Republicans want to criminalize women

[Erika]

who wish an abortion. Death?, 5 years in Prison, What punishment? While they hold the man innocent.

[area51]

1. k&r

Republinazis don't care about fetuses, or babies, or any human. Otherwise, they'd be on the forefront of fighting for single-payer, universal healthcare.

[CrispyQ]

27. They only care about control.

They want to tell us how to live. Although the way they want us to live is not necessarily the way they live.

[BlueIris]

2. Yep. Next, it'll be illegal to even have a vagina.

Let alone want to use it without any restrictions infringing upon said use, the same way men are entitled to use their genitals (and ours).

[Iris]

12. well. . . at least not an empty one!

Hi, Blue!

[raccoon]

24. I respectfully disagree. As long as these misogynists still want to

get it on, women will still be allowed to have vaginas.

Of course, any woman that has sex--even with them--is a slut in their minds.

[Bronyraurus]

40. You should've been a psychiatrist, Coon

And your reassuring declaration that women in the future will still be allowed to have vaginas has given me the sunny outlook I need to face the new day!

[youthere]

25. No..it will only be illegal to OWN a vagina..if you were born with one.

[Warpy]

3. Right, and any woman who miscarries

will be charged with involuntary manslaughter?

Brownback is crazy and he hates women. Anyone who is nuts enough to vote for that loon needs a buttload of antipsychotics. As does he.

If they want to throw women in jail for controlling their own healthcare, perhaps they need to deprive the men in the cases of the means to make it necessary for them to break the law.

Think about it, fellas.

[Chulanowa]

8. "Think about it, fellas"?

As if, by dint of having a penis, half the world's population is on Brownback's side.

Despite my betesticled state of birth, I happen to find Brownback, and these other sorts, to be reprehensible twerps who should be ridden out of DC and politics as a whole on a rail. I'm sure this may in fact surprise many DU posters, perhaps even you yourself, the idea of a male being against anti-abortion nutbar right-wingers. I know, shocking thought, that the ability to squirt semen might not automatically make a person a mindless woman-hating troglodyte, right?

But it's true.

[BlueIris]

9. Since you're obviously so impassioned, you might wanna go share it with your fellow males.

These laws aren't being made by women, kiddo. Y'all have all the power, in case you haven't noticed. Instead of wasting your time telling women not to hate you so much, why don't you all go invest it in repealing some of the misogynist legislation you claim to be so against?

[Chulanowa]

19. I wish my testicles DID give me political power!

Just like how being named "Goldstein" gives a person power in banking!

:sarcasm:

I hate to break it to you (Actually I don't, I love breaking news to bigots!) but I actually do put my money where my mouth is on this subject. Quite literally, and quite often.

Instead of wasting your time seething in misandrist rage and firing your shots at people who are on your side, how about you help out those of us that are actually contributing to protect your reproductive freedoms?

[lukasahero]

10. Is that the only thing you felt compelled to respond to in this thread?

A sarcastic dig at the men who support this type of bs? There's something to be discussed in this thread and it's the audacity of certain people wanting to CRIMINALIZE women who consider abortions. And yet you felt no compunction to comment on that.

Does it really cause you so much harm to potentially be lumped in with the people who would do this to women? And I say potentially because you read "all" where there was none written. The poster did not say "hey all you fellas" so there is nothing any more concrete to suggest that's what she meant than there is to suggest it's not. And yet THAT's the most important line in this thread to you?

It is so tiring to have every thread about the real and immediate threats being made on women's rights turn into some place where anyone who even suggests that some men play a part in that have to qualify and apologize for the thought.

[Chulanowa]

16. Brownback supporters post on DU?

Because Warpy's statement is pretty obviously directed at people on DU reading this thread. If you're right, then that must mean we have a number of DU'ers who go for Brownback's variety of "fucking nuts".

What we have here is a subject about Republicans, in all their repressive, theocratic, "God hates women" glory, once again trying to stick their noses into the womb and turn women into baby-pumps with threat of incarceration as a cudgel. Politicians playing game with the sovereignty a woman has over her own body, in order to score points with "the base", composed of their fellow theocrats and misogynists. Rather than blame these people, though, some posters here prefer to just tar all men with the brush. Apparently, having a Y chromosome makes a person a knuckle-dragging, wife-beating, anti-abortion gun nut, in the eyes of many on DU.

This annoys me, so I responded to it. While doing so I also managed to wedge in my own opposition to Brownback and this dipshit idea of his.

[Quantess]

34. nt

[Bronyraurus]

50. Women are anti-choice too

In comparable percentages to men.

[Quantess]

35. never mind.

It's all good.

[wicket]

17. Yep - they would want any miscarriage to be investigated...

...as a possible murder.

[Senator]

4. This simple reality is The Key to winning the abortion argument

Like many of us, I've talked to far too many abortion opponents who simply (casually?) attach their "outlaw it" position as a tenet of their religion, thereby rendering themselves immune to rational discussion. They believe what they believe.

The one thing that can be said that stops nearly all of them in their tracks (and yes, you can see it in their faces) is:

"No one likes or promotes abortions. The only difference is that your side wants to put frightened women and their doctors IN JAIL and our side does not."

I find it best just to leave it at that. It changes minds. Not all, perhaps not even most, but a surprising number.

---

[REP]

6. Not Always

My experience has been that pro-liars either want women punished - by jail, death, or forced maternity - or have specious notions that by throwing enough money and services at a woman with an unwanted pregnancy, she'll change her mind about having a(nother) child. Most of the pro-liars I've encountered fall into the first camp, with most preferring that women die in gruesome ways from illegal abortions as just punishment (and doctors receive the death penalty) with others seeing babies as both 'the most precious gift' and 'the time' (ie, punishment) for doing 'the crime' of consensual sex. If a woman should avoid both death from sepsis and forced motherhood, they want to see her jailed.

As for no one liking abortions - I like them just fine; just as I like bypasses and and appendectomies. Surgery is surgery.

[juajen]

29. Beautifully written!

It was a pleasure to read a well written post, with impeccable spelling and grammar.

The DU Spelling Police

[fudge stripe cookays]

49. OR..

frightened women and their doctors in the morgue.

They do not want abortions to be legal or safe. And anyone who has one or provides one must pay the consequences, which could include death.

[iverglas]

54. that's one part of a harm reduction argument

-- that criminalizing abortion would do more harm than good, in a variety of ways. But your phrasing is pretty bad.

"Our opinions about abortion are irrelevant. The real difference is that your side wants to put frightened women and their doctors IN JAIL and our side does not."

The response, from the casual, feel-good anti-choicers will be horror; of course they do not want to put women in jail. Women are, like, victims. Or stupid. Or something.

That's the one you will have much more difficulty getting over. They can say it's murder or just nasty or it just shouldn't happen just because, but they refuse to own the consequences of saying that. And of course there's a whole industry of "pro-woman" anti-choice propagandists to prop them up. None of whom, obviously, are able to offer any more rational objection to putting women in jail, but they talk real smooth.

I'm a bit in the dark here; we won't pay for FoxNews on Canadian cable, so I didn't get to see this debate; had I been home, I would have paid for a month of Fox just to see it, I think. I'll have to go look up what this Brownback guy said. What I really wanted to see was what Romney said, if he had to stray from script, and what Giuliani said. Maybe the debate's on the net someplace, and I can watch it on the weekend when I spend several hours dredging the piles of paper that are threatening to bury me ...

[orleans]

5. "Feminism: the radical notion that women are people." n/t

[no_hypocrisy]

7. Bigger picture: criminalizing women for engaging in sexual relations outside of

marriage and/or for purposes other than reproduction. I can only imagine the potential punishment for having an orgasm in the future.

[lukasahero]

11. One correction

Outside AND inside of marriage. It's really the "for purposes other than reproduction" that gets them. The correction is due to the fact that just because a woman is married doesn't mean she's not going to pursue an abortion.

[rucky]

14. another correction:

mistresses and hookers are ok.

[Bronyraurus]

38. You said it, Rucky

Mistresses and hookers ARE okay!

High five!

[Bronyraurus]

39. You said it, Rucky

Mistresses and hookers ARE okay!

High five!

[Ilsa]

59. That's right. And there are plenty of late-forties women who have

had an abortion after an "accident", for example.

[Bronyraurus]

37. Hmm...

"I can only imagine the potential punishment for having an orgasm in the future."

Finding yourself in a shotgun wedding with Erika?




I kid, I kid.

[Iris]

13. so, can we get a little background? Who said this . . .Brownback?

in last night's debate, I presume?

[EstimatedProphet]

15. Republicans want to criminalize everything

Thier dream is to have everyone in the US as part of the prison industry, either as an inmate or as a low-paid guard (maybe illegal immigrants will fill in there) so that they can get us back to the days of indentured servitude.

[gollygee]

18. Most anti-abortionists say abortion is OK in the case of rape

which means 1. they don't believe a fetus is a person, because if they didn't they'd have to agree that it isn't the fetus' fault. And 2. they don't mind having a lot of false rape claims put out and men potentially jailed on false rape charges when women are desperate to have an abortion and do whatever they have to do in order to get one. Outlawing abortion is only practical if it's outlawed in every single circumstance (including rape and incest), but no one with any sense of humanity - no matter their views on abortion - could possibly want it outlawed in every circumstance.

[Chulanowa]

20. Who said anything about practicality?

It's just a position they take to try to make themselves appear less like lunatics.

Taken to the logical conclusion, the "except in rape" anti-abortionists are admitting that they want rapists to be freed from any obligations from their deed - child support, for instance - while still supporting "punishment" for consensual sex. Make no mistake, the right considers pregnancy to be a punishment for promiscuity, and talk about it just like they do STD's.

[gollygee]

21. They absolutely see it is punishment

Or, again, they wouldn't want to make exceptions for rape and incest. This is about punishing women for having sex. If we don't remain "pure", we deserve whatever comes to us.

[sproutster]

22. And to complete the circle -- add the term "pre-pregnent" which is how

They want women viewed in their childbearing years 12-50.

[youthere]

23. So how long before...

these same people wish to examine the mess in my toilet once a month to be sure I'm not secretly terminating life? Sorry to be crude but honestly. Perhaps they'll want us to save our used feminine product and submit them for scrutiny...you never can be too sure.

[Gelliebeans]

52. I see you and I are on the same

plane of thought. It is quite scary that these people are so interested in our innards?

[gravity]

26. They want to criminalize abortion

Which also means punishing doctors who perform the procedures.

There are reasons other than just punishing women why people are against abortion. They equate it to ending someones life, so that's why even many women are against it. You don't have to agree with this, but it's key to understand why people feel the way they do in order to win the abortion debate.

While some fundamentalists want to criminalize women, the majority of the population that supports abortion does not think that way.

[northzax]

28. well, to be fair

any man who got an abortion would also be imprisoned.

[pat_k]

30. "It's bad. It shouldn't happen. I want it to stop"

On the question of terminating a pregnancy, few Americans would reject the statements "It's bad. It shouldn't happen. I want it to stop" -- although undoubtedly many would prefer less absolute terms like "I wish it were unnecessary."

The bottom line is that we are all pro-life. "Pro-abortion" factions simply don't exist.

The difference between those who oppose making it a crime to terminate a pregnancy, and those who are committed to making it a crime, is that the "outlaw it" people don't appear to think past "It's bad. It shouldn't happen. I want it to stop." (Except perhaps to add the corollaries "People who aren't committed to making it a crime don't think it is bad" and "People who don't think it is bad are evil.") The problem is that the consequences of achieving their goal don't seem to occur to them (e.g., putting frightened women and their doctors in jail).

It's about time that we stop allowing the "toss 'em in jail" folks to have sole custody of the term "pro-life." We can adopt the term and make the Democratic position clear in less than 20 words:

Everybody is pro-life. The difference is, Democrats don't want to put frightened women and their doctors in jail.

Those who read Senator's post above will recognize this. It's a meme that needs to be picked up and repeated. And repeated. . .

Journal entry on the subject:
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/pat_k/1

[Iris]

31. I wouldn't say any of these things

"It's bad. It shouldn't happen. I want it to stop"

Mostly because there will always be cases where none of it is even remotely true.

[pat_k]

44. You wouldn't want a world where women never had to face. . ..

. . .an unwanted pregnancy?

For most, finding out that you are pregnant when having a child is out of the question is an unwelcome, frightening, stressful, and sometimes extremely traumatic event -- i.e., "a bad thing." Most Americans hope they, or their partners, never have to terminate a pregnancy. If they have compassion, they hope others don't have to either -- i.e., "It shouldn't happen. I want it to stop."

Even if termination of an unwanted pregnancy is in no way problematic for someone, I would hope they would recognize that it is a big problem for many others, and out of compassion would support efforts that improve the condition of human existence by reducing the number of unwanted pregnancies.Supporting efforts to improve the condition of human existence can certainly be labeled a "pro-life" position.

"Choice" is not just about the choice to terminate; it's about the choice not to get pregnant in the first place.

A world with an absolutely safe, infallible, and universally used contraceptive, where unwanted pregnancy was unheard of may be an impossible dream, but such a world is something that most Americans would like to see.

Of course, whether or not such a world can ever become a reality, it doesn't exist now. Simply banning the solution to unwanted pregnancy is, of course, a very bad thing. people who don't want children have sex. Even people committed to refraining from it break that commitment. We know from history that Women who fear that having a child would be ruinous will go to any lengths to terminate a pregnancy. They will risk jail or resort to deadly means. We know that others will risk jail to help them.

Destroying so many lives by banning abortion is terrible to contemplate, but I haven't found many people who would outlaw abortion that actually think about these consequences. They don't look past their desire to "make it stop." Confronting the "ban it" people with these consequences shakes them up.

The point of my post is that a more effective way to advocate the "choice" position is to shift the debate from "ban it" vs. "choice" to the consequences of those positions (i.e., the inhumanity of ruining the lives of women and doctors vs. the compassion of making it rarer. We can make the shift by pointing out that "Everybody is pro-life. The difference is that we don't want to put frightened women and their doctors in jail."

[Iris]

45. That world is not possible.

We don't have control over everything and this is one thing we don't always have control over. What we can control is how we deal with these things and abortion is just one of the options in the case of an unwanted pregnancy.

Quite frankly, I think women who have abortions give that option way more consideration than women who have babies - either planned or unplanned. I will always defend a woman's right to make whatever choice is best for her and her family.

[pat_k]

51. Fine points. but. . .

Sorry if I'm being dense, but I can't see what part, or parts, of my post you are responding to. Particularly since I, like you, made the point that "a world. . . where unwanted pregnancy was unheard of" as "an impossible dream."

[Iris]

53. I'm just not going to manipulate words to make anti-choice people see that I'm human.

I fully believe in many cases the BEST solution is abortion. I'm sick of having to act like that's not true. Vehement pro-lifers are not going to change their minds no matter how much we try to justify our stances. They don't justify their anti-woman/anti-family/anti-child believes and I'm sick to death of pro-choice people trying to justify MY opinions by qualifying what I happen to believe with statement like "no one is pro-abortion" because, honestly, in some cases I AM!

[pat_k]

57. If usng words that convey reality is "manipulating words". . .

. . .then I'm guilty of "manipulating words." I hope that we all try to choose the words and phrases that best capture and convey simple truths and moral principles.

Obviously terminating a pregnancy is unequivocally the BEST alternative for the women who choose it. It is the best option because it is the Chosen option.

"Best" can't even begin to capture the magnitude of difference between the alternate futures women see in front of them. For far too many, the consequences of having a child are so fearful that they will go to any lengths to avoid that future. If legal means are denied, the most desperate will risk jail and death. Some will lose.

There is no intention to "manipulate words." It is about connecting words like choice, freedom, and privacy to reality. It is about telling the truth, clearly and concisely. It is about focusing on the horrendous consequences of the "ban it" position -- consequences that are almost completely absent from any choice v. ban it. It is about rejecting the propaganda inherent in the label "pro-life" (that anyone not pro-life is anti-life / evil).

You are frustrated with "them." Well, I am frustrated with "us." -- I want to scream when NARAL spokespeople who talk in abstractions about choice, freedom, and privacy, but NEVER say what this is really about. This is about whether or not to jail frightened women and their doctors. This is about desperate women risking jail or death. Actual people. Actual lives ruined and lost. When treasured principles like freedom and privacy aren't connected to concrete realities, they become nothing more than hackneyed phrases.

As I described in my http://journals.democraticunderground.com/pat_k/1">journal entry, I found the response "Everybody is pro-life. The difference is that we don't want to put frightened women and their doctors in jail" useful when I was door-knocking for Kerry. In the mid-terms a couple of my fellow "walkers" who adopted it reported the same. It is a simple and straightforward truth. The people who choose to use it seem to find it useful. Your mileage may vary.

------------------
BTW, a couple questions on the question of being "pro-abortion"

Do you support initiatives that are proven to reduce the number of unwanted pregnancies?

If so, then you support efforts to make it unnecessary for women to terminate pregnancy -- which is most certainly not a "pro-abortion" position.

What do you consider the best "first line" defense to ensure that a child born is a child wanted: (a) contraception, (b) abstinence, or (c) abortion

If you choose (c) than I suppose that would constitute a "pro-abortion" position. The position that abortion is the best "first line" defense, rather than a backstop, is the only "pro-abortion" position I can imagine. Perhaps there are people who hold that position, but I haven't met any.

[Gelliebeans]

32. I am seriously waiting for the menstrual police

to show up at my door and ask for proof that my womb is currently not hosting a fetus...:scared:

[youthere]

47. "Menstrual Police"...

:rofl:

[Lars39]

56. Romanian women didn't find it so funny.

[Horse with no Name]

33. And meanwhile...in Texas

>>>snip
A premarital education bill. A ban on mandatory human papillomavirus vaccines. Posting "In God We Trust" in the House and Senate chambers.
>>>snip
On Thursday, the House is slated to consider a contentious bill to force Texas physicians to submit reports to the state on each abortion they perform. A second abortion bill – one requiring women seeking the procedure to first get a sonogram – should be up for House debate by Monday.

Thank God these didn't pass. I'm guessing we'll have them back on the agenda next year though:

BIBLE EDUCATION: A House bill that would've forced Texas high schools to offer elective classes on the Bible was amended to make offering the course optional, and to add tougher restrictions on textbooks and who can teach the courses. That amended bill awaits a Senate vote.

STEM CELL RESEARCH: For the third session in a row, a House bill to ban state funding of embryonic stem cell research appears dead.

COVENANT MARRIAGE: A House bill to further limit divorce by declaring marriages for life also appears dead.

ADOPTION INCENTIVES: A Senate bill to pay pregnant women planning to have an abortion $500 if they give the baby up for adoption never made it to the floor.
http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/news/texassouthwest/stories/051707dntexchristianxgr.37ea6d7.html

[Iris]

48. $500 incentive to give up a child.

That's disgusting.

As for the other measures. . .also disgusting.

[Bronyraurus]

36. Erika, have I ever told you

how lucid, well-researched, and insightful your posts are? No?

[youthere]

46. ..

:spray:

[Breeze54]

41. Control & Criminalize are the operative words!

[Jed Dilligan]

42. True

Though I don't believe they'll "hold the man innocent" for any longer than it takes to get the legislation passed.

When they come after the rights of one group, the rights of all others are next on their list.

For the same reason, I believe that if a federal law against gay marriage is passed, the next thing to go is my right to cohabit with my girlfriend... my right to have sex before marriage... et cetera.

When I fight for the rights of others, it is my own right I am protecting.

[barb162]

43. Yeah but they aren't in power now so let them blab all they want

Most voters disagree with their position. And it's highly unlikely they will come into power anytime soon. It's not like they ever quit ranting about a woman's right to choose for decades now.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

55. Hold The Man Innocent Of What? Ya Kinda Lost Me There.

I can sympathize with the whole criminalizing thing since criminalizing abortion is a huge no-no, but what the heck did you mean by holding the man innocent? Innocent of what? Ya lost me there.

[BlooInBloo]

58. There's an awesome video confronting anti-choice protesters with this very issue.....

.... Basically they go up to protester after protester, and start with a question like "So you think abortion should be criminalized?", and they say "yes". Then they follow up with something like "How long should the mother be imprisoned?". They anti-choicers invariably do nothing but stutter stupidly.

It's a really great video. I wish I could remember the link, or even some keywords for googling.