The reason why Biden's comments are so bad.

[ddbaj]

The passive implication that past candidates have been "unclean" would have been at best a minor gaffee. But for african americans that term has a special and horrible meaning. Story...

One of my two best friends is an African American, he grew up in Ohio. He used to get beaten up daily, stuffed into trash cans and thrown down hills. As he was beaten, kids would yell "CLEAN YOUR SKIN! IT'S COVERED IN SHIT! YOU NEED TO SHOWER! CLEAN YOURSELF!" and such things... the point was to imply that his skin color was inherently dirty. That black is dirty, white is clean.

So to a lot of you the comments may seem like not such a big deal, but being called unclean has a very deep meaning to many people in the african american community. I myself am hispanic and I can understand what it's like to have darker and thus "dirtier" skin.

That is all, hope you think about this before posting.

[Beaverhausen]

1. "Clean"

You assume much.

He most likely meant that Obama doesn't have the baggage- past questionable business dealings or personal indescretions - that other candidates have had.

[ddbaj]

2. That would be valid if it wasn't about an African American.

Would the n-word be allowed? Unclean, to african americans, is about as bad. Only not so well known.

[cynatnite]

6. That sounds weird...

You can say a white guy is clean and it's okay, but if you say it in regards to a black man, it's bad? :shrug:

Doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me, but I'm naive on a lot of things, too.

[ddbaj]

10. He implied other blacks were unclean.

He may have meant something else, but to call a black person unclean, which he did by implication, is an awful racial slur, on par with certain words I can't use on this board and would never use even if allowed.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

No, He Did Not Call Him Unclean By Implication. That Is Flat Out Wrong.

He also didn't in any way imply other blacks were unclean, either.

This is absolutely pathetic. :eyes:

[Bluerthanblue]

21. no it is NOT pathetic-

One of my children is African American- this isn't an unusual slur-
And it is something I personally take offense at.

Mr. Biden may not have meant to insult- but he did- That is a fact.

I would not discount him because of this one remark. But I won't lie and say I didn't find his remarks rude.

[cynatnite]

15. I honestly didn't read that into his remarks...

I thought he meant clean as in not having a bad history. I read the remarks before they became an issue and didn't think anything more about them. For the record, I'm a white chick so that probably has a lot to do with why I didn't see anything to take issue with.

[Beaverhausen]

18. so, if I call a white woman "smart" that implies that all others are stupid?

Just trying to get your logic here.

[ddbaj]

22. If I say you're the first one who is smart.

Then of course. First means first, so those before you are not smart.

[Beaverhausen]

27. Biden said he was the "first mainstream african american..."

Not just the first african american running.

Look- I do understand how it sounds to you, but I honestly don't think that is how he meant it.

IMHO, Obama is the first african american who seems to have a good chance of winning the presidency, or at least the nomination. That isn't something to be taken lightly. He will be held up to a very high standard (as will Hillary or any other woman) and I think Biden was saying Obama has all the right stuff, that there are no negatives for him.

[Bluerthanblue]

23. yes, if that was

mentioned as something noteworthy.

Mr.Biden put these characteristics out there as being something unusual- not the norm.

[Beaverhausen]

7. Joe Biden isn't black - maybe he didn't realize that the word would be offensive

Do you think he should have known that?

Can you not entertain the thought that he used the word in the context I suggested?

and of course the N-word wouldn't be allowed. that is ridiculous.

[Zensea]

17. I'd think of a better defense if I were you

Hypothetically maybe he didn't know the possible connotation, but I really think it is unlikely that he wouldn't know it.
The phrase "dirty n--" is pretty much part of the vernacular.
I doubt that there are many people alive who haven't heard it at some point.

Personally, I think Biden just misspoke and probably did mean something different than the way it initially sounds and that it will probably blow over; but I do think he should have chosen his words better and thought about what they might mean a little bit more carefully.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

11. Hey, Buddy, Quick Fact For Ya: Biden Never Said Unclean.

Twisting it to imply he did is disgraceful.

[ddbaj]

12. By implication.

If it must be noted that Obama is clean, then others must be unclean.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

14. Nope. Sorry Bub. And No More Food For You.

:hi:

[ddbaj]

24. So you support senator Biden?

He said Obama is the first black candidate to be "clean". This means, he called at least one black person unclean, right?

[Bluerthanblue]

26. sorry, but you are wrong- and

unless you are African American, you cannot speak to the validity of how a black person might very well respond to this.

His use of the word clean came after stumbling saying "and, and..clean" which made the adjective stand out-

Mr. Biden apologized for the offense. I respect him for that.
Maybe you could let him have the last word- his apology does far more to rectify this than your calling peoples responses 'pathetic'.

I believe you mean well- but you are making this worse in my view.

peace,
blu

[Parche]

20. african american?

That is one term that I can never understand

They are all Americans, who just happen to be black

Not African americans................

[Zensea]

28. the term came into being as a self-identifier among other reasons

to counteract the connotations of black and white -- (evil and good)
to identify with ancestral and cultural heritage instead of the color of one's skin which in most cases isn't actually black anyway, we are all actually different shades of brown, even the "whites."

If you don't understand it's probably because you haven't researched it particularly (or that's my guess), there is plenty of literature about it, also plenty about how the term black came into usage replacing the terms negro and colored (we are all actually colored also, just different shades).

[Parche]

30. term

It just comes across as not being Americans...........

I have friends who are black, but I dont call them my african american friends or my
black friends, I call them "My friends"

[Zensea]

32. I don't call my white friends white friends either -- so what?

And I am "white" also.
I think you're missing the point actually.
---
If American is in the term, how does it come across as not being American? That's just obtuseness on your part.

[Parche]

33. term

Because they add the term 'African' to American

Like calling you 'Zensea American'??

[Zensea]

36. So is a Native American saying they are not an American?

because they add native?

Calling me Zensea American would not make it sound like I was any less of an American, at least not to my ears.

[fishwax]

37. African American doesn't sound like it indicates an American?

I don't get it. It specifically says American. :shrug:

[Zensea]

4. It doesn't matter what he meant

What matters is how it is perceived.
That's the reason for choosing one's words carefully.

[katsy]

3. Thank you for sharing that story.

k/r

[Pithlet]

5. Deaf ears.

But that was a very good post.

[AspenRose]

13. Exactly.

"Deaf ears."

I swear, I have given up hope on this place regarding most all matters involving race....especially with regards to blacks.

:banghead:

Yes, thanks for sharing.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

8. I Think It's Pathetic That Some Actually Think Clean Meant Hygiene.

I'm beyond perplexed at how some can truly think that. Beyond perplexed.

[ddbaj]

16. Again, it's the word.

If I said Obama is the first african american to run for president who isn't a *N-word* but by that I mean who isn't left-handed, it doesn't make me less of a racist asshole.

Regardless of what he meant, he called past candidates unclean, which is sick.

[Zenlitened]

19. Well, sometimes words have a sort of sub-text or implication to some readers/listeners....

... that may not be immediately apparent to others.

One person may think of it as a perfectly innocent word, but another may have a cultural or historical perspective that brings up troubling associations with that very same word.

So while they know perfectly well the literal meaning or usage of the word, they also know how it's been mis-used in the past or in other settings.

It's a tricky issue, one that often trips people up when they least expect it, or when we least expect it from them.

[CTyankee]

35. Sorry to say, but I can. I grew up in segregated Texas and I can tell you

that "dirty" and black were pretty much used in tandem.

I know you don't want to hear this, but it is true. I am not trying to insult you. I know you believe that Biden said an innocent remark and perhaps that is so. I don't have bad feelings toward him. But the word "clean" just doesn't sit well with me. My southern race "radar" just pricked up its ears when I heard it.

I wish to hell that this were not so. But my experience tells me differently. MOre than anything about this whole thing, I am sorry about it. Shouldn't have happened.

[Joey Liberal]

9. The right wingers at work were already bringing this up n/t

[Igel]

25. Ah, so that's what a poster on another thread meant

when he said 'clean' had a special meaning.

Silly me. I once described an African-American roomie as 'clean'. He was very neat and took good care of his stuff.

Who knew what I *really* meant by it? After all, I certainly didn't know I meant that.

Perhaps Biden didn't know what he really understood the word to mean, and somebody should tell him what he meant. After all, how's a person to know what he means if his superior's not there to tell him. I know I make it a practice of never actually knowing how I intend something to be taken.

Do you know what *you* really mean? Silly question. How could you? You're just the writer of the words, and it's the reader that decides what you *really* intended.


Now, is it clear how absurd this kind of discourse is? In this case the offense is that Biden didn't know how others would take a word, a reasonable mistake; but the others are convinced that everybody has the same knowledge that they do, an unreasonable mistake. To show that Biden's comments were that of a racist, it's not enough to show that somebody understood his words to be racist--they have to show that he *intended* the word to have that meaning, or that he's such a racist that the word plausibly has that meaning coming out of his mouth.

That hasn't been proven; what's been proven is the lack of good will on the part of many listeners.

BTW, if somebody called me 'unclean', I think my response would be that I haven't touched a dead body since sundown last night, nor eaten pig or shellfish.

[MoonRiver]

29. When I was a kid in the south (now long gone),

my two brothers and I had a black maid/nanny. Some horrid kids in our neighborhood used to insult her, saying among other things, that she "smelled." They did this when she could clearly hear what they said. I got in more than a few fights defending her, and she btw, smelled very nice. Still makes me mad remembering.
:mad:

[paulk]

31. well, I've thought about it before posting, like you asked

and I've decided that your thread is the most ridiculous one I've seen today regarding this whole Obama/Biden thing.

[moondust]

34. Biden's own explanation.

"My mother has an expression 'clean as a whistle, sharp as a tack,'"

http://www.abcnews.go.com/Politics/story?id=2838420&page=1


I don't think Biden was making a comparative statement but rather simply pointing out a couple of Obama's most impressive assets as a Presidential candidate.