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Florida teachers fearful GOP will push bill that kills tenure, says advanced degrees don't count.

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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-09-10 12:44 AM
Original message
Florida teachers fearful GOP will push bill that kills tenure, says advanced degrees don't count.
It was a terribly scary bill, one so bad that teachers would not come to Florida to teach...and would not be attracted to the profession in this state at all.

Governor Crist vetoed it, Governor-elect Rick Scott says he will not veto it. And the legislature is totally in Republican hands. They have veto-proof majorities in both houses.

Teachers growing anxious about likely new tenure bill

In the wake of last week's election results, teachers across Florida are growing anxious that nothing can stop another version of Senate Bill 6, the controversial tenure reform measure that passed the Republican-dominated Legislature in the spring but was dramatically vetoed by Gov. Charlie Crist.

..."In the aftermath, "everybody's riding a wave of emotion," said Joe Vitalo, president of the Hernando County teachers union. "Right now, we're on a surfboard and headed right for the seawall. I'm hoping there's a lifeguard."

To date, nobody has filed a new bill that echoes SB 6.

But Patricia Levesque, executive director of Jeb Bush's Foundation for Florida's Future, has been circulating a draft of teacher quality legislation that, like SB 6, includes changes to teacher salary schedules and professional contracts.


Scott's office has indicated he will oppose any tenure for teachers.

Asked for Scott's thoughts on another SB 6, Scott spokesman Brian Burgess pointed to the education plan that's posted on the campaign site. Among other things, it says, "Rick supports eliminating teacher tenure for new teachers."


It really was a rotten bill, and it would have been so damaging to teachers. It would take away any job security, and it would make advanced degrees mean nothing in determining salary.

FL bill forbids teachers from earning salary based on advanced degrees or credentials.

Senate Bill 6 subjects teachers to firing without cause at the end of each school year. Principals will be able to fire teachers at will. If a teacher disagrees with a principal on anything -- anything at all -- that teacher can be terminated, even if her students are successful based on test scores.

Graduate degrees will have no value. Senate Bill 6 forbids teachers from earning salary based on advanced degrees or credentials. The very professionals who are to encourage, mentor and develop students to be college-ready are now told that their education credentials are worth nothing. Is that the message we want to send to our children whom we want to see go on to college?


Crist vetoed the bill, but that won't happen under Scott.

Here is even more of the idiocy in that bill.

Here are some of the more controversial elements:

•School districts are required to base 50% of teacher's pay each year on student gains on standardized tests. But there is no special provision made for teachers with disadvantaged students, which means there is no consideration given to the large number of factors affecting student performance over which a teacher has no control (home environment, for example, which effects everything from reading ability to whether they went to bed on time and had a decent breakfast before test day). The bill also doesn't address the fact that the lowest-performing students also tend to be the most transient -- the makeup of a teacher's classroom can change as much as 80% in the course of a year. How do you decide which kids' scores affect which teacher's paycheck with that kind of turnover?

•School districts will no longer be allowed to consider teaching experience or advanced degrees in determining salary. In fact, they will face financial penalties imposed by the state if they choose to do so. If the goal is to increase teacher quality, why remove incentives for teachers to seek graduate education? And why remove incentives for experienced teachers to remain in the public schools? Critics suggest that these measures punish all teachers, especially the best, rather than just ineffective ones.


It's an unintelligent, punitive bill made up by small minds. Unfortunately it sticks pretty close to the goals of this administration. Would Arne want things carried so far? It would be hard to say.

But he set the climate for this with his attitude toward the profession of teaching.

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dkf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-09-10 01:19 AM
Response to Original message
1. I don't get refusing to pay extra for graduate degrees.
How odd.
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no_hypocrisy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-09-10 06:38 AM
Response to Reply #1
10. It's not so much (figuratively) for hiring purposes.
School districts routinely don't choose a candidate with an advanced degree when hiring because it costs more. But they have no choice but to pay more when they hire someone with just a bachelors and that teacher gets tenure and then gets an advanced degree. Then the salary of that same teacher costs more due to the degree. And that extra salary is calculated into that teacher's pension upon retirement.

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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-09-10 02:11 PM
Response to Reply #1
31. It makes perfect sense
When you plan to hire untrained TFA recruits advanced degrees are not necessary.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-09-10 01:24 AM
Response to Original message
2. "ominous feeling"
"Bullard, a high school teacher, said fellow teachers started hitting him with questions about SB 6 as soon as he walked into school Wednesday morning. "No one is stepping to the forefront to calm your fears," he said. "It definitely puts an ominous feeling into the school year."

I have talked to many who are just sick inside.
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TwentyFive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-09-10 03:13 PM
Response to Reply #2
39. No way! Sorry... Republicans DON'T want to hurt teachers.
They want to burn them at the stake! Teachers do nothing but turn these kids into potential trouble makers...with a free will and thinking mind. Too dangerous!

Besides, republicans have a better idea...use the public schools for child labor camps. Convert the auditoriums into child church camps for evangelical Christian education. Children will develop an excellent work ethic and a proper moral compass too. Crime, education, economy, moral decline, homosexuality and abortion will be solved. Of course, the wealthy can opt out and send their kids to private schools. After all, what's the point of training all these drones...if nobody is around to take advantage of them as adults?




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MedicalAdmin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-11-10 10:12 AM
Response to Reply #39
50. Coming soon to a school near you.
Here's the new overall curiculum model - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6RNfL6IVWCE

And here's the english curriculum - forget instruction - look how fast kids pick up a new language using this new method - check out 5:17 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zqNLMuijRyU

You DO NOT need an advanced degree to teach - not with this as your curriculum. It's so easy even an idiot could do it.

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strategery blunder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-09-10 01:32 AM
Response to Original message
3. I'm glad I don't live in Florida, and I'm glad I didn't go into teaching.
This is spreading. NCLB, watching Arne Duncan in Chicago...it was enough for me to abort my plans to become a teacher during my sophomore year of college. It seems politicians are hellbent on vindicating my decision. :(
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-09-10 01:36 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. I considered it oh five years ago
No child was enough. If I do it will be in junior college, and this country will pay for this in ways politicos don't get, and I don't give a fuck 'bout party no more either...empire collapse is always damn painful.
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FLyellowdog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-09-10 02:01 AM
Response to Original message
5. I'm so glad my 25 years of teaching is over in that state.
I suggest any teacher considering moving there give serious thought to staying away.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-09-10 02:17 AM
Response to Reply #5
6. Glad I retired, but sorry for what others are going through now.
So upsetting.
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lark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-09-10 02:23 PM
Response to Reply #6
34. My poor daughter can't sleep at night
wondering if she should change her major, give up her dream, or try to soldier on, hoping the pendulum will swing back to sanity. Of course, if she changes her major, she won't graduate next year as planned, will need more classes to cover any change she makes and that means more money from our pockets.

It just plan sux.
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MedicalAdmin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-11-10 10:20 AM
Response to Reply #34
51. Have here take her degree and move overseas or to Canada or...
Maybe New Zealand. She could try the JET program. And DoD schools are still good (and funded). And don't forget the Unicef.

There are many places that have respect for teachers. They just aren't here.
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chervilant Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-09-10 04:53 PM
Response to Reply #6
43. OMG!!!
This will likely spread across the nation! How possibly can Obama support this assault on teachers and public education?!?

The more fearful and resentful people get, the more they cling to their religious mythologies and the more they reject any formal knowledge!! Why must we take three steps back for every one step forward?!? (Richard Hofstadter brilliantly covers this anti-intellectualism in his essay, "The Paranoid Style in American Politics.")

What gets me is that many of us will continue to fight this indefensible assault on teachers and public education, because we LOVE our children, and we want them to have the academic skills they will need to compete in a global market. And, I think Obama and Duncan are counting on that, OR they plan to use this concept to guilt exceptional teachers and compel them to accept positions with no tenure and tenuous pay. Either way, both these men have lost every shred of respect I might have had for the reform du jour of public education.

Sad, really, to watch the exponential decline of our citizenry...
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Starry Messenger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-09-10 05:44 AM
Response to Original message
7. k & r
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BzaDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-09-10 06:08 AM
Response to Original message
8. Is it half of their total salary based on merit pay, or half of the raise each year?
In other words, if someone doesn't do well according to some metric based on standardized tests, can their salary be cut in half? Or is it just their raise that can be cut in half? The article makes it sound like the former, but I've never heard anything like that.

I'm not totally opposed to the idea of some component of pay being merit-based (depending on how performance is judged and what circumstantial factors are controlled for), though I definitely understand the arguments against it.

But this bill should be thrown in the trash tomorrow (regardless of the answer to the above question). What a joke.
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Orlandodem Donating Member (859 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-09-10 06:20 AM
Response to Original message
9. Obama empowered the Republicans with his RTTT program.
Regarding this bill, wouldn't this violate collective bargaining laws? Any labor attorney care to chime in?
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madrchsod Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-09-10 02:23 PM
Response to Reply #9
33. collective bargaining? ya right
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MedicalAdmin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-11-10 10:23 AM
Response to Reply #33
52. Collective bargaining hasn't existed national since Raygun.
When the alheimers president fired all the air traffic controllers and banned all of them from federal service for life. And he got away with it.

Also, there is no collective bargaining in ANY "right to work' (i.e. right to be fired at any time for any reason). Not really.
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WinkyDink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-09-10 07:03 AM
Response to Original message
11. IOW, to sum up: Pre-NEA days.
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DonCoquixote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-09-10 07:44 AM
Response to Original message
12. Keep in mind
Florida is a state that really has no respect for education, period. Half the state thinks that they can go back to the days of Dixie, when all you needed in life was a job on a farm and a church to go to. The other half are northerners who pull the "My kids already went to school up North" BS. The Colleges are glorified Football training camps. My old school used to be good, until they caught the Football bug and decided to trash half their liberal arts program (bye Bye Humanities). My point is that as bad as things are nationally, Florida in general hates schools, period. he idea that they consider graduate degrees worthless is no surprise: the only ones that get respect are from Lawyers, and even then, Lawyers are not expected to be intellectual heavyweights, but good old boys who can sell people's lives over Beer, Cigars, and Hooters girls.
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Dappleganger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-09-10 11:32 AM
Response to Reply #12
19. There are a few (very few) pockets of sunshine...
we just happen to live in one, thankfully.
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JCMach1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-09-10 07:47 AM
Response to Original message
13. Makes me sick to look at...
Edited on Tue Nov-09-10 07:48 AM by JCMach1
it only gets worse MF
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-09-10 11:19 AM
Response to Reply #13
15. I can't believe Rick Scott will be governor.
And I am afraid of the harm this bunch of extremists will do to this state.
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JCMach1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-09-10 12:15 PM
Response to Reply #15
22. I will now admit it... it is possible to get WORSE than JEB
the damage these people have done.
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The Backlash Cometh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-09-10 09:02 AM
Response to Original message
14. I have reached the conclusion that the right likes being 48 out of 50 in education.
It secures their voter base.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-09-10 11:28 AM
Response to Reply #14
16. Indeed.
That really does seem to be true now. :-(
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kiranon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-09-10 01:14 PM
Response to Reply #14
26. They apparently want to be 50th out of 50 for public schools.
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Dappleganger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-09-10 11:30 AM
Response to Original message
17. No checks and balances in this state any longer.
I don't even see the point of fighting the Jeb machine.

:shrug:
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w8liftinglady Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-09-10 11:31 AM
Response to Original message
18. my partner has expressed the same concern here in Texas.
they have gone 4 years without a pay raise.he is a member of the TEA(afl/cio)... but they are powerless in "Right-To-Work) states.

and this describes his student population to a "T"

•School districts are required to base 50% of teacher's pay each year on student gains on standardized tests. But there is no special provision made for teachers with disadvantaged students, which means there is no consideration given to the large number of factors affecting student performance over which a teacher has no control (home environment, for example, which effects everything from reading ability to whether they went to bed on time and had a decent breakfast before test day). The bill also doesn't address the fact that the lowest-performing students also tend to be the most transient -- the makeup of a teacher's classroom can change as much as 80% in the course of a year. How do you decide which kids' scores affect which teacher's paycheck with that kind of turnover?

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AngryAmish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-09-10 11:35 AM
Response to Original message
20. Does this bill strip teachers of their union rights?
I assume most teachers in Florida are unionized. Does this mean they have no right to arbitrate grievances? In most places teachers (tenured or not) still have protection of state and federal labor laws- which protect all unionized workers from arbitrary dismissal. If this passes Florida's teachers are stripped of this right? And how can a state strip these federally recognized rights?
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-09-10 12:44 PM
Response to Reply #20
23. Actually, it might.
After all, Arne's money is going to states that do NOT water down education reforms to please the unions.

So with big money going to states that break contracts between teachers and unions....yes, it will break unions.

Not just in Florida.

Arne warns states not to "water down" education plans to please unions.

"Mr. Duncan said in an interview that he welcomed the friction between union and state officials but warned against states weakening their overhaul plans simply to win buy-ins from unions. "Watered-down proposals with lots of consensus won't win," he said. "And proposals that drive real reform will win."

SO with this administration encouraging the states not to respect teachers' unions....yes, it will strip teachers of rights.
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AngryAmish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-09-10 01:10 PM
Response to Reply #23
25. But this bill, in particular
Does it say "no arbitrations" on firing offenses?
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-09-10 01:28 PM
Response to Reply #25
27. "Principals will be able to fire teachers at will."
I don't know what else that means.

The new version of SB6 has not appeared yet. There is more in the first article.

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AngryAmish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-09-10 01:29 PM
Response to Reply #27
28. They may be able to fire at will, but they could not keep them fired.
Edited on Tue Nov-09-10 01:31 PM by AngryAmish
That is why you join an union.

on edit: If an unionized teacher is fired then the union can file a grievance. Then if the parties are unable to agree on a resolution a neutral arbitrator is selected and this arbitrator decides if the firing is kosher. If not, the teacher gets rehired with backpay.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-09-10 01:39 PM
Response to Reply #28
29. Ok.
Not going to argue. Not worth it. I just don't think you understand the full import of what is going on.

And that is your right.
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laughingliberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-09-10 11:36 AM
Response to Original message
21. K & R nt
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Orsino Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-09-10 12:54 PM
Response to Original message
24. They're not going to stop until our public schools...
...are for-profit, no-bid daycare centers.
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KamaAina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-09-10 02:07 PM
Response to Original message
30. They have veto-proof majorities in both houses?!
Edited on Tue Nov-09-10 02:30 PM by KamaAina
That's scary on so many levels besides just education. How did that happen in a state that did, after all, go for Obama? Extreme gerrymandering? :scared:
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lark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-09-10 02:17 PM
Response to Original message
32. Fucking cheating thieving bastard
I do live in Fl. My daughter is in her 3rd year of college, studying to be a teacher. Now, she will have to move out of state or face lifelong hardships. Teaching is already a low paid, very demanding job - the bill last year would have eliminated much of our ability to have any quality teachers. Any highly educated teacher will want to leave our state, go to private school where they can negotiate a better salary or just retire if they could possibly swing that. The Repugs are so sick, they are trying to destroy public education and make it so only the rich receive an education.

I'm generally a pacifist, but if someone were to run over Scott and kill him, I certainly wouldn't be sad - at all. I'm so not over his so-called election and still think he stole it.
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GreenTea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-09-10 02:30 PM
Response to Original message
35. Florida is & has been a long lost cause - Voting machines & republican SoS will keep it regressive
Edited on Tue Nov-09-10 02:33 PM by GreenTea
Forever! (FL is just like neighboring Georgia, NO different).

Too bad FL can't take a cue from progressive California -

California is Democratic!

Governor – Democrat

Lt. Governor – Democrat

Secretary of State – Democrat

Attorney General – Democrat

Controller – Democrat

Treasury – Democrat

Insurance Comm. - Democrat

US Senate – Both Democratic Senators

US Congress – Democratic majority

CA State Senate – Democratic majority

CA State Assembly – Democratic majority

CA Cities Mayors - Democratic Majority

AND two more big Democratic victories & republican losses in California - Prop 23 & Prop 25 -

Beautiful California the most populous state with the largest economy with wondrous National & State parks & wilderness areas, miles & miles of protected coastline....(And the CA clean water & air bill stays INTACT, though the tea-party backers the republican Koch Bros. & big oil corporations spent millions of dollars to pretty much get rid of CA clean water & air bill though Prop 23) The republican attempt FAILED!

The DEMS also won CA Prop 25 - Budget legislation will now pass with a simple majority, (instead of the republicans stronghold on the state which forced a 2/3 majority in the State Senate & Assembly that was needed to pass any monetary legislation). The republican attempt FAILED!!
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Riley18 Donating Member (883 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-09-10 08:00 PM
Response to Reply #35
46. Not a bad idea to move to California. I don't think I can
stand living in Florida much longer. The idea of those thieving bastards running the state is just too depressing. I am not paying for my master's degree anymore if I don't get extra pay for it anymore. The teachers here don't really stick together. Most cave in right away and run around trying to follow the "rules" no matter how ridiculous they become. I am sick of it and really would like to live in a place where I have a chance to actually enjoy life a little. What is the big deal of living near the ocean when I have to run around working odd jobs so often that I never get to the beach anyway. We have not had a step increase or raise in a few years now. The state is no longer paying for National Board Certification either. I just have to keep getting by on less and less money as it is, and now the prospect of even less money is just too much to consider.
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madrchsod Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-09-10 02:30 PM
Response to Original message
36. obama/duncan opened pandora`s box....
they will be held responsible for the outcome...
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okieinpain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-09-10 02:43 PM
Response to Original message
37. well to me it's a great thing. A little repug reality for america is a
whats needed. a lot of fools go around spouting that repug crap, get rid of this, close that, remove this. fine do it and lets see where the great america ends up.
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MedicalAdmin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-11-10 10:29 AM
Response to Reply #37
53. That would make most states look like...
... wait for it... OKLAHOMA.



Bwahahahahahaha. Just kiddin'... sort of. Good BBQ in your state tho', so you got that goin' fer ya.
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QC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-09-10 02:52 PM
Response to Original message
38. Arne and Rick are going to get along just fine. n/t
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Jakes Progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-09-10 03:21 PM
Response to Original message
40. Don't worry. We have a Democratic WH and Senate.
Oh. Never mind.
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beforeyoureyes Donating Member (289 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-09-10 03:36 PM
Response to Original message
41. Horrible for the teachers, the kids, and the future of Florida...

Surprising, no.

But, very sad.
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baldguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-09-10 03:38 PM
Response to Original message
42. It's obvious that conservative don't want to move to Somalia.
They want to re-create it here.
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Roy Rolling Donating Member (762 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-09-10 05:10 PM
Response to Original message
44. The Race to the Bottom
has now accelerated. What profession cannot consider experience or education in determining salary? Oh yeah, politics. They want teachers to be a stupid as politicians.
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activa8tr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-09-10 05:28 PM
Response to Original message
45. This is outrageous! If one thinks education is expensive, try ignorance. and...
it seems as though the Republican Party is proving that ignorance is "IN" this year.

How on earth do teachers advance and feed their growing families if they cannot earn more the more they learn?

Obviously the Florida legislature is filled with Republicans who never were teachers or were very bad teachers if ever.

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Jefferson23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-09-10 08:16 PM
Response to Original message
47. I don't know what to say, Florida may be the blueprint for the demise of public education.n/t
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knitter4democracy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-09-10 09:43 PM
Response to Original message
48. Welcome to the world of charter schools. No tenure here in MI.
Our state legislature purposely left us out of the state's teacher tenure law, even charters like where I teach that are run by area school districts and whose teachers are unionized and on the same contract as the other teachers in the district.
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MedicalAdmin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-11-10 10:33 AM
Response to Reply #48
54. With tenure goes academic freedom.
And in preemption of some college prof. / twit who posted on a previous post about academic freedom being a college thing and not necessary at the high school level (yah - I know - my jaw hit the floor too), just wait until you start getting students who were "taught" in high school without any academic freedom. You don't live in a vacuum dude.


Ahem - rant over.
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voteearlyvoteoften Donating Member (548 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-10-10 07:35 AM
Response to Original message
49. am kick
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hollowdweller Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-11-10 10:37 AM
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55.  I'm happy to see this.

I'm sure just like in any gov't workplace, there are a large % age of republican teachers who essentially voted for this.

The sooner the middle class is reminded that the GOP is not for them the better.

I'm thinking this will speed the process.

I know a lot of republican federal employees.

If the GOP is successful in cutting federal employees pay by 10% I can pretty much guarantee that will bring a LOT into our column.
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