (please don't crucify me)

[AlabamaLibrul]

1. "The Muslims" did not attack us on 9/11. Nineteen crazies did. n/t

[Parker CA]

4. +1.

[Prometheus Bound]

7. True enough. And quite a few of them are alive today.

Which makes me wonder who really did attack you.

[AlabamaLibrul]

9. I wasn't going to get into 9/11 board stuff on this thread, but a couple points

I have my doubts, nothing concrete, just a wish for a more in-depth commission that really took all angles into account after reading the Report in book form. I, however, take the official story as the truth because I don't have anything better to put forward.

Either way, it was not a foreign state actor that planned and made an attack on 9/11 by any account, whereas Pearl Harbor was a foreign state actor. If the 19 people who are implicated were the hijackers, then they were acting on behalf of a slightly larger group of people that still pales in comparison to the 1.6 billion Muslims in the world.

For it to be in any way equal to "building a Japanese temple" (when, of course, Japanese is not a religion) the proposed Islamic community and prayer center would have to be called Al-Qaeda House.

[Old and In the Way]

21. There's lots we don't understand about the hijackers of 9/11.

And, obviously, we've closed the door on really understanding who they were and what their motivation was. What we do know is 17 of 19 hijackers, allegedly, were Sauds. None were Iraqi's. We gave safe passage to the House of Saud family days after 9/11 when no one could fly, we exited military bases in Saudi Arabia, and attacked the #1 threat to the Sauds oil empire. Truth is, we took the #2 oil supplier ( a nationalist/socialist supplier of oil) out of the market. Making oil more expensive...making the Sauds and their primary US benefactors, the Bush Family, far more wealthy. Don't believe me? Try to find out what the Bush family net assets are. For a family so aligned with 'public service', I think we'd be amazed at how much their net worth has increased over the past 40 years - directly proportional to the reduction of our national wealth...coincidence? Not if you've been paying attention.

[Blue_In_AK]

8. Indeed, it was a criminal act by a few nut cases.

We certainly weren't attacked by the 1.5 billion Muslims in the world.

[dkf]

24. Why do you think they were crazy?

They probably did more for their cause than the last 18 poor souls in Afghanistan did for ours.

[Blue_In_AK]

71. It's my western mentality speaking, I suppose.

To me, flying a plane into a building is sort of crazy.

[Caliman73]

73. They only did for their cause what we allow them to do..

When we go off "concerned" about the location of an Islamic community center because it is in the area affected by debris from an attack by criminals, then yes, we have allowed the criminals to accomplish their goals. If we start screaming for denial of the right to use private property just because people lump all Muslims into one category, then yes, they have done much for the cause of culture war, and people who react that way are right there with them.

[Chisox08]

17. Under the orders of a billionaire

[Canuckistanian]

119. That SHOULD stop the argument right there

What if the KKK had attacked Saudi Arabia? Would Saudi Arabia declare war on all Christianity?

What if they said "Oh, all you CHRISTIANS are bloodthirsty cultists?"

Mind you, they probably think that already.

But isn't America supposed to be BETTER than a theocracy? That's what I've been told America represents for all my 50 years on Earth.

[Luminous Animal]

2. Perhaps the irrational bigots would have crawled out of their holes.

[Rosa Luxemburg]

3. Man oh man, there are already 2 Mosques near the WTC

and one of them has been there since 1975!

[sandnsea]

5. Let's try 1951

Because it's been 9 years since 9/11.

I would venture a guess there were lots of Japanese in Pearl Harbor in 1951, doing all sorts of things including worshipping.

[Vickers]

16. Math is a motherfucker, huh? n/t

[Make7]

6. Hell, we might have forced Japanese-Americans to internment camps or something... ( nt )

[HEyHEY]

10. I doubt it would have been well received back then even if Pearl Harbour never happened

[steve2470]

11. I agree

I can see the ACLU and other like-minded people defending their First Amendment rights. It might have ended up at the SCOTUS, with a victory for the temple.

[steve2470]

61. after being educated here, I'm wrong here

It would have been a non-issue.

[sandnsea]

18. There are temples all over the western US

I can't speak for the east because I just don't know. Hawaii is also a very culturally diverse place, and wasn't even a state in the 40s and 50s. They may well have had more non-Christian places of worship than Christian.

[LostinVA]

52. There are Buddhist temples and zendos all over the Eastern US

I have one very close to me, and about 30 within a 50 mile radius. For real. And this is Virginia.

And, I know there is a very large Shinto shrine in DC.

[LostinVA]

47. Except Shinto shrines and Buddhist temples and zendos awere already in the area

[LostinVA]

51. They already had them in Hawaii

My God, do posters not know how many Japanese and Japanese-Americans lived in the Islands, and still do???

[HEyHEY]

118. I was just making a point about race relations back in the day.

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

12. We would probably have reacted by interning American citizens of Japanese descent

[LostInAnomie]

13. Once upon a time America used to stand for more than appeasing bigots.

Who the fuck cares about the delicate sensibilities of bigots and other types of Republicans? What honest reason do we have for denying the Cordoba House a permit to build? Legally there's no reason. There isn't any reason to believe they were involved in 9/11 or are going to use it for "terrorist activities". The only reason this is even a story is that some people that don't like Muslims are getting upset. Well, tough shit. The government and the Constitution aren't in the business of protecting bigots from getting angry.

[steve2470]

14. agreed nt

[Dorian Gray]

30. +1

[CBGLuthier]

89. When was this, exactly?

As near as I can tell we have never stood for much of anything other than the bullet and the gun and might makes right and fuck you if you don't look or think like me.

I don't think this idealized america ever really existed. Maybe sometime briefly during the 70's before we decided we won Vietnam after all and who wants some more.

[Chulanowa]

15. Just Asking?

[BigBearJohn]

19. Ouch. Thanks

My only point is, the people who are thinking of building a
mosque could be more sensitive to others feelings. There really
is no need to erect a mosque so close to the site of 911. In a
city the size of New York, they could have put more thought into
their choice of site locations.

[Chulanowa]

27. I know that's your point. The problem is, your point is stupid

You want the people building the community center (get it right) to be "more sensitive to people's feelings." Why should they? Those people who are against it are not against it for any rational reason.

People are uncomfortable with there being a prayer room in this community center? Okay, why? Because it's "too close to ground zero." Okay, exactly what sort of measurement are we using? How many meters is "too close?" What is the standard? Does direction matter? if this building were to the south or west of the site, but the same distance, would it then be acceptable? Further, why is it even "too close"? I've seen claims of ground zero being "hallowed ground." Okay, hallowed by whom, to what degree, under what pretenses? if this building violates this "hallowed ground," then there is another question of why? If we are going to make the argument that this building somehow defiles "hallowed ground" by dint of the religion represented, then a pretty clear statement that all followers of this religion are guilty follows.

Obviously, this is not a rational argument. Let's go back and try another angle.

I've seen claims that ground zero is "hallowed ground." Okay, hallowed by whom, to what degree and under what pretenses? 2,605 people died in the attacks, does that then make it sacred ground? Why is this so, and who is it sacred to, exactly? If it is a particular god, surely it can make its own displeasure known if it is so offended. Does any god or religion in particular have a sole claim for this hallowed ground? if so, then we are again stepping into irrationality, as we obviously do not have any deities stepping out to tell us their opinions. If not, then we must revisit the question, who is the site sacred to? The American people as a whole seems a good option. I would again question the "why" of the place being considered sacred, but that's a harp on a different species of irrationality. So if this spot is defined as sacred to the American people, well, again what's the problem? Americans want to exercise their American rights and incorporate a religion that is well-represented in America into what they are building. Do these Americans then have no claim to exercise their American rights to practice an American religion near ground held sacred by Americans? Why? if it is because of which religion it is, we bump into the same position as we see in the first paragraph; some people are "more equal."

Again, this is a wholly irrational position to take.

Next, what is the the parameter of "sacred" or "hallowed?" What, in practical terms, does that mean? What is and is not allowed in such an area? If only solemnity is allowed in a sacred place, then it would seem reasonable to think that a place of worship is a more fitting addition to the site than a strip club or sex theater. if we are to believe that a place of worship is acceptable but just not from one particular religion, then we once again run into the thread of bigotry and irrationality we saw the first time around!

So, this sacred, hallowed area, how big is it? What are its delineations? if we are going to argue that something is "too close" then we certainly have accurate measurements of the area it encompasses, and a set distance of zoning, correct? After all, if Boise can figure out how close a liquor store can be to a school, I'm sure Manhattan can figure out the zone of hallowed-ness. So if we're going to argue that the community center is "too close" then we have to have some set distance that is "far enough," correct? However, this does not seem to be the case; not one critic has drawn such a line, and they very often leave themselves open to the interpretation that any place is "too close." What's further, the government of New York City and the Borough of Manhattan have drawn no such demarcation of how close an Islamic community center can be to hallowed ground; and rightly so, because while alcohol is harmful to minors and illegal to sell to them, Islam doesn't hurt you any worse than another religion and it is not illegal to practice. Singling it out would also be a violation of the first amendment; Irrationality and unconstitutionality!

Further, it poses a question; how does Islam defile this "hallowed ground" in a way that, say, Mormonism would not? Are there special qualities of religion, measurable, that carry differing levels of "taint"? What does such a defilement entail, exactly? This is a quick step into belief in magic poswers; again, irrational.

Time and time again, the argument against this community center becomes one flavor or another of "I dislike Muslims / Islam, and expect them to respect my bigotry." Posters other than myself have asked for critics like you to pose a rational argument against the building, and so far none have managed to do so. The reason why is simple; there's just no rational argument to be made.

[BigBearJohn]

99. Thank you for taking the time to explain your position. It is appreciated.

[kohodog]

120. well said. n/t

[ThomThom]

122. What gets me is they always start their argument with "I believe in

religious freedom" or "I understand the constitution says" or "we have freedom of worship here" then comes the but, a very big but that says I don't care about it, or I'm prepared to ignore it. They are prepared to take away someone other persons rights because they think they know better.

[BigBearJohn]

128. Everybody I know has a big but.

[CreekDog]

142. "I believe in religious freedoms" but I'm going to bully you not to exercise them

if that doesn't work watch for them to drop the former position.

:banghead:

people should not get played by the 1) the ignorant or 2) the bigoted

it never leads anywhere worth going. besides, who wants to drive in reverse?

[mwb970]

130. +1 Great post!

And you didn't even mention the fact that there is a similar prayer facility (what conservatives call a "mosque") inside the Pentagon. No comments, no protests. Why is this ground not hallowed?

Of course, the whole process of mounting a well-reasoned, sense-based defense against hateful conservative shrieking is an exercise in futility.

[TheKentuckian]

69. Why should bigots be considered, much less appeased?

Thanks for legitimizing the very worst of the Reich and their mission to unwind the fabric of a free people.

[BigBearJohn]

105. Reid: Mosque Should Be Built Someplace Else

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/08/16/reid-mosque-should-be-bui_n_683762.html

[Raineyb]

107. Reid is spineless and feckless and if he wants to accommodate bigots he too can go to hell. n/t

[TheKentuckian]

150. Same goes for the guy with the jelly spine. You believe in America or don't

[CreekDog]

143. there are lots of people that think it's okay to "bully" the Muslim group out of there

you won't like this but...

you need to consider when you are effectively joining up with them, because you are.

[NYC Liberal]

20. Perhaps they would be rounded up and put in camps

because bigots blamed innocent Japanese American citizens for the actions of others.

Oh wait, that actually did happen. :think:

[Old and In the Way]

22. In theory, I bet you support the Constitution.

Except for the part that protects the interests of minorities. That, you have questions that need to be asked to the board. You've been listening a lot to Sarah Palin, Glen Beck, and Rush Limbaugh and, damn, they make a lotta sense. They may even be smarter than the guys who wrote that document in 1776. Am I close, BigBearJohn?

Let me ask...are you Big? or a Bear? or a John? Doubtful you're all 3.

[BigBearJohn]

25. Please don't hold back on my account. Let it all out.

I wasn't attacking you. I asked a question.
You feel a need to jump down my throat? Well go ahead
if makes you feel better or superior.

Can't we discuss things without trying to intimidate
the person asking the question?

If my question offends you (which apparently it has)
I apologize. It truly wasn't my intention. When I
heard they were trying to build a mosque at the site
of the 911 attacks, I thought it was insensitive on
their part. I don't deny their right to build a mosque.
I encourage it; however, they could have given it more
thought. Granted, I might have come up with a better example
to make my point, but I notice that you too were shooting
from the hip and wasted no time attacking ME.

I guess the mistake I made was thinking that I could
vocalize a question that occurred to me, seeking
opinions without having people like you automatically
impuning my character.

My ONLY point is that surely there are other sites
they could have chosen to build their mosque. They
simply must know the huge outrage this building
would engender. It's not as if it's the only building
site available in the entire New York City.

And as far as listening to Glenn Beck, Sarah Palin or
Rush Lintball, you really zinged me there. I doubt
if there anything ANYONE could say to me that would be
more insulting. Job well done. You insulted me big
time, mainly because these people are on my top 3 list
of people to despise. So if your intention was to
royally insult me, you get a huge A++++ I am righteously
crushed. Thanks a lot. I hope someone shoves your
face in the caca some day and you learn how it feels.

[uppityperson]

64. "When I heard they were trying to build a mosque at the site of the 911 attacks,"

Where did you hear this? They are not "trying to build a mosque at the site of the 911 attacks".

Even if they were, which they aren't, would you rather have another "adult" bookstore there? Did you know there is a different mosque a block or 2 away? How far from the "site of the 911 attacks" is it alright to build a community center to foster peace?

"When I heard they were trying to build a mosque at the site of the 911 attacks" is what Beck, Palin, Limball are saying, so saying "When I
heard they were trying to build a mosque at the site of the 911 attacks" could lead someone to assume you listen to them.

[BigBearJohn]

106. Reid: Mosque Should Be Built Someplace Else

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/08/16/reid-mosque-should-be-bui_n_683762.html

[Raineyb]

108. There is no excuse for accommodating bigots. None. I don't give a flying fairy fuck who says

it should be built somewhere else. Reid lives in Nevada so he can fuck off as far as the zoning laws on NYC are concerned.

[dkf]

23. If the person building the temple said they were building it there

as a gesture of goodwill would that have been the smartest way to do it?

[BigBearJohn]

26. I should have taken more time to structure this post. I honestly wasn't trying to be incendiary.

However, there is such a thing as common sense.
The nation still has open wounds in regards to the
atrocity committed on 911. Why would somebody
want to throw salt in an open wound of so many
Americans? I honestly don't care if 100 mosques
are built in New York City; however, prudence is
the characteristic of exercising sound judgment
in practical affairs. There is no practical need
to build a mosque right near the site of 911.

We all do have to learn to get along together
and I just feel that this action of building
a mosque in the 911 location is insensitive.
I, for one, am in no way denying their right
to build a mosque. However, I do feel they
could have used considerably more judgment
in choosing their location. That's all
I will say no more on this topic.

[Caliman73]

75. Why would you assume that the construction of a community center is throwing salt on a wound?

That assumption is based on the idea that all Muslims must answer for the acts of a few criminals. It is completely irrational and unacceptable in a country that supposedly values freedom of religion, democracy, and property rights.

[6000eliot]

28. Japanese is a religion?

[Chulanowa]

29. It is for some people

[6000eliot]

32. Yikes!

[CJCRANE]

31. I heard there *is* a Japanese Shinto shrine near Pearl Harbor. n/t

[LostinVA]

50. There is

And, one of only a literal handful of Shinto shrines in the whole Unites States.

[xultar]

33. Seriously?

[whathehell]

34. I tend to agree with you, In in my opinion, the issue isn't about "rights"

of course they have the "right"...I think the issue is whether it's wise.

A muslim writer (can't remember the name) recently wrote that he was opposed to it, thinking it "culturally insensitive"...I agree with him and I commend him speaking out.

[Little Star]

38. I agree with you

they have the right to build a mosque but it is culturally insensitive. You stated my feelings perfectly.

[whathehell]

85. Thank you. n/t

[Sea Witch]

42. I'm sure people said the same thing back during the Civil Rights era

[whathehell]

83. Um...No.

As one who was actually alive and cognizant during that era, I can tell you that it was a different matter.

Here's a link to the Muslim writer who agrees with those of us who think it's a bad idea....You might then want to send him your thoughts.

[Sea Witch]

115. So no one said it would be just easier if different races stayed separate?

That mixing would cause problems and wouldn't be wise? That is what this is about. It's a certain section of Americans who feel that muslim Americans are "others" and not real Americans and therefore should keep to themselves instead of going somewhere that that group has mistakenly laid claim to.
Sufi's are an incredibly peaceful group from my understanding. They have no more to do with extremist muslims then quakers have to do with David Koresh.

[whathehell]

131. You're interpretation, I'm afraid, is off on more than one point....There are two mosques in NYC...

now...Where's the "separation"?

This is about 9/11 and, IMO, is a local issue which should be decided locally. Period.

You can "get it" or not...I'm no longer interested...Buh bye

[Sea Witch]

133. Yes, we see thing very differently.

[chrisa]

161. I'm curious why you think a community center is "insensitive."

Would you think a Christian Community Center near the area McVeigh bombed was insensitive?

Actually, we would probably not even hear about it because the sensationalist media wouldn't make it their issue du jour. This entire story is a false, stirred-up moral panic that has ties to racism and fear.

[Raineyb]

43. Of course let's consider the feeling of the poor bigots who can't stand them

"moooslims" building anything in the country.

If black people used your reasoning we'd still be sitting in the back of the bus. "Culturally insensitive?" I don't give a flying fuck about the sensitivities of bigots. They can go to hell. And so can their apologists.

[whathehell]

81. Then tell that to this muslim writer....

http://www.hudson-ny.org/1346/mosque-at-ground-zero-muslim-viewT

[Raineyb]

87. What part of the bigots can go to hell and so can their apologists did you not understand?

I'll give him about as much consideration as I give that clown Michael Steele, that is to say none whatsoever. I stand by my original comment. If you're looking for people to validate your capitulation to bigotry you'll have to find it elsewhere because you damn sure won't find it with me I don't give a shit about the sensitivities of bigots and the more you rub their nose in what they hate the better I say.

[whathehell]

92. So you think this muslim writer is a "bigot" regarding other muslims?

Like I said, take it up with him.:eyes: I'm outa here.

[Raineyb]

94. No he's an apologist. Which means he can go to hell just like the bigots.

Let's try reading for comprehension hmm? The sentence read bigots AND THEIR APOLOGISTS can go to hell. Now which category would the Muslim writer fall into?

[whathehell]

110. Let's try reading this for comprehension......hmmm?

I don't give a rat's ass.

Now take a metaphorical quarter and find someone who cares. :hi:

[Name removed]

112. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

117. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Raineyb]

125. How's this for comprehension

There's a place where you should stick your bigotry apologia. I suggest you do so.

[LostinVA]

90. All I have to say is: Log Cabin Republicans

[whathehell]

93. Whatever....I disagree, but

so it goes.:shrug:

[Raineyb]

95. I don't understand. If I add and their apologists would it not include the writer the poster was

referencing? I'm pretty sure it would. I don't think my reading comprehension skills have fallen by the wayside since I left school and as you understand what I'm saying I'm thinking it wasn't my writing skills at fault either.

[LostinVA]

100. I'm not commenting negatively on anything you wrote

???

There are self-loathers within every group, or people within every group who defend people discriminating against their group.

[Raineyb]

104. Oh no. I didn't mean to imply that you were. I was wondering out loud sort to speak why

you clearly understood what I was saying and the poster to whom you were replying, seems incapable of it.

[LostinVA]

111. Oh, okay!

:rofl:

I was like :wtf: I'm agreeing!!!!!

[whathehell]

116. I would disagree with that too, I'm afraid.

If someone disagrees with your point of view, they are "self-loathers".

Viewing that as the ONLY interpretation is being less than open-minded on the subject, I'd say.

That being as it may, I am REALLY tired of the entire topic...I think it's a local issue and should be decided by locals. Period.

[Raineyb]

126. The LOCALS of which you are not one, says the community center can go up

yet YOU apparently think you know better about the neighborhood as to decide what is and is not wise in light of whatever excuse du jour the bigots come up with.

And there is no open-mindedness with bigotry. You do not accept it, nor do you make excuses for it, nor do you capitulate to it. And if you don't get that you deserve every bit of derision that goes your way.

[CreekDog]

145. you cherrypick one Muslim and post that here?

and you think you are adding to intelligent debate?

really? no, really???

well i have one thing to say to that:

i know a white guy that believes in unicorns, so there! :rant:

:eyes:

[Chulanowa]

103. self-delete nt

[readmoreoften]

156. OH! A token says so! It must be true! It's okay to sally forth w/ my fucked up ideas.

:eyes: (not @ you LIV)

[LostinVA]

158. (I know, RMO)

[emilyg]

72. Agree.

[whathehell]

84. Thank you. n/t

[BigBearJohn]

127. Thank you. That was the entire purpose behind this post. BBJ

[seabeyond]

35. i heard there is already a mosque there, they are just adding on to it. it that true?

seems like if that is the case, it is a totally bogus story, not that i dont think it is a stupid outrage anyway

[dflprincess]

123. There is a mosque in the area, maybe a block or so away

from where the community center would be built.

[yellowwood]

36. Sorry

I sympathize with you because you're going to get flamed. They can be pretty cruel around here.

But, here's something to realize.

There really is no issue. This issue is manufactured by the neocons and right-wing media.

Do you remember when these propaganda masters managed to make the American public generalize the hatred that they felt after 9/11 toward Iraq. They did such a good job that they put us into this stupid war that has cost us so much in blood and treasure, not to mention the censure of others around the world.

Now they are trying to stir up a hatred toward all Muslims and somehow tarrng them all with the evils of 9/11. Then, when they decide to start a war with some other Muslim country, the Americann people will blindly agree and send their sons and daughters to die for nothing.

It's very sad.

[mmonk]

37. The Japanese aren't a religion. Muslims aren't a country.

The only other argument for denying them their Constitutional rights is the one the right uses, that Muslims are terrorists.

[kiranon]

97. Thank you for your post. It's a moment of clarity in a sea of discord.

[jberryhill]

39. There is more than one Shinto shrine in Honolulu /nt

[EstimatedProphet]

40. There was a big enough population of Japanese in Hawaii that they may have

[Sea Witch]

41. Japanese is a nationality and not a religion

Islam is a religion and not a nationality. Islam did not attack the trade centers, some religious nutcases did. Religious nutcases not affiliated in any way with the group building the community center.

What do you think stops violence? Hate and bigotry or acceptance and understanding?

[lunatica]

44. Well we'd just tell them they could build a temple in Manzanar!

Funny, I just tried to make sure the spelling of the camp was correct and found a dozen links about the Japanese internments which were broken.

[LostinVA]

55. Which they did, and a Shinto gate!

They also had BSA and GSA troops, and a Methodist Church and Catholic sisters.

The family of my best friend growing up had been in Manzanar, both her mom and dad's family. They gave up business, homes, belongings, pets (no one ever thinks of that -- my friend's grandmother had the vet put their dog and kitty to sleep, so they wouldn't wind up on the streets or in an abusive home), everything. And, a very few of them received 20K decades later. Most were loyal American citizens, the rest wanted to eb, but weren't allowed citizenship. THey faced incredible discrimination both before and after the war, and many Japanese American men fought bravely in WWII.

This is what this "Mosque" garbage reminds me of, and it really makes me realize why my friend's father flew the American flag upside down on July 4th and Veterans Day.

[CreekDog]

146. And a real glimpse into American character during WW2:

Most Japanese Americans who were interned lost their homes and businesses because their neighbors stole them after these citizens were interned.

People are jerks when you get them into a group big enough to pick on others.

[LostinVA]

151. My BFF growing up had both parents interned in Manzanar

Her grandparents, parents, and aunts and uncles lost EVERYTHING: businesses, savings, belongs, homes, their pets.

[Name removed]

45. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LostinVA]

56. OMFG -- just STOP it with this ridiculous strawmen

UGH.

[steve2470]

57. So now the Klan is a religion ? Akin to Islam, Judaism, etc ? nt

[uncommon]

59. The KKK is a hate group with a sole purpose to hate and intimidate - Islam is a religion with

a few whackadoo fundamentalists who happen to be hate-filled.

[lunatica]

66. Yeah, what about it?

Islam and the Klan have so much in common don't they? :sarcasm:

[LostinVA]

46. There is no such thing as a "Japanese Temple"

There are, however, several Shinto shrines and Buddhist zendos and temples all over Hawaii, including very close to Pearl Harbor.

So what???

And, how does a nationality equal a religion?

I've read this several times on DU this mroning. This must be a new meme from somewhere.

[uncommon]

62. Sounds like Glenn Beckian bullshit to me.

[LostinVA]

65. Many Japanese-Americans in Hawaii at that time were Christian, too

Not that that technically makes a difference, I'
m just saying.

I'm a Zen Buddhist, and I think a "Japanese (ie Buddhist) Temple" at such a site is a lovely idea.

[LostinVA]

48. Also remember that the Japanese-Americans in Hawaii weren't rounded up

Like those on the Mainland. The racial discrimination that existed on the Mainland toward Asians was largely absent in Hawaii. And, there were legit Japanese spies in the Islands!

[ThoughtCriminal]

49. Object to a Japanese temple in Honolulu in 1950?

Or a Christian church in Hiroshima or Nagasaki in 1954?
Just to make the comparison a little closer. I guessing that there probably were in both cases.

[LostinVA]

60. Yup to both!

[My Good Babushka]

53. Muslim Americans are not Al Quaeda

by your logic, I wouldn't want any Catholic Churches to open up within two miles of any schools or day care centers, since they are all child brothels.

[EstimatedProphet]

54. Really, this is not a winning argument

[La Lioness Priyanka]

63. ..

:applause:

[JVS]

58. 2010=1942?

:eyes:

[Ikonoklast]

67. Go to Pearl Harbor.

See the Arizona Memorial, and then look around a little.

You will invariably see Japanese tourists, of a certain age, offering Shinto prayers for the souls of the American sailors killed there.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

68. What if the Mexicans tried to build a Mexican Temple at the Alamo?

[LostinVA]

91. I'm kinda mad at you for writing that

Because I loled when I read it, and dribbled orange juice all over my shirt.

[BigBearJohn]

155. actually made me laugh out loud too. Glad to see SOME have senses of humor

[Tommy_Carcetti]

134. Let's not forget the giant British Temple at the site of the Boston Massacre.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_Ei2Ik5quiI0/SrhKx7y2__I/AAAAAAAADP8/xOwAHwL2Npo/s400/arthur+treacher%27s+addison+il+1976.jpg

Also known as an Arthur Treacher's Fish and Chips.

Delicious, yet so, so insensitive!

[geardaddy]

135. Spot on.

[LostinVA]

140. omfg

:rofl:

[Tommy_Carcetti]

149. What? You never heard of the Canadian Temple located at the site of the Battle of Plattsburgh?

Where American forces faced Canadian troops at the height of the War of 1812?

[LostinVA]

152. gigglegigglegiggle

[TheKentuckian]

70. You supported fundamental American principles but then your inner Beck came out

complete with absurd comparison flowing with massive ignorance?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

74. 8/10

[spanone]

76. you are quoting newt gingrich ....

[Karenina]

77. He KNEW that. Thus his plea...

:eyes:

[spanone]

78. no, his plea is don't crucify him, not newt

:shrug:

[western mass]

79. the racists would have responded in the same way

they're doing now to the mosque in NYC. Does that answer your question?

And what is a "Japanese temple"? And which Japanese would build it? The Japanese government, local Hawaiians of Japanese descent, who? Whether intended or not, this analogy is phrased just as ignorantly as the original example.

[Orsino]

80. And what would have happened if an African-American man had announced a run for president in 1942?

What would have happened to same-sex couples who dared to push for marriage equality in 1942?

[walldude]

82. Actually the question should be...

Why are we willing to punish innocent people because of the crimes of a few lunatics?

I notice we didn't stop building Christian Churches when a crazed Christian Warrior walked into a church on a Sunday and shot a doctor in cold blood. :shrug:

[Douglas Carpenter]

86. a NYT article about Imam Feisal and his plan for the center written before the crazy hate campaign

Muslim Prayers and Renewal Near Ground Zero
By RALPH BLUMENTHAL and SHARAF MOWJOOD
Published: December 8, 2009

snip:

“ As a Sufi, Imam Feisal follows a path of Islam focused more on spiritual wisdom than on strict ritual, and as a bridge builder, he is sometimes focused more on cultivating relations with those outside his faith than within it.

snip:

Those who have worked with him say if anyone could pull off what many regard to be a delicate project, it would be Imam Feisal, whom they described as having built a career preaching tolerance and interfaith understanding.

“He subscribes to my credo: ‘Live and let live,’ ” said Rabbi Arthur Schneier, spiritual leader of Park East Synagogue on East 67th Street.

snip:

The mayor’s director of the Office of Immigrant Affairs, Fatima Shama, went further. “We as New York Muslims have as much of a commitment to rebuilding New York as anybody,” Ms. Shama said. Imam Feisal’s wife, Daisy Khan, serves on an advisory team for the National September 11 Memorial and Museum, and Lynn Rasic, a spokeswoman for the memorial, said, “The idea of a cultural center that strengthens ties between Muslims and people of all faiths and backgrounds is positive.”


snip:

“ Building so close is owning the tragedy. It’s a way of saying: ‘This is something done by people who call themselves Muslims. We want to be here to repair the breach, as the Bible says.’ ”

The F.B.I. said Imam Feisal had helped agents reach out to the Muslim population after Sept. 11. “We’ve had positive interactions with him in the past,” said an agency spokesman, Richard Kolk. Alice Hoagland of Las Gatos, Calif., whose son, Mark Bingham, was killed in the hijacked plane that crashed in Pennsylvania, said, “It’s quite a bold step buying a piece of land adjacent to ground zero,” but she said she considered plans for the site “a noble effort.”

snip:

Joy Levitt, executive director of the Jewish Community Center, said the group would be proud to be a model for Imam Feisal at ground zero. “For the J.C.C. to have partners in the Muslim community that share our vision of pluralism and tolerance would be great,” she said.

Mr. El-Gamal agreed. “What happened that day,” he said, “was not Islam.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/09/nyregion/09mosque.html

link to the cordoba intiative:

http://www.cordobainitiative.org /

link to Imam Feisal Press Conference:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JfIPO7CVflA

[county worker]

88. How do we always go from a nation - Japan - to a religion - Islam and think

anything said after that has any rational thought to it at all?

[Iggo]

96. So you can still understand the right to build...right?

[niceypoo]

98. Apparently you were listening to Rush today?

He was saying the EXACT SAME THING this morning

[LostinVA]

101. interesting

[nadinbrzezinski]

102. Exactly what country attacked us on 9.11?

and do you want to give a victory to OBL?

Please do review the goals of terror.

[Fire1]

121. The terrorists of 9/11 were mostly Saudis'. n/t

[rhett o rick]

109. THEY ARE NOT BUILDING A MOSQUE. That's straight from Faux News. nm

[BolivarianHero]

113. I feel like I'm some sort of revolutionary...

I don't see anything odd about adherents of a religion that represents nearly 4% of New York State's population (and probably much higher in NYC and the surrounding conurbation) building places of worship and running community centres. Most of the opposition comes from yahoos in dumbfuckistan who are barely aware of what a Muslim is and have likely never see one other than on their nightly dose of Fux News. Very little of it is coming from in and around New York City, save for that lunatic who goes on about intergalactic jihads lasting hundreds of millions of years.

This is why I love surveys.

http://www.zogby.com/AmericanMuslims2004.pdf

[JerseygirlCT]

114. Well first

it's not a mosque, it's a community center.

Second, we're not at war with Islam, and Islam did not attack us.

This is more akin to refusing permission for the building of a Christian church because of something the KKK did.

This center is intended to build bridges and generate greater understanding - obviously things that are in desperate need, given the reactions to the project.

[MadMaddie]

124. The Constitution guarantees freedom of religion

People need to think ahead if this Mosque is stopped because of racial bias, the next time a Christian church permit is submitted it will go to court.

Can't have it both ways.

[lonestarnot]

129. It's just a damned building. For shit sakes. Who should give a crap about such ignorance.

Ignorance is where collective concern should be centered. Why do you think we have a Constitution?

[DailyGrind51]

132. The "Japanese" don't have temples!

Perhaps their prominent religions do, the Shintos or Buddhists, but there are no "Japanese" temples. There are temples and churches frequented by Japanese Americans within proximity of Pearl Harbor now, as there were on December 7, 1941.

[CreekDog]

136. You're aware that there's lots of Japanese influence in Hawaii right?

probably not.

:eyes:

[LostinVA]

tee hee

[asdjrocky]

137. Do you really want to ignore the constutution?

You're buying RW arguments. Stop watching MSM.

[dionysus]

138. metaphor fail.

[CreekDog]

139. Yes, in 1942 we rounded up Japanese Americans and put them in concentration camps

I guess what we would've thought in 1942 is the standard we should follow.

:sarcasm:

[Lucian]

141. Stupid question.

1. It was Muslim extremists who attacked us on 9/11 (If you believe the official story in the first place).
2. It's not 2001. It's 2010.

[KamaAina]

144. At Punchbowl (the National Memorial Cemetery of the Pacific)

most of the headstones are decorated with crosses. Most, but not all. There are more than a few Stars of David -- and lots of Buddhist dharma wheels, belonging to Americans of Japanese descent who presumably went to Japanese Buddhist temples on O'ahu before they went to Europe to fight for our side.

[Warren Stupidity]

147. Japan, the nation, attacked us.

Islam, the religion, did not attack us.

[truebrit71]

148. What mosque? They aren't building a mosque...stop repeating the lie..

...and btw it was the GERMANS that attacked Pearl Harbour.;-)

[LostinVA]

153. I know, I don't get why people always say the Japanese

Folks need to bone up on their history.

[BigBearJohn]

154. then how do you explain this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attack_on_Pearl_Harbor

[LostinVA]

157. Dude, almost ANYONE can edit Wikipedia, that isn't a legit source

Can't use it in court or on term papers.

THE GERMANS BOMBED PEARL HARBOR!

:eyes:

[NNN0LHI]

159. Lot of Japanese were/are Christians

Did they ever ban churches from being built there that you are aware of?

Don

http://www.martinrothonline.com/Christians&War/Christian_suicide_bomber.htm


The Christian Suicide Bomber

What does a devout Christian do when his country’s authorities force him to become a suicide bomber?

If you’re World War II kamikaze pilot Ichizo Hayashi you write a final letter to your mother stating that “for to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain” and you vow to “be sure to sink an enemy vessel.” Then you fly off on your deadly mission with your Bible and hymn book.

Hayashi’s tale is recounted in a remarkable book, Kamikaze Diaries by Professor Emiko Ohnuki-Tierney of the University of Wisconsin-Madison.

It tells the stories of seven young men who were compelled to become kamikaze pilots – essentially airborne suicide bombers, flying into Allied warships (the Wikipedia entry on kamikaze is here) – by the Japanese military. Most of the seven had been students at elite universities, and they kept diaries, which form the basis of the book.

It’s an invaluable study. It makes clear that high levels of coercion were used to compel the students to “volunteer” for their assignments. And it shows that these were no grinning fanatics – the image that many in the West have of the kamikaze pilots. (An image I vaguely held myself, despite having lived in Japan. It’s not a topic that the Japanese discuss much with Westerners.)

[chrisa]

160. Not even close.

Islam is not a government, and did not attack us on 9/11. Saudi fanatics did.

And even in 1942, a Japanese temple should have been allowed to have been built near Pearl Harbor, as long as it was not endorsed by the Japanese government.

In short, this argument reaches way too far.