video: 5 houses burn on moenart street while waiting for detroit's fire department to show up

[Hannah Bell]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hiTKohMGCxA

This footage of the September 7 fires in the Moenart Street area of Detroit was taken by Ian and Andrew Perrotta, residents of the east side neighborhood. The two brothers, one of whom was once a firefighter, tried to extinguish the blaze that started in a neighbor’s garage. When they had done all they could, they decided to document the fire.

Anxiety and frustration gripped neighbors as high winds fanned the flames, causing the fire to spread quickly. The fire department and 911 were called numerous times by residents, but residents watched in desperation for more than an hour before the first truck came.

Detroit was hit simultaneously by several raging firestorms that afternoon, which taxed the fire department’s ability to respond, due to massive budget cuts. Winds reaching 50 miles per hour that day caused poorly maintained power lines to go down, at least 750 in total.

Moenart Street residents said that the fire was a result of a power line that went down the day before. (See “East side Detroit residents say fire not a ‘natural disaster’”.)

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2010/sep2010/vide-s21.shtml

[davepc]

1. When are they going to downsize the city?

What is it, half a million people spread over 150 miles, give or take?

[Hannah Bell]

2. this neighborhood is about 6 miles from midtown detroit, about 4 miles from warren, about 4 miles

from hamtramck, and about 8 miles from grosse pointe woods, per google maps.

that's 4 fire departments that could have responded.

http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&q=moenart%20street%20detroit&wrapid=tlif12850472301642&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wl

Detroit is 143 square miles with 910K people, the 11th-biggest city in the US.

Seattle is 142 square miles with 617K people, the 23rd-biggest city in the US.

Portland, Oregon is 145 square miles and 582K people.

Atlanta, Georgia is 132 sq. miles & 540K people.

Square root of 150 = 12.2. A square 12 miles by 12 miles = 144 square miles. Do you really think it's such an unmanageable area?

Fuck "downsizing". It means stealing people's homes & making them homeless & propertyless, i.e. ethnic cleansing.

[KamaAina]

10. San Jose: pop. 970,000, 178 sq. mi.

Detroit's density, though considerably reduced from its peak in the '50s and '60s, is by no means unusual for U.S. cities.

[Romulox]

12. So...if Detroit can become MUCH whiter, MUCH, MUCH wealthier, and move itself to the Pacific ocean

it can be *just like* San Jose and Seattle! Anything less is some bizarre conspiracy (as per the OP.) :shrug:

[Hannah Bell]

18. not sure why you think "whiteness" has anything to do with it: atlanta = 61% black.

& it's nowhere near the pacific.

as for wealth, detroit is still home to some of the world's biggest corporations last time i looked.

144 square miles = a 12 mile by 12 mile square, i.e. you can get from any point to another point by going 12 miles or less. detroit is not a 145-mile strip; it's fairly square.

[seattleblue]

22. Other than GM who is headquartered in Detroit?

GM has, I believe, one plant in Detroit, the others are scattered around the world.

[Romulox]

26. Um, which companies are hqed in Detroit? (Google time!)

:hi:

[Hannah Bell]

34. uh, dte, for starters, S&P 500 corp.

i didn't have to google that, because the fire dept. was busy "sitting on" dte's downed lines while detroit residents' houses burned.

oh, btw, here's that article you missed:

Foreign Real Estate Investors Are Snapping Up Detroit Homes

Despite its tough economic climate, Detroit's real estate market is attracting long-term global investors who are purchasing and renovating properties for the rental market. With quality brick construction, a large blue collar population fueling the rental market and low median home prices, Detroit represents a unique opportunity for foreigners seeking a long-term investment that could see significant returns as the US economy recovers. See the following article from International Property Journal for more on this.

Searching the globe for investment opportunities, London-based Experience International settled on, of all places, Detroit, the U.S. poster child for tough economic times. More than 25 percent of the work force is unemployed in the Motor City, the murder rate is among the highest in the country and the median price of a home sank to somewhere around $18,000 in the last year.

“When Detroit was first presented to me, my first reaction was, ‘no thanks,’” said Stuart Johnson, project sourcing manager for the investment firm, which is also working on projects in the French Alps, Brazil and Panama. “We’d heard all the bad stories about Detroit.”

But Detroit, Johnson soon decided, offers a unique investment opportunity. Experience International is participating in a program to buy and renovate homes for the rental market, usually paying about $45,000 to buy and spruce up a property, which typically generates $800 to $900 a month in rent.

http://www.nuwireinvestor.com/articles/foreign-real-estate-investors-snapping-up-detroit-homes-54463.aspx

[Romulox]

53. LOL. Detroit Edison is the gas company. How scandalous that it be located in Detroit!

You are venturing into tinfoil territory. :hi:

[Hannah Bell]

61. "detroit edison" is a subsidiary of dte energy, a national corporation. dte is based in detroit,

has about 11,000 employees, is the biggest private employer in michigan, & is #285 on the fortune 500 list of the biggest US corporations. $550 million in profits in 2008, which was a bad year for them.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DTE_Energy

http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/fortune500/2009/snapshots/2047.html

[Romulox]

64. It's the local power company. Your theories are bizarre. nt

[Hannah Bell]

68. "Local power company" implies it operates only in Detroit. It doesn't. It's a national corp & a

Fortune 500 corp.

You seem to be unable to process any information which doesn't fit your talking points.


DTE Energy Holdings Map

http://www.dteenergy.com/dteEnergyCompany/aboutDTEEnergy/holdingsMap.html


DTE Energy businesses currently operate in 26 states.


Alabama
DTE Biomass Energy
DTE Energy Services


Arizona
DTE Biomass Energy


California
DTE Biomass Energy
DTE Energy Services


Colorado
DTE Rail Services


Florida
DTE Biomass Energy


Georgia
DTE Coal Services
DTE Energy Trading


Illinois
DTE Biomass Energy
DTE Coal Services
DTE Energy Services
DTE Pipeline


Indiana
DTE Energy Services
DTE Pipeline
DTE Rail Services


Kansas
DTE Biomass Energy

Kentucky
DTE Coal Services


Maryland
DTE Energy Services


Michigan
Citizens Gas Fuel
Detroit Edison
MichCon
DTE Biomass Energy
DTE Coal Services
DTE Energy Services
DTE Energy Trading
DTE Pipeline
DTE Gas Storage


Mississippi
DTE Energy Services


Nebraska
DTE Rail Services


Nevada
DTE Energy Services


New York
DTE Biomass Energy
DTE Energy Services
DTE Pipeline


North Carolina
DTE Biomass Energy

Ohio
DTE Biomass Energy
DTE Energy Services


Oklahoma
DTE Biomass Energy


Pennsylvania
DTE Energy Services


South Carolina
DTE Energy Services


Texas
DTE Biomass Energy
DTE Energy Trading
DTE Gas Resources


Utah
DTE Biomass Energy


Virginia
DTE Biomass Energy


West Virginia
DTE Coal Services


Wisconsin
Midwest Energy Resources

[Romulox]

77. Do you remember what point the above is supposed to support?

:silly:

[Hannah Bell]

80. Do you? DTE HQ = detroit.

http://www.dteenergy.com/dteEnergyCompany/contactUs.html

http://www.dteenergy.com/dteEnergyCompany/aboutDTEEnergy/

[Romulox]

83. Right. But the fact that the local power company is in Detroit doesn't prove any other point.

:hi:

[Hannah Bell]

87. except that it's a giant corporation that has plenty of money to pay taxes & is based in detroit.

and also does business in 28 other states.

[sufrommich]

88. You realize one corporation paying taxes in Detroit

cannot prop up the city, right?

[Hannah Bell]

90. you realize that that's just one of the corporations based in & around detroit, right?

[sufrommich]

91. Those "around" Detroit don't pay Detroit taxes.

Tell us, what are the other big corporations paying taxes in Detroit?

[Hannah Bell]

92. well, we started with gm, which you said was the only one. then dte, which you said

was "just the local power company" despite the fact that it's a member of the fortune 500 & is the "local power company" in lots of places.

now we'll move on to american axle: $1.5 billion in revenue, $250 million in profit in 2009.

http://www.aam.com/index.php?s=128&item=116

[sufrommich]

94. American Axle survives today because they closed a plant

in Detroit, laying off over a thousand workers. They also get a special tax break from Detroit for moving their headquarters there. The truth is, most big corporations have left Detroit, that fact that you can search and find 1 (!) that didn't only proves that you have to resort to drastic googling to find anybody left who hasn't abandoned the city. The truth is, there's very few grocery stores left in the city, zero shopping malls,and block after block of abandoned houses. It's a city that does not have the infrastructure to survive as a city and the few corporations that still exist there will not be enough to undo that.

[Hannah Bell]

95. $250 million in profits in a recession year. you're tiresome.

[sufrommich]

96. You're talking about the biggest city in Michigan, American

Axle ranks 23rd on the list of profitable Michigan corporations. 23rd. You're acting like this feeble list of 3 corporations you found in Detroit is some kind of proof that Detroit is a corporate powerhouse, which of course it no longer is. It is, however, still the biggest city in Michigan, unfortunately, it's tax base is minuscule. Go on believing your personal fairy tale of Detroit, but it's still a fairy tale.

[Hannah Bell]

99. wait, i thought it was a vast wasteland of burnt-out tenements, now it's "the biggest city in

michigan"?

lol. so consistent.

[sufrommich]

100. Are you kidding ? Who has denied that Detroit is the most

populous city in Michigan? The whole basis for my argument is that it's got a population unsupported by a proportional tax base. Which part of that didn't you understand?

[Romulox]

101. Right. But how do we get to "racial cleansing" from that fact?

I'm not willing to make these giant logical leaps that you ask of me. :hi:

[Hannah Bell]

104. i think you're the one leaping.

[KamaAina]

21. Much whiter?

San Jose is about 30 percent white Anglo, with substantial Mexican- and Vietnamese-American populations.

And I sure wouldn't want Detroit to become like here (although it might have a slightly better hockey team :P )! Detroit, by many accounts, has the kind of urban character worth preserving, much like that other non-white, non-wealthy city frequently mentioned as a candidate for downsizing: New Orleans.

[Romulox]

25. I have no idea what a "white Anglo" is, but yes, that is still MUCH whiter than Detroit.

:hi:

[KamaAina]

28. Anglo = not Hispanic.

Remember the line on thew census form "Hispanics may be of any race"? Quite a few of them choose "white", but describing SJ as 48% white is misleading.

[Romulox]

30. That's not right. "Anglo" is a specific ethnicity from the British Isles.

:hi:

[KamaAina]

31. That would be "Anglo-Saxon".

The term "Anglo" is in common use in California and, indeed, throughout the Southwest.

But don't worry. I'm not one of those people who wants to suck up your Great Lakes water. :-)

[Celeborn Skywalker]

47. Anglo in Southwest

is a non Hispanic, English speaking, Caucasian. The word started to be used in the mid 1800's by Hispanics when English speaking American settlers came into the Southwest. At least, that's how it's used in New Mexico and Arizona.

[Romulox]

51. Like calling hispanics "Spaniard", non? nt

[Celeborn Skywalker]

60. Well in NM, at least,

Many Hispanics self identify as "Spanish" which, like "anglo" is only useful as a linguistic label as many Hispanics genetically are more American Indian than Spanish.

[Romulox]

65. The problem with that is when an Anglophone person of color calls a non-English person "Anglo"

it's all kinds of nonsensical (perhaps even vaguely racist, as "Spaniard" is frequently considered).

Which of these people is an "Anglo"?

A Mexican American who only speaks English?
A Polish American who speaks some Polish, but is fluent in English?
A Lithuanian resident alien who attends ESL at night?
A Persian American who can say no more than "please" and "thank you" in Farsi?
A Hasidic Jew from Brooklyn who knows a little ancient Hebrew?
An Italian American from Philly, who can barely read a menu in Italian?

All those people are "Anglos", except for the first, huh? What if he has blue eyes? Does that change things? :crazy:

[Celeborn Skywalker]

66. You're right, it's not the best

label.

For some reason, if someone is Hispanic (regardless of race or color) they are not considered Anglo, even if they have blue eyes. They might be called "guero" or even "white" but not "anglo". I don't know the exact reasons, I'm just saying how the label is applied here. I certainly don't think it is said with racist intent. Hell, most "white" people around here self identify as "anglo".

All in all it's very confusing, lol.

[Cal Carpenter]

23. Oh come on Hanna

These are poor people with nothing to lose anyway. Makes more sense to wipe em out so yuppies can have their urban-farm-vegetables and maybe some billionaires can make even more money off land speculation. They may be some of the poorest, least powerful people in the country but if we can squeeze another drop of exploitation outta them then by all means let's go for it. I mean, otherwise we may have to question the motives of the people and corporations who are trying to convince people that 'downsizing' a city is in the interests of the people.

(sarcasm, of course)

Like Barbara Bush said about the New Orleans folks in the Superdome - this could work out very well for them :eyes:

[Romulox]

24. LOL. They want their land...FOR URBAN FARMS!

You and Hannah should conduct a summit of people who don't know a damn thing about Detroit. :hi:

[Cal Carpenter]

27. Um...

you'd be surprised. I've lived in or near Detroit damn near my whole life. And it doesn't take much googling to know what that was a reference to, although I could list a dozen more ridiculous schemes that people who actually don't know a damn thing, nor give a damn, about Detroit are concocting.

It is funny, but not in the way you seem to think.

[Romulox]

29. I'm familiar with the reference; it's a crackpot theory.

"although I could list a dozen more ridiculous schemes that people who actually don't know a damn thing, nor give a damn, about Detroit are concocting."

Ummm...ok. :rofl:

[Cal Carpenter]

33. Keep laughing dude

I don't care. If you think it's funny that corporations would try to make a profit off of 'downsizing' a city like the opportunistic entities that they are, then you must live in a whole different universe than the poor and working class in Detroit. The whole global economy is based on corporate profits at this point, why should Detroit be any different? But for anyone who is interested, here's some info on the land grab bullshit proposed in Detroit earlier this year for 'urban farms'..

"Detroit-based Hantz Farms L.L.C. seeks to create the world’s largest urban farm on underutilized land in the city of Detroit. The for profit venture aims to transform Detroit into a destination for fresh, locally grown natural foods, create a viable, beautiful environment that will enhance the City, attract tourism, increase the tax base, create jobs and greatly improve the quality of life in Detroit. "
http://www.hantzfarmsdetroit.com/press.html

Now this is weird, the original Detroit Free Press article about this seems to be a bad link now, but here's an excerpt from a blog:

"Distrust between nonprofit and potential for-profit farmers in Detroit flared openly this morning during a forum on turning urban agriculture in the city into a business.

Speaking at a forum at the University of Michigan-Dearborn, businessman John Hantz met catcalls and hissing as he advocated the personal profit motive as an answer to many of Detroit’s problems.

When Hantz, who has proposed Detroit’s first large-scale commercial farm, told the audience, “There’s too much talk around the community and not enough around the individual,” one unidentified member of the audience called, “Are you serious, John?”

And when Hantz maintained that he could deliver progress much faster working as an individual than waiting for some broader community effort, another unidentified member of the audience called, “Is your goal to make a profit or to give something back to the city?”"
http://www.urbanfarmhub.org/2010/04/clash-of-the-urban-farmers/

From the horse's mouth:

Future Farming in Detroit or Spectacular Speculation?

---snip---
Sounds lovely, if a bit more than necessary to start a farm. But what is the real business plan? David Whitford of Fortune Magazine writes about Hantz's "revelation":

"We need scarcity," he thought to himself as he drove past block after unoccupied block. "We can't create opportunities, but we can create scarcity." And that, he says one afternoon in his living room between puffs on an expensive cigar, "is how I got onto this idea of the farm."

In other words, there is too much land lying around doing nothing, making it worth almost nothing. If you are in the real estate business, you like scarcity, it drives up prices. Right now he can buy formerly residential land (less toxic than industrial) for $3,000 per acre, and is looking for lower tax rates and contributions of free tax delinquent land. That is the same per acre as a farm in the country. Smack in the middle of a city.

--snip--

Whitford notes that some of the biggest skeptics are the people already farming in Detroit.

much more at link
http://www.treehugger.com/files/2010/01/future-farming-in-detroit.php

There's tons more, doesn't take much effort at all to find it.

[roamer65]

119. As soon as we contract OCP.

Heheheh.

[RandomThoughts]

3. Why would someone burn houses in Detroit?

I figure it is extreamist again. They like to match up things to make correlations.

[JDPriestly]

4. I live in Los Angeles

A few weeks ago, a house in our neighborhood burned because children played with firecrackers on the back of a neighbor's lot. Trees caught fire and the house burned. No extremists were involved, just kids out of control and bored.

[RandomThoughts]

5. There were probably many house fires that day.

So why did the Detroit ones get put on the news that day?

[Hannah Bell]

6. because the fucking fire department didn't show up until most of them burned down.

because detroit's trying to burn out its poor & black.

[Romulox]

14. All Detroit has is its poor and its black. Your theories make no sense.

You don't know anything about Detroit. Nothing I sincerely doubt you've ever set a foot in the city. :hi:

[Hannah Bell]

35. i don't have to have set foot there to know detroit has more than "its poor & its black."

what a bunch of hogwash.

location, location, location.

[Supply Side Jesus]

81. i guess it doesn't matter if the Mayor is black...

you'll just call him a sellout, or make claims which you know nothing about

[Romulox]

84. Or that he was elected by a populace that is 85% black. He's still an "ethnic cleanser"!

:eyes:

[Hannah Bell]

107. you think race matters in money matters? you think white politicians don't

carry out ethnic cleansing against poor whites? you think african dictators don't kill & "cleanse" black people?

[Supply Side Jesus]

118. Dave Bing=Idi Amin

:eyes:

[Hannah Bell]

120. no, he = dave bing, privatizer & collaborator with the ruling class austerity program.

which kills people & detroys lives.

[whistler162]

7. Because of the number of fires and some of the root causes

http://detnews.com/article/20100911/METRO01/9110350/Detroit-residents-question-why-so-many-homes-burned

"
Many of the homes damaged by this week's windswept inferno will be demolished, city officials said Friday. They identified 71 dwellings damaged by fires, 29 of which were occupied, and announced plans to raze 50 within 30 days. At least six were razed Friday.

The fires were caused by downed power lines, winds that gusted at 49 mph and suspected arson, authorities said. Throughout Wayne County, 750 power lines were downed. No injuries were reported.

Detroit fire investigators still are at work but believe arson was involved in two fires, Fire Capt. Katrina Butler said.



From The Detroit News: http://detnews.com/article/20100911/METRO01/9110350/Detroit-residents-question-why-so-many-homes-burned#ixzz108u0L7IG"

X amount of firefighters/equipment can only be spread so far. Part of the problem MAY have been the utility not getting to locations quick enough or turning off the power to a given area.

[Hannah Bell]

9. no, robb bob has *cut* fire service & tasked the department with assisting

pg&e rather than firefighting as priority one.

and yes, pg&e's foisting of its own costs onto the city in the interest of profit *is* a big part of the problem.

[Romulox]

16. Robert Bobb is the Emergency Financial Director for the Detroit Public Schools.

He's not in charge of cuts to fire service. Hope that helps.

[Hannah Bell]

19. sorry, bing. got my neolib shills mixed up.

[dmr]

71. It is true that the fire department has been downsize to the point that

they were unable to arrive in time to stop the fires & not enough fire fighters & equipment to battle them either. The fire department was also watching other downed electrical lines throughout the city.

Other cities came in to help, but the fires were out of control. It was very dry & the high winds & gusts just whipped up the fire storm.

Looking at the map, I recognize the area. This is a part of Detroit where many of the cities' firemen & police officers live(d). My son's Godfather, a retired Detroit cop, lived nearby. I haven't been there in years, so I don't know the situation there. But look at the Google 'street view' & anyone can see these homes & properties are well maintained.

I read where Bing is calling this a natural disaster. I disagree. DTE had been called numerous times about sparking power lines. They didn't take care of it (just like the utility didn't take care of the gas line in the California explosion). The other non-natural disaster is the meager fire services. The city has budgetary problems, but one would think the last thing to cut are departments who provide critical public services.

It's all very sad to me.

[Romulox]

78. I wish this post was the OP. Somebody with some actual knowledge of the situation

and not some canned WSWS "analysis".

[Hannah Bell]

108. the post supports the points the articles from wsws made. guess you don't read.

[Gaedel]

82. Bureaucracies always cut workers

Bureaucracies always cut workers while growing managerial overhead. Detroit is no exception.

[Common Sense Party]

98. Robert Bobb? Is he related to Bob Loblaw?

[JDPriestly]

32. Race. That's the only reason.

Of course, when we had fires in the mountains here in L.A. last summer, it also made the front pages. So the fact that so many houses burned at the same time is frightening.

But most important, this story is news because of the slow response of the fire department -- which reflects the sorry state of our infrastructure at this time.

[Romulox]

13. LOL. It was downed power lines. Nice theory, though.

:silly:

[whistler162]

57. It is from the Weird Sh*t Web Site so what do you expect!

[Starry Messenger]

8. k

[Romulox]

11. Perhaps the OP can regale us with some of her wacky theories about "gentrification" in Detroit

This was probably all a part of it! :silly:

[Gaedel]

15. Yup

There are whole caravans of gentrifiers lined up in moving vans outside the city limits waiting for the corporate-installed Uncle Toms to clear all the blacks out of Detroit so that the gentrifiers can all have nice little lofts and condos.

[Romulox]

17. Only part you missed is that the OP calls this "ANOTHER round of gentrification" in Detroit.

She cannot identify when the last round of gentrification took place in Detroit for love nor money, however. Odd, her theories are otherwise so coherent and rational! :shrug:

[Hannah Bell]

20. did you see the article about foreign capital buying up detroit properties? guess not.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

36. welcome to the wonderful world of tax planning

They are not buying properties is Detroit for redevelopment, their buying them so they can engineer a loss making leasing transaction for a tax write-off. Completely worthless assets can demand quite the premium for tax purposes. The US and Germany are two such countries that have laws favorable to turning worthless property into losses for tax purposes.

[Hannah Bell]

40. “Bilderberg Bill” Gates Invests In Metro Detroit Engine Company

EcoMotors, the company Gates is investing in, is a Detroit-based startup that’s trying to change how our engines operate. But instead of simply changing the kinds of fuel we use, it wants to completely change our cars’ propulsion systems.

http://unstructuredlibertynetworks.wordpress.com/2010/07/14/bilderberg-bill-gates-invests-in-metro-detroit-engine-company/

[Dreamer Tatum]

37. And it all started in the 70's, when the Big Three conspired to make shitty cars

...wow, what a desperately evil conspiracy: a cabal of foreigners conspired with US automakers to start making ugly, shitty, unreliable, inefficient cars, which got the old ball rolling, and now they're just mopping up so foreign interests can roll in and...um...plant urban farms.

Yeah.

Uh huh.

:eyes:

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

38. I love how a few hipster douchebags planting zucchini in vacant lots...

has transformed into a vast land grab conspiracy, "urban farming" is the single stupidest idea I have ever heard - and I don't think I would want to eat anything grown in most cities.

[Hannah Bell]

39. it's not hipster douchebags, it's corporate douchebags.

metro detroit has about 4 million people, a skilled workforce, an international border & major water transport in addition to rail & airlines, and many major corps.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

41. Yeah, Monsanto is going to dig up detroit to grow corn

[Hannah Bell]

42. whatever, dude.

Hantz Farms founder John Hantz is the CEO of Hantz Group, Inc., a financial company in Southfield, Michigan with more than 550 employees and 23 offices in Michigan and Ohio.

http://cleantech.com/news/4336/urban-farming-raises-remediation-co

[Dreamer Tatum]

43. I think you're full of it on this one.

Detroit started its long, painful decline when that CEO was probably still loading his diapers. I know you think all you have to do to prove evil intent is to use the words "CEO" and "corporation," but on the other hand this eeeeevil bastard wants to plant....uhhhhhhhhh....vegetables.

It was only a couple of days ago that people were lamenting urban food deserts.

And boy, if I ever wanted to find arable land in these United States, easy to acquire and transform, there is no better place than.....ummmmmm.....Detroit. Er, yeah.

Face it, Hannah, this guy wants to buy a couple thousand acres and raise crops. Detroit happens to be cheap land right now because the goddamned place has been crumbling for decades.

You cry tears over some goofy stuff.

[Hannah Bell]

46. he's a real estate/developer/finance guy.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

44. the largest agricultural crisis facing America is ABANDONMENT

Farmland is being abandoned at an astonishing rate, the notion that when millions and millions of acres of the worlds finest farmland is laying fallow that corporations are going to demolish cities for agriculture is a paranoid fantasy.

Urban farming is trendy bullshit, nothing more.

[Cal Carpenter]

48. Yes, it's trendy bullshit

but it's more than that right now. It's a gimmick for opportunistic speculators to take advantage of the 'feel-good' trend factor to scoop up land, and it is happening, and it is real.

This Hantz Farms character is a real piece of work. He basically flat-out says he is using the 'urban farm' concept to grab up land cheap and create 'scarcity' for future profits:

""We need scarcity," he thought to himself as he drove past block after unoccupied block. "We can't create opportunities, but we can create scarcity." And that, he says one afternoon in his living room between puffs on an expensive cigar, "is how I got onto this idea of the farm."

In other words, there is too much land lying around doing nothing, making it worth almost nothing. If you are in the real estate business, you like scarcity, it drives up prices. Right now he can buy formerly residential land (less toxic than industrial) for $3,000 per acre, and is looking for lower tax rates and contributions of free tax delinquent land. That is the same per acre as a farm in the country. Smack in the middle of a city."

http://www.treehugger.com/files/2010/01/future-farming-in-detroit.php

On one level (like that of logic), sure this sounds laughably absurd. But on another level (like that of reality), well of course corporate vultures are gonna swoop and make a buck off of a vulnerable population, and of course the local gov't is gonna work on behalf of those vultures, because *that's the whole point of our economic system*.

[AngryAmish]

50. 1. Burn down houses

2. Plant tomatoes
3. ??????
4. Profit.

It is that easy, and that evil.

[Dreamer Tatum]

55. So he buys up fallow land, starts a green industry, and real estate prices go up

because of the clean business...and jobs.

You're going to have to do better if you want to paint this as evil.

Are you really saying that you'd prefer a strip mall to buy that land so they can have more
liquor stores and payday lenders?

I think you are.

[Hannah Bell]

62. homes in detroit are about 55% owner-occupied. in most of the "empty" neighborhoods, the range is

40-60% owner-occupied.

they're talking about moving people out of their homes & paying them "market rates" -- which in some cases will get them a cardboard box downtown.

i've used google street views to look at some of the neighborhoods. by the airport, for example, there will be lots of empty space, then a couple of decently-kept, perfectly functional houses -- with hanging baskets or flowers in the yard. those are the people they want to displace. many of them are probably elderly.

[Dreamer Tatum]

63. Google Views?

Was hoping you'd have actual information. Oh well.

[Hannah Bell]

67. google street views AND the city of detroit's data base mapping % owner-occupied, % vacant,

age of residents, income of residents--

among other data.

but thanks for not disappointing with your ever-snarky worthless comments.

[Dreamer Tatum]

79. Snark is required when confronted with, ummmm...doomsday farming scenarios.

Yeah...let's clear out Detroit so we can PLANT VEGETABLES.

Hee hee. Funny.

[Romulox]

85. The OP, not knowing much about Michigan or Detroit, must not understand how big Michigan is...

There is no need to form a conspiracy in order to secure farmland in Michigan. This is a massive, wide-open state with a mature agricultural industry.

[Hannah Bell]

106. you must not understand the lure of cheap land in a major city with infrastructure, an international

border, waterways, + various kinds of tax credits for purchase & development.

[Barack_America]

111. You are aware, are you not, of the tremendous amount of farmland just over the border...

...in Canada? Essex country, for example.

We buy their tomatoes here in Philly. They've no need for produce coming from Detroit. The flow occurs in the other direction.

[Hannah Bell]

112. it's not about *farm*land.

[blue_onyx]

115. Also

If there was such a strong desire for land there would be no need to start fires to force people out of their homes because there's already vacant land (or land with abandoned buildings) in Detroit.

[Hannah Bell]

121. "unfortunately" there are still some occupied homes interrupting those swaths of unoccupied

territory. that's why they want to remove the survivors.

[blue_onyx]

122. No

There's uninterrupted vacant land and areas of land with empty buildings. For example, there's 35 acres of land with the vacant Packard plant. If there was such a big demand for land, why has this large property been abandoned for 50 years?

[Hannah Bell]

123. delphi packard still owned that land as of 2005, not the city. apparently.

The former auto factory behemoth is being eyed by Hollywood executives, according to Burger Easton and Co. broker David Wax. Wax is selling the property for Delphi Packard, which vacated Detroit fully in 2005...for Packard, which is currently on the market for $13 million:


http://www.mlive.com/news/detroit/index.ssf/2010/01/could_detroits_abandoned_packa.html


which explains why it's not going to be going for a song, with government tax credits to make it even cheaper.


then in 2010 the property turns up owned by something called "Bioresource Inc."

Detroit to Packard Plant owners: Destroy or secure your dangerous property

Bioresource Inc. earlier this week filed a lawsuit against the operators of the 555 Arts gallery for the return of an 8-foot section of wall featuring artwork and a message by elusive British graffiti artist Banksy.

In the suit, Bioresource claimed to be the property's owner and listed local land speculator Romel Casab as president.

"The City of Detroit has had a long history of litigation with Bioresource Inc. over the ownership of this land and the condition of the structures on the property," Detroit Buildings & Safety Engineering Director Karla Henderson told The Associated Press on Thursday. "Now that it is clear and publicly acknowledged who the responsible party is, we will pursue all applicable areas of enforcement to hold the property owner accountable for this unsightly and dangerous situation."

http://www.mlive.com/news/detroit/index.ssf/2010/07/action_planned_against_owners.html


Not surprisingly, the City of Detroit is keenly interested in how the legal proceedings turn out, as it has been attempting to find the true owner of the site for quite some time. The best anyone can figure, the plant is currently owned by a company called Biosource, Inc, and the only person on that company's books is Dominic Cristini. Cristini is currently serving a prison term in California on drug charges, leaving the local government to try to decide how best to go about cleaning up the site.

Of course, now that there's some value to the property and a lawsuit, other potential players have worked their way into the picture. Interestingly, the name on the legal documents is Romel Casab, not Cristini. And Detroit now has another person to question regarding the site and its potential cleanup.

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:yb4PCjUaf3gJ:banksysforum.proboards.com/index.cgi%3Faction%3Ddisplay%26board%3Dbanksyoutside%26thread%3D792%26page%3D7+bioresources+inc+casab&cd=12&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us


But on June 18, Pete Adamo, 57, of Clarkston, a speculator and developer affiliated with the Packard’s owner, Romel Casab, confirmed to the Free Press that mural was excavated by agents working for a partner of the building’s owner.

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:yb4PCjUaf3gJ:banksysforum.proboards.com/index.cgi%3Faction%3Ddisplay%26board%3Dbanksyoutside%26thread%3D792%26page%3D7+bioresources+inc+casab&cd=12&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

The city of Detroit has a long history of litigation with Bioresource, Inc. over an abandoned Packard Motor Car plant on Detroit’s east side. Built in the 1900s, this hazardous 40-acre site has sat unused for approximately forty years. The city wants the plant torn down and condemned. Bioresource, Inc. has denied ownership of the property, probably because the demolition and cleanup of the site could cost upwards of 20 million dollars.

In the midst of a debate over the responsibility for this dangerous plot of land, an image mysteriously emerged on a seven-foot cinder block wall...Shortly after the graffiti appeared, representatives of the 555 Nonprofit Studio and Gallery in Detroit detached the 1,500-pound wall and moved it into their space.

Bioresource, Inc. sued 555 and demanded the return of the mural. The gallery argues that they want to conserve the wall.

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:yb4PCjUaf3gJ:banksysforum.proboards.com/index.cgi%3Faction%3Ddisplay%26board%3Dbanksyoutside%26thread%3D792%26page%3D7+bioresources+inc+casab&cd=12&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us


more on casab:

Talk about getting the deal of the millennium at a neighborhood garage sale.

For a mere $370,000, local real estate investor Romel Casab bought more than half of a $13 million downtown public parking garage without the city’s knowledge —thanks to a bureaucratic snafu.

The city failed to pay a $2,411 Wayne County tax bill when it bought the structure, located between Cobo Hall and Joe Louis Arena, and nobody caught the error for four years. With the taxes delinquent, in September 2002 the county auctioned the half-garage to the highest bidder. Now, the city and county are fighting together in court to nullify the sale.

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:qEnHFZdBqFMJ:www.metrotimes.com/editorial/story.asp%3Fid%3D5369+romel+casab&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

[blue_onyx]

124. And?

You didn't address the point that there's already tons of land that can be redeveloped without displacing residents. All you did is copy and paste all the info on the Packard plant you could find on google.

This theory of a "land boom" and "ethnic cleansing" isn't happening. Even if there was a "land boom" right around the corner, I think most Detroiters would be happy to have people investing in the city.

[Hannah Bell]

125. you must have missed the point. A speculator or corp who owns the land DOESN'T WANT TO GIVE IT AWAY

FOR FREE OR NEXT TO FREE.

And unlike poor black homeowners, you can't move them out so easily via eminent domain.

And the tax credits that allow you to use other people's money to finance are different too.

The land that, for example, the guy who says he wants to farm in Detroit is eyeing is OWNED BY THE CITY. So are the empty blocks near the airport. He wants a sweet deal on public land.


so don't tell me i didn't address it. i did address it, by pointing out to you the difference between land OWNED BY PRIVATE CAPITALISTS & land OWNED BY GOVERNMENT OR INDIVIDUAL HOMEOWNERS.

The other thing that private speculators sometimes do is DELIBERATELY KEEP THEIR PROPERTIES OFF THE MARKET & LET THEM GO TO HELL IN ORDER TO DEPRESS VALUES OF NEARBY PROPERTIES -- for various reasons.

[Barack_America]

109. And less heavy metals in the soil.

I have a hard time believing that urban land would be any farmers first choice...unless that farmer was trying to poison us all!! (duh duh duh! - cue scary music)

[Hannah Bell]

113. that should be your clue that it's not about *farmland*.

[Barack_America]

116. Alien invasion?

Building up our defenses against Canada?

[smalll]

45. There are already trustafarian hipsters worming their way into Detroit --

give it some time, it may become unconscionable.

[Starry Messenger]

49. It's being heavily marketed to them.

Developers are gearing things for what they call the "creative class" for the New Economy.

[Romulox]

52. You people are delusional. Detroit would luuuurve some of them "creative class"

to occupy all those vacant lofts near Wayne State, por ejamplo.

Let's get those all full up, and then we can talk about your "a) engineer a windstorm to down power lines; b) hope they hit some homes and start fires!; c) let them burn; d) urban farming!!!; e) creative class = kaching!" scheme.

[blue_onyx]

58. This is crazy

I thought the "Detroit is being ethnically cleansed" comments were bad but now fires are being started to burn people out of their homes?

I agree...Detroit would love to have a "creative class." I've read articles about artists coming to Detroit for its cheap housing. I fail to see why this is bad.

[Romulox]

59. The OP and the WSWhatever don't know or care about Detroit.

They just want to shoehorn whatever the tragedy-du-jour is into their existing propaganda templates. That's what angers me about threads like this.

[Hannah Bell]

70. The wsws writers on the topic *live* in detroit. that's how they get on-the-scene

video & interviews of fires & community meetings.

unlike people from dearborn or the MSM.

[Romulox]

75. LOL. So then, by your own logic--YOU--have the least perspective here, and me, the second most.

:hi:

[Hannah Bell]

117. no, it's *your* logic; that's what you don't get. you're the one who's running all over this thread

& previous ones saying *i* don't live in detroit & wsws doesn't know anything about detroit, & putting yourself up as an expert.

as we've already established, *you* live in dearborn. 86% white, median family income $53K.

it's lost 17% of its population since 1960. maybe they'll be using eminent domain on *your* place soon as well.

[msanthrope]

72. Yesterday, it was that International Harvester had engineered Oprah's and Obama's

respective rises to fame....

Expect lists of 'connections' and 'elites.'

FYI--I was on the last public tour of Tiger Stadium. I have dirt/gravel from the warning track.....and a spike from Michigan Central...

I'm gonna remember this thread as the "Monsanto cornfields in Detroit" batshit crazy theory...

[Hannah Bell]

73. Oh, bullshit.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x9171716

[msanthrope]

74. I appreciate you posting the link to the thread where you claim that "chicago elites" are the real

power behind Oprah---them, and apparently, the trail leads back to International Harvester....

[Romulox]

86. I'm just waiting for her to do the same sort of critique of AFT that she does of UAW

(OP appears to be another teachers union advocate/uaw agonist)

[Hannah Bell]

126. you must not have been paying attention. i regularly call AFT'S president a collaborator, as

anyone who's been on the teachers' forums can tell you.

don't let that little factual matter stop you from your constant personal attacks, though.

wouldn't be rom w/o them.

[Starry Messenger]

54. I have you on ignore, R.

Maybe when you learn to read articles, we can talk.

[Romulox]

56. That's a funny sort of ignore. But by all means, let no facts penetrate your delusions.

:hi:

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

69. Logoff, read, logon.

That's why he replied to his own post and not yours.

[Romulox]

76. That's sad. Sorry that my words flummoxed him.

:silly:

[Starry Messenger]

105. Thank you.

Only one correction, I'm female. :D

[uncommon]

89. That looked like you don't believe in gentrification. I certainly hope that isn't the case since

it's hardly a matter for debate. I don't know about Detroit in particular, but we've seen it in force in areas of New York.

[Romulox]

102. There is no gentrification in Detroit. Maybe it's a big deal in Seattle. It's not the problem here

"I don't know about Detroit in particular, but we've seen it in force in areas of New York"

The subject of this thread is Detroit, not New York. They're dissimilar enough that your knowledge of the latter can't be easily transposed to the former. :hi:

[Barack_America]

114. Someone seems to have not read up on the white flight.

And seriously, with a land mass the size of Manhattan, San Francisco and Boston combined, there's space for everybody. I mean, last I checked, whites were moving back into downtown Detroit, where nobody lived before. I live in a zone of rabid gentrification here in Philly and let me tell you, what's happening here bears no comparison to Detroit.

[Wednesdays]

93. Forget the farming thing, Hannah, here's the scandal we ALL can dig into!

Even if there's something to the farming conspiracy, not everyone here on DU is agreeing with you.

However, here's something just about everyone can relate to...San Bruno, anyone?

Youtube: "Detroit fire victims say they called DTE days before blaze"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wI4xdjKXAcw

[Barack_America]

97. Ah, it's DU's resident critic of all things Detroit.

:eyes:

Never mind that all cities fire department resources are limited, making such a scenario possible everywhere.

[Pathwalker]

103. I've only seen the winds be as bad in Michigan once before in my 40+yrs. in Michigan.

than they were the day of the Detroit fires.That day was July 2nd, 1977. On that day, I weighed considerably less than I do now, and the winds knocked me flat on my ass. They day of the Detroit fires, they just knocked me against a wooden fence. We had to chase our outdoor furniture flying into the street, stuff our wheeled trash container in the garage, etc. etc....
But I guess those hideous winds played no part in their spread? And not one word about Detroit's aging infrastructure... :shrug:

[Hannah Bell]

110. in the case of robinwood, it was dte's failure to deal with their downed line.

for days.

"If you keep calling, we're going to give you a service charge."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wI4xdjKXAcw