What America would give up to have universal health care.

[salinen]

Not much really. But it would be a huge mental shift. This is a warrior nation, not a "nanny state", as our best friends on the right say. You can't on one hand be giving in the most caring way imaginable (universal health care) and promote war and violence with the other. The two don't mix. In a way, relieving the anxiety and burden of the present day system of for profit medicine, would be the opposite of how America has evolved to become the meanest, nastiest, most heartless caricature of itself.

America could easily provide universal health care. It might mean a war or two less. Or maybe the rich might finally have to pay some taxes. Or corporations might be forced to not offshore. Or commodities markets play by the rules.

None of these are going to happen unless we do what we are not doing yet. I don't know what we're not doing, but there must be a way.

[ladjf]

1. You said a lot in a very few words. Thanks for the great post. nt

[jtrockville]

2. We're already paying more now, than if we had universal care.

It wouldn't be necessary to cut back on war, or increase taxes, or anything else. Simply remove the profit, and we'll end up paying less than we do now, and we'd be able to provide health care for all.

[JuniperLea]

3. We could raise taxes to cover it...

And people would STILL be paying a lot less because they wouldn't be paying those ridiculous premiums.

That health care is a for-profit industry is vile; it's nothing but blood money.

[ejpoeta]

4. i try to get people to see that they are paying three times for the same thing.

and to try to explain how we pay into the for profit system but end up on mediare or medicaid when we actually need to use it. if we had medicare for all we'd be paying into the system and using that same money if we needed it later. they only understand money. but as long as they think THEY are ok and insured then they are fine with it. what they don't seem to get is that as long as they don't use it the insurance companies are happy to take their money. but if and when they actually need to use it they will find out that they aren't going to get what they paid for.

[salinen]

6. I know many people who have health insurance

but are afraid to use it. Mindboggling.

[Phentex]

13. This is what is happening. My neighbor and I were discussing this...

Not too many years ago those that had theirs (mostly company paid for) "good healthcare plans" rolled their eyes and said "What's the problem? They (ones without) should just get jobs with good plans."

And NOW they find out that THEIR premiums are going up and their services are going down and NOW it's a big deal. How dare the companies remove some of their benefits! How dare they have to increase their deductibles to be able to afford their plans! How dare they have to make choices about what they can afford!

I don't even think the shit has hit the fan yet. But at least those with their eyes closed before are waking up.

[jtown1123]

21. Some Republican I met at a bar in D.C.

told me that my 25-year-old friend who works in NYC on strictly commission, should get a better job since he can't afford to pay rent, eat and get health insurance on what he makes. I am really not sure if these people can be reasoned with.

Luckily my friend's Dad put him on his health insurance (thanks Obama!) a few weeks ago. He was diagnosed with aggressive testicular cancer literally days after he was insured. Do Repubs want my friend to die? Maybe, I really don't know.

[bobbolink]

49. Thank you for speaking the truth to people. I am convinced it is up to us.

[Ozymanithrax]

5. First, Americans would have to pay higher taxes.

All nations with anything like Universal Health Care pay higher taxes. That is a much bigger shift in thinking than the warrior shift.

Second, we have to change the way we ration health care. All health care is rationed, everywhere. In England, Canada, Germany, France, and other national health care providing states people do not get every thing they want, but everyone gets some health care. Some medical procedures are just too expensive to provide to everyone. Some don't make sense. An eighty year old man probably will not really need a knee replacement. We ration health care by denying it to those who can not afford it, leaving the emergency room as the place where the desperate go to die. That does require a mental shift to think about health care as to each according to his need in accordance with set priorities.

I don't think we are a warrior nation. We are an empire, and all empires put priorities on maintaining domination on the world stage rather than making citizens happy. The empire is going to end whether we get universal health care or not. All empires end.

[salinen]

7. .

"That does require a mental shift to think about health care as to each according to his need in accordance with set priorities." You know how close this sounds to "Marxism"? The Theory of Communism is rather human, I think.

[Ozymanithrax]

10. I am not advocating nationalizing ownership of the means of production.

I am not advocating nationalizing ownership of health care facilities.

It is possible to champion systems that work for the good of the tribe/nation/group without going socialist.

Marxism/Communism/Socialism are Utopian systems that do not work well in practice and are not human or necessarily humane. They do have many good ideas.

I am a classic liberal, and that ideology is not compatible with many aspects of Marxism/Communism/Socialism.

[polly7]

11. Really? Which medical procedures would those be? n/t.

[Ozymanithrax]

15. Certainly any plastic surgery not for strict health.

I know of several cases where replacement of hips was refused because the person was too old to have much use for it. An eighty year old man is not going to climb mountains.

Then there is the American policy of doing five, six, or seven tests just to be sure. Refusing to do that third, fourth, and fifth test is rationing.

In Germany and France you see a list of various medical services and how much they cost. If it isn't on the list, it may not be provided.

Here in the U.S. of A. we have the most expensive health care system in the world. If it is available, you can get it done...for a price. The cost of anything goes technology is rationing health care to the poor.

In Japan, you will not get the newest best technology in medical scans. Without the profit motive, there is no reason to buy the latest type of medical scans and they are not made available. That is rationing.

At a basic level, studies have shown making simple preventative health care visits to everyone would increase the average life span by about ten years. Someone with terminal Cancer may not get a million dollars worth of care to extend his or her life by six months to a year. That is rationing.

Here, if you don't have one of the Cadillac health care plans you suffer rationing. I have GERDS, and every time I get a new prescription, they try to give me a generic. I've yet to find a generic that works the same way as the Protonix that was originally prescribed. Generics are supposed to work the same way, but they are different compounds. I have to pay extra to get my non generic medicine. I get rationed every time.

All systems are rationed, because there are limits to what any system can provide. Health care will always be a finite resource. It is inhumane to ration by taking any health care except emergency rooms form the poor so the middle class and above can have a wider range of choices.

[polly7]

17. Strange, my uncle just had a hip-replacement. He's 84.

Another about the same age is scheduled for his very soon. No, he doesn't climb mountains, but he still needs to get up and down his stairs. We just brought an elderly woman home a week ago who had her surgery, she'll never leave the nursing home, but her pain was unbearable.

Each province is different regarding wait times, something both Federal and Provincial Gov'ts are very concerned with and working hard to improve, but refusing surgery isn't something I've come across, and I've worked in hospitals, nursing homes and with EMS.

Regarding diagnostics, I recently lost my father .... he received every test known to man, I'm sure, and didn't wait for any of them, using the 'best' technology. Canada really isn't some backwards country where health-care is 'rationed'. We have a long history of providing the best care to rich or poor. Not perfect, but far from what you were implying.

You're correct, elective plastic surgery isn't covered. I have no problem with that.




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DXXBCFnhsUc

[Greyhound]

19. More than made up for by not paying Insurance parasites.

One of the most frustrating things with this debate is that, yes taxes would increase, but that's where the reich wing starts screaming and drowns out the rest of the argument.

We already pay more than enough to provide true universal health care, we just pay it to these parasites. Too many people think that is somehow preferable to paying taxes.
:crazy:

[Ozymanithrax]

28. I agree that universal health care would make up for the present system...

[Hugabear]

22. So?

Consider how much is spent on insurance premiums, copays, deductibles, etc. We would probably end up paying LESS in the long run. Besides, if paying higher taxes means I have access to medical coverage then so be it.

[Ozymanithrax]

29. For people who buy insurance now, it quie possibly would make no difference.

except for who you write the check to.

But there are a lot of people who balk at that.

[Fumesucker]

24. How many invasions and wars have we been involved in during the last century?

Almost too many to count..

If there is such a thing as a warrior nation on the planet, we are it..

[Ozymanithrax]

30. Most Amerians are not warriors...

But our empire requires a focus away form the citizens. I don't think that is good.

[Fumesucker]

32. By some measures we spend more on war than the rest of the planet combined..

While we are only somewhat less than 5% of the population of the world we spend as much as the other 95% on war..

That's as close as any nation is likely to come to being a "warrior nation".

Even in Sparta not everyone was a warrior..

[Ozymanithrax]

39. Of the 300 million plus Americans of all ages...

only 9% have served in some capacity in the military.

We are not a warrior nation. We do not have a warrior ethic.

What we are is an empire focused on being the dominant nation in the world.

[Fumesucker]

41. As I said, if any nation in the history of the planet could be labeled a "warrior nation"..

It is the USA..

More dominant than Sparta, the Hittites, the Mongols, Rome in its heyday and so on..

[Ozymanithrax]

43. Most American have never served and know no one who has.

They don't like the military. They prefer the military do its job and keep quiet.

Only a few ex military ever get elected

A warrior culture holds warriors in great esteem. That is not us.

We are a business culture. The hero's of our society are businessmen who make money. A warrior culture like Sparta placed warriors at the top of their culture, made them their leaders, and lionized death in battle as the best of all deaths.

Warrior cultures do not exist in this age. Capitalists are king. Warriors are useful tools.

[Fumesucker]

45. I've served as has my son in law.. USMC 69-72, he was USMC also for five years..

I guess you weren't around for Shock 'n Awe, not to mention the first Gulf War, bars full of Americans watching the fireworks on big screen TV's and cheering at each new explosion.

For a culture that doesn't hold warriors in esteem we damn sure spend one hell of a lot of money on them.

Find me the American movie that makes a hero out of a businessman (Gordon Gecko?), they are far more often portrayed as villains. On the other hand the number of American movies that portray warriors as heroes are legion, from Guadalcanal Diary to The Great Escape to The Guns of Iwo Jima to Heartbreak Ridge to Saving Private Ryan to Blackhawk Down.

A 2006 Harris Poll shows that the most trusted institution in America is the military.

http://usmilitary.about.com/od/theorderlyroom/a/06harrispoll.htm

John McCain would never have gotten anywhere in politics without being a POW war hero, George Washington, Andrew Jackson, Zachary Taylor US Grant, Teddy Roosevelt, Harry S Truman, Eisenhower was SACEUR for FSM's sake, JFK, Jimmy Carter, Ronald Reagan, GHW Bush, GW Bush was lionized as a fighter pilot (Mission Accomplished?).

[Ozymanithrax]

48. Vietnam era vet..retired after 20...U.S. Navy.

Showing a few people who were in the military doesn't make up for most of the House and the Senate most of the 44 Presidents who never saw service.

Modern Americans not a warrior culture. They are a Chicken Hawk culture that want to send a few people out to kill and die for them. We are an Imperial Culture.

They love the perks of Empire, but hate the men who do the dirty work.

[Fumesucker]

50. Since WWII the proportion of presidents who have been vets is much higher..

Than through the rest of our history..

We are also one of the most heavily armed nations on the planet in a civilian sense as well, consider the fetishization of the Second Amendment and the dismissal of all the rest by a big percentage of our population.

Like I said, show me a movie that makes a hero out of a CEO, Gordon Gecko is the only one I can think of still.

[fascisthunter]

25. the benefits would outweigh the small price in taxes

there are expensive consequences when people get sick and don't have proper healthcare.

Oh... your theory that socialism doesn't work is not true. Most socialized countries are doing just fine no matter what the business sector keeps lying to Americans. There is no pure system that works, and is why our economy is failing us. We could use more socialism, thank you.

[Ozymanithrax]

31. Socialism has not worked well in most of the places that tried it...

Taking ideas form socialism has worked. The loss of individual rights through the socialist economic doctrine are incompatible with liberalism and individual rights. But, except to Republicans, universal health care isn't socialist.

[fascisthunter]

34. Why are you Bringing Up Socialist Economics?

Who said anything about having a complete socialistic system? I thought this thread was about universal healthcare. Having universal healthcare does not equate to the boogeyman you make socialism out to be. Are you trying to conflate the two or imply that this would lead to that?

It appears as if you are so averse to paying a little more taxes that you ignore the benefits to society and the economy itself... the two have a direct impast on both society and economy. Why is that hard for people to understand.

Where do you place human needs when it comes to economics? You either care or don't care enough. Most on this thread don't have much money yet are willing to pay a little more to help each other out. My question to you and others who seem so against it is WHY? Wouldn't we have a more productive society if people are healthy or can afford healthcare???? The benefits would offset that infintesmal loss you would pay in taxes. It's a price we pay for each other to be a better nation.

[Ozymanithrax]

40. You may have misread my post, or I may have miscommunicated, if you think I oppose...

national health care.

I started by pointing out that it is more than just a shift in thinking to bring it about.

Somebody else pointed out that this statement of mine sounded socialist and good.

That does require a mental shift to think about health care as to each according to his need in accordance with set priorities.

[Festivito]

47. No, it would LOWER TAXING. No, with higher taxes you're measuring apples to oranges + apples...

Last estimate is that we pay as a nation $7200 per year per capita, or 2.4T$/year. The countries offering full coverage to everyone are paying from under $3000 to under $4000 per year.

What needs to change is the mindset that giving everyone health care makes health care better and actually lowers the price of health care to be less than the price of giving just some people health care.

Next, you make a false comparison, so common to the right wing. You compare our federal taxes with their federal taxes, apples to apples, but, theirs includes oranges: health care, retirement, property taxation, local and state costs which are expensive. Just because we take these off our income BEFORE we calculate our percentage does not mean that we do not earn our keep, nor that our percentage should be lower. Nor, because we choose not to include our other taxations from state, county, city, utilities, et. al. into the federal number, that we do not pay these taxing items. Put these and the rest of the items into the calculation of what we EARN, count the taxing items as taxes and THEN COMPARE apples and oranges to apples and oranges. I have found we pay MORE AND GET LESS.

Your "second" point is that we would CHANGE rationing. Well, rationing is rationing. And change can be good.

[Fumesucker]

8. We already pay enough for medical care to cover everyone in the USA..

But our system of medical care delivery is so inefficient that we spend twice as much per capita as some nations that actually have better overall health outcomes (longer average life).



Indeed, as the chart above shows we could cover everyone in the country and actually spend less money than we do right now if we just got the efficiency of our medical delivery system up to the level of say the UK, Japan or Finland.

[eridani]

9. Nothing at all, given that we already pay twice per capita what other developed countries pay

The payment structure changes. Of course that's easier said than done.

[AnArmyVeteran]

12. Eliminating the soulless, corrupt health insurance racket would eliminate billions in waste.

[salinen]

14. The HMO's

make enough cash to buy their corrupt positions. That's how America works today.

[AnArmyVeteran]

42. The mob that sold 'insurance' in the 20s, 30s and on are like today's insurance companies.

Shop owners used to be threatened with bodily harm or have their shops burned if they didn't buy protection 'insurance'. If they didn't pay they were beaten, burned or even killed. The insurance industry is modeled after their 'business plan'. Except now insurance companies buy off our government to pass laws making what they do 'legal'.

We need a justice department to go after the rich just like Elliot Ness used to do. If Obama would have done that he would have been a hero by now. Even a lot of tea baggers would have began to support him.

[me b zola]

16. Not only would I be willing to give up war...

...I'd also gladly give up our 1%ers that are bleeding us dry.

[glitch]

36. +14,000,000,000,000. (last estimate I heard on the derivatives tsunami headed our way) nt

[kestrel91316]

18. Give up foreign wars of aggression and endless occupations -

that will more than pay for our entire social safety net.

[leftstreet]

20. WE don't have to give up anything. Insurance companies do

Screw em

[ThoughtCriminal]

23. A few billionaires may have to sacrifice

That 3rd yacht might have to be 3-feet shorter.

I know that the rest of us have no problem dying in agony and bankrupt to prevent that from happening.

[dsc]

26. actually the British medical system is a direct result of WW2

as is ours. Theirs evolved from the ethos of taking care of the people injured during the war (both civilians and military) while ours evolved from the post war anti inflation measures which barred salary increases so adding health care was an approved way of competing for employees in post war America.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

27. For the past 30 years, conservatives have deliberately cultivated self-centeredness

When I look at the wing nuts on the Minneapolis paper's website, I see people who hate the idea of universal health care because someone they disapprove of (immigrants, dark-skinned people, AIDS patients) might receive care at taxpayers' expense.

It never occurs to them that they would also be receiving care at the expense of taxpayers who disapprove of THEM.

[fascisthunter]

35. and promoted divisiveness between American citizens by Lying

and feeding paranoia and hatred of eachother. Unforgivable if you ask me...

[Jeneral2885]

33. Well the latest UNDP HDR says otherwise

http://hdr.undp.org/en/media/HDR_2010_EN_Tables_reprint.pdf

US Ranks pretty high in HDI--4th in the world with life expectancy at birth at 79.6

[NNN0LHI]

37. As I recall, when a SS buy in was being discussed which is close to UHC it didn't go over real well

I may not be remembering this correctly and I am sure someone will correct me if I am not, but as I recall this Medicare buy in idea had a lot of support last year until we found out that the cost of such a plan was anywhere from $600 to $800 per person, per month, depending on the state.

Don

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

38. Universal Health Care (Single Payer) won't happen

The insurance companies won't allow it, they'll simply buy enough congressmen to kill it. And fixing the corruption in congress is not in congressmen's best interest, as they see it.

There may be some small improvements that can be done, like allowing insurance companies to compete nationwide, and creating a public option (fat chance).

:hi:

[Liquorice]

44. There is a segment of our population who would rather suffer and die than have

affordable healthcare for all. I'm not sure why that is, but I do know it's true.

[Glassunion]

46. I would gladly give up all republicans, the TSA and Haliburton to the woodchipper.