Ok on security and security theater

[nadinbrzezinski]

There are real threats out there, and it is HIGH TIME our government has an adult conversation with the people.

Suffice it to say that I expect a small, but very loud, group of Americans to deny that there is a real threat out there, on BOTH SIDES. Hey, many years ago I was told that trying to have these conversations was like useless. Now I get it, sadly.

The conversation has to be both ways. Some things (Rapiscan and gropes) are unacceptable for the general population. Yes, IF YOU have probable cause they MIGHT have a place... but that means PROBABLE CAUSE, not general use. I know that is a distinction that many folks don't understand.

We cannot go back to the Clinton Years. Those were the good ol' years when Wackenhut made a killing and these days Xe would make them look like very good really.

We also need to accept that certain things... such as BEHAVIOR PROFILING will have to come in. Yes, it works, ok. But you need a LOT of people, well trained people.

But now the worlds of an agent many years ago make sense. There is a certain percentage of the population that distrusts anything coming out of the government... to the point that if we tell you, assume for the moment I am part of those fascist forces, that the sky is blue, you will deny it, even if it is blue.

Of course politically they FEEL they need to do this since they have not realized, YET, that it don't matter what they do, the RW will go after them.

Now part of this conversation has to come with a good dose of reality. NO, we cannot protect you 100% of the time, that is reality, suck it up. We have to succeed 100% they only need to succeed once. But there is a ROLE for YOU citizens to play in this. And they need to FINALLY train people on what is suspicious... they always tell you, what is out of place... well then...

Of course I also know we need a TOP DOWN policy review and those machines gotta go. But as an ADULT I realize that yes there is a certain threat out there... and I am willing to accept that perhaps, though the risk is very low, if I board a plane Ahmed or Roger will blow it in the name of insert ideology here. It will not be AQ for ever... and that my risk of that happening is actually lower than mechanical failure. BUT I also realize the ECONOMIC impact of this and the psychological impact.

Oh and for the record, as I said today earlier in the day... going to SDSU to do some research, guess what? The system worked... very well... even if it was annoying as hell... but it worked And readying the news release, it strikes to me that somebody got some stuff out of the chemistry lab. But hell, that is life in the modern world... and I am glad in this case, San Diego Police, Campus Police, Trolley Police did their jobs, as well as the bomb squad and the fire department, even if it took five hours to clear the station.

[Xipe Totec]

1. This is an autoimmune disease

The country's defense system is attacking the very citizens it was meant to protect.

The remedy is worse than the disease.

[nadinbrzezinski]

2. This is why we need the conversation

and the top down policy review.

The machines gotta go, as well as the gropes... but we need to really have this conversation,

Realize we haven't since 9.11.

As a Navy wife we got more of a talk on security since we lived on base, and we were part of base security. That is the kind of talk we need on a NATIONAL basis... and the gropes need to go, as well as the machines.

[Xipe Totec]

3. Consider the cost of what we have done since 9-11

weigh it against the damage done to us on 9-11.

Use dollars, body count, loss of liberty, or whatever other measure you care to.

We have done more damage to ourselves since 9-11, than Al-Qaida did to us on 9-11.

Everything Ossama hoped to achieve he has done. He has turned us into the agents of our own destruction.

[nadinbrzezinski]

4. I am aware

why I call this security theater and say that 22 men with box cutters won.

That is why we need, sorely need, to have this damn conversation.

The knee jerk needs to stop, and yes, we need to act like adults. Realize a few people cannot deal with this, and still think that the threats are not there.

For the record, they are NOT limited to OBL and his band of merry men, 5000 at best... and that yes, there are SOME INTERNAL threats that like to do some damage too.. we just don't like to call THAT terrorism.

[Xipe Totec]

5. That's why I have a problem with profiling

Tim McVeigh would pass through a profiling screen like crap through a goose.

Because he held a white card priority pass.

I can't tell you how many times I've witnessed the only non-white in a crowd be pulled out of the line for questioning.

I'm not talking just airlines.

Even rock concerts.

They always pull the guy who looks suspiciously 'off color'.

[nadinbrzezinski]

6. I am talking behavior

I am not talking of racial... and to do that you need well trained people...

We may need to call it something else... but it does work.

For the record, Mr. McVeigh was NOT acting normal either... and his behavior signals started in the army.

And yes I mean people like good ol' Timmy when I talk about Profiling.

If you want to use another term, THREAT ASSESSMENT, which I suspect saved my life a few times.

[Xipe Totec]

7. You're talking behavior. True. I'm talking expected behavior of the goons

Train them all you like, but they will still have that innate bias against the 'other'.

[nadinbrzezinski]

9. Alas why this conversation will NEVER happen

and they will continue doing what they are, reacting, instead of doing what is known and proven to work.

[Xipe Totec]

12. So say you, and at what cost.

Are you basing your position on the Israeli model?

[nadinbrzezinski]

13. and personal experience

yes...

We called it Scene Safety, but the guy reaching for his belt buckle, into his buckle, after getting shot in the chest, was not doing that to breath better... the 25 caliber was all the proof I needed that it works.

The guy holding tight to his left bag after getting shot in the foot, was trying to protect the 40 cal ammo...

And the guy coming at me wild eyed, and holding a broken bottle, presented a clear and present danger to me and my partner.

Realize I didn't see color or "race" or social class.

[noise]

8. We can't have a real conversation

because too much of the information is secret. Instead we are asked to accept the word of officials who have no problem lying to the public for CYA, political gain or to conceal corruption.

A real conversation is only possible with real transparency.

[nadinbrzezinski]

10. That has to be part of the conversation

the Israelis don't give up the store, but have had that conversation. They have it all the time...

[Swamp Rat]

11. k&r

[nadinbrzezinski]

14. kick

[Ozymanithrax]

15. It is comforting to think that we are unasailable...

9/11 wiped that comfort away and allowed eight years of FacistLite. But Americans are really good at forgetting the past. Many hardly remember 2 years ago. And they just don't believe. Since we haven't been hit, well except for Fort Hood, and those were military guys so that doesn't count, we are safe.

Then there are those who think that if we just quite interfering with the world, and tell the world that we will play nice, they will not hurt us and we get to keep all the pretty perks of Empire. Yes, we are mean, interfering, ass wipes, because of he Empire. Our place at the top of the World Food Chain is built on that empire and when it comes tumbling down, all those perks go with it.

Our comfortable lifestyle that is a geometric progression above most of the other countries in the world is there for the same reason some people don't like us.

I don't expect to be told secrets that will get people killed in unfriendly places where the average person pisses against walls and prays in a funny language to a God by any other name. I do expect to have an adult conversation, for the government to explain why I need to be slightly irradiated, or vaguely penetrated.

Cross posted at http://frankdarbe.com.

[nadinbrzezinski]

16. You know it would be a good thing

if we had that conversation...

It would also help if people understood who has jurisdiction where, and why things happen.

Getiing out of Afghanistan, where half of the population don't even know 9.11 happened, will not help. After all the Wahabbi that hate our guts want us dead as the New Satan.. the old Satan was the USSR... and I guess the next will be China...

Committed religious fanatics are fun... I know.

But people really need to understand that as minor as the threat is... it does exist...

That said, these machines and procedures DO NOT work.

[nadinbrzezinski]

17. And this is relevant to the discussion

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x9620906

[KharmaTrain]

18. As Always Emotion Trumps Logic...

Nadin...I've been following your threads on the topic and agree wholeheartedly with all you've written. This isn't a black and white issue or one that has a quick fix. There certainly are those who want to terrorize this country and the air travel system is one vulnerable point, but most definitely not the only one. I've been saying all these security measures have been done to prevent the last attack not the next one.

One thing that may be necessary and this gets under people's skin is some kind of profiling...not racial, but as you pointed out based on the traveler...professionals have said over and over you get more out of reading body language and demeanor than you do with a scanner. Every one of these attackers did raise suspicion prior to boarding but the system ignores that in hopes of catching a wireless bra bomb.

Bottom line is someone intent on terrorizing this country has many ways to do so...paying so much attention to one area creates a vulnerability in another and that's what a smart and determined terrorist will go for. Right now the fact they can screw up our system so badly with the most meager attempts must make them feel energized and emboldened.

Unfortunately this issue has been politized now...and when that happens reason goes out the window. It's "porn scanners" and "gropers"...and misses the point that our security system has failed if it needs to suspect its own people.

Cheers...