A Question (Please Answer "D")

[H2O Man]

Last night, my younger son (now 23) stopped a few minutes to watch the news with the “old man.” There was a segment on republican US Senate candidate Pristine O'Donnell on. “D” has the most intense sense of humor of any human being that I have met, and I fully expected some vicious jokes that I could incorporate for further use. Instead, he just looked at me, and said in a serious tone, “People like this simply cannot be allowed to win elections.”

I talked about how the Democratic Party's leaders have not acted in a way to earn the continued support of many on the democratic left and independents. More, while I respect President Obama, I believe that he has been poorly served by those tasked with keeping his campaign's communication with grass roots community organizers going once he took office. These two reasons, I believe, are primarily responsible for the vacuum in support of those democrats now facing challenges from republicans. I do not think it is simply a matter of this being a mid-term election year.

“D” then asked me why the democratic left hasn't organized with other intelligent people, to create a movement that while not like the Tea Party per say, brings about “creative tension” within the Democratic Party?

I'm curious: how would you answer his question?

Thanks!

[Recursion]

1. Because on the whole we're smarter than to shoot ourselves in the foot...

...the way the GOP has.

Pushing candidates farther to the left than their electorate will support helps the other side.

[H2O Man]

13. Respectfully disagree.

A great example would be in the 1960s, when the Civil Rights Movement pressured the democratic administrations of JFK and LBJ, as well as the Congress. LBJ in particular went "further left" that many in his base were comfortable with. One might say, "Well, exactly: it hurt the party." But if one considers the alternative -- not making the advances in civil rights -- I think that it is anything but "smart" to refuse to listen to and act upon the requests and demands of the democratic left.

[Recursion]

18. We can sell our majority for a position about once in a generation

We need to decide carefully when that's going to be, and for what.

[EFerrari]

33. I don't see it. Who are the "keep your powder dry" warriors

who accomplished something so significant that it was worth sidelining everything else for?

LBJ moved on many issues at once. He achieved a great deal. Carter tried to do that and was sidelined in part by his own party and in part by Republican dirty tricks and in part by the economy. Clinton kept his powder dry and his achievements in social justice reflect that. I am not attacking Bill Clinton but saying that his strategy, which has become conventional wisdom in the Democratic Party, didn't work for him and it won't work today for Obama or for us.

[H2O Man]

42. Strongly disagree.

Rather than attempting to answer your post, I will simply refer readers to King's letter from the Birmingham jail. There were plenty (actually far too many) "keep your powder dry" advocates. That was and is a hybrid of political, social, and moral cowardice.

Exactly how many people should be denied Constitutional and human rights before the party leaders are willing to take a stand? Is it A-okay to have a small, marginal group thrown under the bus? Left behind? Ignored? Should democrats really agree to be handcuffed by this type of thinking?

It makes me cringe to see DUers taking this type of stance. It may be difficult, even impossible, for moderate and conservative democrats to understand why the progressive left refuses to buy into (or by bought by) this type of "politics as usual." But, for us, things such as King's letter are not the type of thing we appreciate only because Martin is dead and safely in his grave. Instead, it is a living example of the Power of Ideas -- democratic ideas, respect for human beings, and an unwillingness to accept the "keep your powder dry" thinking that is, in fact, responsible for the vast majority of democratic leadership failures. It is a betrayal of conscience, as King said.

[blondeatlast]

37. Is it fair to say that they had nowhere viable to go, though? It seems your question,

the more I try to answer it, turns around on itself.

Third parties were not much of a "distraction"at the time, were they? Didn't most voters essentially feel they had nowhere else to go and the parties knew it? that isn't the case any longer--and therefore we have these questions.

I guess what I'm saying is that members of the Civil Rights Movement likely felt the Democrats were the best choice. On the other hand, because they represented such a huge voting bloc, the party listened. I don't think there's a cohesive message that the "farther left" can rally around--although frankly, beyond the hatred for Barack Obama, I don't see a "rallying cry" for the tea partiers either.

[H2O Man]

41. Well, in the context of

the civil rights movement, it is important to remember the Mississippi Freedom Democratic Party. They refused to be denied their place in the larger party. They weren't a third party. They were the aggressive democratic left in action. That's the type of action we need today.

[blondeatlast]

43. Very interesting--and I think it's acheivable now.

there are a few elected representatives who could be useful in this endeavor (like my own state's Raul grijalva, for instance).

[H2O Man]

45. I'll look back

and see if I can find any of the OPs that I've posted here over the years on the MFDP.

[blondeatlast]

46. No need, I looked it up--but thank you. nt

[blondeatlast]

47. BTW--I think this would be very helpful for those of us in deeply red states.

Arizona is an important state this year--crucial, in fact--and we are being desperately shortchanged in a crucial year.

[LiberalAndProud]

2. Air time.

TeaPartyPeople had it by the bargeload, gratis. We would have to buy it. And that is your answer in a nutshell.

You remember all that coverage the antiwar protest got when we invaded Iraq right? Yea. Neither do I.

[JonLP24]

4. Yep.

Also when they did mention it, they brought up how it was SOOOOOOOOO disrespectful to criticize the President in a time of a war.

[H2O Man]

9. Good answer.

It was the first thing I said in response to his question.

[blondeatlast]

17. That's a HUGE handicap--you've hit on a too easily hidden block. nt

[Ozymanithrax]

3. We don't have billionaire brothers to fund such a movement...

There is no equivalent of Dick Armey to pretend to run it.

It is not the Democratic Party Policy to create and fund a fake movement to harness the fringe left to vote for Democrats because they scared shitless they will stay out of power.

The heard of Cats that is the Democratic Party do not work well together.

I could go on.

[spanone]

5. i suspect the media would berate and belittle any 'creative tension' mentioned by dems

[EFerrari]

6. Two reasons come to mind.

One, the Professional Left wanted to give the president a honeymoon and seemed to be waiting to see if they would be called into action by his White House. I think it's safe to say, that didn't happen. And two, just about the time that was sinking in, the crash hit. Very few people were not impacted by this one. So it is possible that people were having to mind their own gardens for a while. It's more difficult to be politically active if your job is in danger or gone and/or if you are fighting to keep a roof over your head.

Maybe the Professional Left is understanding that #1 & #2 are going to be part of the landscape for years and not only a fleeting occurrence and are estimating how to fold an unreceptive White House and continuing financial uncertainty in every day life. Most of the email lists I'm on for various issues were skeletal for a period of time. They seem to be ramping up a bit now. Fwiw.

[H2O Man]

10. Interesting.

First, although I think the "professional left" could play a role, I'm not sure that it should be as the leadership of the democratic left. But I do think that there was a high level of "political fatigue" after the '08 election. This helped create a vacuum.

Thanks!

[EFerrari]

15. For the purposes of our discussion, I'm describing anyone with The Google

the Professional Left because as democrats, we tend not to have Dick Armeys.

/typo

[H2O Man]

22. Okay.

Makes sense.

[sadbear]

7. Crazy and dramatic make for good TV ratings and exposure

We don't do crazy and dramatic very well.

[EFerrari]

8. My Cops producer friend told Mike Moore that he'd be happy to film white collar crime

if we could get the criminals to take off their shirt and run in traffic. :)

Maybe we need to rethink our dress code for protests. :)

[blondeatlast]

25. That's what the m$m expects from lw protests,, I bet. Now they get

from the rw.

I'd hate for the lw to have to resort to the antics of the TeaBaggers, but that's what gets the media interested.

[blondeatlast]

11. We're too passionate. Plus, some of us in Red states face a different reality

than others.

I think the answer can be found here on DU. I think most DUers are well left of center left but seem to come apart when it comes to issues. But when the time comes to do the deed, we fall apart even more.

As an Arizonan, I've been very surprised to see the support for Disaster 1070, even among those I consider further left than me, on this board.

I'd love to see it happen and would channel my energies towards a well-coordinated left wing shift of the party. I hope it happens--but it's going to take the Left facing some harsh realities.

Good question; I plan to follow this thread.

[JonLP24]

14. Support for 1070

was a real head scratcher for me. The legislation was authored by Russell Pearce who endorsed neo-nazi JT Ready in the past and opposes ethnic studies at universities. It was also co-authored by a FAIR lawyer as we know is a racially motivated organization. It was very clear to me it was racially motivated legislation that I couldn't fathom the support for.

[LiberalAndProud]

20. There was support here for that?

I guess I missed it.

When I first read your post I was gobsmacked. Then I thought about it for a second and realized I'd be surprised if there wasn't.

:sigh:

[blondeatlast]

26. Including from right here in the state. True story: I held a debate watching party

for Biden-Palin. about 20 people, many of whom I knew from the district, a few from quite a distance.

All went well until it was time to leave. The news came on and there was a bit about Sheriff Arpaio violating somebody's civil rights or whoring for the camera or--whatevere he routinely does that the local m$m laps up.

One guest directed our attention to the screen. I expected a "look what the dolt is doing now." Instead, she proceeded to profess her admiration for the Sheriff.

You could have heard a molecule drop.

[LiberalAndProud]

30. Christ. I heard it too.

Our tent is too crowded.

[blondeatlast]

34. I might add that they aren't newish members, either,

however, those same posters have expressed other opinions that kind of left me :wtf:ing.

[bigtree]

12. What they have is a confusion of interests

None of which have our own interests at the heart of their efforts.

The effect of their little power plays is a splintering within their party without any clear notion of what each side actually stands for (other than to hear themselves talk, and they hope, to get elected).

Do Democrats really have enough of a divide of interests that would facilitate a progressive party? Maybe. But, I think the danger is always in how that coalition manages to advance their initiatives, especially at the outset of their establishment - not to mention the splintering effect which would almost certainly threaten their success in a general election.

I think the real question behind 'D's query is whether there would ultimately be any significant support among Democratic voters around the country for such an effort?

[EFerrari]

19. Maybe the most effective action we could take is to empower

the Progressive Caucus. Flow funds and attention (i.e., power) to them.

[H2O Man]

28. Good answer.

Much appreciated.

What I think is that the democratic left needs to ecome more active in areas that are too often overlooked. Let me give a small example, having to do with school boards. I've mentioned recently that I've been asked (by a group of teachers and parents) to run for a seat on the board. I've decided to. However -- and I do not think that this will surprise you -- I approach this in the same way I did a boxing match: I am intent on winning.

So, I've started mentioning this at high school sporting events. A number of people who rarely (if ever) bother to vote, have said they will defenitely vote for me. Also, a group of people too young to have voted before, have said they'll vote for me. And a large group of students, who will still be too young to vote, have volunteered (without my asking) to help campaign for me.

Now, I'd like to think that it is in part because some people like me. Icould give a Sally Fields speech worthy of a flying nun. But I'm realistic: the response is not because of me, but because of what I represent to those people. It's the opportunity for them to believe that someone is listening to them, will be there for them, and they want to help make that happen.

Years ago, in another community, I changed the expected outcome of the majority of the school board races, by going door-to-door in the largest "low-income" neighborhood in rural upstate New York. On election day, knowing that many would hesitate to go to the polls alone, I organized neighborhood groups of voters. (There was a problem, because poor folk aren't made to feel welcome, but with the help of the ACLU, we won.)

We need to learn the lessons from the civil rights organizers, who knew that they had to increase their ranks by including those normally left out, ignored, and disenfranchised. It takes work, but anything worthwhile is difficult.

[blondeatlast]

31. The Radical Religious Right used school boards (and still do) as a push into the political

arena and we're seeing the sadly effective results today.

I think there's a huge place in local politics for the likes of Greens and the more liberal wing of the party. School boards, city councils--once Joe and Sandy Average see what can be accomplished affecting their everyday lives the left can have a stronger voice up the political ladder.

And we'll all be much better off when they do get elected, even in the lower tiers.

[MadHound]

16. Because when the left brings about "creative tension"

Ala the sixties, it tends to get shot down by Dems and 'Pugs, both literally and figuratively. That is a specter that haunts the left to this day. That's one of the many reasons that any organization by the left is sporadic at best.

[Recursion]

23. Free Mumia marchers

I have no opinion on the guilt or innocence of Mumia Abu Jamal, and I'm not mentioning this to start a fight on that. I'm mentioning this because when we lined Pennsylvania Avenue in early 2001 to protest the coronation of George W. Bush, a large group of people showed up with "Free Mumia" signs.

Not the time. Not the place. Nothing to do with what the protest was about. But everybody over here on the left has their own pet issue that they think is somehow much more systemic than the rest of the left does (NORML types think all our problems will be solved with marijuana legalization. Free Mumia types think freeing him will expose all the lies of the past 40 years and usher in a new era of freedom. Code Pink thinks getting Americans shocked about the costs, human and material, of the wars will solve our problems). They're all laudable goals, but there comes a point, frankly, when we all need to shut the hell up and focus on one immediate problem at a time. But we on the left have no message discipline.

Free Mumia... with every fill-up of 10 gallons or more...

[EFerrari]

24. Our party is not immune to the class war

because privilege always uses the means at its disposal to protect itself.

[Sapphocrat]

21. Basic personalitiy types, for starters.

Liberals are generally nice people who actually care about others, strangers included. Simply put, most of us are not naturally hateful assholes -- and you have to be a major asshole to hate Mexicans, gays, and the poor for no other reason than that they're not like you.

They're into zero-sum warring, while we keep believing that making nice and playing so everybody wins is the end goal.

Plus, they hit a chord in people who would never admit to being violence-loving bigots. It was often said a great deal of the reason "All in the Family" was so popular was that it spoke to the Archie Bunker in many of its viewers. Teabagging gives followers an excuse to indulge their inner bigots, while pretending racism, homophobia, etc., have nothing to do with it, and all they really want is "smaller government" and gun rights.

Next time some 'bagger says they just want to "take our country back," ask him directly: "From whom?" They can never answer directly or honestly, because it's much too taboo to admit they're just pissed off over the black guy in the Oval Office.

Finally, the Teabaggers' behavior is outrageous -- which is why they get the media exposure they do.

And the more media coverage they get, the more emboldened they become, the more outrageous their behavior, the more coverage they get... ad nauseum.

We'd have to start acting like the old Weather Underground before we'd get the same attention -- and we don't do that, because we believe in peace, not war.

That's why.

[EFerrari]

29. But isn't that exactly why Unitarian Jihad was such a big hit?

lol

The Weather Underground was an insurgency just as the Black Bloc is one now. Most people won't do that. But there has to be a middle ground between busting windows or throwing bombs and being led to the slaughter. And it has to have an element of threat to business as usual in it -- as labor strikes used to when we still had a substantial labor block in this country.

That element will always be in tension (at best) during a Democratic administration and there seems to be very little appetite for that at the moment if DU is any measure.

[H2O Man]

44. Respectfully disagree.

The civil rights movement got plenty of media attention. They were not at all like the Tea Party. (The Weather Underground was, of course, far from being part of the Democratic Party.)

[BlancheSplanchnik]

27. if I may offer my very inexpert opinion...

personally, I think the reason we don't have a movement like the Tea Party, in terms of numbers of people making headlines is that we don't have multiple corporate interests funneling $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ into their cause.

If Corporations' survival depended on humanitarian interests, they would have been subsidizing media, think tanks, churches and the Democratic/Progressive caucus for generations.

edit--well I typed before reading the whole thread...looks like I'm not the only one who thinks this!

[Tatiana]

32. I think our party operates more out of a sense of caution than the other side does.

The other side is not afraid of losing seats if they go down fighting for what they believe in.

We sometimes prop up dead (establishment) weight out of fear that certain Democratic primary candidates could "never win a general election." Perfect example: Blanche Lincoln and Bill Halter. Would Halter have won the general election? Maybe not. Would Halter have served the purpose of advancing more Democratic values in a traditionally conservative state? Certainly so! We say Democrats cannot run in so-called "Red States" because voters are

The teapers had a long-term strategy. The Tea Party movement is not new. It's the same conservative Republicans of old. However, they keep running the type of candidates we deride as "fringe" over and over until that ideology becomes not so fringe in many communities -- so much so that members of a border state like Arizona have a majority that could support a racist immigration law.

I believe if we started funding and supporting (on a national level) quality candidates to oppose the Blue Dogs, we could sink more than a few DINOs and even elect much better representation in other cases. I believe the Blue Dogs only serve to weaken our party and pull it rightward. Better to have fewer Dems, but a stronger, more unified caucus that passes better legislation than to just be concerned with numbers.

[defendandprotect]

35. GOP created the T-party....and it's run out of a PR firm.... not that other

angry, confused, violent people haven't now joined them!!

Brown/Black shirts -- beware!!

MEANWHILE ... notice that 76%+ of Americans wanted single payer/government supported

health care. Did we see EVEN ONE DEMOCRAT calling out Democrats to demonstrate for

MEDICARE FOR ALL?

hmm....



And, btw, for those who might not still know -- GOP gave start up funding in 1980 for

"Christian Coalition -- Richard Scaife financed Dobson's organization -- and other wealthy

Repugs financed Bauer's organization.

Everything the right wing has been bought -- every think tank --

GOP/NRA was used not only to knock out liberals/progressives in the Democrtic Party.

The only way the right wing can rise is thru political violence -- stolen elections --

and creating a violent society and violent protesters!

[HughMoran]

36. Good post, good question

We've sure done a good job at creating tension, too bad it's disorganized and unconstructive at a most basic level (bitter anger is rarely constructive.)

[Iterate]

38. Tell him about the convention of 1964.

I guess any number of points in the recent past would do as turning points, but that one comes to mind tonight. It's an early one that many here would remember and the earliest that any of us could have influenced in the least. That was an intelligent group of people who worked within the Party who should have been seated but when the MFDP was blocked a whole set of bad consequences followed.

So it has been tried, but it failed. You could even argue that the blue dogs were one of the unintended results.

Just thinking out loud here, as I've been wondering about it myself -if a coalition could be formed of voters within the party, pledging support, votes, and effort to any candidate who would actively commit to a narrowed list of progressive values and goals and who would deny it to those who don't. I know what many of the problems would be, problems abound, but it would be something.

[blondeatlast]

49. He discusses it upthread in a reply to me. I looked up the

MFDP and I liked what I found.

[felix_numinous]

39. We definitely need a strategy on the left

to balance the power of the RW influence on government. Since the RW no longer resembles what used to be the Republican Party, Democrats are now going through an identity crisis. Our big tent now has rooms in it housing Republican refugees, and other rooms full of corporate sellouts. Plus, there is nothing now that remotely resembles intelligent discourse between the parties, so we can no longer gauge ourselves against their viewpoint like we used to. Now we are left talking amongst ourselves in our big tent.

Issues such as corporate influence on government, and separation of church and state, seem to me to be the most pressing key issues that may be a good place to start. Energy independence and FDRs 2nd Bill of Rights would also bring the most benefits to the left.

Oh- edited to add- I believe Progressives would make the best counterweight for RW teabaggers.

Thank you H2O Man, this is a great discussion.

[JonLP24]

40. Couple years ago

I read this book--Dream: Re-imagining Progressive Politics in an Age of Fantasy. It explains how Republicans use spectacles and used an example of Bush landing on that ship with the mission accomplished in a fighter jet when the SOP was to use a chopper since they were close to the California coast. It went into details and explained how Las Vegas lights is a spectacle that attracts large groups of people. It also said that the Democrats and progressives in general are not effective at this and the Republican party is. The book recommends progressives to do this but be truthful, unlike Republicans as you know are very dishonest. I vaguely remember the book and this is what I mostly remember. My answer is in the book. :)

[RandomThoughts]

48. Republicans used the language but not the heart.

Now the Republican party is being transformed to include what they claimed they believed in but only did for their own advantage.

If those of faith, from the tea party do have influence in that party, it is because the party tried to use that with Machiavellian thoughts.

Or at least that makes sense.


Note that I have not, nor ever have believed in Machiavellianism.

And actually think it is best to just be nice to people and let that light show your beliefs, not telling people what they have to believe. Many tell other people what to do, without looking at their own flaws.

Then again, I make lots of mistakes also, so nobody is perfect.

[Me.]

50. I Think People Are Worn Out From This Decade

8 years of the horror of Bush, working like crazy to get a dem senate, house and president only to be faced with job losses, money down the bank drain, no healthcare now that the job is gone, no money for college or, even worse, to pay the mortgage and feed the kids.

WE could use a transfusion of young, vital blood.

[southernyankeebelle]

51. I tell you why. The left hasn't been shit on enough. When republicans start taking away

your programs and when the teabaggers realize they want to take away their programs then and only then will everyone finally start demostrations. Look at what is happening in Greece. It will happen here. Wait and see. Young people need to get out there and protest.

[grantcart]

52. My answer would be a question

When is "D"'s generation (and my daughter's) going to make it happen?


Go to the demonstrations for liberal causes and you find 80% white hair old guys like us.


If "D" is waiting for somebody else to step up to the plate he may be waiting a long time. If that age group doesn't start stepping up at the precinct and lower levels of party organization then in the future there will simply be a lot more young people asking questions about a Party that has fewer and fewer regular people who are manning the campaigns.

"D" sounds just like the kind of guy we need running for city council or other entry level office.