US Schools v. the World: The Problem is Poverty

[Hannah Bell]

The entire basis for the national standards/testing movement is our low scores on international tests when compared to other countries. Our scores, however, are only low because we have such a high percentage of children in poverty, compared to other countries that participate in international tests. When we consider only middle-class children who attend well-funded schools, our math scores are near the top of the world (Payne and Biddle, 1999).

Here is another analysis, using reading test scores, that comes to the same conclusion. The PIRLS test was given to ten year olds in 35 countries in their own language...

Of great interest to us is the fact that American children attending low poverty schools (25% or less) outscored the top scoring country, Sweden (561). Bracey also points out that "if the students in schools with 24-49.9% poverty constituted a nation, it would rank fourth among the 35 participating nations" (p. 155).

The problem is poverty, not our teachers, our unions, the parents, or the children. The solution is to protect our children from the disadvantages of poverty...Thus far, the Arne Duncan department of education has chosen to ignore this route... and spend billions on useless national standards and national tests, focusing on measuring rather than helping.

http://www.schoolsmatter.info/

[mediaman007]

1. Its the elephant in the room!

No one wants to talk about poverty, but an examination of NCLB testing reveals a high correlation between students who qualify for Free and Reduced Lunch and low test scores.

Nothing to notice here, just move along.

Its time to get those unions out schools! We can't get rid of bad teachers because the unions are in the way. (That is a more exciting story for the media!)

[dkf]

2. Because the Chinese and Indians are better off than Americans?

Who knew?

[Hannah Bell]

3. Half of Indian children don't even *go* to school. 35% of Indians are completely illiterate,

& 50% of Indian women are.

This is the deformers model society? One that just made education free & compulsory in 2009, & only for ages 6-14?

Please do a little research before you try to be clever:


The law, passed more than 60 years after India won independence, has been hailed by children's rights campaigners and educationalists as a landmark in the country's history.

India's failure to fund universal education until now, and its focus on higher education, have been cited as factors in its low literacy rates. More than 35 per cent of Indians are illiterate, and more than 50 per cent of its female population cannot read.

Official figures record that 50 per cent of Indian children do not go to school, and that more than 50 per cent of those who do drop out before reaching class five at the age of 11 or 12.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/india/5879160/India-makes-education-compulsory-and-free-under-landmark-law.html


China only made education free in 2006. It's compulsory only to junior high.

However in China, children in poor rural areas often miss out on compulsory education due to the inability of local governments to fund public schooling and the massive income gap between eastern urban and western rural areas.

Yet 87 million people in China remain illiterate, 23 million of whom are youths and middle-aged individuals, according to the Ministry of Education's National Report on Education for All released in November 2005. About eight percent of the nation has not yet adopted the nine-year compulsory education system, and all of these areas are in the poorer and more remote western regions.

Of China's 193 million primary and high school students, 70 percent reside in rural areas.

http://bg.chineseembassy.org/eng/dtxw/t274656.htm

[JCMach1]

5. +1, exactly...

[Hannah Bell]

7. hmmm.... she hasn't responded.... gosh, i wonder why.

[dkf]

9. They took an illiterate society with an inadequate history of education and are turning out

Massive amounts of engineers and scientists while we take our history of publically funded education for all and turn out dropouts.

Who is advancing and who is falling back?

[proud2BlibKansan]

11. We turn out engineers and scientists too

And I'm willing to bet the dropout rate is higher in India and China than here.

Again. We test ALL, they test SOME.

[dkf]

14. Well we have the shortage of engineers and scientists who we then need to hire from India and China.

And we are the ones who spend more on education than they do.

[proud2BlibKansan]

15. Let's compare the cost of living in those countries to ours

before we compare the amount we spend on education.

Then let's compare the cost of a college education.

[Hannah Bell]

17. we don't "need" to hire them from india or china at all.

[tblue37]

24. We have engineers and scientists looking for work here because the

employers can get them cheaper from India and China.

[Gabi Hayes]

26. keep on parroting those BS wingnut talking points, straight out of the maw

of corporate america, whose only goal is to hire labor as lowly paid and compliant as possible

this business site, quoting all republicans (as far as I read) is filled with nuggets like this, refuting your ridiculous, undocumented assertion:

http://www.allbusiness.com/manufacturing/881544-1.html

In October 2000, through some unethical maneuvering, the House of Representatives, with only 40 members present and on a voice vote, voted to accept the "American Competitiveness in the 21st Century Act of 2000" (S-2045). Isn't it ironic that a bill whose main purpose was to import foreign workers willing to work for less money and replace American citizens in the country's best and most important jobs is called the "American Competitiveness in the Twenty-First Century Act?"

"This is not a popular bill with the public," said Rep. Tom Davis (R-Va.). "It's popular with the CEOs. This is a very important issue for the high-tech executives who give the money."

Sen. Robert Bennett (R-Utah) stated: "Once it's clear is going to get through, everybody signs up so nobody can be in the position of being accused of being against high tech. There were, in fact, a whole lot of folks against it, but because are tapping the high-tech community for campaign contributions, they don't want to admit that in public."

Rep. Dana Rohrabacher (R-Calif.) said: "This legislation is nothing more than a betrayal of American working people."

.....................

try googling this before you spout unsupportable corporate PR droppings, mmmkay?

http://www.google.com/#hl=en&q=shortage+of+engineers+in+US+2010&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=shortage+of+engineers+in+US+2010&gs_rfai=&fp=1c4bb27febfd180e

Half Sigma: No shortage of U.S. engineers
Sep 8, 2010 ... This is from a year-old article from Business Week: US colleges and universities are graduating as many scientists and engineers as ever, ...
www.halfsigma.com/2010/09/no-shortage-of-us-engineers.html - Cached

The shortage of engineers: Up or out | The Economist
The shortage of engineers. Up or out. Sep 1st 2010, 17:55 by Schumpeter ... that there is both a shortage and a surplus of engineers in the United States. ...
www.economist.com/blogs/.../2010/09/shortage_engineers - Cached

Study: No Shortage of U.S. Engineers - BusinessWeek
Oct 28, 2009 ... Study: No Shortage of U.S. Engineers ... Twenty Tips for First-Time Managers · 2010 Finalists: America's Best Young Entrepreneurs ...
www.businessweek.com/.../db20091027_723059.htm - Cached - Similar

About that "shortage" of engineers. | The Economic Populist
Oct 28, 2009 ... Submitted by Anonymous Drive-by (not verified) on Fri, 07/02/2010 - 12:09. Shortage of engineers? Don't make me laugh. Nonsense. US ...
www.economicpopulist.org/.../about-shortage-engineers - Cached - Similar

CARPE DIEM: What Shortage? Engineering Degrees and Graduate School ...
May 22, 2010 ... At 5/22/2010 10:56 AM, Anonymous frank said... "There's a critical shortage of scientists and engineers in the United States, right? ...
mjperry.blogspot.com/2010/.../what-shortage-engineering-degrees-and.html - Cached

Study: There Is No Shortage of U.S. Engineers
Apr 5, 2007 ... A new study argues that the offshoring of U.S. jobs is caused by cost savings and not a shortage of U.S. engineers or better education in ...
www.physorg.com/news94979949.html - Cached - Similar

Airbus taps India to plug engineer shortage - Top Stories ...
Go to top stories www.etravelblackboard.us. The Americas ... Airbus taps India to plug engineer shortage. Thursday, 7 October 2010 ...
www.etravelblackboard.us/showarticle.asp?id=97036 - Cached

Study: There Is No Shortage of U.S. Engineers - IT Management from ...
Apr 4, 2007 ... "Respondents said the advantages of hiring U.S. engineers were strong ... 5: Tech Worker Shortage, H-1B System Challenged (2010-01-07) ...
www.eweek.com/.../Cached - Similar

Positions of Power - January 2010 Issue
Is there a shortage of engineers in the United States? Or is there a shortage of engineering positions instead? The answer depends on whom you ask—and on ...
memagazine.asme.org › Articles › 2010 › January 2010 Issue - Cached - Similar

Are there too few engineers? Enough of the shortage shouting ...
The agency claimed it never said there was a "shortage" of engineers. ... In order to "prove" that there was a shortage, many U.S.-based multinationals ...
www.allbusiness.com/manufacturing/881544-1.html - Cached - Similar

................

the best a reasonable person can posit, after surveying links like the above, in whatever form one chooses to investigate, is that, while there may be certain types of engineering slots going unfilled, the so-called shortage is simply a big, huge LIE being repeated over and over and over, until credulous dupes believe it's the truth.

sort of like the trope about unions being the bottleneck in educational reform, or, as Geoffrey Canada laughingly spewed in England, that TEACHERS ALONE are responsible for a child's learning

you keep going with stuff like that. it's funny, funny stuff

[Hannah Bell]

16. They're turning out "massive amounts of engineers" (sic) because their

populations are massive. They can do that just by giving an expensive education to the children of the party apparatus & the new bourgeosie. Who are heavily represented in those terrible US public universities, btw.

India's population is 4 times bigger than the US's, China's is 5 times bigger. About one in 5 people in the world are chinese.

Both India & China have always turned out a lot of well-educated people -- the old british civil service machinery in india was run by well-educated indians. But the good education was limited to a fraction of their populations, & still is.

[dsc]

21. I would be willing to bet that the percentage of engineers and scientists

we graduate is far more than the percentage in those country. They have more people so their much small percenatage translates to higher numbers.

[dsc]

22. I would be willing to bet that the percentage of engineers and scientists

we graduate is far more than the percentage in those countries. They have more people so their much small percenatage translates to higher numbers.

[dsc]

23. I would be willing to bet that the percentage of engineers and scientists

we graduate is far more than the percentage in those countries. They have more people so their much small percenatage translates to higher numbers.

[proud2BlibKansan]

10. The Chinese and Indians don't test all their kids. We do.

If we selected which kids to test our scores would be very high.

Teachers here on DU have been trying to tell DU that for several years now.

[xchrom]

4. recommend

[JCMach1]

6. We have two systems in American separate and unequal, mainly based on

Poverty now instead of SOLELY on race...

[proud2BlibKansan]

12. Bingo

I wish I had a nickel for every time I have said this in the last 30 years.

[leftstreet]

19. +1

[creon]

8. Yes

Poverty is the principle root cause.

Affluent school districts do get good test scores; much better than poor school districts.
No one wants to deal with poverty, so the factor is ignored.

[Starry Messenger]

13. k & r

[TBF]

18. Recommended nt

[felix_numinous]

20. K+R

[Kang Colby]

25. Amen.

Until the government guarantees every American a livable wage (>50K), there will be no progress.