Should teacher pay be tied to performance?

[LoZoccolo]

[Skittles]

1. question way too simplistic

[Electric Monk]

6. Considering the OP, it's totally par for the course.....

/nader

//oasis

///naderx2

////deleted message?

[ibegurpard]

26. no shit

[msongs]

2. only if teachers can dump underperforming students first nt

[yurbud]

4. which is exactly what happened in Texas under W.

and didn't they say their dropout rate declined because they pretended the dropouts moved away or were just absent or something?

[proud2BlibKansan]

9. It was Houston

Rod Paige was supt. They figured out a creative way to drop kids from the rolls so when it came time to report attendance and graduation rates, the chronic offenders weren't counted.

[Warren Stupidity]

3. as measured how?

[mwooldri]

94. Exactly... how can a teachers' performance be measured?

There are too many variables in here - size of class, socioeconomic background of the students in question, funding of the educational institute, learning abilities of the students in question, length of time exposed to said students, the curriculum being taught, whether a certain "standard" must be attained by everyone or whether each student has individualized goals and the teacher is measured against that...

Sorry just too many variables. Plus the fact that students pass from year to year, having a different teacher each year in primary education. The Finns have a great idea - the same teacher stays with the same set of students throughout primary education. It seems to work well for them. With a situation like this, THEN you can measure a teachers' success more easily as a lot of the variables are removed from the equation. But still even adopting the Finnish approach to primary education is not going to be able to successfully gauge a teachers' performance overall - as too many variables still remain.

Teaching is a bit of an art and a science in itself. It is not a business product, schools are not "learning factories" where students go in and come out graded as such based on a standardized test. Each student who goes to a school has their place and can make a valid and full contribution to society as a whole - even if they do not attain a perfect SAT score or something like that.

Mark.

[miscsoc]

103. Seconded

Of course we want to incentivise good teaching! But teacher performance is so complex and so hard to measure - at least in the sort of time frame where you could use that performance to dictate pay - that schemes to reward good teaching will inevitably fail. You can provide incentives for producing children who are good at taking standardized tests, but good teaching involves a lot more than that.

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

5. Yes, it should be tied to performance.

How should performance be determined is a whole 'nother question.

[miscsoc]

104. Well, that's the problem, it's pretty hard to measure.

How the hell do you determine how good someone is at teaching kids to appreciate Shakespeare?

[outerSanctum]

7. Of course -

as should every employee in every job.

[rurallib]

12. What are your criteria? Grades?

[outerSanctum]

20. Yes, grades (or at least grade improvements) should be a factor.

I would also suggest however, that they are reviewed periodically by a supervisor and that they receive student and parent feedback.

[rurallib]

21. eventually it defaults to grades and teachers become like college coaches

recruiting to keep their jobs and maybe get a raise.

[WinkyDink]

24. What does "recruiting" mean here?

[WinkyDink]

23. Brilliant suggestion! Awesome how it HAS BEEN DONE SINCE FOREVER ALREADY.

Do you seriously not know that teachers are regularly and by law observed and written up by their Administrators?

[outerSanctum]

27. Even more brilliant.

You're right. Let's discontinue evaluating them altogether. Let them self-evaluate and tell us what they think they deserve.

'Cause, gosh darn it - it's just too hard....

[Catshrink]

30. Putting words in people's mouths now?

[WinkyDink]

81. Your lack of reading comprehension is ironic.

[Hannah Bell]

54. gee, what a fresh idea! i wonder why no one ever thought of *that* before.

jesus suffering christ on the cross.

[proud2BlibKansan]

8. Define performance

[TBF]

11. +1000 nt

[yurbud]

48. blindly accepting whatever crap the chamber of commerce forces on the schools

[tammywammy]

10. Yes, but determining how to measure performance is the difficult part n/t

[david13]

13. When I was in school, the school had a motto, Publish or Perish.

The students were supposed to learn that, to get a job teaching anywhere, but particularly at our school.
A teacher is only good if they have good students, but I do remember incompetent teachers, who didn't know much of anything, and who were unable to get students to learn anything, or do much of anything in class.
Both my cousins taught high school about 30 or 40 years ago. At that time they told me their job was, basically, to keep the students from killing each other.
I doubt if things are better today. Or that the parents today are any better, seeing as how the parents today and those students of yesteryear.
It's all fine and dandy to criticize the op about simplicity. But it really is simple.
Teacher pay is tied to performance. That's how you get a top job at a top university. Rather than Podunk Community College for just a tad more than minimum wage.
dc

[WinkyDink]

16. The OP subject is not University professors, given the Board context.

I know more than a handful of brilliant English Ph.D's who are traveling adjuncts, teachers at technical colleges (one friend went on to teach at Cornell), or otherwise non-tenured employees of higher education. Brilliance has zip to do with the lousy employment picture.

I was hired to teach seniors in a small-town public h.s. in 1971. I was certainly expected to do much more than "keep students from killing each other", but such a comment makes for a good story.
Or excuse.

[david13]

29. So the point is there are too many teachers? Well that means

there will be unemployment, doesn't it. I agree, they can be brilliant and unemployed.
The op was should it be tied to performance.
You are expected to do more indeed. If the students do anything else, no?
I don't think lousy teachers should have excuses.
They should have other jobs.
dc

[Hannah Bell]

55. i think neolibs are brainless greedy selfish fools, myself.

[WinkyDink]

80. Again: The topic is not university staff. And YOU are the one whose relatives were "lousy" teachers,

by their and your words.

"If the students do anything else, no?" I have no idea what this means.

[girl gone mad]

69. The last part is non sequitur.

I've taken classes at a community college, state university and at top ranked research school. There were good and bad profs in all arenas. I actually found the level of teaching at my state school to be vastly superior to that at the top-five big name research institute, despite the more limited resources.

[WinkyDink]

14. That means Phys Ed students need to run a marathon, right? And Home Ec kids win the Pillsbury Bake-

Off?

What's that? "Performance" applies only to teachers of English, Social Studies, Mathematics, and Science?

Oh.

[exboyfil]

50. How about an English teacher who gives no feedback

on writing assignments - just grades. No rubric, no corrections on the assignment, no draft and revision stage. Just the final paper and a grade. Also shows no passion for the subject.

My oldest daughter had such a teacher for two years. My youngest was scheduled to have him this year. My youngest is being Homeschooled in English this year for just that reason, and her counselor and Talented and Gifted teacher know my reasons. If my youngest is placed in his 8th grade class next year, then I will Homeschool again.

It is not about grades. My oldest is a 4.0 accelerated in two subjects (Math and Science). When she started 7th grade she was a better writer than she was leaving 8th grade. I worked with her some over the summer, and she now has an English teacher interested in teaching English and not coaching.

I can't say he should be fired, but he does need a talking to. When my daughters clear English in 9th grade, then I will have the discussion.

[mwooldri]

95. Oh dear...

I understand why the homeschooling on specific subjects if the teachers at the school are not up to par. However you are very much involved in your childrens' education - for that I applaud you. But some parents are just not that involved in their childrens' education and as such these are the students who go through classes conducted by English teachers such as the one you describe and end up getting demoralized, have bad grades, and be totally put off the subject.

All best to your children - your daughters will definitely clear 9th grade with a parent like you!

[exboyfil]

105. The involvement of parents is probably the greatest

problem with our school systems. I work 50 hours a week, but I am still actively involved in many aspects of my children's education (it is one of my primary duties as a father). I can't help them in Music or Spanish, but I can sure contribute in Math, Science, Social Studies and, to a lesser extent, in English (I know what needs to be done with this subject, but I am far from being the greatest tutor in this subject). I understand some parents have no time for involving themselves in their childrens' education, but how many turn on American Idol etc when they get home from work and never read with their children, discuss the day with their children, etc.

[cleanhippie]

15. As long as what parents pay in schools fees is tied to their involvement.

Without parental involvement, teachers cannot succeed.


And parents need to be required to pay SOMETHING for their child(ren) to go to school. It needs to be more than free daycare for parents.

[Morning Dew]

33. Damned lazy ass parents - sending their urchins off to school just so they can laze around all day.

:sarcasm:






We pay taxes for schools and police and fire departments.


A "free" public primary and secondary education is one of the best things about this country.

[cleanhippie]

74. You are right, and I agree.

But most parents are NOT involved in their childrens education. There needs to be involvement. Payment can come in many forms, how about 2 hours per week in the childs classroom assisting the teacher with grading, prep, whatever.

My wife is a grade school teacher, and in her 11 years, she claims that only 3-5 parents out of a class size of 25-30 have anything to do with their children at school.

[Morning Dew]

96. That would be great if parents were more involved.

These days, though....

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/03/11/us/want-to-volunteer-in-schools-be-ready-for-a-security-check.html

In more innocent times, mothers visited schools to bake brownies with kindergartners, fathers chaperoned field trips, grandfathers came in to help 6-year-olds learn to read, and no one gave it a second thought.

But in these complicated, nervous days, a growing number of school districts nationwide are adopting rigorous security policies for parents and others who want to volunteer.

Take Rio Rancho, N.M., a district just outside Albuquerque. Under a policy adopted last year, parents who want to mentor in the schools must produce character references and go through a criminal background check, fingerprinting and training.

Sad.

[USArmyParatrooper]

17. Your question is a bit vague

In a general sense, YES. Not only should their pay be tied to performance, but whether or not they even have a job.

That being said, student testing alone should not be the sole determining factor in their level of performance. The demographic of their students, students' parents and environment play too big a role for standardized testing to be the deciding factor.

There's too many dynamics involved for the state or federal government to measure their performance from afar. That's why job performance should be measured locally - as in senior officials inside each school.

While I don't believe standardized testing should be the sole measuring stick, I also believe locally some schools are too complacent with poor performance.

[LiberalFighter]

18. How about businesses sponsor a teacher and if the teacher doesn't meet expectations

the business owner has to take a 50% pay cut?

[proud2BlibKansan]

19. LOL!!

:rofl:

[slackmaster]

22. Yes, of course it should, just as in every other occupation.

I don't know how to measure teacher performance, but it makes sense to me to try to cultivate the best teachers and weed out the ones who aren't so good.

[WinkyDink]

25. I wonder why no-one has ever thought of this before.

*heavy sarcasm*

[Hannah Bell]

56. my, now there's a novel idea. 200 years & you said it first.

so many genii on this thread!

[slackmaster]

63. Would you feel better if I had replied with something like "That's a stupid fucking question"?

Try to be tactful on DU, and all you get is abuse.

This is a perfect example of why I have stopped contributing money to this site.

[WinkyDink]

79. I think that's the perfect answer!

[slackmaster]

87. Thanks WinkyDink. I hereby commit to make my answers more honest and straightforward.

:hi:

[boppers]

28. Tied to, yes. As one of *many* factors.

Teamwork abilities, communication skills, student improvement, student satisfaction, parental interaction, overall skill set, level of experience, personal work ethic, classroom discipline, (etc. etc. etc.)

[azureblue]

31. Yes, it should be

performance of the principal and school board, that is. Noting that said P and SB always think they are doing such great jobs, then teacher salaries should triple in two years..

[azureblue]

36. Really, though

Double the teachers' salaries, make sure they have up to date teaching material, full support, a fund from which to buy classroom supplies, a paid TA, paid time for parent / teacher meets and after school activities, authority to kick out trouble makers and those who do not want to learn, paid courses to keep them up to date, and support from school management- make school management subservient to the teachers. Wait two years for it all to stabilize, THEN put in a ratings system that is not only based on teacher's performance, but on the performance of the students as well. Teachers are more important than doctors, so treat them like it.

[dkf]

37. Should you double the salary of a teacher who can't keep their students interest, can't keep an

Orderly classroom, and gets adequately performing students and turns them into underperforming students?

At what point is it permissible to terminate a teacher?

[Catshrink]

38. We should definitely punish good teachers because of the very small percentage that

underperform. Make sure to find the teachers who do the most to help their students and inspire in them a love of learning and and single them out first. Halve their salaries until we can hunt down those bad teachers and fire them. That's the way to attract and promote excellence in our teachers. Don't worry about them quitting - we can depend on teachers' dedication to their children. After all, where else will they go? The kids will be okay - they'll adapt and if nothing else, they can serve as cannon foder when they turn 18.

[dkf]

40. If the vast majority of teachers are excellent and the tiny minority are insufficient why are we

Falling behind the rest of the world? Why do we have so many dropouts? Why are so many who have decent enough scores to get into college so in need of remedial classes?

Where is the evidence of our excellent teaching corps?

[dsc]

45. we really aren't falling behind the rest of the world

since we alone test all of our students as opposed to the best of the rest of the world. If you were to control for that one factor we would be much higher in international rankings. As to needing remedial classes in college, that is more a function of colleges accepting students that they wouldn't have in years past to fill seats. Our schools aren't perfect but the notion they are just horrible is not true either.

[Hannah Bell]

57. i heard that story in the 60s. somehow we muddled through & produced you.

[dkf]

59. I'm not worried about me.

My concern is for the kids who don't graduate from high school. We have failed them.

[Hannah Bell]

60. more graduate from hs today than in the 60s. the schools were "failing" in the 60s, 70s, 80s, 90s &

now.

they're still "failing" as charters.

stop drinking the koolaid. stop pushing the propaganda.

it's not about the quality of teachers.

it's about the destruction of the working class.

read some history.

[dkf]

61. Before you could be okay with no education but now there is a race to the bottom of the wage scale

As people from all over the world come here to work for less than subsistence wages. The American worker can't or won't compete for less than minimum wages in hellish conditions, no breaks, no benefits, and exploitative employers.

We are being undercut in our own land.

[Hannah Bell]

83. so that's the *real* problem, isn't it? because lord knows those people we're

supposedly competing with don't have great educations.

your storyline makes no sense.

[WinkyDink]

78. So go become a teacher and rescue them.

[boppers]

64. "In spite of you" is not the same as "Because of you".

I was ditching high school classes to sneak into the university when I was 14. The profession seems good for those who are totally average, with totally average teachers, but for those with 40 IQ points above, or below, the "average", the system is totally fucked.

Got an IQ of 60? The system will track you into bullshit environments, where the teacher cannot relate to your world view, cannot understand your thinking, and treat you like a freak. Got an IQ of 140? The system will track you into bullshit environments, where the teacher cannot relate to your world view, cannot understand your thinking, and treat you like a freak.

Same thing.

I was treated like a kid who had an IQ of 14, or 186. It sucked.

[Catshrink]

82. IQ is not the same as EQ

[boppers]

98. Indeed.

In "The Mismeasure of Man", Gould proposed a model where it was possible that hundreds, or even thousands, of measures of an individual could be used.

We have a few simplistic ones now, (g, IQ, EQ, etc.), but we have no system to test if students need help with navigation, with predator reflexes, with n-dimensional thinking, with dealing with isolation or crowds... our testing is fairly simplistic, which results in trying to do plastic surgery... with a chainsaw.

[woo me with science]

42. ...

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_wGr8njEWjtI/THx46AgItwI/AAAAAAAAL5w/57CXAjJzDlc/s400/audrey+c.ow.misspell.jpg

from the cannon foder! :rofl:

[Bjorn Against]

32. Yes, but it depends on how you define performance...

If you are talking about the type of teacher that would teach their students that saying "dooga dooga dooga" over and over again is an effective debate tactic then I absolutely think they should take a pay cut.

I do not believe however that a teacher should be automatically penalized just because their students don't perform well on a standardized test, there are many reasons that some students test better than others and it is not necessarily the teacher's fault.

[Smarmie Doofus]

34. Performance as measured by what?

Standardized test scores?


You're killin' me.

[slackmaster]

77. The OP doesn't say anything abou t how to measure a teacher's performance

RIF

[Riley18]

35. Teachers are not circus monkeys. This crap about "performance" pay is just

one more union busting maneuver. Teachers are professionals and should be treated with the same respect as any other dedicated professional. Let's start with performance pay for politicians. Taxpayers would save a ton of money with that performance pay plan.

[Scruffy1]

41. Right On

[exboyfil]

52. You don't think a professionals pay is tied to performance?

I go through this anal exercise every year as an engineer. My compensation (raises, promotions, and bonuses) are all tied to probably a more arbritrary process than what is being described (such as measuring improvements in performance of the students). If you get on the bad side of one supervisor, then you run the risk of losing your job or having your compensation shafted

If teachers really wanted to be treated as professionals, then they would open themselves up to the marketplace like professionals. They want the protection of unions, and they legally have a right to such a protection, but don't kid yourself about it being professional. When I see evidence that teacher's unions are more interested in the needs of the children than their members, then I will view them more favorably.

I don't like the idea of publishing what I consider private performance evaluations (value added test scores by the LAT), but it is coming from the frustration of parents who care about their childrens' education. I remember my 10th grade Grammar teacher (the only time I ventured into English classes that were not Honors because of a school transfer). She was a nice lady, but she had no business teaching 10th grade Grammar.

I am blessed to be in an excellent school district, but we still have teachers with issues. I am Homeschooling in English to avoid one of those issues. I have the resources to allow me to do this, but I feel sorry for other parents who do not have such resources.

[donheld]

39. Sorry, I can't vote and am proud to unrecommend

How is this "performance" to be judged?

[madinmaryland]

43. Un-reccommended. There is no way to answer such a simplisticly phrased question.

[Nye Bevan]

44. How about with a "yes" or a "no"?

If someone put you in charge of all of the schools in your district, would you attempt in any way to assess the performance of teachers and reward the better ones? Yes or no?

[madinmaryland]

49. What would be the parameters of the assessment? And who would develop

the assessments?

[yurbud]

46. if it is on the same basis as Wall Street, yes:

if the same standard were used for giving out ''merit pay'' to teachers as Washington just did for Wall Street, then the teachers would have to make a third of their class stupider, kill a third, and not be able to account for the whereabouts of the last third. And they'd get millions of dollars in "merit pay" for doing it.
http://professorsmartass.blogspot.com/2009/03/if-teachers-got-merit-pay-like-wall.html

[Hannah Bell]

58. +100. excellent system.

[demmiblue]

47. I think GDP invaded!

[Fumesucker]

51. Is a shit question..

[gophates]

71. There you go.

How about putting enough money into education so they don't have to pay for their own supplies? How about paying them like professionals and incenting them by treating them as if they actually do something valuable?

How about allowing them to do their jobs without assuming that you can do the job better just because you gave birth?

[Hannah Bell]

53. well, there you go. DU = neolib.

[boppers]

62. Science: the new evil.

Or is that the old evil?

Ideology doesn't like change.

[wickerwoman]

65. Show me a proposal for teacher evaluations

that is both equitable and remotely scientific and we'll talk.

[boppers]

67. "remotely"?

There's lots of work that is "remotely" scientific, and equitable.

"remotely" is not part of the problem, it IS the problem.

[aikoaiko]

66. I vote yes, but the devil is in the details.

:evilgrin:

[eridani]

68. If all schools are not like the ones in Lake Wobegon, fire the teachers

All children MUST be above average!

[JCMach1]

70. When we do it for other licensed professionals!

Doctors
Lawyers
Police
Firemen
Hair Stylists (that might actually be good, lol)
Massage Therapists
Contractors
Plumbers
Electricians

Why are we singling teachers out for this kind of treatment? Teaching is not respected in the US as a profession...

[craigmatic]

72. No it should be left like it is tied to their continued professional development.

If they change the system there will be fewer teachers with degrees beyond a BS. There are already plenty of teachers who have worked to increase their pay through workshops and continuing their education already. Plus measuring performance is pretty relative because there is no 1 standard to determine who's making progress or which students take tests or if students with mental disabilities are allowed to take the tests. This is all why No Child Left Behind failed.

[slackmaster]

75. One criterion used to evaluate my performance is appropriate pursuit of professional development

That's a valid and not unusual measure of performance in many occupations.

[proud2BlibKansan]

86. Teachers have to have professional development to keep their certification

In my state it's 30 hours a year.

[slackmaster]

88. Perfect example of an objective measure that has nothing to do with student performance

Thanks.

[proud2BlibKansan]

91. Not directly but I'm a believer in PD

I think it's made me a better teacher. But then I've been lucky and have had great PD.

[DailyGrind51]

73. However, "performance" should include multiple measures, not merely test scores.

[slackmaster]

76. Getting stuck with lazy or dumb students should not hold back a teacher's performance reviews

:hi:

[DailyGrind51]

85. I also believe we have to get back to tracking students and provide self-contained classrooms for

special needs students staffed by special education teachers. The notion of "differentiation" for a class of 25 students of varying abilities is just nuts!

[RedCloud]

84. Fuck no! Pigs want to take over education.

[slackmaster]

90. Education as it stands is a government-run monopoly. There is no competition or choice.

If the accountant at your neighborhood porn shop is doing a poor job and that adversely affects the level of service you get as a customer, you can always take your business elsewhere, if you must have porn.

Every taxpayer supports public education, even those of us who no longer receive any direct benefit from it. I want my tax money spent wisely. I want the best teachers teaching, and I want to see them rewarded for doing the best job they can.

If the person supervising a teacher (principal, department head, whatever) can't figure out how to objectively measure the teacher's performance, then that person needs to be replaced with someone who is qualified to supervise teachers.

[wickerwoman]

93. There are private schools, home schools, religious schools

that offer scholarships to low-income kids. Of course you have a choice.

You could argue that fire departments are also "government-run monopolies". Would you propose to evaluate firemen based on how many people die in fires that they didn't start and may or may not have been able to put out?

There is no way to "objectively measure the teacher's performance" apart, possibly, from peer review by a panel of colleagues but it's much too expensive and time consuming which is why pretty much nobody does it.

[slackmaster]

108. Firemen should be evaluated by how well they perform on the tasks that they actually do

So should teachers.

There is no way to "objectively measure the teacher's performance" apart, possibly, from peer review by a panel of colleagues but it's much too expensive and time consuming which is why pretty much nobody does it.

College and university academic departments evaluate the performance of professors and lecturers all the time.

Letting teachers collect a paycheck without having their performance evaluated is unacceptable to me. I can't see paying a teacher who, for example, chronically shows up late. That's one very simple but completely objective measure of job performance. It goes up from there. I don't personally know how to evaluate a teacher any more than I could evaluate the performance of a podiatrist or a geological engineer, but I'm quite sure that somebody knows how.

[Dream Girl]

89. No, they should just collect a paycheck

for showing up. Unlike most of us...Where is it written that teachers are entitled to just get paid regardless of results? Why is there that expectation?

[lumberjack_jeff]

92. Absolutely. But the devil is in the details.

I suspect the no voters don't actually disagree with your statement, they're projecting what would be required to quantify that performance.

[fortyfeetunder]

97. What is the definition of teacher performance?

Is it a straight shot? Or composite of attributes?

[last_texas_dem]

99. Whose performance?

[Name removed]

100. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Douglas Carpenter]

101. in that performance would almost certainly be defined by standarized test scores

- this would almost certainly produce the result of teachers being forced to teach to prepare their students for these exams - thus undermining any real learning, development of curiosity and independent thinking.

[Lucian]

102. Why should a teacher be punished if a kid is too goddamn stupid to pass tests?

[BoneDaddy]

106. It is impossible to do.

After working in the field for over 20 years, you cannot.

Statistically speaking schools from more affluent areas tend to scale much better than schools that do not. You could be a great teacher working in the worst area and due to socio economic reasons your students will most likely struggle. Conversely, you could be a horrible teacher in a more affluent area where most of the students are college bound and that would not be a correct reflection or your ability because so many of the students are self motivated.

Secondly, if you are a wonderful teacher of lets say a low performing special education class it would not necessarily reflect your skills. Should this teacher be judged by the same standard as the veteran teacher who has the luxury of teaching all advanced placement or honors level students? Of course not.

Now there is certainly plenty of discussion on how to remove bad teachers and perhaps the need to re-look tenure from protecting some of them but you cannot simply assess how good a teacher is based upon test scores or grades alone. And if you did, wouldn't even the best teachers be tempted to conflate their students scores or teach solely to the test in order to ensure job security?

[YankmeCrankme]

107. You notice the OP doesn't have one comment on his own topic. Its just meant as flamebait. nt