Encounter with a freeper (re: "Democrat" party)

[11 Bravo]

My wife threw me a surprise birthday party last night, and as the evening wore on and the beer continued to flow, the talk turned to politics. One of our guests (the date of a friend) made a few disparaging remarks about the "Democrat" party. When I called him on it he replied, "If a person is a Democrat, then they are a member of the Democrat party, just like a Republican is a member of the Republican party." (He obviously is a dittohead, as I heard Limbaugh make exactly the same argument recently.) I asked him, "Who is the point guard for the Wizards? (We're just outside of D.C.) He said, "Gilbert Arenas." I responded, "So Gilbert is a Wizard, right?" He said, "Yeah." Then I asked, "Why isn't Gilbert a Wizards? He's a member of the Wizards so he can't be a Wizard, he must be a Wizards." The guy was a little off balance, so I pushed on. "Clinton Portis can't be a Redskin, he has to be a Redskins. Derek Jeter isn't a Yankee, he's a Yankees, right?" By now, the guy was pretty flustered, so I applied the coup de grace. "My party is the Democratic National Party, and I am a Democrat. We get to name our party, you don't. And if Rush can't wrap his mind around that, then tell him to untie the half of his brain that he claims to keep tied behind his back, because he clearly needs it. Now, have another beer and shut the fuck up." A couple of people actually applauded. I think the analogy was applicable, so feel free to use it, employing members of your local team. It certainly quieted this particular asshat.

[blue cat]

1. Good for you!

recommended!

[Dinger]

2. Here's A Good Article On This:

And good job! I will use it! Very, very good way to shut up a repuke!!!

Article:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/11/21/AR2006112101223.html

[kath]

46. Here's another article, from The New Yorker:

THE “IC” FACTOR

http://www.newyorker.com/talk/content/articles/060807ta_talk_hertzberg

[Rebellious Republican]

3. Touche 11 Bravo, very good!

:applause:

[tabasco]

4. Haha! Good one!

Tell your wife to be more selective with the guest list next time.

[KharmaTrain]

5. They Hate democracy (with a Small D)

Most of the dittoheads and wingnuts have no ability for critical thinking or independent thought...that's why they parrot talking points that we can easily pick out these days and are so inept when you try to engage these goons on serious issues.

A big reason is they need to be led...they can't stand on their own two...and they hate the concept of representative government. They love the authoritarian system...be it the "paternal" type or the "strong leader"...the one thing they can't stand is for the "little people" to get in the way of an imperial presidency.

A great way to straighten this loser out...and kudos for standing up and saying you support the Democratic Party...in recent years that's taken a lot of cajones to say...but now not only does it feel good, it makes one feel proud.

Cheers...

:toast:

[SalmonChantedEvening]

6. Well done 11 Bravo!

Can I steal that? I have a few idiots I need to slap around .... :)

[11 Bravo]

10. Please do. I owe you more than I can ever repay for the song parodies!

Please, keep 'em coming!

[Fovea]

7. To name them truely

you have to refer to them as the ReNAMBLAcan party.

[TheCowsCameHome]

8. I don't like "Democrat" either, but it beats being the "Republicans lost" party

And happy birthday!

[Judi Lynn]

9. Thanks. Shows how desperate they are for inspiration, doesn't it? They don't have any actual issues.

Have to entertain themselves with fools' play. Idiots!

[rpgamerd00d]

11. I delivered a similar smackdown, but was more succinct.

I simply said:
"Dude, did you fucking fail English back in grade school? Democrat is a noun and Democratic is an adjective. Don't you fucking know the difference between a noun and an adjective you fucking moron? Ha ha ha ha! Hey everyone! X doesn't know the difference between a noun and an adjective!"

[CTyankee]

51. I manage ESOL classes and have been an ESOL tutor.

Altho I have not had to deal with this on a personal level, you have inspired me to give a great riposte which is to say: "You know, it's interesting. I have people in my classes for whom English is not their first language. I am using your usage of that term as an example of incorrect English. It will help recent immigrants as they learn how to speak proper English."

That oughta shut them up fast!

[Buzz Clik]

12. This ranks as one of the more bizarre hang-ups ever.

If some shithead wants to call it the Democrat Party, let him. It shows that he's a shithead. I refuse to get pissed off because shitheads don't deserve my energy.

[hadrons]

16. yeah, I kinda think this is a joke of Rush's ....

just to see how stupid his listeners are ... because this is too stupid to be taken seriously by anyone with an IQ over 45

[11 Bravo]

20. The usage pre-dates Limbaugh. It goes back to McCarthy.

You probably knew that. Based on your gratuitous IQ reference, you're probably a fucking genius.

[11 Bravo]

18. I refuse to allow them to co-opt the language.

Intact D-X extraction, hell, call that partial-birth abortion. Turn over custody of our woodlands to the logging industry, Healthy Forests Initiative. Allow industry to reduce air pollution limits, shit, that has to be Clear Skies. The complete abrogation of every civil right Americans possess, that's a no-brainer, the Patriot Act! Sorry, but these pricks have been allowed to bastardize the language for far too long. We need to draw the line somewhere.

[Buzz Clik]

21. There are more important battles. Choose them wisely. Save your energy.

[proud2BlibKansan]

24. I think this battle is very important

Children are being left behind, forests are not healthy, skies are not clear and we are the DemocratIC party. I'll be damned if they are going to be allowed to keep twisting language to fit their warped agenda.

[Buzz Clik]

28. Do you really feel that the energy you spend demanding the use of "Democratic"...

... will somehow address that "children are being left behind, forests are not healthy, skies are not clear"?

I'm a registered Democrat, and if some weed gets his rocks off calling it the Democrat Party, I'm more than willing to let it go.

[proud2BlibKansan]

30. By changing the language,

they are framing the debate. You bet I think this is important.

[Buzz Clik]

31. I really don't understand. Framing the debate my mispronouncing a word?

You need to explain this to me.

You made some sports analogies earlier -- would star basketball players suffer if the name of their team was intentionally mispronounced? Would their skills diminish or would the goal of the game (ie, scoring more points) change simply because their opponent managed to piss them off? I think you need to follow the sports parallel further -- if you allow yourself to be distracted by trash talk, your game will be off.

[proud2BlibKansan]

33. Have you read Lakhoff's Don't Think of an Elephant?

Or Crashing the Gate?

Both are great books about how the right changes the language and reframes the debate. They have been at it for years and we absolutely MUST talk back and use OUR language.

This is NOT trash talk.

I didn't make the sports analogy, the OP did. But I do agree that was a good argument.

[Buzz Clik]

34. Okey doke.

My argument isn't making any traction with you. So be it.

I'll save my ire for other things.

[crispini]

38. Seriously, do check out Lakoff

Here's a link ... language is important. The word "Democratic" is intimately tied in the minds of the American people as "a good thing," i.e. "a democratic society." The Republicans are trying to take that away from us, and we can't let them do that. Also, it's well known that this usage is a smear that allows them to say "DemoCRAT" with an emphasis on "rat."

Do check out Lakoff ... HOW we say things is intimately tied with how we think. Language matters. There are also many good articles on this topic here: http://www.rockridgeinstitute.org/

[Buzz Clik]

47. That makes it clearer to me.

Your objection is the fact that "democratic" has many positive attachments that "democrat" lacks. So, it's not just the ridiculousness of using a noun as an adjective; you'd still object if they referred to it exclusively as the Democrats' Party.

I see your point better now, but I think a less emotional response is in order -- correct their grammar and move on.

[crispini]

48. Exactly.

It's absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with whether or not it's grammatical.

And, well, yes, if somebody doesn't know better, then correct their grammar and move on... IF it's a grammar mistake. Quite often, it's NOT a grammar mistake. The devotees of Rush Limbaugh et al use it as a deliberate slur.

Hendrik Hertzberg writes, "There’s no great mystery about the motives behind this deliberate misnaming. 'Democrat Party' is a slur, or intended to be - a handy way to express contempt. Aesthetic judgments are subjective, of course, but 'Democrat Party' is jarring verging on ugly. It fairly screams 'rat'."
....
Republican leader Harold Stassen said in 1940, "I emphasized that the party controlled in large measure at that time by Hague in New Jersey, Pendergast in Missouri and Kelly-Nash in Chicago should not be called a 'Democratic Party.' It should be called the 'Democrat Party.' <4>"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democrat_Party_%28phrase%29

Think about it -- if your name is Thomas and someone calls you Tommy and you correct them, and they accept the correction and move on, that's an honest mistake. If your name is Thomas and somebody repeatedly calls you Tommy despite your polite requests not to do so, that person is being a controlling dick who is pushing your buttons, and deserves to be called on it. This is what I see in the OP's actions. ;)

If you're interested in how the Republicans use language to control the debate, you can download the complete Frank Luntz "confidential" briefing book here:
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2005/2/23/3244/72156

It's fascinating. If you happen to download it, start with the Appendix: "14 phrases you should never use" -- it'll blow your mind.

[cool user name]

13. Booooyaaahhh ...

Excellent rejoinder.

Happy Birthday, too!

[nolabels]

19. Next week I want to try and become a Booooyaaahhh too

All kinds of expressions of speech can exist but this new one of needing people except a denial as a way to carry out speech is kind of new to me. Before we can have this conversation you must acknowledge by your speech that the plural is measured in a one singular. I can except myself to being a party to only myself but then I must confess i never listen and also spend less time than no time at all ever listening or trying to understand the rest of all this confusion.

(Another words the king (Notice, this would be you when you are one singular) anoints what is reality and what is fantasy by his decree)

Btw, this includes making up you're own punctuational rules also

[cool user name]

22. What?

I have no clue what you are talking about.

[nolabels]

60. That is exactly to my point and that is what makes US king

I was trying to make a funny remark about the Booooyaaahhh but it just got out of hand :shrug:


Btw, don't be too concerned if you think i am confused, it is all part of my secret plan to confuse freepers by showing them that all kinds of people can be almost as confused as freepers if they really put some effort into it. I know all that don't make sense for most people but it does for some (mostly me :P ) so Booooyaaahhh

[cool user name]

61. LOL ...

Ok, carry on then. I just wasn't sure if you were insulting me or not.

:hi:

[Trajan]

14. Unfortunately ...

Being tied down to this semantical dispute, you didnt get a chance to convince any moderate Independents in the room to vote 'Democratic', because you didnt get to talk about any issues beyond 'ic' ....

I am NOT a big fan of this 'problem' .. I think it detracts US from the real, more substantial issues in our world ... like war, like death, like suffering .... We talk about 'ic', but people are dying .... When does the moderate fence sitter hear about the sincerity of the Democratic Congress in doing the people's work, and how effective they were in their first 100 hours, and how effective they will be in TRYING to solve the nation's problems ? .... AFTER 'ic' ? .... BEFORE 'ic' ? ....

It is a frivolous semantical dispute .... I think it hurts us more than it hurts them ...

[Mr Rabble]

25. Exactly correct. I posted this yesterday....few responses.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=3164887&mesg_id=3164887

Let them associate "Democrat" party with good governance.

[skyblue]

49. Agreed. Like Stem Cell Research that could help alzheimer's patients, Global Warming so our kids

don't get asthma, Right to Join a Union, Overtime Pay. While it might make the person who doesn't add the -ic feel that he's being somewhat illiterate (this 'Democrat' party seems like a new phrase), the Right to Choose etc, gets ignored. On the other hand we can also call them by any number of names. I think it depends on how you approach it. The big to do and the issues are ignored the small to do and maybe you can them to listen. maybe. They'll probably use it again anyway, until they get the idea that indeed they sound illiterate.

[Aviation Pro]

15. Hardcore, Grunt, hardcore....

...Fuck 'em if he can't take a joke.

[frogcycle]

17. good exercise in semantics - heres another example

Q: What is the name of our country?
A: The United States of America
Q: So what do you call a citizen of the US?
A: A "United-States-of-America"
or, for short, an "America"

[Evergreen Emerald]

23. Yeah....good for you

I find it so insulting for them to attempt to rename our party on their terms. It is power and control.

Great job.

[Trajan]

27. Funny thing about 'Power' ....

IF you ignored the misnomer, and simply ran over the mistake and proceeded to promote your own agenda, then YOU are controlling the dialogue ....

It is by demanding those two letters that you 'empower' THEM ....

EVERY second you spend arguing about those two letters is a second NOT spent degrading George W. Bush and the GOP failures in government ....

Ask yourself: Who is controlling who ? ...

[Evergreen Emerald]

32. I keep hearing that argument--I disagree with it.

And so does society, otherwise people like Michael Richards or Mel Gibson's tirades would not be so generally unacceptable. Words do hurt. And they do matter. And those people should be called on their tirades every time.

Look at the word "liberal." While we turned the other cheek, the republicans re-defined what it means to be liberal: from open minded and caring--to a crazy loon. Language is important. And we let them take our language and re-define it.

You suggest that when they use the term, it is a mistake. You must be unaware of the history behind the slur. It is intentional and ugly.

You ask who has the control: They do not have the power or the control to re-name my party. And I will call them on it every time.

[crispini]

40. Right on, Evergreen Emerald

Language counts. :thumbsup:

[Buzz Clik]

35. Exactly.

Getting a ruffled over this is a waste of time.

[progressoid]

26. And a HAPPY BIRTHDAY to you!!!

:party: :toast: :beer: :hi: :applause: :patriot: :yourock:

[MadHound]

29. I simply don't get the what the big deal is over this issue

Democrat party, Democratic party, big fucking whoop. Quite frankly you would have done a whole hell of a lot more good in convincing this person to forego their support for the war, or Bushboy, or a myriad of other more pressing issues. Instead you took him to task for his syntax:eyes: Good fucking job.

Frankly those who get upset by this matter are getting played like a violin. They get all worked up over two missing letters, and go after it day after day, devoting loads of effort and resources to this little issue, while other, much more important issues slide on by. The conservatives know this, and play you folks like a Stradivarius, and you people keep on making a fine sound.

Knock off with the childish BS. This is so much like gradeschool, it's pitiful. Rush and his ilk do this because they know it will get a rise out of certain segments of the population, and they love to watch you folks get all huffy and puffy and ignore what else is really going on. If you ignore this bullshit, if you don't give the scum the satisfaction of watching you wail and gnash your teeth, they will drop it. Geez, didn't any of you learn anything in elementary school? Apparently not.

There are much more important things to devote all of that effort, words, and energy to. If you can't think of any, check in here and you will find plenty. But whatever you do, stop playing into the hands of these scum and giving the satisfaction.

[NightOwwl]

37. I think most of us can walk and chew gum at the same time.

Do you know the history of the term "Democrat" versus "Democratic?" If you do, I can't understand how you can let this insult slide.

It takes less than a minute to correct someone who uses the term incorrectly. That leaves us plenty of time to devote enery to ending this war, universal health care, stopping global warming etc...

[MadHound]

41. The thing is, it isn't taking a minute, it is taking years

I've seen this issue brought up here and elsewhere for years now, and always people work themselves into a royal froth, screaming and gnashing their teeth over this. And it is still going on, you know why? Because people continue to throw fits about it. This is elementary level shit, this is being done deliberately in order to get a rise out of people. Ignore it, don't give them the satisfaction of a response, and it will go away.

But noooo, people keep feeding the beast, wailing and gnashing their teeth. Sorry, but I think that people are getting way too worked up about this. And yes, I know the history of it.

[B Calm]

36. This explains why the fish in my pond are republicans. Regardless

of how many times I have caught them, they continue to bite on the same damn fishing lure.

[Stinky The Clown]

39. Happy birthday, guy!

Sounds like you gave yourself one hell of a birthday gift ..... freeper ass on a platter! :)

[Sparkly]

42. Some words are nouns, some are adjectives, some are both.

Republican is both a noun and an adjective.

Democratic is an adjective.

Democrat is a noun.

It's absurd to say that since Republican is noun and adjective, Democrat/Democratic should be the same.

Tell them "idiot" is a noun, "idiotic" is an adjective, same with "moron" and "moronic," whereas "partisan" and "facist" can be both noun and adjective. Moreover, "creep," "jerk," and "hack" can be both noun and verb.

[mnhtnbb]

43. Good for you, birthday boy!

[Contrary1]

44. Here's more "logic" to throw at him:

Cuban: A native of Cuba
Asian: A native of Asia
Korean: A native of Korea
Californian: A resident of California
Vegetarian: A person who eats vegetables and no meat

Republican: Idiot who agrees with and votes for Republic Party

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

45. This Whole Thing Is So Silly To Me.

I still don't know why some take it to heart so much. Letting the taunt get to you is the only way to give it any impact to begin with.

Do you actually think for a second that any regular Joe on the street gives a rat's fat ass about this argument? Rest assured, they don't.

Using it in the way they do is meant for no other purpose than to irk you. It isn't to get some message across to the general population or otherwise, cause like I said, none of them give a fuck about it. It's only purpose is to irritate you, and you let it. You shouldn't have. Ignoring it completely takes away its only purpose. Letting something that petty get to you is the only thing that gives it power to begin with.

And besides, I still can't help but shake my head at some of the mental contradiction that goes into the explanation of why it's bothersome, such as "Well they're using it as a smear! They're shortening it to democrat as a smear!!!". I mean, get a grip all. We're supposedly proud to be democrats but at the same time can believe that term is a smear? That's not ironic to you?

The way I see it, let them have their childish taunts if they want to use them. They should be ignored like any other form of childish taunt you come across in life. But instead of declaring it a smear, how bout regarding it with pride. One is either proud to be a democrat or not. Why allow a negative connotation to be associated with it if you're proud? If someone says you're a member of the Democrat Party, just say "Damn right I am, and damn proud of it!".

I dunno. I find this whole thing to be immensely silly.

[checks-n-balances]

53. Why not call them on their DISRESPECT? If not, it will continue

I've been noticing this for years and what they're doing is trying to get the public to associate the Democratic Party with something that sounds bad. Don't you get it yet that their party has been taken over by people who have the belief that they should take over EVERYTHING to do with politics and power? That this is but one, albeit minute-looking, way that they can control the national conversation?

Not too many weeks ago on "Hardball", Matthews corrected Republican spokesperson Ron Christie for doing this & Christie pooh-poohed it at first. Then Matthews came back at him again & he changed his tune, saying he didn't realize it was a put-down. The next time I saw Christie on the show he was actually careful and respectful about it.

Here's what a WaPo article said about it:
One Syllable of Civility
By Ruth Marcus
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/11/21/AR2006112101223.html

"...Democrat-as-epithet has seen its fullest flowering -- on talk radio, among congressional leaders and, more than with any of his predecessors, from the president himself -- during the recent Republican heyday. As Hendrik Hertzberg pointed out in the New Yorker in August, the conservative Web site NewsMax.com takes pains to scrub Associated Press copy "to de-'ic' references" to the party.

"There is, I concede, a trivial, sticks-and-stones quality to this linguistic bickering. "Two thousand, eight hundred, forty-seven votes in Montana may break your control," the Democrats might taunt the GOP, "but names will never hurt us." As any parent who's ever had to mediate between squabbling siblings could tell them, "He's only doing it because he knows it bothers you. If you don't respond to him, he'll stop." After all, Democrats, what's so terrible about being called Democrat, small "d" or large?

"But as a matter of simple politeness -- something the Bush family is famously good at -- it's rude to call people by a term that makes them bristle, even a seemingly innocuous one. There's also something grating and coarse-sounding about this abbreviated appellation, like saying "Jew" instead of "Jewish." It is, conservative wordsmith William F. Buckley wrote in National Review in 2002, "offensive to the ear."

"And with reason: It's intended to be. Republican -- Publican? -- politicians drop the -ic both to annoy the opposition and to diminish the big-D Democrats' claim to the small-d democratic virtues. " 'Democrat Party' is a slur, or intended to be -- a handy way to express contempt," Hertzberg wrote. "At a slightly higher level of sophistication, it's an attempt to deny the enemy the positive connotations of its chosen appellation."

[MODemocrat]

50. The DEMOCRATS kicked their proverbial assess

I couldn't be prouder than to be a member of the Democrat Party. We're not the desperate party, but
they sure are. Maybe this makes them feel better in their little feeble minds.:nopity: :nopity: :nopity:
How boring :boring: :boring: So many more constructive things the Freepers could be doing for their own
party!

[Balbus]

52. Must be a lame-ass party if people are talking politics.

My condolences.

[rep the dems]

54. Wow. I sometimes have trouble thinking of that kind of stuff right on

the spot, but you killed it! Nice job!

[GreenTea]

55. Perfect! So many around here at DU just don't get it, or worse they don't care!!

It has to be exposed and pressed every time the republican thugs purposely say their illiterate insulting shit!

[sakabatou]

56. Ooooo

Good one!

[Joe Chi Minh]

57. Fact is they're terrified of the word, "democratic". A d/Democrat is but

a single individual, but the word, "democratic" is less than a whisker away from the word, "democracy", a concept which has the same terrifying effect on them as the sight of a cross, garlic, etc on a vampire.

Why? For the simple reason that they know with irrefragable certainty that, with an informed electorate and an honest, electoral system based on proportional representation, they wouldn't have a snowball's chance in hell of ever gaining power. Not even for the office of dog-catcher in the smallest hamlet.

[Pushed To The Left]

58. I had the "Democrat Party" issue come up with a RWer while walking precincts yesterday

for our candidate for Supervisor (there is a runoff election on Feb. 6th). A car in the driveway had a sticker that said "Give War a Chance" and I realized that it was a Republican-Democrat married couple. Luckily, the Democrat answered the door and I began making the pitch for our candidate. She seemed like she was waving somebody off in back of her. When I asked if she was supporting our candidate, her husband interrupted from in back of her "Absolutely not! There's nothing Democratic about the Democrat Party!" I said "Democratic Party". He said something to the effect of "You guys don't even know the name of your own party. Morons!" and then he went off to the other room. His wife told me "I'll talk to him" and she closed the door. Has anyone else noticed some RWers have become a lot angrier when discussing politics since November?

[ElboRuum]

59. As much as I feel for your plight...

...when in a gathering (applause or no)... it is never appropriate decorum to "undress" a guest, no matter how misguided that guest may be.

One of our guests (the date of a friend) made a few disparaging remarks about the "Democrat" party.

Everyone is entitled to their opinions even if they've chosen the wrong venue to voice them. The appropriate thing to do would have been to take this individual aside and explain calmly that you are, in fact, a Democrat, and that you don't appreciate his political tone. Explain to him that his politics have no place at a gathering such as this, and while you'll engage him in political discourse at any other opportunity, political harangues have no place at fun little get-togethers. Remind him of the three party conversation no-no's: religion, politics, and <insert personal annoyance here>.

I'm all for a good dressing down, but this guy was someone's date. Maybe you embarrassed her, as well as him.