Jack Storms Photos: John T. Williams March to Seattle City Hall

[Tsiyu]

http://www.bsnorrell.blogspot.com/


Where every life is not sacred, no life is sacred...


T

[merqz]

1. I'd like the facts of the investigation

(which is still in process) to be released before I make a judgment.

All we know is he had a knife in his hand, the blade was extended, a witness says the cop told the guy to drop the knife 3 or 4 times.

Everything else is speculation at this point.

[Tsiyu]

2. thanks for the kick n/t

[Hannah Bell]

3. that bullshit has already been disavowed by the cops themselves.

[merqz]

7. actually, no it hasn't

provide a cite please. they did retract iirc that the guy lunged at the cop

nobody (including the witnesses) is denying that the guy was carrying the knife with the blade extended (in fact, several friends of his have corroborated that he frequently walks around thusly), or that the cop told him several times to drop it.

everything else is sketchy at this point. Except that we know the cop didn't have a taser (he hadn't been issued one). We know that the guy was supposedly hard of hearing (deaf in one ear) AND was purportedly wearing ear buds, iow earplugs. Here's a general rule, though. If you are hard of hearing or not... if you are carrying a knife and a cop has his gun drawn and is screaming at you (which you can see - deaf and wearing earplugs or not)... drop the knife. It's sound advice.

Did he intend the cop harm? I have no idea, nor do you. Did he place the cop in a position where the shooting was justified? I have no idea, nor do you. Who closed the distance and in what manner (it is alleged that the cop was 9ft from the guy when he shot)?

Thus, as I said, I reserve judgment. Otoh, it does seem reasonable for a cop to make a Terry Stop when somebody is walking down the street (or crossing one) while carrying a knife, with the blade extended. Seattle city Council also (and this is a liberal city) passed an ordinance regulating such carry of such knives in city limits, as well as the State Law against "displaying a weapon in a manner likely to intimidate"

People in Seattle often carry knives IN SHEATHS and no cops bother them at all. I walk in downtown seattle with one sometimes, too. That wasn't the case here.

[Hannah Bell]

8. He was crossing a street whittling on a piece of wood. Based on witness reports, I *do* have an

idea. No witness has supported the cop's account.


The knife he was carrying had a three-inch blade, which is legal according to the Seattle Municipal Code. Preliminary reports that Williams lunged at Birk have since been retracted. "We dropped the lunging and advancing pending further need for investigation," says police spokesman Sean Whitcomb.

http://www.thestranger.com/seattle/the-buck-stops-with-nobody/Content?oid=4832659

[merqz]

10. again, you are making assumptions

I am not

"Seattle municipal code (SMC 12A.14.080) says that it is illegal to “Carry concealed or unconcealed on his or her person any dangerous knife, or carry concealed on his or her person any deadly weapon other than a firearm.”

Where the behavior of the officer may be justified is in Seattle municipal code (SMC 12A.14.075). That section states, “A person is guilty of unlawful use of weapons to intimidate another if he or she carries, exhibits, displays or draws a dangerous knife, any knife with a blade that is open for use or a deadly weapon other than a firearm in a manner, under circumstances, and at a time and place that either manifests an intent to intimidate another person or warrants alarm for the safety of other persons.”

There is a RCW that mirrors the second SMC here. That is the issue. Read the whole article...
http://www.phillipswebster.com/blog/2010/08/wrongful-death-lawyers-man-whittling-with-knife-shot-by-seattle-police-officer/
(hint; THIS IS HARDLY A PRO-POLICE SOURCE)

We do not have enough facts to know if the police officer was justified in the shoot or not. Furthermore, assuming arguendo his knife blade was 3 1/2" or less (SMC 12a.14.010), there are other statutes that apply (I cited 2) as well as the fact that no officer seeing the blade from a distance is going to be able to measure it and see if it applies to the 3 1/2" thang.

We do not have enough facts to know if the shoot was justified or not... It may be a "lawful but awful" type of shoot where it's justified but in retrospect, it is apparent the man had no nefarious intent. It may be unlawful. I have no idea. Nor do you.

Assume the fact pattern in a manner that gives the person shot, the benefit of the doubt - iow, he was merely whittling (not waving it or anything)... it is still entirely within the "reasonableness" standard for the officer to contact the person pursuant to 12a.14.075 and investigate. In the course of investigating, it is entirely reasonable to demand that the person drop the knife, which witnesses say the officer clearly did and multiple times, etc.

I don't know who advanced on whom, to what extent, etc. etc.

It may be justified. It may not be. Jumping to conclusions at this point is silly imo.

[Hannah Bell]

11. what a load of crap. 3 witnesses, at least, have disputed the cops account.

there was no "intimidation" of anyone. he was whittling a piece of wood.

and the fact that he didn't drop the knife doesn't give the officer carte blanche to kill him.

i have some inside information of this story, & the police know the cop was out of line.

that's why they backed down on the initial story & went crawling to the community.

everyone knows what happened: the cop overreacted & killed someone in cold blood.

& btw, the knife blade was slightly less than 3", there's a file picture of it on the web next to a ruler.

[merqz]

12. Now you are twisting and spinning

How unsurprising. First of all, I'm not denying the length of the knife blade, I am saying that the officer, seeing the knife blade from a distance cannot clearly see whether it is or isn't under 3 1/2". That gives him (among other possible reasons already shown) a reason to investigate. The relevant case is Terry v. Ohio.

Nobody said merely not dropping the knife gave the cop carte blanche to shoot. What I did say is that depending on the facts and circumstances (did the suspect advance on the officer, vice-versa, what was the distance when he shot, etc.) the shooting may or may not be justified.

Everybody does not know what happened. Those of us who don't assume will wait for facts to come out. If the suspect was 9 feet away from the officer when he shot, there is no doubt that distance is close enough to shoot. If the cop didn't have his gun out, the reactive distance is at least 21 ft, but since he had his gun out, it is less. Regardless, I don't know who closed the distance on whom, what the bystander situation was, etc.

I will wait for the facts to come out. You can jump to conclusions based on sketchy info.

[Hannah Bell]

13. no, you are, & i'm done with your crap.

you are waiting for the cops, that's all.

in this case, it's not going to go that way, sorry. the guy doesn't have the support. he fucked up badly.

[merqz]

15. I am waiting for evidence. This is not a popularity contest

Thus, how much support he has, is irrelevant.

What matters is, according to case law, is the facts and circumstances reasonably perceived by him at the time of the shooting (from a legal standpoint) as well as what was dept. policy (from an administrative standpoint).

Fortunately, I appreciate rule of law. You appreciate prejudice and conjecture. Rule of law means how much "support" he has is irrelevant.

[H2O Man]

14. a diaper load there.

You've made it quite clear that you have "jumped to a conclusion."

[merqz]

16. No, you have made it quite clear you are incapable of reading

I have come to no conclusion as to whether the shooting was justified.

Many others have. There are simply not enough facts known to come to a conclusion without being prejudiced.

[Tsiyu]

18. You have come to no conclusion?

Well, I can conclude that a human being is dead.

And that it did not have to be that way. And that cops might want to start walking around the cities they serve, you know, acting like decent human beings instead of like paranoid wannabe soldiers.

But that's my opinion, and those are my conclusions.

Did you come to the conclusion that this is an issue that must come to someone's attention? An issue which folks might like to discuss?

Or did you just come to the conclusion that you would disrupt this thread?

At any rate, I thank you for the many kicks you have given it.

[merqz]

19. No, I haven't

Yes, one human being is dead.

That says nothing about whether it was justified or not

People can discuss it all they want. They can even come to conclusions with a dearth of evidence. Based on the facts I know, there is simply no way to come to an informed conclusion. Contrast this with any # of other incidents where it's clear the shooting (or force) was justified, and any # where it's clear it wasn't (like the jail cell beating of the girl who kicked her shoe at the cop).

And it most certainly doesn't disrupt the thread to throw actual legitimate content e.g. Seattle Municipal Code, witness accounts, etc. vs. speculation and prejudice.

For example, the first question in any use of force is - was the initial "transaction" justified? Iow, whether a terry stop, infraction stop, social contact, etc. was there a seizure and was the seizure reasonable under the 4th amendment AND under the increased privacy protections offered by the WA state constitution.

If the initial transaction was justified (and imo the bulk of evidence supports THAT conclusion), was the subsequent shooting justified? I have no idea as to that question. I do know that 9' is well within the justified distance, but I don't know how the 9' came about, etc. Fwiw, I have no idea if it had to be that way (the guy gets shot) or not. There is simply not enough evidence to come to that conclusion.

[rustydog]

21. He was deaf and may not have heard the commands that

may or may not have been given.

[Hannah Bell]

4. Hundreds protest police shooting of Native American carver

Several hundred people went to the Seattle Police West Precinct Thursday afternoon to protest the officer-involved shooting death of John T. Williams, a Native American carver who family said was deaf in one ear and had struggled with homelessness.

Williams, 50, was shot four times at Boren Avenue and Howell Street on Aug. 30, after police say he didn't follow three verbal commands to drop his carving knife, which had a three-inch blade. Williams had come from a family of carvers and was part of the Nitinaht Tribe.

The shooting - the third officer-involved fatal incident this year - has prompted an internal investigation, a major police department overhaul, and promises by Police Chief John Diaz of a "peer review" by two outside police agencies. An inquest will also follow Seattle's internal investigation.

Deputy Chief Nick Metz said investigators are looking into why Officer Ian Birk, who shot Williams, didn't call for backup before shooting him. Police said the incident happened in about a minute.

http://www.seattlepi.com/local/426860_williams17.html?source=mypi

Video at the link above

[Tsiyu]

5. Thank you HB

If you click on the link at the bottom of Storm's photos it brings up another page of stories concerning the shooting as well.

Thanks for your addition to this thread...

[suffragette]

6. More on the march

Mayor meets with protesters over carver's fatal shooting

By Lynda V. Mapes
Seattle Times staff reporter

"There is injustice, historic injustice, that has to change," Seattle Mayor Mike McGinn told a crowd that had marched to City Hall on Thursday to protest the fatal shooting of a First Nations carver by a Seattle police officer.

"You will judge us ultimately not by my words today, but by our actions," said the mayor, holding a carved talking stick passed to him by protest leaders. "We will be held accountable."

The crowd had marched to City Hall through rainy streets from the intersection of Boren Avenue and Howell Street, where carver John T. Williams, 50, was shot Aug. 30. The demonstrators, many of them Native American or First Nations tribal members, carried branches of cedar, a symbol of cleansing and healing.


http://www.realchangenews.org/index.php/site/archives-blog/4709/
Native artist to mayor: “Can you find us a place to carve?”
posted by Cydney Gillis on Thursday, September 16 at 8:46pm


It could take months or years to resolve the issues around the death of John T. Williams, the native carver shot to death Aug. 30 by a police officer in downtown Seattle. About 200 people marched in the rain today to a rally in the lobby of City Hall, where Native Americans drummed on the steps of the City Council’s grand staircase. In between songs, there were calls for peace and for teaching the young to carve. The names of all those killed by Seattle police were also called out with the names of officers who have given their lives in service.

Toward the end, Mayor Mike McGinn appeared and was welcomed into the group with nary a jeer. Rally participant Dallas Singhurst wasted no time making a direct appeal to McGinn for something he’d been thinking about, something that potentially could have saved Williams’ life—a place for Native Americans to carve and sell their totems. Williams came from a long line of Ditidaht tribal carvers and had a piece of wood and a pocket knife in his hands when the officer confronted and shot him.

Singhurst told the mayor that he, too, is a native carver and, though he’s poor, he has a large collection of Native American art that he’s amassed over the years, including six totems made by the Williams family. He’d be willing to donate it all, he said, if the city or a property owner could provide a downtown space where native artists could work and display their art.

[Hannah Bell]

9. 200 people = a pretty decent turnout for seattle.

[Tsiyu]

17. And you won't hear about it

much.

But we can bring it to light here.

:kick:

[suffragette]

23. Especially in the middle of a workday

And McGinn has attended at least part of each one.
I have to give him some credit there; I doubt Nickels would have gone.

[Tsiyu]

26. a safe place for carvers makes sense

And i do applaud the mayor for showing his face,
and to the protesters for reading the names of those killed by cops and also the names of those cops killed in the line of duty.

Maybe this will lead to some positive, peaceful changes for Seattle.

[suffragette]

27. My hope as well

:hi:

[nmbluesky]

20. sadly...

Nobody Major News, NBC, ABC, CBS, MSNBC, CNN and I hate that word.....Fox news..
cover indian right..

they always cover, black, White, brown, and Yellow..Nothing about Red???? that's fair???

[Tsiyu]

22. My opinion: people like John are not really "people" to the media

They aren't supposed to be here, after all these years.

So what's one more lost?

[suffragette]

24. We still have strong alternate media here

which helps.

Here's a good article on Real Change in the Stranger.
http://www.thestranger.com/seattle/tim-harris-and-real-change/Content?oid=4887748

[Tsiyu]

25. Thanks for the link suffragette

I'll check it out.

:hi: