Why I've changed my mind on impeachment

[GaYellowDawg]

I was one of the ones defending the decision to take impeachment off of the table because I thought that impeachment couldn't work. I still think that impeachment can't work; too many Republicans in the Senate for that. However, I've come to the conclusion that there are some windmills worth tilting at. I've got two reasons for my change in thinking:

1) SOME sort of statement has to be made to the rest of the world, and to history. Even if it doesn't work, at least the rest of the world can look at America and think that there are some of us worth something, and perhaps it might put a little caution into the heart of the next really awful President.

2) The only way to keep the Bush administration from doing the maximum amount of completely stupid shit is to make it so busy saving its own ass that it has no time for anything else. Honestly, if it meant losing the 2008 elections it'd be worth it.

IMPEACH.

[BuyingThyme]

1. Yes, impeach.

[Rabrrrrrr]

2. Absolutely right - IMO, the primary reason for impeachment is to send a message.

People often say that Ford helped heal the nation by pardoning Nixon and avoiding the long impeachment process - I think that's bullshit. Ford kept the country from healing - all he did was enable us to pretend nothing happened, like an alcoholic family that won't admit to the presence of the alcoholic.

We have to impeach so that future presidents know that, yes, they will be held accountable; and so the rest of the world, as you say, will look at us and say "Look - they're taking care of it, or at least trying! Maybe we CAN trust them again!"

We need to impeach because our Consstitution demands it.

[Herman74]

33. Exactly. We should impeach not primarily for ourselves, but for...

...those of the future. We need to reinforce the principle that wanton lawlessness and disregard for human life both arising from paranoia, intolerance, and greed cannot be tolerated. In defending the sanctity of law and of human life, we provide some degree of guidance for generations yet to come.

Were we not to impeach, it would be like us saying, "we didn't think that what Bush & Company did was all that bad." This is NOT something we want history to record about us.

[AndyA]

3. Yes, if for no other reason than to keep Bush & Co. busy with subpoenas,

hearings, testimony, etc., for the last two years it will be worth it.

Plus, it will give anyone in the future a reason to pause before they do something illegal or against the Constitution. If we value our country, we must uphold its laws. And that is especially true for people in the Executive and Legislative Branches of government. They should know better than the average citizen what is and what is not acceptable.

Plus, I truly believe once the dirty laundry begins to be aired, lots of GOPers running for reelection will jump on the impeachment bandwagon, if for no other reason than to save their own skin. To not support impeachment when high crimes are revealed is a sure track to a new job in the private sector.

[lyonn]

23. Absolutely agree, Keep Bush Busy saving his sorry rear and

get his mind completely off Iran. You know, the Iran that could make him really important by attacking them while he has a chance. sarcasm

Besides, if any Pres. was eligible for Impeachment it is bush. Screw the political angle and how this might hurt the Dems. How about the fact that bush is destroying our country.

[rock]

4. An important reason why I'm for impeachment is

It will clearly delineate those in Congress. The voters deserve to know.

[Hubert Flottz]

9. The reason I'm for it is as follows...

Bush and Cheney are both guilty as hell...of "High Crimes" and the GOP in congress know it too!

[Vincardog]

11. Not only delineate those in Congress, while that is a great thing but also KEEP aWoL out of IRAN

IF he is busy defending the IRaq lies he will be too busy to start shit in Iran.

Impeach convict indict convict and imprison

[lyonn]

25. Exactly..... n/t

[beth9999]

5. Forget Bush...

... he's going to be gone in less than two years anyway.

What we really need to do is impeach some of the Repug Supreme Court justices. People like Roberts, Scalia, Alito and Thomas are going to be ruining America for the next twenty years. We need to take them off the bench -- they're a far greater danger than Bush is.

[WinkyDink]

31. Get The Decider. The Unitary President, who fancies himself ABOVE the SCOTUS.

[radfringe]

6. Put it on a PLATE and then put it on the TABLE

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x90868

[ellie]

7. The whole lot of them should be

removed from office. Immediately. It is the least that should be done to these people. There is no fixing what has happened in Iraq. There is no making right the fact that so many Americans and Iraqis have been killed and maimed. No one can make it better. Impeachment will stop it from becoming worse.

[fryguy]

8. point of clarification

Impeachment is done by the House, trial and removal from office is done by Senate.

Pedantic, I know, but it drove me crazy listening to GOPers during the Clinton-circus who couldn't understand why, after he was impeached by the House, he remained in the White House.....

[GaYellowDawg]

14. Aargh - not pedantic! A good correction.

It's so easy to conflate impeachment with removal, and I did.

To me, impeachment without removal is nothing more than a really strong censure, so I still think that anything short of that which results in removal is kind of tilting at windmills. However, the prospect of removal, I think, would reflect well on us as a nation and keep the Bush administration so busy obstructing justice that they would have a lot less time left over to completely screw things up.

[RaleighNCDUer]

10. Re: #2

The repukes used investigations and impeachment to keep Clinton from accomplishing much of anything for years - If we really believe that Clinton COULD have done more without the impediment of the impeachment we have to believe that impeachment, even if unsuccesful, can help prevent more damage by this administration.

[CTyankee]

19. Great point. But there is another reason for Dems to start the impeachment

process. We now have polls saying that a good portion of the American public would look on impeachment of Bush favorably. This is of course VERY different from the Clinton impeachment, when most of the people DID NOT want him impeached. Once the possibility of impeachment is out there, the people will join us and lobby their Congresspersons and let their Senators know how they feel. Our footdraggers in the Congress will hear from their constituents and defy them at their peril in the polls in 2008!

[lyonn]

26. I like your thinking, the public is against bush

Clinton had high approval ratings during his impeachment hearing and afterwards. That will not be the case with bush. Most want him out.

[twilight_sailing]

12. With you 100%

"1) SOME sort of statement has to be made to the rest of the world, and to history. Even if it doesn't work, at least the rest of the world can look at America and think that there are some of us worth something, and perhaps it might put a little caution into the heart of the next really awful President.

2) The only way to keep the Bush administration from doing the maximum amount of completely stupid shit is to make it so busy saving its own ass that it has no time for anything else. Honestly, if it meant losing the 2008 elections it'd be worth it.

IMPEACH."


When the going gets tough, the tough get going.

[Old and In the Way]

13. I agree....if the Republican Senators vote to acquit, let them explain it to their constituents.

Impeachment proceedings simply acknowledges that Bush and the Executive Branch have met the threshold for triggering a Senate trial and vote. I believe that the evidence warrants a vote, but the outcome will be political. Those that elect to exonerate him in the Senate can justify their vote to those that elect them. If they are kicked out because of the vote, that will also be part of the record.

It will also serve to put future Deciders on notice that there are consequences to trashing our Constitution to further your political agenda....

[EFerrari]

15. Welcome aboard, GaYellowDog. Let's keep Junior busy.

Let's make him a busy little man.

And, let's get Nancy to set the table:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x90868

:toast:

[truedelphi]

16. Besides, I think INITIALLY impeachment doesn't usually

Look like a sure thing - and please feel free to correct, but when the impeachment hearings on Nixon BEGAN, it wasn't a slam dunk

It only became that as the house of cards tumbled (in part because of Woodward and bernstein)

True we don't have such a decent press these days - but the blogs are starting to be listened to, and some indy media (like Raw Story) gets a few cuts in now and then

And let's face it - this Administration self implodes - it has had so much just blow up on itself (Remember how several weeks prior to Nov 7 '06, one scandal followed another followed another until you could harldy keep up with the count)

[NoSheep]

17. Impeach to show the world America is NOT BUSH and to stop another WAR

Now that Iran is looking so close...we don't have a choice. Damn. I wish it were up to me because I'd have started last week sometime.

[mmonk]

18. Welcome aboard!

[chknltl]

20. 20 responses and not one consideration about our own safety

I SUPPORT IMPEACHMENT FOR AMERICA'S SAFETY!

We all know that the bfee has done more to swell the ranks of the terroristic jihadists. I am NOT insinuating that the problems over in Iraq are due to these guys...I am referring to those like Osama bin Laden who DO want to see AMERICA brought down. HIS armies are growing because HIS arguments are not being refuted by WE THE PEOPLE. You all know that we we have:
1: invaded a Middle Eastern Country under false pretenses.
2: have occupied that same country, constructed prisons in which to detain and torture the citizens of the Middle East.
3: used wmd on not only our enemy combatants but have allowed these weapons to cause carnage on the civilian populace in the Middle East. (Just research Depleted Uranium here in the DU if you need a reminder).
4: stolen the valuable resources from the citizens of Iraq...(oil).
5: threaten the neighboring countries of Iraq.
6: deposed the leader of Iraq and replaced him with a government which suits OUR needs.

So if the folks whom we have victimized throughout the Middle East aren't angry enough at us how do you suppose they are gonna feel when we give bushco a pass by NOT impeaching the bastards? What message would you give to the guy in Iraq whose city we have bombed, whose living we have disrupted, whose electricity, water and sewage is spotty at best, whose children fear to go to school and whose relatives and neighbors fear each day may be their last...WHAT MESSAGE DO YOU GIVE THAT GUY WHEN OSAMA BIN LADEN COMES AROUND AND OFFERS HIM A CHANCE TO GET EVEN!!!

Worse yet by not impeaching and removing the bushbastards, not only have you exacerbated this but YOU PLACE OUR SAFETY IN BUSCO'S HANDS! Do you REALLY trust him and his cronies with the task of protecting you and yours from further 9-11s?

Please...don't let me say I told you so...
c

[cascadiance]

21. I wonder if too much of congress feels they will be shown as "guilty"...

Normally I would think that most people, even elected officials, would for the most part be decent people trying to do their job within the rules laid down for them. However, with the way campaign financing is SO corrupt now and has lobbyists basically making participating in institutionalized bribery almost a requirement instead of an option to anyone getting elected there, perhaps too many in congress feel they have too many skeletons in their closet that they are afraid to open with full investigations going on of "sacrifices" they've made to lobbyists, etc. to get elected and get anything done in congress.

If that's what we're faced with, it maybe next to impossible to get any kind of meaningful impeachment investigations, as each congress critter is afraid of what might bite back at them if they touch the real heavy issues that this administration is involved with that still haven't been made public yet.

I'm wondering if we need something like what South Africa has had as a "Truth Commission" which defines ways of getting amnesty for certain kinds of crimes/actions that perhaps we can come to some agreement are more of a symptom of our corrupt system than the root core of it. Then perhaps we might get more congress people to come forward if they know the dark corners they have in their closet can be forgiven in the same way instead of the real serious stuff that folks like Delay, Bush, Cheney, Gonzales, etc. are involved with. If we do that, then perhaps the questions to ask are what kinds of minor crimes/actions (earmarks, etc.) that we would want to let go and not prosecute or take action on.

Now, since these are all elected officials, even if we don't hold them criminally liable for certain actions with this sort of commission, they still might be made to pay for their sins at the voting booth by the voter who can't find it in their heart to vote for someone that's done certain things. However, I might contend if things proceed the way the "Truth Commission" worked in South Africa, if voters feel that their congress people/senators are going before this commission and being completely honest about themselves, even if some of it is kind of ugly, that voters might respect that courage and re-elect them anyway if their transgressions aren't too serious.

But I do wonder if we're getting to that stage in our government where the system is getting to be as broken as the apartheid government was then where it was hard for the individual to fight against what they might have felt was wrong, and need some way to find an escape from its traps too.

[flying rabbit]

34. I think that might be big part of the problem

sticking their hands in the cookie jar= gotta hide that guilty secret

[cascadiance]

22. BTW, I like your logo, here's another synonym you might like!

Speaking of using the word "peach" in it, etc. it might be amusing to some that the word "piç" (pronounced "peach") in Turkish means bastard. Go here for that translation:

http://online.ectaco.co.uk/main.jsp%3bjsessionid=bc30bb7d19e6257b1b38?do=e-services-dictionaries-word_translate1&direction=1&status=translate&lang1=23&lang2=tr&source=bastard

"Iyim" is translated to "I'm fine" in Turkish.

So when we say "Impeach", it probably sounds like to Turks like we're saying "Iyim, piç!" or "I'm fine, bastard!"

I wonder if the Turks like to hear that a lot! :)

[cascadiance]

32. An Armenian friend just told me that "abush" means idiot in Armenian...

... so if we group these together, then we can throw out "Impeach a Bush!" as a puzzle in a discussion/argument thread where Turks and Armenians are arguing and challenge them to collectively translate it to "I'm fine! Bastard Idiot!"! :) Perhaps they might appreciate our obsession with impeaching Bush more too! :)

[shield20]

24. Well, #2 worked with Clinton -

history could repeat itself with GW. Once the Monica scandal broke, he was pretty much ineffective as a President.

[Toucano]

27. I agree, but my question is:

What happens after a successful impeachment and removal?


I just don't understand all the probable scenarios.

Any help?

[chknltl]

28. Nationwide party

snark aside: When we have President Pelosi, there is much that will need to be done...putting our own political house in order, reconfiguring our foreign policies and most importantly healing a wounded nation...these three will need to happen as soon as possible although the healing will take awhile. America needs at the very least a two party system lest we backslide to what bushco was trying to accomplish, so healing may need to include reconstructing a devastated republican party too. (I am quite open to alternative notions on that last item but you must agree that America will not be worth a damn if we have only one party and a few fractured unimportant and emasculated other parties left over after the purges which will likely occur due to the outings of the entire bfee...our Republican counterparts ARE AMERICANS too ya know!)

But I hope we get at least one day to party! (Perhaps we can have lotsa fireworks and fine speech makings and maybe even WE THE (other) PEOPLE can affix little American flags onto our car antennas this time!
:patriot:
c

[GaYellowDawg]

29. There are probably lots who know better than I...

but I've got the distinct impression that impeachment and removal from office is simply a firing, and doesn't constitute any sort of punishment legally. It seems as if criminal proceedings would go from there.

I think that if Ford hadn't pardoned Nixon, he would have had some jail time coming.

[porphyrian]

30. Let's stop the bastards. - n/t

[Senator]

35. It's Far More Than "Some of Us Worth Something"

Even without conviction in the Senate, Impeachment articles voted out of the House currently has "the consent of the governed" attached -- as a result of the midterm elections.

This is something the never-elected, never-legitimate regime cannot claim -- now, or for history.

It does in fact get the American People "off the hook" for that which they do not bear real responsibility.

It is also the only path to real redemption and a possible return to our once-proud place in the world community.

Oh, and welcome aboard. It's a bit dated now, but here's a RoadMap (of sorts).

---

[Faux pas]

36. I was highly incensed when pelossi took 'impeachment off the

table'. In my mind she was saying that all the damage bush has done and will do is NOTHING. We the people deserve better than that. Keep the crooks busy answering subpoenas-I LOVE IT!

[OneBlueSky]

37. I too was against impeachment for practical reasons . . .

but I changed my mind for much the same reasons you cited . . . if nothing else, it could keep BushCo so occupied defending their "legacy" that they might not have the time or space to, say, bomb the shit out of Iran . . . which would be a good thing . . .

besides, he so-o-o-o-o-o-o deserves it! . . .