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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-09-10 11:57 PM
Original message
Anatomy of the Most Crushing Democratic Loss in U.S. House Since 1894
Edited on Wed Nov-10-10 12:43 AM by Time for change
Going into the 2010 Midterm elections, the Democratic Party held 255 House seats, to the Republican Party’s 178 (2 seats were vacant). Following the November 2 elections, as of this writing, the Democrats hold 190 seats to the Republicans’ 239, with 6 seats pending final results. That comes to a Democratic loss of 65 seats and a Republican gain of 61 seats, pending the results of the final 6. In the end, the Democratic loss will be anywhere from 59 to 65 seats. They also lost 6 Senate seats.

Arguably, this represents the worst defeat for the Democratic Party in the U.S. House since 1894, the midterm of the second presidential administration of Grover Cleveland – a year in which the Democratic Party lost 116 House seats and 5 Senate seats, to lose control of both Houses of Congress. Here is a capsule summary of the worst Democratic Congressional losses since that time:

1894 – Lost 116 House seats; lost 5 Senate seats; lost control of both Houses of Congress
1912 – Lost 59 House seats; gained 5 Senate seats; maintained control of both Houses
1920 – Lost 59 House seats; lost 10 Senate seats; GOP maintained control of both Houses
1938 – Lost 71 House seats; lost 6 Senate seats; but maintained huge majorities in both Houses
1946 – Lost 55 House seats; lost 12 Senate seats; lost control of both Houses
1994 – Lost 54 House seats; lost 9 Senate seats; lost control of both Houses
2010 – Lost 59-65 House seats; lost 6 Senate seats; lost control of House but not Senate

So 2010 was the first time since 1894 that the Democrats lost 59 or more House seats and lost control of the House. And what makes it all the more devastating is the far right-wing extremism of so many of the incoming Republicans. Therefore it is important to understand the political dynamics of the Democratic loss.


Overview of 2010 Democratic loss of House seats

The 2010 U.S. House elections involved 171 incumbent Republicans running for re-election. 169 of them (99%) won. There were also 24 seats in which no incumbent ran. Republicans won 21 (87%) of those seats. Democratic incumbents fared far worse than Republican incumbents, losing 49 of 240 seats (20%), with another 6 (2%) still pending. Let’s consider some of the factors involved in the loss of so many seats held by Democratic incumbents.

Role of partisanship
Far and away the most important single variable in the loss of seats held by Democratic incumbents was the conservative nature of the districts in which most of the seats were lost.

The Cook Partisan Voting Index (PVI) is a measure of how the Congressional Districts voted in the last two presidential elections. Of the 240 House elections in which Democratic incumbents won, 184 represented House districts with Democratic PVIs. The Democratic incumbents didn’t fare too terribly in those districts, winning 172 (93%) and losing 10 (5%), with 2 (1%) pending. But in the 58 House districts with Republican PVIs, the Democratic incumbents lost 39 seats (67%) and won only 15 (26%), with 4 pending. In summary, given the mood of this year’s electorate, the PVI alone statistically predicted 84% of the results among Democratic House incumbents.

Therefore, what mostly happened in 2010 was that Democrats from conservative districts lost seats that they had won in 2006 and 2008 when the Democratic Party fared much better. Indeed more than half of the 54 member Blue Dog coalition was wiped out in this election.

Role of voting patterns
The National Journal ranked all but 8 of the 240 Democrats running for reelection in the House according to their tendency to vote in a liberal direction on economic, social, and foreign affairs legislation. Those rankings demonstrated virtually no statistical effect on the likelihood of those Democrats maintaining their seats. The incumbent Democrats from the more liberal districts tended to vote substantially more liberally in all three categories, whereas those from the more conservative districts tended to vote more conservatively in all three categories. So those voting patterns don’t tell us a great deal. Had those from the more liberal districts voted more conservatively than they did, or had those from the more conservative districts voted more liberally than they did, both group probably would have lost more seats.

However, their votes on the health care reform bill and Obama’s TARP plan did have some statistically significant effect – a negative effect for a “yes” vote. Actually, those who voted for that legislation were substantially more likely to hold on to their seats. But that’s just because those who voted for them were mainly from the more liberal districts. It was the Democrats from the conservative districts whose seats were in great jeopardy, and for those Democrats a vote for Obama’s health care bill, and to a lesser extent his TARP plan, increased their likelihood of losing their seat. Evaluation of the health care vote in addition to the TARP vote and the PVI increased the statistical power to predict the election results from 84% to 88%. None of the other voting patterns noted above significantly added predictive power.


What the exit polls tell us

Much of the exit poll data tells us what we already knew. Voters who were most likely to vote Democratic were young, poor, women, black or Latino, members of labor unions, liberal, not very religious, and were either the least educated of the electorate (high school dropouts) or the most educated (graduate school degrees). But some of the polling data was much more interesting:

The Obama factor
The exit polls show that voters who disapprove of Obama’s handling his job as president outnumbered those who approve by 54% to 45%, and that those who strongly disapprove outnumber those who strongly approve by 40% to 23%. More important, the 40% who strongly disapproved voted for the Republican House candidate by a whopping margin of 92% to 6%.

Furthermore, 37% of respondents specifically indicated that their vote was meant to express opposition to Obama (compared to 24% whose vote was meant to express support for Obama). Those voters voted Republican for their House candidate by a margin of 93% to 5%.

Opinion of the Republican Party
Responses to voter opinion of the Republican Party were especially interesting. Only 42% said that they had a favorable view of the Republican Party, compared to 52% who said that they had an unfavorable view of the Republican Party. Those responses were very similar to an analogous question regarding the Democratic Party – 43% of respondents said they had a favorable view of the Democratic Party.

One might think that the fact that the opinions of voters of the two parties were almost identical would have foretold a very close election for the House, rather than the huge Republican victory that unfolded. But those who held an unfavorable view of the Republican Party nevertheless voted for Republicans 23% of the time (compared to 10% of those who held an unfavorable view of Democrats voting for Democrats). Why would 23% of voters who held an unfavorable view of Republicans nevertheless vote for Republicans? A powerful clue to the answer to that question comes from responses to the questions about the economy.

Concern about the economy
Half of all respondents said that they were very worried about economic conditions (and another 36% were somewhat worried). Those voters voted overwhelmingly for Republicans – 70% to 28%. That finding should not be too surprising. Economic conditions have been very poor in our country for the last couple of years, and it makes sense that Democrats would be blamed for that, given that they have controlled both the presidency and Congress for nearly the past two years.

But it appears that voters did not blame the Democrats for the economy as much as the above considerations would lead one to think. In answer to the question “Who do you blame for economic problems”, only 23% blamed Obama, while 29% blamed Bush. But the most interesting responses involved Wall Street, which was blamed for our economic problems by 35% of respondents (Either Congress was not addressed in this poll question, or responses involving Congress were not included in this particular report).

Most important, voters who blamed Wall Street for our economic problems voted Republican by a margin of 56% to 42% – and this group made all the difference in the final election results. Some might think that this result is surprising, since the Republican Party has long been much more Wall Street friendly than the Democratic Party. However, over the last couple of years and beyond, the Democratic Party – both its president and its Congresspersons – has done a very poor job of differentiating itself from the interests of Wall Street. That’s the way that I see it (more on that below), and that’s the way that most voters saw it too. In other words, on an issue that pretty much decided the election, the Democratic Party failed to side with the bulk of the American people over the financial elites who provide a good deal of funding for many of their campaigns – and they apparently paid the price for it. It must be said that neither did the Republican Party side with the American people on economic issues. But the Democrats were in control of both Congress and the presidency, and so they were blamed for it.


A few words about voter suppression

One thing you never see mentioned in election polling articles is voter suppression – even though it is a major factor in many national elections in the United States these days, and probably accounted for George W. Bush’s election “victories” in both 2000 and 2004.

Information on what kinds of voters actually turn out to vote comes from exit polling. So when pollsters make assumptions about registered Democrats being less likely to vote than Republicans, they base those assumptions largely on exit poll data. But with intensive voter suppression activities, many voters who come out to vote, or who attempt to vote, don’t actually vote and aren’t included in the exit polls either.

All types of dirty tricks are used to prevent minorities, the poor, and Democrats in general from voting. Massive organized efforts are made to “challenge” voters in Democratic polling places, thereby slowing down the voting process, causing long voting lines, and causing many voters to leave, either because of time constraints or because of the intimidation itself. In many poor neighborhoods, flyers are passed out with incorrect information on voting times and places, or with threats of imprisonment in order to scare voters away from the polls. This year “Tea Party Patriots” put out an ad that put a $500 bounty on “fraudulent voters”. And they also have used fraudulent computer programs to make voters ineligible to vote, as they did to tens of thousands of Florida voters in 2000 and hundreds of thousands of Ohio voters in 2004.

The vast majority of voter suppression is conducted by Republicans, targeting Democratic voters. And they did it again this year, with Tea Party zealots playing a major role, as demonstrated in this expose written just before the election:

Numerous reports have documented how state GOP chapters, local Tea Party groups and organizations like Americans for Prosperity are mobilizing across the country – holding training sessions and posting instructional videos on their websites about how to challenge suspicious voters. But the right's concern about widespread voter fraud has virtually no basis in empirical reality; a 2007 study by the Brennan Center for Justice found that "an American is more likely to get struck by lightning than impersonate another voter at the polls."

Thus it is that massive organized efforts by thugs to repress voting end up getting interpreted by pollsters as lack of interest in voting by poor and minority Democratic voters.


The bottom line – Connecting the dots to explain the Republican tsunami of 2010

Robert Kuttner, in his book “A Presidency in Peril – The Inside Story of Obama’s Promise, Wall Street’s Power, and the Struggle to Control our Economic Future”, explains the current political problems of the Democratic Party as well as anyone I’ve read – in a chapter titled “Political Malpractice”. The book was published well before the 2010 election:

Opportunity lost
Kuttner discusses how, following the 2006 and 2008 elections, the Democratic Party seemed to be in a great position to oversee a long-standing, if not permanent realignment of major party loyalties in the United States:

The events of 2008 portended a durable partisan realignment (in favor of the Democratic Party), comparable to the Roosevelt realignment of 1932… The political cycle built on conservative social, racial and cultural backlash, which had energized the Nixon, Reagan, and Bush coalitions, was winding down. It was giving way to an economic backlash that played to the natural strength of Democrats… Voters were steadily becoming more tolerant… Gay baiting was no longer a recipe for Republican success. Younger voters were increasingly tolerant of racial diversity, as Obama’s own election underscored….. Young voters were increasingly inclined to support Democrats… Blacks, Hispanics, and other immigrant groups leaned to the Democrats, and their share of the population was increasing, too. Better-educated and professional people tended to vote Democratic… Women voted Democratic by large majorities… More of today’s voters believe it is the responsibility of government to take care of those who can’t take care of themselves… If the Democrats needed one more gift, the unpopularity of the Bush administration, combined with the open disarray of the Republican Party in 2008 and early 2009, surely provided it. Sarah Palin… was an embarrassment to a majority of Americans. Meanwhile, the party of family values was the party of one tawdry sex scandal after another…

So what happened?

Siding with Republicans and the financial elite against the American people
Throughout much of his book, Kuttner discusses how Obama’s policies have favored the financial elite over the vast majority of Americans. He notes how Obama’s solution to the home foreclosure crisis was a program called “Making Home Affordable”, and he comments on that program, comparing it with the Obama administration’s TARP program (the Wall Street bailout).

Several trillions in loans and loan guarantees for the banks, and a grudging $3 billion for the homeowners who had been the banks’ victims (resulting from Obama’s program). As a consequence of the administration’s half measures and failure to move boldly, the mortgage foreclosure crisis is continuing to drive millions of Americans from their homes, depress housing prices… and retard the recovery… Refinancing underwater retail mortgages is comparatively easy. It just requires political will.

Sometimes it’s difficult to discern the difference between siding with financial elites at the expense of the American people vs. simply trying to conciliate Republicans. Obama’s emphasis during his 2010 State of the Union message appeared to be a combination of both, as Obama indicated that deficit reduction would be a priority over stimulation of a stagnant economy. Kuttner comments on that:

The proposal put a damper on Obama’s capacity to deliver new anti-recession spending. With unemployment still rising, the president was plainly signaling that deficit reduction now came first… The freeze was a feeble sop to deficit hawks…

Nobel Prize-winning economist Paul Krugman’s response was even more scathing in its criticism:

A spending freeze? That’s the brilliant response of the Obama team… It’s appalling on every level. It’s bad economics, depressing demand when the economy is still suffering from mass unemployment… It’s bad long-run fiscal policy… And it’s a betrayal of everything Obama’s supporters thought they were working for. Just like that, Obama has embraced and validated the Republican world-view… A correspondent writes, “I feel like an idiot for supporting this guy.”

And then there was the infamous “Cat food Commission”, about which Kuttner explains:

To further appease deficit hawks, Obama appointed a deficit-reduction commission – an idea that the Senate had just voted down. The commission was designed by its advocates to bypass usual legislative procedures and compel an up-or-down vote on a deficit reduction package widely expected to slash Social security and Medicare spending. This is, of course, appalling politics. It signals: We had to spend a ton of taxpayer money to rescue the banks and prop up the ruined economy. Now, though you have paid once through the reduced value of your retirement plan and your house, you will pay again through cuts in Medicare and Social Security.

The health care “reform” fiasco
I’ve criticized in great deal Obama’s so-called health care reform, especially with regard to his decision to omit the public option which he had promised during his campaign. Kuttner’s take on this issue is very similar, and he expounds on how Obama’s handling of health care “reform” affected him and his party politically:

Cutting a deal with the insurance and drug companies, not exactly candidates to win popularity contests, associated Obama with profoundly resented interest groups. This was exactly the wrong framing. This battle should have been the president and the people versus the interests. Instead more and more voters concluded that it was the president and the interests versus the people… The interest-group strategy made it impossible to put on the table more fundamental and popular reforms, such as using federal bargaining power to negotiate cheaper drug prices, or having a true public option like Medicare for all. Instead, by embracing a deal that required the government to come up with a trillion dollars of subsidy for the insurance industry, Obama was forced to pursue policies that were justifiably unpopular – such as taxing premiums of people with decent insurance, or compelling people to buy policies that they often couldn’t afford, or diverting money from Medicare…

The bill helped about two-thirds of America’s uninsured, but it did almost nothing for the 85% of Americans with insurance that is becoming more costly and unreliable by the day – except frighten them into believing that what little they have is at increased risk of being taken away

A few words about FDR as a means of comparison
I believe that a comparison of Obama’s approach with that of FDR is highly instructive. Both were faced with what are likely the two greatest financial crises of our nation’s history. There are basically two ways to respond to a crisis or to politically prepare for the next election. One is to fight for legislation and policies that will benefit the vast majority of people. The other is to approach it mainly from a political perspective, acceding to the wishes of powerful elites who have the ability and desire to fund your campaigns, or to fight you if you turn against them. Kuttner explains:

Unlike Obama, Roosevelt was not afraid to take on Republicans for fear of being called a partisan. Nor was he reluctant to take on Wall Street for fear of being called radical. Roosevelt was not intimidated by claims that drastic reforms would “unsettle” financial markets, which were already unsettled to the point of collapse. The point of the New Deal was not to appease money markets, but to remake them – which Roosevelt did. The strategy was not to conciliate the Republican Party, but to outvote it. Virtually all of Roosevelt’s major reforms were enacted over the strenuous opposition of both Wall Street and Republicans in Congress. But it didn’t matter, because the reforms served the people and the goal of a broad recovery. Roosevelt didn’t aspire to consensus at all costs but to help people, and that proved astute politics. Despite the hysterical opposition from the Republican Party and Wall Street, the people reciprocated. In his reelection campaign, Roosevelt carried forty-six (of 48) states.

During that campaign, Roosevelt brilliantly framed the battle as one of the people versus the selfish special interests. He could do this with credibility because his policies were bold enough to yield concrete benefits in people’s lives… Far-right movements trying to rally desperate people kept bumping into folks who loved Roosevelt, because Roosevelt had tangibly improved their lives. Socially conservative citizens who did not think much of Roosevelt’s relatively liberal views on race… nonetheless supported him in droves…

In conclusion
Kuttner explains that when there are no leftist/liberal/progressive forces to address peoples’ problems…

the right fills the gap. It doesn’t matter that their diagnoses make no sense or that their remedies fail. Anxious and frightened people seek scapegoats and simple explanations. The charge that Obama was a dangerous radical was preposterous, yet it resonated in part because of his failure to use a little constructive radicalism on behalf of popular frustrations….

In an economic crisis, popular frustration has to go somewhere. If progressives don’t tell a coherent story about the culpability of rapacious elites and work to restore some balance to the economy, right-wing populists are happy to supply the narrative. A moment when progressives were primed to take back a majority politics has been not just lost but actually ceded to the right… Barack Obama’s New Democrat advisers… evidently had nothing plausible to say to those in economic distress. A deep recession was demolishing people’s dreams, and the incumbent Democrats were plainly not delivering enough. When Democrats failed to deliver, they (voters) easily reverted to Republican.

Little else matters. A Democratic Party that puts too high a priority on appeasing Republicans and the rich and powerful is a party that is either headed for electoral disaster or one that will produce little or nothing of value for the American people – probably both. As Robert Kuttner says:

The Republican Party had no serious program to remedy the financial collapse… Nor did it have plausible national leaders… But none of that mattered. If the in-party fails to perform well in a crisis, the out-party gains.


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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-10-10 12:05 AM
Response to Original message
1. The "Most Crushing Democratic Loss in U.S. House Since 1894" doesn't mean much
As you pointed out: Democrats "lost control of House but not Senate"

Democrats losing 30 or 60 doesn't matter when the other party gains control of the House. The Dems gained only 31 seats in 2006 to control the House (with about the same margin Republicans now hold). Dems gained another 21 House seats in 2008 to increase their majority to 257, which is 17 seats more than the new Republican majority.

Also, unlike 1994 and 2006, the party out of power failed to take control of both chambers of Congress, that is significant. It keeps Republicans at a disadvantage.

Republicans are trying to pretend that winning the House was everything, but they know not winning the Senate was a huge blow to their strategy.

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jancantor Donating Member (403 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-10-10 12:10 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. It's not just about the house and senate
People keep ignoring the big gain in repub governorships and the repub gains in state houses and senates when they are making historical comparisons. Not all politics are federal. Some of the worst stuff happens on the state level. Arizona anybody? Frankly, my life has been more negatively affected by stuff my local (state, county) govt. has done than what the Federal govt. has done. And I live in a friggin' blue state!

When you take the totality - this is especially devastating
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-10-10 12:13 AM
Response to Reply #2
4. Not
Edited on Wed Nov-10-10 12:13 AM by ProSense
ignoring it, but if you read through the information there, it may or may not impact anything.

Also, there are other factors.


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jancantor Donating Member (403 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-10-10 12:21 AM
Response to Reply #4
8. How can substantial change in the balance of power
in state legislatures, not "impact anything?" For me, and for millions of others, what my state legislature does generally has a more substantial effect on me, especially when it comes to basic freedoms etc.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-10-10 12:22 AM
Response to Reply #8
10. Read
the information. There is a wealth of it there.

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jancantor Donating Member (403 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-10-10 12:33 AM
Response to Reply #10
18. I did
I understand the nuances mentioned, but it's clear to me the point stands, and is in fact supported by what you posted.

Complete control (gov, senate and house) in some states and a heck of a lot more if you look at unified house and senate or just a switch to a repub governor.

Sure, we held the line in some states, like CA, MA, etc.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-10-10 12:38 AM
Response to Reply #18
19. Control isn't the only factor
For example, Republicans can't guarantee they'll be able to protect incumbents after redistricting.

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jancantor Donating Member (403 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-10-10 12:46 AM
Response to Reply #19
24. Well great
I'm talking about the present situation, not how it may get better in the future. I'm not sure if we are really disagreeing here. It also is a fact that repubs are now in power to a much greater extent than they were AND I can't see how this isn't a negative vis a vis the every-10 yr redistricting that is coming up
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-10-10 12:52 AM
Response to Reply #24
27. I'm talking about the current situation also
The thing is that it's not a sure thing for Republicans.

Redistricting occured in 2000, and that didn't lock any Party in for a decade.

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sabrina 1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-10-10 11:24 PM
Response to Reply #27
80. The thing is, that you are ignoring completely, none of this
Edited on Wed Nov-10-10 11:24 PM by sabrina 1
needed to happen. Did you read WHY it happened? If Democrats continue to put their fingers in their ears and cover their eyes, the takeover in 2012 will be massive. Over 20 Democratic Senate seats are up for reelection next time.

The only reason Repubs failed to take the Senate this time was thankfully, they had more seats up for reelection than Democrats.

IF Democrats do not listen to the people and continue these policies of siding with Republicans and with Wall St. even their most loyal supporters will have to think twice about what has become of this party and whether or not it is still the party they joined.

All the arguments to try to negate what happened, will not help, as they did not BEFORE this election. Had more time been spent actually listening, actually paying attention to what their own party members were trying to tell them, instead of trying to justify every wrong decision, such as Offshore Drilling eg, we might not have lost at all.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-10-10 12:58 AM
Response to Reply #2
32. Agree with you ..... but ....
Edited on Wed Nov-10-10 01:02 AM by defendandprotect
I also have a hard time believing this since so many are still voting on

GOP computers -- !!!

Somehow the Koch Bros. T-baggers are serving as this smoke screen to convince

everyone of how logically this thing has worked out. I personally don't believe it.

But agree on the local and state control -- look at us here in NJ with Christie as

Governor -- and still don't know how in the hell that happened?

It's a state that repeatedly keeps Dems in office -- but plays musical chairs

with Governors? There's an active swiftboating machine here for Dem governors --

that's true!


Basically, since the voting computers began to come in during the late-1960's, I'd

question every election back to Nixon/Humphrey-!!

Meanwhile, we also have to notice the LARGE computers used by MSM -- they began coming

in during the mid-1960's and gave MSM new powers to PREDICT and CALL elections.

Prior to that time, they could only report official vote tallies!

What we saw in 2000 was simply a reversal of those new powers to name WINNERS and

CALL elections -- even for president.

Coincidentally, these computers all began to come in around the time America was passing

the Voting Rights Act.

Was there ever a "Southern Strategy" ... or was there only ever computer voting?




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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-10-10 12:21 AM
Response to Reply #1
7. I think that the bottom line is that it was a huge loss, and it's essential that the right lessons
be learned from it.



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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-10-10 12:27 AM
Response to Reply #7
12. That's true of any loss, but
this is not one to overhype. The Republicans are on shaky ground.

The biggest lesson comes from the blue dog losses, members who failed to support the President's agenda.

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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-10-10 12:49 AM
Response to Reply #12
25. They lost a lot more than just Blue Dogs.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-10-10 12:54 AM
Response to Reply #25
28. The Progressive Caucus
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-10-10 01:03 AM
Response to Reply #28
34. That doesn't change the fact that they've lost a lot more than just Blue Dogs
They lost 28 from the Blue Dog caucus and at least 31 other seats so far.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-10-10 01:06 AM
Response to Reply #34
38. Most of the others were New Democrats.
Is there really a difference between a blue dog and someone who votes against unemployment?

The fact is that Democrats who stood up for Democratic values won.

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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-10-10 01:19 AM
Response to Reply #38
48. The Democrats who won were mainly from Democratic districts
Those from Republican or neutral districts fared very poorly on average.

The larger point is that there was very little progressive legislation of much importance. There was a huge bailout of Wall Street, very little help for the millions who lost their homse, health care "reform" was a huge compromise witn the health insurance and pharaceutical industries, virtually nothing was done to stave off climate change.

I agree that if important progressive legislation was on the table, and if Democratic House members voted for it and passed it, House and Senate Democrats would have done very well. It was the caving in to corporate interests that lost so many House seats for the Democratic Party.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-10-10 01:20 AM
Response to Reply #48
49. "The larger point is that there was very little progressive legislation of much importance. "
Again, not everyone agrees

Republicans are livid for a reason.

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olegramps Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-11-10 10:26 AM
Response to Reply #12
82. I fear the Republic is on shaky ground.
The person-hood of Corporations by the crooked Supreme Court could lead to its complete destruction. When this is coupled with the right wings determination of transform the Republic into a quasi theocracy its future is less than determined. Anarchy could be the result.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-10-10 12:32 AM
Response to Reply #7
16. Also, you refer to the health care reform fiasco
That's not really an accurate read.

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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-10-10 12:52 AM
Response to Reply #16
26. The health care "reform" bill leaves control of health care in the hands of the insurance industry
Health care is becoming less affordable to most Americans as health insurance companies substantially raise their premiums.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-10-10 12:56 AM
Response to Reply #26
29. That's your opinion
not how voters viewed the bill.

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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-10-10 01:07 AM
Response to Reply #16
40. The link you provided shows 42% of Americans view the bill as somewhat or very favorably
That's hardly a ringing endorsement. And as I pointed out in the OP, voting for the bill resulted in a decrease in the likelihood of retaining House seats -- notwithstanding the fact that Dems from liberal districts could vote for it with impunity.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-10-10 01:09 AM
Response to Reply #40
42. The link also shows that more than 70 percent support the key provisions
Edited on Wed Nov-10-10 01:14 AM by ProSense
all except the mandate, and the numbers are high even among those who want to repeal the bill.

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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-10-10 01:22 AM
Response to Reply #42
50. Sure. Some of the key provisions are good. I support them too.
But the overall bill is far from good.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-10-10 01:11 AM
Response to Reply #7
43. Actually, I think we know the force coming at us is $$ = Power ....
There's a great deal at stake for the elitist right wing --

and they've been after it for 50+ years -- overturning the NEW DEAL

to get on with the stealing.

A lot of force behind that thinking --- and a lot of people now in their employ.

Corporations have bought out most of our elected officials --

When we understand that, it begins to explain a lot!

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TexasObserver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-10-10 01:14 AM
Response to Reply #1
47. It does to all who are not in denial, as you seem to be.
Occasionally, it's good to come up for air. Get some oxygen in those lungs. Let the brain work again. Slavishly maintaining the president can do no wrong has made your opinions difficult to take seriously.
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jgraz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-10-10 12:51 PM
Response to Reply #1
68. I wouldn't worry about the Repubs failing to take the Senate
If your level of denial is indicative of the rest of the Sensible Centrists, the Pukes should have no problem taking the Senate and the White House in 2012.
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ShamelessHussy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-10-10 08:39 PM
Response to Reply #1
78. if you are part of the elite
maybe
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yourout Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-10-10 12:11 AM
Response to Original message
3. It could have been worse.
Now we get to watch the GOP implode while almost nothing they want gets passed.

Not much was going to get passed even had we keep the house unless the fillibuster rules were changed in the Senate.
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Major Hogwash Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-10-10 12:43 AM
Response to Reply #3
22. Exactly. We could have had a 2nd Civil War by then.
Edited on Wed Nov-10-10 12:44 AM by Major Hogwash
What century is he living in, anyway?
1894?
Before the invention of radio. Poppycock, and balderdash.
Before the invention of television. What the hello?
Before Glen Beck got his own program. I say, that changes the entire outcome, doesn't it?

Why, the imagination runs wild with the Tea Party running amok these days.
And why do they run amok?
Because there are no laws restricting them, that's why!

There's a Michelle Bachmann in every Republican, just waiting to come out.
I say, come out, come out, where ever you are.
Be yourselves, be hypocritical to the max, cut the taxes for the rich, put creationism in the schools, and pass "English must be spoken here" laws, and then see what it has brought you.

Let them wreak havoc on the culture of this country.
I dare them, because there is not one single person living in Florida today who would know what the culture of a person living in Wyoming is like.
No crab cakes in Casper! No lobster traps up there to set.

My gawd, he had to go clear back to 1894 for this analysis?
William Buckley just rolled over in his grave.
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BlueCaliDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-10-10 12:57 AM
Response to Reply #3
31. My take on it, exactly. They should have done away with the filibuster
because of the Repubes' propensity to abuse whatever power they have, and have been doing it ever since 2007.

So when the 110th Congress convened with the Democrats in the majority, Reid should've changed the filibuster a little. At least limit it to Federal judges, just the way they used to use it exclusively before.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-10-10 12:17 AM
Response to Original message
5. Bookmarking to read in the morning.
Thank you, TFC.
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Ter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-10-10 12:20 AM
Response to Original message
6. Mistake found
Edited on Wed Nov-10-10 12:22 AM by Ter
It was 1994, not 1992. Also, you say Democrats lost 6 or 7 Senate seats. How do you figure? Only Alaska is still ongoing, and that won't affect the count at all. it was a Republican seat, and will either stay the same or go extreme Republican.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-10-10 12:27 AM
Response to Reply #6
13. Right, 1994
When I wrote this, the Washington Senate seat hadn't been called yet. So, now it's 7.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-10-10 12:40 AM
Response to Reply #13
20. You mean 6 not 7
Democrats won Washington.

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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-10-10 12:44 AM
Response to Reply #20
23. Yes, 6
I corrected it in the OP. It's getting late, I'd better go to bed.
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AtomicKitten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-10-10 12:22 AM
Response to Original message
9. It's just a flesh wound. The Democrats still hold the Senate and WH. nt
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-10-10 12:24 AM
Response to Reply #9
11. That's true. Unfortunately, all signs of legislative life were coming from the House. n/t
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AtomicKitten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-10-10 12:32 AM
Response to Reply #11
15. Reminds me of Josh Marshall's tweet.
@joshtpm How can the Dems stop the Republican agenda when they only control the Senate and White House?
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-10-10 12:56 AM
Response to Reply #15
30. He should have said "the White House" because there's not much use in controling
something as inert as the Senate.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-10-10 12:30 AM
Response to Reply #9
14. I don't agree with that
The Democrats need both Houses to get any substantial legislation passed. Their record was poor enough when they held both houses. Now it's unlikely that anyting good is going to come out of Congress in the next two years. Furthermore, if they don't learn the appropriate lessons from this loss, things are going to continue to get a lot worse.
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AtomicKitten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-10-10 12:41 AM
Response to Reply #14
21. Other than what Democrats try to pass in the lame duck session,
Edited on Wed Nov-10-10 01:17 AM by AtomicKitten
I suspect little or nothing substantive will be passed over the next two years. The Democrats were quite productive (hardly a poor record) moving legislation through Congress over the past two years in spite of GOP obstructionism. It is very likely we will now experience complete and utter gridlock.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-10-10 07:52 AM
Response to Reply #21
55. What is more important than the quantity of legislation is its quality and impact
I'll echo what Kuttner has to say about this. After reciting some impressive legislative accomplishments, he says:

Nevertheless, the larger economic catastrophe overwhelmed the benefits of these new programs outlays -- and the incipient political reversal suggested that these new outlays would be short-lived... Budget catastrophe of the states left public education closing schools and laying off teachers...

The events of 2009 were a net reversal for social justice. Obama's success, or failure, will depend not on incremental gains for liberal pet causes, but on whether he confronts the larger forces blocking fundamental reform and brings about a major shift in the economy and whom it serves. All of his small successes, some of them genuinely impressive, will be demolished by a continuing failure to seize the commanding heights of economics and politics to produce a broad-based recovery...

The corporate capture indeed afflicts a major faction of the Democratic Party, not just Obama's own top economic appointees... Obama has fiscally conservative Blue Dogs and corporate-minded New Democrats in his own party. In the Senate, several key Democrats are even more inclined to seek common ground with the Republicans than he is...
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ProudDad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-10-10 01:06 AM
Response to Reply #14
39. Not much good has come out of Congreff is the last 35 years...
Edited on Wed Nov-10-10 01:07 AM by ProudDad
I sure as hell wouldn't expect anything different now...
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-10-10 01:12 AM
Response to Reply #14
45. " Their record was poor enough when they held both houses."
Again, not everyone agrees

Republicans are livid for a reason.

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Major Hogwash Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-10-10 12:32 AM
Response to Reply #9
17. Exactly. Come back and here and fight like a man, I've still got my head!
I could head butt the Republicans with.
I dare you, you can cross this bridge to nowhere, but you must fight me first!!

This House of Representatives led by the Republicans, probably with Representative Boehnor as the Speaker of the House, isn't dead, it's just pining for the fjords!!



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ProudDad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-10-10 01:05 AM
Response to Reply #9
36. Corporatists also continue to hold the House too...
Net change = Zero...
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Raster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-10-10 01:02 AM
Response to Original message
33. Brilliant analysis, Timeforchange.
:kick:
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ProudDad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-10-10 01:04 AM
Response to Original message
35. Very good work... On Edit: Brilliant analysis! (n/t)
Edited on Wed Nov-10-10 01:10 AM by ProudDad
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-10-10 01:05 AM
Response to Original message
37. Back to read tomorrow ... but remember, we're still voting on computers ....!!
Edited on Wed Nov-10-10 01:08 AM by defendandprotect
Have to think about the right wing violence we've suffered over more than 50 years

taking liberal leadership --

The very aggressiveness of the Repugs in formulating propaganda -- and their dedication

to it -- still going on.

The very aggressiveness of the attacks on seated Democratic elected officials --

Gray, in CA for one -- a recall!!

The aggressivenesss of the attack on Clinton -- from the first moments -- suggestions

that his total was insufficient -- this was the Perot/Bush race -- and finally the

impeachment.

There's more going on here than simply politics and angry voters!!

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ibegurpard Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-10-10 01:07 AM
Response to Original message
41. k&r
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TexasObserver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-10-10 01:12 AM
Response to Original message
44. The election was a referendum on the president.
People voted with him in 2008 because they believed his message of Hope and Change.

People voted against him in 2010 because he didn't deliver Hope or Change.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-10-10 01:23 AM
Response to Reply #44
51. Exactly
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Skittles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-10-10 01:13 AM
Response to Original message
46. politicians are overwhelmingly Wall Street whores now
:(
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pnorman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-10-10 04:47 AM
Response to Original message
52. K & R for careful study later.
n/t
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Catherina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-10-10 04:54 AM
Response to Original message
53. Bookmarked and recommended. Thank you n/t
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Joe Chi Minh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-10-10 06:41 AM
Response to Original message
54. Brilliant. Your anger rises while you read it, as you see it all set out so clearly.
Edited on Wed Nov-10-10 06:44 AM by Joe Chi Minh
I feel Obama has not only let down the American people, but more specifically, African Americans, as well. And this, after holding out such hope that he would raise their status to the level owed to them, as a remarkable people.
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creon Donating Member (723 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-10-10 07:55 AM
Response to Original message
56. working majority
I do not see that either party has a working majority. If there ever is, it does not last for long.

The Dems should have been able to take advantage of the window of opportunity and did what they thought was right. Rather than follow the line of least resistance, by taking the easy way out.

If they did what they thought was right, and stood up for it --- the party would have lost fewer seats.


It comes down to honor and integrity.
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onenote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-10-10 08:25 AM
Response to Original message
57. 1994 and 1946 clearly were more crushing defeats than 2010
Edited on Wed Nov-10-10 08:50 AM by onenote
since it is far more crushing to lose both houses than just one. And I'd even argue that 1920 was a worse defeat, since Democrats lost the WH that year. Plus as a result of the 1920 elections, the Democrats went from having 49% of the House to only 39% and from 45% of the Senate to a mere 30%. In 1920, seven Democratic senate incumbents lost.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-10-10 08:44 AM
Response to Reply #57
59. My claim was that it was the most crushing defeate "in the House" since 1894
The presidency wasn't in play this year. This election produced the most Democratic seats lost since 1894 in an election in which they lost the House. 59-65 lost House seats is a huge number for one election. The Democratic Party needs to learn some lessons from this, not argue about whether there was some election in the last century that was worse.
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-10-10 08:35 AM
Response to Original message
58. Excellent analysis.
Will elected Democrats and their apologists listen, or will they ignore and downplay, and move us further down the wrong path?

You should send this to some key players and see what they have to say.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-10-10 05:39 PM
Response to Reply #58
74. Thank you. I don't know what they'll do
I tend to think that some of them are simply waiting for the cushy high paying jobs that await them when they retire from Congress. Too many of our politicians are bought and paid for. That's what you get when bribery of politicians is called by another name and is considered legal unless highly blatant.
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judesedit Donating Member (450 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-10-10 09:16 AM
Response to Original message
60. This is only half the story. These gains by rethugs were bought with corporate, personal & foreign $
The democrats were starting to regulate and expose them for who they are. and the GOP, or corporations, don't like anything to be regulated or the truth to be told. They make money by ripping people off, selling pharmaceuticals that will make people sicker, putting chemicals in food to keep us fat and quiet, keeping us poor by outsourcing our jobs to cheaper, unbenefitted workers, keeping us poor and under their thumbs, while destroying the planet through their greed, hairbrained ideas, and lack of scruples. They'd throw their own mothers under the bus.

Anyone who thinks this election will benefit them in any way is snorting peanut butter. It's a farce and you've been brainwashed and duped. The outcome of this election will only benefit the corporations, their patsies, and the 2% wealthiest in this country. They could give a shit less about the deficit. Watch them give themselves raises, while they dismantle the programs that benefit the underprivileged in this country. Watch them waste our tax dollars with phony, trumped up investigations, like they tried to do to Clinton, while they were cheating on their wives, having long-term, full-blown affairs. If you are a progressive, liberal, democrat or sane independent and you didn't vote, shame on you. If you voted for the GOP lying, hypocritical scum, you have blown it bigtime and will be feeling the results shortly. Just watch.

By the way....the same e-voting machines that have been proven to be hacked in minutes are still being used in this country. And still being tampered with to steal elections. Clint Curtis is one of the people who created the software to throw the election to Bush in 2004. He's already testified to it. How else do you think that evil bumbling idiot got into office? Twice yet. Our Congress should have kicked him out as soon as it was proven to be true, but they left him and his criminal cronies in office to destroy this country for 8 long, miserable years. And the party responsible for this little fact is now back in power in the House!!!!???? How many super-idiots do we have living in this country? Too many. Just the way the GOP likes it.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-10-10 11:56 AM
Response to Reply #60
66. I certainly agree that corporate money and control of the media was also a major factor
What this means is that 1) We need major revisions in laws that govern the conducting of campaigns and corporate control of the media. However, this is highly unlikely at this time given the composition of our Congress (not to mention lack of presidential interest in the matter).

It seems to me therefore that by far the best strategy for Democrats who care about their mandate to serve the American people is to work towards legislation that will serve the American people, rather than bow down to corporate interests. As noted in the OP, when FDR did that he had tremendous opposition from corporate interists, and they opposed his re-elections with every means at their disposal. But he got results that greatly benefited the American people, and they greatly appreciated that. Consequently they re-elected him by large margines three times, despite the intense efforts of corporate interests to oppose him.
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a2liberal Donating Member (381 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-10-10 09:32 AM
Response to Original message
61. K&R! (n/t)
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Overseas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-10-10 09:38 AM
Response to Original message
62. K&R. Too much to say. //nt




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indepat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-10-10 10:24 AM
Response to Original message
63. All this further demonstrates just how extreme this administration's politics have been to the
right. :shrug:
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-10-10 04:33 PM
Response to Reply #63
73. I bilieve that he's the most right leaning Democratic president we've had since
the late 1800s -- Grover Cleveland, and I'm not sure about that. Before that you have to go back to before the Civil War, when Democratic presidents (and most others too) supported slavery.
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blackspade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-10-10 10:38 AM
Response to Original message
64. Completely agree.
The administration and democratic congress critters need to wake up.
Perhaps a review of history rather than listening to Blue Dogs and 'New' Democrats would help.
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jsmandrake Donating Member (32 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-10-10 10:49 AM
Response to Original message
65.  The Planned Failure
Democrats did not and will not have a consistent, coherent message....why?
because they don't want one.
Democratic election losses were planned, by them.
The Democratic party could not have been so incompetent not to see all the various ramifications that would come from the last election.(ie.-redistricting (which leads to party-control), overtaking of state seats (which will now implement austerity measures --which in turn will take the heat off the Feds for imposing them themselves) ...
With that in mind the obvious conclusion is to know that the results are exactly as planned.
(You might as well add these, too,---- the with holding of funds by party leadership to a number of important races (tip of the iceberg in terms of high profile: Grayson, Feingold ..)
---The timely & calculated abuse of the progressive wing of their voter base.
---And, never forgetting, the intentional dismissal
of millions within the original grass root organization that elected Obama . (note: that began the day after election)
What you are left with is the ideology that dare not speak its name---- ie, you daren't speak it if you are a traditional democrat.
And NO they are not, and neither is the President.
We are now left with policies that were obvious long before the expiration date on our denial.
Bottom line ....It was all planned.
To top it off ....what these manipulators thought would be accepted & satisfactory would be to send out their poster-boy Obama... and have him admit to bad electoral judgment while accepting a 'leaders' blame. (they hope the buck stops with him)
Not to worry.
I mean, people just can't help but love Obama....... or, at least his good intentions.
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jgraz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-10-10 12:34 PM
Response to Original message
67. Thank you. The failure to grasp what a colossal defeat this was will guarantee a repeat in 2012
It's not just how many we lost, it's when we lost and who we lost to. This would be like FDR losing the House in 1934, and losing it to a Republican party led by the Klan. It's a historic failure of political strategy and political will.

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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-10-10 02:23 PM
Response to Reply #67
70. Excellent analogy
A lot of these right wing nut jobs that we see so much of these days do remind me of the Klan. The difference is that -- for now -- they have to talk in code to their supporters when espousing their far right wing/racist positions. But that could change. Not too long ago, Pat Buchanan actually justified and applauded slavery on his web site -- and he suffered no consequences for it.
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jgraz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-10-10 02:31 PM
Response to Reply #70
71. Even the Klan analogy doesn't capture how insane and dangerous these people are
Maybe Nazis would have been a better analogy, but I didn't want to descend into the standard GODWIN!! argument. However, I think the parallels are becoming more and more clear every day.

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Uncle Joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-10-10 12:51 PM
Response to Original message
69. This is an excellent analysis, I believe you nailed it.
Thanks for the thread, Time for change.:thumbsup:
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-10-10 03:33 PM
Response to Reply #69
72. Thank you Uncle Joe
Hopefully Dems will learn a lesson from all this. I wouldn't count on it though.
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ColesCountyDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-10-10 06:45 PM
Response to Original message
75. Your own numbers show that 1938 was worse.
I don't do 'new math', when it involves politics. 71 is 71, and 6 is 6, no 'spin' needed.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-10-10 06:55 PM
Response to Reply #75
76. 1938
In 1938 the Democrats won 262 of 435 House seat, giving them a 262 to 169 lead over the Republicans, a margin of 97. A big part of the reason that they lost so many seats that year is because going into the election their lead was so monumental (333-89) that it was insupportable. It's difficult to call an election in which they won a 97 seat majority a crushing defeat, notwithstanding the fact that they lost 71 seats.
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ColesCountyDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-10-10 08:32 PM
Response to Reply #76
77. That's what I mean by 'spin'.
Repeat after me, please: "71 is still 71, and 6 is still 6".

:hi:
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-10-10 10:39 PM
Response to Reply #77
79. I would say it's context, not spin
Do you really believe that 1938 could be considered a catastrophe for the Democratic Party, as they maintained huge majorities in both Houses of Congress and the Presidency?
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ColesCountyDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-11-10 05:41 PM
Response to Reply #79
83. No, I don't believe that.
That's why I didn't say that.

:hi:
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kentuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-10-10 11:30 PM
Response to Reply #76
81. Very interesting historical bit...
Thanks.
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