Do you think the vast majority of American students have the potential to succeed

[apples and oranges]

in every subject area, including math and science? Or are some students just not smart enough to do well in certain subjects? I'm especially interested to hear the opinions of teachers. (Note: I'm not talking about students with proven learning disabilities)

[seabeyond]

1. i have a son that consistently rates off charts in reading, reading comprehension and writing, yet

lowest of low on the math. i think he should do better. i insist he does it. but every kind of test he takes, it shows his ability in math does not inspire. last year, looking at another test with principal and counselor, breaking it down, on an interesting test that really breaks down everything, it was there once again, and i finally had to give it to the kid, math is more difficult.

i have another child that is off the charts even more in reading and reading comprehension, and writing, to the extent of being top 98% in nation and wins all kinds of awards, dropping "a little bet" in math. math is harder for him. especially since science, history and english has never required effort for him. he has to think a little. he doesnt get a lot of empathy, for having to "think" a little.

i know other children have challenge with reading and reading comprehension, and yes they struggle.

i know there has to be a below, in average, as much as there is a higher. simple math. that is going to make learning more challenging.

i know growing up in an evironment that is anti education, a wall is going to make the work impossible.

[zipplewrath]

14. No one is "bad at math"

There will always be people better at math than others. This is true of any skill. And anyone with a natural "talent" will always have an advantage over one who is willing to build skill despite talent (as my golf game will attest). However, I've never really met any child that is "bad at math". I get asked to work regularly with students who struggle with math at some level. In every case, they weren't "bad at math". They had some particular mental "block" the were fighting, and I frequently could find it. But I've studied ALOT of math over the decades and I can point to several "mental blocks" I had to overcome, all the way back to long division.

I don't know your child, so I'm not going to tell you that you're wrong. But I would say, be careful of letting him, or yourself, think of him as "bad at math". Math is darn close to a universal language or concept. It is about as close as an "innate" bit of knowledge as man has. "Math" covers a wide variety of concepts and skills including counting, numerical combination (arithmetic), algebra, geometry, trigonometry, calculus, statistics, probability, and beyond. For all the attention that physicists like Hawking get, probably the most advanced mathematics being done today is in the insurance industry with actuaries.

Just because your kid will never be (nor want to be) an actuary, doesn't mean he is "bad at math". He has strengths and weaknesses like any kid. And at this point he probably finds the struggle frustrating which leads to avoidance. It probably would help for a while if he had someone to help him figure out his "mental blocks" of which he may have many by now. It will take someone whose focus is on how he is "doing it" not on how they want him to do it. Once that is figured out, one can build on what he naturally wants to do, instead of fighting that tendency.

[exboyfil]

18. Any suggestions for materials to overcome

mental blocks. My youngest daughter is facing this in math. It is by far her weakest subject, but with her career aspirations, becoming a medical doctor, she needs to at least get through Calculus I (possibly II).

She seems to get into a computational loop and is unable to do problems she earlier could do. One example was when we were studying photosynthesis/respiration this summer for Life Sciences I. She knew the chemical formulas perfectly earlier in the summer, but she could not duplicate them unless the formula was in front of her. We went through 10 cycles trying for her to reproduce the formula from memory. I stopped and took a walk with her and we discussed it. When we came back, she was able to do the formula.

I have seen the same thing happen with mixed fractions. Sometimes she can do a wonderful job with them, but other times she gets stuck in a loop. I am concerned that if she loops on a test, then she will lose any chance for an A. Next year she has Algebra which counts towards her GPA. I do not know if holding her back and taking Algebra in 9th grade would be a solution. It would mess up her sequencing for Science and probably eliminate her chances for a scholarship anyway. I think it would be better to get the B and move on.

[seabeyond]

20. "I'm not going to tell you that you're wrong. " yes you are, and did.

but that is ok, cause you are right and i appreciate your post. this kid is much more analytical than my oldest that doesnt test low. this son seemed to recognize the language of numbers before letters. i have always been so surprised that he scores so low. why i said, i sat down with principal and counselor and really went over his tests scores last year and went thru his history of scores.

all of us feel he should be much more fluent in his math.

i dont do well in the math courses, but i love numbers and do it all in my head out of feel, practically. hubby has engineering and statistics degree but defers to me when calculating numbers in head. it feels like son is par, yet scores dont show it

was talking yesterday, how he cannot remember his simple multiplication and year after year i have to go over them with him again.

he has learning and physical issues that are tied into neurological issues, we just dont get it, regardless of all the testing we have done.

i have a tutor for him this year, he can keep for the year. he is in preAP algebra in 7th grade and struggles... though making a B. i want him to understand though, and not skate by, because in a couple years he will have alg2 and need that foundation. i think it is what you are suggesting. this tutor is a teacher. maybe i can discuss this with her, and the time in, she can clue into what the issue is. i really think math is something that should be comfortable for him

thanks, appreciate your post.

[zipplewrath]

22. Sorry, I really didn't mean to

I guess I should have said it that way, "I don't mean to tell you you're wrong". I should have said it that way because I mean it. What I was really trying to say is, "don't give up yet". You "could" be wrong. You're description of you and your husbands interaction is interesting. Arithmatic is what you are describing, multiplication and addition mostly.

There are many ways to do "numerical combinations". Memorizing "tables" or "flash cards" is a very common way. But I've worked with kids that did much better by working with poker chips basically. I put them in "shapes" to emphasize the "question". 3 x 2 is three rows of 2 poker chips each. 6 x 5 is 6 rows of 5, and if you "turn" the board on which the chips lay, it becomes 5 rows of 6, there by teaching the concept that they are the "same thing" and why. There are folks that learn on an abacus or similar device. They actually "see" multiplication in terms of the shapes that device creates. Experts don't even "need" the device anymore, they just visiualize one and "solve" the problems. You, and potentially your son, may actually "visualize" the answers some how. And old joke is for people having trouble solving a problem is to put a dollar sign ($) in front of the problem. Alot of people understand math alot better when it involves money. My wife understand "percentage" much more easily if I just mention that it is a "30% sale".

By the way, there is some indications that the ancient mathmeticians were much like you. It appears that much of math was done through what we would now consider "geometry". It wasn't really until around 400 AD, when the concept of the numerical "zero" was "discovered" that we learned and studied arithmatic through the manipulations of "symbols" (numbers) instead of geometry.

[seabeyond]

23. interesting. thanks. hey, tell me....

why o they have the kids do algebra, then geometry, then back to algebra that goes off the first course, but giving a year for kids to forget the algebra 1. why wouldnt it be algrebra, algebra 2 then geometry?

on edit: i hope you see. thanks for telling me not to accept, give up. is against who i am, lol. they convinced me last year, but is a hard one for me to buy. so i really needed to hear it.

[zipplewrath]

24. It's a tough progression

I'm kicking around writing a book called "you're not bad at math". It's basically an attempt to explore all the different ways we solve problems and give people different points of views on problem solving. I keep getting "stuck" on fractions. Here's why. Fractions are basically "simple algebra". We think of it as just another form of division, which it is, but what we are really trying to teach kids is to manipulate equations, without solving them. The rules of fractions are derived from the rules of algebra. And in order to study geometry, you need to know some algebra. So we teach fractions, then algebra (sometimes called pre-algebra) then geometry, which has to include some very early trigonometry, then we need to "finish" algebra (and then if you keep going you'll take "analytical geometry which is basically the fusion of geometry and and algebra). This then all gets followed by calculus, for which you'll need ALL of these skills, and in fact will make them make alot more sense.

[seabeyond]

25. excellent, thanks for the info. makes sense

i knew it had to make sense, cause it is the way it is.... didnt know why

appreciate it

good luck with your book.

[surrealAmerican]

28. This is somewhat off topic but, I'm going to let you in on a little secret.

There are plenty of kids (and adults) out there who are rather good at math who never quite memorized their times tables. They just found ways to calculate the number they need when they need it.

[seabeyond]

30. numbers are so easy for me, i rounf off to ten on everything then do the simple addition or subtract

i can do it so quickly in head, i come up with numbers faster than someone using a calculator or trying to remember what answer is. so, i may be doing more math than memorization, but it works for me.

that is why i never had issue with son. certain ones i still have to take to another number and add/subtract. i have been working with son to play with numbers like that in head. huge game for me.

but

it is really nice to hear that. son and i just grin... lol, sheepishly.

[Art_from_Ark]

2. Different kids have different aptitudes and different talents

Not everyone can be a math whiz, or a science whiz. That doesn't mean they're dumb, just that they have different talents. I remember one kid from my elementary school who had trouble speaking and keeping up with the lessons. He was removed from our classroom right in the middle of a lesson one day, and he acted like they were taking him off to jail. They were actually taking him to the "Special education" section. As it turned out, several years later, the kid had a knack for understanding industrial machinery.

[pampango]

3. The vast majority of students everywhere have the potential to succeed as has always been the case.

The society they grow up in largely determines whether they live up to that potential.

Poverty (and the problems often associated with it), discrimination (by race, gender, religion, caste, or whatever) and societies' attitude towards the importance of education, all affect how much children actually learn. Societies on the way "up" transmit the importance of education to children, while those on the way "down" find any number of reasons why educating children is "too difficult" or just not that important compared to other societal issues - war, tax cuts for the rich, adults' needs vs. children's needs (children don't vote, you know :) ).

[Uben]

4. Certainly not

People are different. Some people are wired for math, some not, and that goes for other subjects as well.

My daughter was developmentally behind her classmates growing up. She struggled with school, almost every subject, for years.
She was tested for learning disabilities, more than once, and it was determined she had none. Now, as a senior in high school, she is making all A's. Sometime in the last couple of years, something clicked, and she's getting stuff she once couldn't.

Some people will never understand some subjects as well as others. That's just a fact of human life. One doesn't have to be proficient in every subject to succeed. My best friend dropped out of school in the eighth grade and went to work for a printing company. Twenty years later, he bought his own press and opened his own business. Now, he is a retired multi-millionaire!

Sometimes, it's not the grades you make, it's the hands you shake that gets things moving.

Some people just never get that urge to succeed in anything. They are wired to be perfectly happy doing their 9 to 5 jobs for 30 or forty years, and that's fine.

[MadHound]

5. There are very few students, relatively speaking, who can blow it out in every subject

That's just not the way most people are hard wired. Most people have areas where they're good at and areas where they're mediocre at best. The interesting thing is that sometimes these areas aren't necessarily actual subject areas. For instance I know a brilliant engineer who also enjoys literature and is an accomplished musician. The problem, his interpersonal skills suck in a major way.

Gardener's Multiple Intelligence theory tells us that people have their own strengths and weaknesses, and that few people are good in everything the try. This is born out by hard data. While a student might blow the doors down in verbal subjects like History and English, getting A's and other honors, in the area of math and science they will be getting B's or worse.

If you look at the geniuses of our day and throughout history, very few of them were brilliant in all areas.

[LWolf]

6. How do you define success? nt

[apples and oranges]

10. success would be completing the course with a B or better

Maybe not loving the subject, but able to get through it. It seems that in other countries, all students are expected to perform at a certain level.

[Mass]

13. What course? In most highschool, there are many levels, from non college prep to AP.

[LWolf]

35. And, in other countries, those who don't simply end their education. nt

[Warpy]

7. It depends on how you define success

If you're talking about academic success, no.

If you've broadened it to include athletic, artistic, mechanical, and other forms of mastering the world around them, then the answer is yes.

The challenge is finding out where talents lie and then nurturing those talents.

Nearly all can be taught how to read and write and do enough arithmetic to survive, though.

[ThomWV]

8. No.

[stray cat]

9. I do not believe the poor are genetically born inferior to the middle class

So I don't believe genetics explains the failure of many poor inner city and rural schools

[Mass]

11. Loaded question. What does succeed means? Can every kid learn some basic (and non so basic knowledge

yes.

Can every kid take AP Calculus: NO, and it is not necessary.

This said, my major objection to the Duncan's reform is that it is just another "one size fits all" program rather than helping students learn according to their learning style and emphasizing their skills.

(and students with learning disabilities can learn too, assuming they are taught properly!).

[woo me with science]

12. This is less a relevant question than

"Can all students learn?" The answer to, "Can all students learn?" is a resounding "yes." You do not write off students - you do not write off any human being - because YOU decide for them that they cannot succeed. You do not use that as an excuse for allowing them to stagnate in school.

All students, even the most severely challenged, are capable of learning, and it is a teacher's job to facilitate that.

An effective teacher is one whose students are making progress, and that is one metric by which teachers can and should be evaluated.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

15. Probably not, but every kid has the potential to at least be proficient.

Make no mistake - education reform isn't about creating a society of uber-Einsteins. It's about getting kids to at least know what a friggin laser beam is, as most Americans sadly do not. http://people-press.org/report/528/ (Scroll down to the "Science Knowledge" section and look at the cutout box on the right.)

[zipplewrath]

16. Yes

The question really is, what is anyones interest in attempting to do so? Knowledge has value, but there are only so many hours in the day. Exposure to major subject areas is important, but I probably have done "okay" not having much expertise in art history. Would I be a "better person" if I did? Probably. But at what cost? Would that be more important than the hours and years I put in doing suicide prevention?

Our public school system has evolved based upon an economic need to give our population some fundamental level of knowledge and ability in a variety of subjects. It has morphed from some concept of giving children a "liberal arts" education, into a more "trade school" approach of generating good workers. The real question at this point is which of those two approaches, or what combination thereof, is the "right" answer for our future.

[bluedave]

17. no

Unfortunately though the rich need ditchdiggers

[Lyric]

19. It has nothing to do with intelligence.

In school, my IQ was testing for the "gifted" program several times, with the highest score ever (in 10th grade--the last test) pinning me at 164. This was at a rural high school in Bridgewater, VA. The teachers and admins were stunned; they'd never had a student test that high, and they were expecting "great things" from me in terms of math and science. The problem is that math is NOT my strong point. I'm really, really good at logic and patterns and codes, and I aced AP biology because so much of it involved genetics--which is really just a series of codes, when you think about it. I took the ASVAB just for the heck of it, and got through the "Coding" section in just a few minutes, with a perfect score. But my greatest gift is for language--the most complicated code of all.

I can glance at a list of anagrams and figure them out almost instantly (which makes me an unbelievable Scrabble player). I can sense subtle rhythms and patterns in language that help me to write very good poetry and prose. I'm very good at learning other languages, too--I took French AND Spanish in high school, and I'm taking Russian in college. However, I have always been a disappointment in the math department. It just hasn't "clicked" with me yet. Maybe if I'd had a teacher who taught it differently--emphasizing the WHYS (the patterns) rather than telling me a list of rules and neglecting to explain them--I'd be better at it. But it's definitely NOT intuitive with me; at least, not the way that language is. I've never told any of my college professors about my supposed "genius" because such a disclosure never ends well. They end up expecting a fantastic mind for math, and I just don't have it. Give me words or a string of nucleotides to analyze, and I'm all over it. Calculus formulas? Not so much.

Too many people make the false assumption that high intelligence automatically means that you're fantastic at math and science. It really doesn't work that way.

[Codeine]

21. Nope. Nobody likes to admit it, but some kids are just dumb.

We have this notion that everyone is equally bright, but plenty of folks are operating at a clear intellectual disadvantage.

[kctim]

26. Potential? Yes.

Desire? No.

[lumberjack_jeff]

27. Yes.

Absent a severe developmental disability, every single incoming kindergarten student has the potential to succeed in every single subject area.

That's not to suggest that it's easy.

[Johonny]

33. it's a pretty low bar for succeed

I don't think every person has what it takes to be an Olympic athlete, but nearly every student can do and learn basic athlete concepts, like running, swimming, jumping, etc. I think just about every American has the ability to learn to read and write, to do basic math and to learn basic science concepts. Not everyone is going to be a top flight research scientist, but pretty much everyone can learn basic concepts. While not all children have the basic support structure at home and in society to succeed in education, few people are born without the potential to at least understand high school level math and science.

[dionysus]

29. i think over half of people in general are idiots. there's some things that will be too hard for

people.

[seabeyond]

31. mathmatically it doesnt work for over half to be under average...

or

idiots, lol

[Greyhound]

32. No, we do not think that, we know it. n/t

:kick: & U

[realisticphish]

34. Interesting topic

I would say my answer is succeed, but not necessarily excel. There is a certain base level that should be attainable by all without learning disabilities. The only question is where that level would be established