Fighting on Three Fronts

[H2O Man]

{1} "A non-violent revolution is not a program of seizure of power. It is a program of transformation of relationships, ending in a peaceful transfer of power." -- Gandhi; quoted in "Gandhi on Non-Violence; Thomas Merton; New Directions; 1964; page 28.

There is an interesting divide on the Democratic Underground, which seems to find two groups disagreeing on a couple important issues: the idea of impeachment, and the funding of the Bush-Cheney aggression in Iraq. Though these groups are not well defined, there appears to be one general group that is opposed to any move towards impeachment, and that feels the democrats in congress have no choice but to provide funding for the war, because they can not override a Bush veto.

The second group tends to support the idea of impeachment; there are different opinions on if the first target should be Bush, Cheney, or perhaps Gonzales. This group also believes that the congress is betraying the will of the people when they provide the massive amounts of funding needed to pay for the administration’s increase in the US occupation of Iraq.

The first group talks about "political reality." They focus on what they sincerely believe is too few votes to get a conviction on an impeachment. They also view the presidential veto as a stumbling block that can keep democrats from reaching their goals.

The second group believes that it is important that we work to save our Constitutional democracy by exercising those rights defined in the Bill of Rights. They are convinced that the Constitutionally defined option of impeachment should apply to this administration more so than any in our nation’s history. And they are familiar enough with the Constitution to know the Congress is supposed to control the nation’s purse strings, and that this is not dependent upon their having enough votes to override a veto. They know that President Bush has made a request for funding, and the Congress decides the terms he can get the requested funds on.


{2} "Writer-poet Sonia Sanchez, then an activist with the Congress of Racial Equality (CORE), told of encountering Malcolm as he gave a speech in Harlem one afternoon and standing for hours, even after it began raining, to listen. When Malcolm finished, she went up to him to tell him how much she liked what he had to say, even though she didn’t agree with all of it. Malcolm’s bodyguards tried to push her away, but Malcolm restrained them, held her hand, and listened to her patiently. When she had finished, Malcolm said to her, with a gentle empathy that bound Sonia to him forever, ‘One day you will, sister, one day you will.’

"And then, Sonia said, ’He smiled’." – Malcolm X: Make it Plain; Cheryll Greene; Viking; 1994; page 74.

Most if not all DUers recognize that the Bush-Cheney administration lied about "the threat" that Iraq posed to the safety of the United States, in order to gain support for the invasion of that nation. The lies included, but were not limited to, stating that Saddam had a WMD program; that Iraq had ties to al Qaeda; and falsely implying that Iraq was involved in the 9/11 attacks on this country.

Over the past couple of years, a number of the DUers in the second group have posted a significant amount of documentation that shows the administration intended to invade Iraq from January 2001; that they were aware that Iraq was not involved in the 9/11 attacks; that they purposely lied about the Iraqi WMD programs and stockpiles; that they instituted a "shadow government" in the hours after the 9/11 attacks that Senator Robert Byrd describes as a threat to our Constitutional democracy; that the OVP/OSP/WHIG was engaged in an illegal operation to damage Joseph Wilson, and to expose his wife and her section of the CIA to danger because Wilson called the administration on its lies Bush told in a State of the Union address; and that at least one neoconservative who was in the OSP was engaged in an espionage campaign that involved passing military secrets about Iran to a foreign nation.

These issues are discussed in numerous books worth reading. Among them are: (a) Against All Enemies, by Richard Clarke; (b) Losing America, by Senator Robert Byrd; (c) The Price of Loyalty, by Ron Suskind with Paul O’Neill; (d) Worse Than Watergate, by John Dean; and (e) A Pretext for War, by James Bamford.

As a member of the second group, I believe that it is important that VP Cheney is held accountable for his abuses of power. I think he needs to be impeached. I do not think that it will be possible to regain control of our government, and re-instate a Constitutional democracy, without confronting those things that VP Cheney controls through his office. I find it difficult to believe that bending under the threats of pressure by President Bush, and providing him with a huge amount of money that allows him to increase the level of US occupation in Iraq, and to further entrench our nation in another country’s civil war, is an avenue that leads to peace.


{3} " …. I have found out that all I have been doing in trying to correct this system in America has been in vain … I am trying to get to the roots of it to see just what ought to be done …. The whole thing will have to be done away with." – Martin Luther King, Jr.; November 11, 1967; quoted from "Malcolm X: Make It Plain"; page 164.

No one person is the "knower-of-all." And no group is right on everything. Weaknesses and strengths are in all of us, and so while one person/group may be weak in one area, it will be strong in another. Maybe it is good that there are two groups, with very different values when it comes to issues like impeachment and the way to end the war.

Perhaps we are like the right hand and the left hand. Minister Malcolm used to point out that it is important to use both hands in a boxing match. Plus, if we all thought just alike, and behaved in exactly the same manner, the democratic party would surely degenerate. We need to look no farther than the republican party for proof us this.

I will end this with a story I learned as a boy. It’s an Iroquois story, that elders teach to the younger generation. There was once an young Indian boy, who was supposed to follow a path. But he was busy. He had a lot of things he was busy thinking about. So he sat down near the path, and some times he would discuss his plans with his friends, and other times he would rest up, so he would have the energy to do everything he planned. And pretty soon, the path was grown over, and it was no longer possible for him to follow it.

As a member of the second group, I have explained why I do not think those who oppose impeaching VP Cheney and who think funding the Bush-Cheney madness in Iraq will help end it. Those are the wrong paths to take, in my opinion. I think our democracy is at risk, and our Constitution is being threatened. I am confident that one day soon, those from the first group will recognize this, too. I hope the path isn’t grown over.

[EFerrari]

1. . . .

[Me.]

8. Says It All

'brevity is the soul of wit' (though I can't imagine you're in any way feeling funny)

[EFerrari]

32. I admire H20 Man's calmness. I don't feel calm right now, no.

But anger only gets you so far and it's pretty depleting. If I think of this situation like a path to be cleared or like a garden to be tended, maybe I can calm down and get something done. :hug:

[bonito]

2. Thanks ,from a second group member!

:thumbsup:

[H2O Man]

3. Posting error ....

The OP was "double posted." Many thanks to the moderator who corrected my error!

[KoKo]

4. It takes being "VERY CLEVER" to fight a WAR ON THREE FRONTS, though..

That would take massive intellect and talent plus strategy and skill.

I'm not sure that this is possible? :shrug:

[H2O Man]

7. It will be hard.

But the results of not attempting to coordinate efforts among various factions will be more difficult to endure.

[KoKo]

26. I've been hoping we'd find that mix of skills.....

Had GREAT HOPE...once.

Don't anymore. But, what would civilization be without optimists to counteract those of us who get pessimistic from time to time...heh.... :shrug:

[LSK]

5. well I can be considered a member of the 1st group

At least my mind is. My heart is in the 2nd group.

With regard to Impeachment, I simply believe there will not be a conviction with this Senate. I have watched the GOP members of that body too much on CSPAN and there is simply no way that 17 of them will vote to convict. Having said that, I would love to see these mofos being impeached.

With regard to the spending bill, I am a little more torn. I have unanswered questions that nobody on DU wants to answer:
- If no supplemental is passed, does funding run out for Veterans and Walter Reed?

- Does the timetable version of the bill allow any troops to leave before September?

Ive been against this war since it began. Before I joined DU I felt alone in my beliefs of what a fuckup this all is. Im a borderline MIHOPer for christ sakes. I have been to protests. I worked to elect Dems to end this war.

Yet there is reality as I see it.

So I really don't know right now.

We all want this madness to end now, we just dont all know how to do it.

I hope I do not get flamed for this too much, but I cannot be anything except honest.

[H2O Man]

10. People have the right

to hold their own opinions, and to be respected when they discuss/debate them respectfully. It would be unrealistic to expect everyone to view this issues in the same general way. And, as Minister Malcolm used to say, any time two people think exactly alike, it means only one is thinking.

[Me.]

6. Like Moses In The Desert I Feel Like Crying, 'How Long'?

Watching him at the presser today, I can't even imagine who all this came to pass. Here are some interesting thoughts from Gore. And I have to say, how could we (as a country, for there are those of us who didn't):

<<<>>>
“Gore says our country's problems go beyond the manipulations and corruptions of Bush and Cheney. He talks about what has happened to this country that we could have ever allow a Bush and Cheney and their lies and evasions and incuriosity to take the reigns of our government - and allowed them to stay there after it became clear what they are about. And he has some very insightful things to say about the historical forces that brought us where we are, and how they might guide us through this….cont.

He asked how could not just the president, but the Congress, the media and the rest of our system of checks and balances and watchdogs have let Iraq - which he called the worst strategic blunder in our history - happen? How could the public have been fooled into thinking that Iraq had anything to do with 9/11? It's not just Bush who did that - it's all of us. Bush is just a symptom. We are ALL responsible for the decisions our country makes. So we all have to get involved and start fixing this broken system. Democracy is not a spectator sport.”

www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=963687

AS for Cheney, he is a criminal of the highest order and it may be getting to the point where impeachment is too good for him:

<<<>>>
“But this is worrisome. The person in the Bush administration who most wants a hot conflict with Iran is Vice President Cheney. The person in Iran who most wants a conflict is Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad. Iran's Revolutionary Guard Quds Force would be big winners in a conflict as well -- as the political support that both have inside Iran has been flagging.

Multiple sources have reported that a senior aide on Vice President Cheney's national security team has been meeting with policy hands of the American Enterprise Institute, one other think tank, and more than one national security consulting house and explicitly stating that Vice President Cheney does not support President Bush's tack towards Condoleezza Rice's diplomatic efforts and fears that the President is taking diplomacy with Iran too seriously.

This White House official has stated to several Washington insiders that Cheney is planning to deploy an "end run strategy" around the President if he and his team lose the policy argument.

The thinking on Cheney's team is to collude with Israel, nudging Israel at some key moment in the ongoing standoff between Iran's nuclear activities and international frustration over this to mount a small-scale conventional strike against Natanz using cruise missiles (i.e., not ballistic missiles). Cont…

http://www.thewashingtonnote.com/

[H2O Man]

9. How long?

On March 25, 1965, the American Moses spoke thus:

"I know you are asking today, 'How long will it take?' I come to say to you this afternoon however difficult the moment, however frustrating the hour, it will not be long, because truth crushed to earth will rise again.

"How long? Not long, because no lie can live forever.
"How long? Not long, because you still reap what you sow.
"How long? Not long. Because the arm of the moral universe is long but it bends toward justice."

[Me.]

12. Putting It In Historical Perspective

7 years is not very long and yet the amount of harm that can be done in 7 years is enormous, as we've witnessed.

[leftchick]

16. I agree

and as the mother of two young sons it seems an eternity to me. And to our earth that is dying as we speak. But what choice do we have?

[H2O Man]

48. I believe it will

take about 20-30 years of hard work to repair the damage that Bush2 & Cheney have done to this country and to the world. Some people tell me that I am overly optimistic in believing that we can do it that quickly.

[mod mom]

17. Unfortunately I believe this "lie" didn't start with the 2000 election theft and the debacle

that followed, so don't expect it to disapear magically with the next election. So I guess I'm involved with the second group and tie the defense of the Constitution and the need for election integrity with a verifiable vote. No more faith based elections with surprise finishes and silence on the part of my party, the media and the majority of the population.

I listened to a Fresh Air interview with an author (so sorry for my faulty memory but I was picking up 2 grade school children and missed the author) about an author (I believe he writes for Salon)who wrote about the Kennedy assassination from Bobby Kennedy's point of view. I believe we are dealing with the same forces, as well as their forebearers. Having this point of view makes it more difficult to root out the core of our problems. It will not go away with the next election and if it isn't addressed will just return to haunt us (think Iran Contra illuminati not to mention the fore mentioned Kennedy assassination). It sounded like an interesting read. I'll look it us and post it.

It is incredibly frustrating being around folks that don't take this serious. Worse are those who are "too busy" to get involved. The patience that Dr. King speaks of is trying in these difficult times. We should all be applying ourselves to fight climate crisis but instead have to put up to an illegitimate president and the enablers that keep him there.

:mad:

[mod mom]

18. "Brothers"

"Brothers"

The exclusive story of Robert F. Kennedy's secret search for the truth about John F. Kennedy's assassination. From the new book by Salon's founder and former editor in chief.

Editor's note: Visit David Talbot's blog on the hidden history of the Kennedy years.

By David Talbot

One of the most intriguing mysteries about the assassination of John F. Kennedy, that darkest of American labyrinths, is why his brother Robert F. Kennedy apparently did nothing to investigate the crime. Bobby Kennedy was, after all, not just the attorney general of the United States at the time of the assassination -- he was his brother's devoted partner, the man who took on the administration's most grueling assignments, from civil rights to organized crime to Cuba, the hottest Cold War flashpoint of its day. But after the burst of gunfire in downtown Dallas on Nov. 22, 1963, ended this unique partnership, Bobby Kennedy seemed lost in a fog of grief, refusing to discuss the assassination with the Warren Commission, and telling friends he had no heart for an aggressive investigation. "What difference does it make?" he would say. "It won't bring him back."

But Bobby Kennedy was a complex man, and his years in Washington had taught him to keep his own counsel and proceed in a subterranean fashion. What he said in public about Dallas was not the full story. Privately, RFK -- who had made his name in the 1950s as a relentless investigator of the underside of American power -- was consumed by the need to know the real story about his brother's assassination. This fire seized him on the afternoon of Nov. 22, as soon as FBI chief J. Edgar Hoover, a bitter political enemy, phoned to say -- almost with pleasure, thought Bobby -- that the president had been shot. And the question of who killed his brother continued to haunt Kennedy until the day he too was gunned down, on June 5, 1968.

-snip
http://www.salon.com/books/feature/2007/05/02/brothers/index_np.html

[H2O Man]

47. I saw that book

when I was recently at a book store, stocking up on a few good reads for the early summer. I had already picked up "Ultimate Sacrifice," by Lamar Waldron with Thom Hartman. I'll be interested in your opinion of Talbot's book.

[KoKo]

27. You do realize...that many of us won't make it to that Mountain....

and when time is short the expectations run high for accomplishment. A whole life watching nothing but defeat does lead one to wish for better sooner...when so much effort has been expended.

But...I always think...We are but a "blip in time." We are very small in the scale of things...but ideas and efforts...no matter how small and in whatever time frame can catch on ...if the time is right and if there are others to catch the "meme." I think of the Renaissance and the Age of Enlightenment.

No giants in this time...but perhaps we don't really see this time for what it is...just like the others might not have understood their own time and their own contributions to their "blip in time."

(sorry for all this philosophical crap spewing from my keyboard. I'm just very tired and sick at what I've seen now from what is going on. Feel very used...not good for anyone...so I'm kind of rambling ..pay no attention...it doesn't belong here.)

[H2O Man]

43. Yes.

When I was young, Onondaga Chief Oren Lyons explained to me that in order to accomplish anything of true value, one had to suspend the modern culture's sense of "time." And, indeed, that one had to have the confidence in doing the "right thing" knowing that it was possible -- even likely -- that one would not see the eventual fruits of one's labor.

One reason people are tired today is because of the unnatural pace of modern society. It spins faster and faster, and isspinning out of control. Bush may believe he is "in control" of the US occupation of Iraq, but he is not. He has no "control" in any real sense. He is only able to add to the energy forces that are causing Iraq to spin further and further out of control. I think this is the cause of the frustration among the grass roots: we know Bush is the most out-of-control politician on the planet today, and the congress just gave him an obscene amount of money, allowing him to spin further out of control.

40 years ago, Martin saw LBJ was on an insane merry-go-round, spinning out of control. And he spoke out against the war, and strongly advised Americans to get back on the correct path in life. And in his last speech, he told people that he knew he wasn't going to make it to that mountaintop with them, but that he had already been there.

We saw yesterday, at that troubling press conference, a president who showed a detached response to the fact that his insane policies will cause many US soldiers and Iraqi civilians to be wounded, to suffer, and to die. I think his heart is as cold as that of any inmate incarcerated in the United States. Even if the elected officials in the House and Senate were ready and willing to oppose him today, it would be a difficult struggle, because of the momentum of that out-of-control propulsion of violence Bush and Cheney have fueled for seven years. But with the congress giving Bush billions of dollars more, recognizing that he will feed more human beings to his furnace, the struggle will be even harder.


So again, you are correct that everyone isn't going to make it to that mountain's top. But everyone has the chance to participate in the journey.

[Straight Shooter]

11. I have the feeling we are approaching critical mass with this rogue administration.

:nuke:

[H2O Man]

49. I think it may

be a strange summer. This administration has fed the forces of blind nationalism, hatred, and violence for too many years, unchallenged. They have displayed gross disrespect for the US Constitution, and contempt for the rule of law. It's time for people of reason to stand up to them.

[kohodog]

13. Tonight I feel we are close to needing a third group

From the Declaration of Independence:

"Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object, evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security".

The consolidation of Presidential power under Bush/Cheney is threatening the fabric of our Constitution. I don't sense enough outrage for Impeachment, though I don't understand why. The argument about Iraq seems almost secondary...perhaps a smokescreen to hide the policies at home that are so damaging to we the people.

Tonight's vote was unconscionable. Again the Congress capitulated to the boy king.

Maybe Jefferson Airplane was right:

Look what's happening out in the streets
Got a revolution Got to revolution
Hey I'm dancing down the streets
Got a revolution Got to revolution
Ain't it amazing all the people I meet
Got a revolution Got to revolution
One generation got old
One generation got soul
This generation got no destination to hold
Pick up the cry
Hey now it's time for you and me
Got a revolution Got to revolution
Come on now we're marching to the sea
Got a revolution Got to revolution
Who will take it from you
We will and who are we
We are volunteers of America

[H2O Man]

15. Yes.

I think that the members of congress are cowards, and that they have betrayed the American public, the members of the military, our nation's history, and the US Constitution. And they are taking hold of a higher level of responsibility for the violence in Iraq.

Gandhi wrote that, "Cowardice is impotence worse than violence. The coward desires revenge but being afraid to die, he looks to others, maybe to the government of the day, to do the work of defense for him. A coward is less than a man. He does not deserve to be a member of a society of men and women." (Mertn; page 33.)

[hfojvt]

64. I think they are supposed to be cowards

afraid of the American people. Why won't they impeach? Because their office is not flooded with impeachMints and demands that they impeach. Same with the Iraq vote. Presumably if the American public had demanded - DO NOT CONTINUE TO FUND THIS WAR!! then even Republicans would have voted for timetables, cut-off dates, etc. Presumably they too answer to over-whelming public opinion.

But in a red state, I feel that I have no clout with my Congresscritters. Roberts and Brownback can probably figure that I am one of the 300,000 Kansans who will not vote for them no matter what they do. It's only when people who have donated to them, or worked for their campaign, or who are otherwise local Republican activists write to them that they will sit up and take notice.

As far as the two groups from the OP, I think there should be a third group. Not really fence-sitters, but those who could be persuaded if somebody shows them the case. Hyperbole and shrillness and Republican debating techniques of 'you are either with us or against us' or 'those who voted for the funding are traitors and murderers' or 'anybody with opinions (x, y, z, ...) are freeper/trolls' (admittedly sometimes, or often, that is true, but I would still rather answer their spin with facts, or engage them, where possible, in a reasoned debate, than alert).

Not that you argue like that, but your OP did reduce DU to two sides, and ignored the mushy middle.

[LWolf]

108. Eloquent as always.

Thank you for this. Especially the part further down the thread about working to effect long-term change, without seeing immediate results.

It helps.

[La_Fourmi_Rouge]

14. Take a tip from an old hand at this sort of thing:

La souveraineté ce n’est pas
Lorsque quelques un
Arrive au pouvoir
Mais lorsque tous s’opposeront
Aux abus de pouvoir de quelques un.



Sovereignty is not
When some one
Comes into power
But when all are opposed
To the abuse of power of some one.

- Gandhi

[KoKo]

28. Ahh...how those of us who read history wonder how SO SOON

and how FAST Dictators and Emperors could arise again and threaten ordinary folks. Thought we'd move past that. That History and the written word plus EDUCATION would SET US FREE FROM THIS!

Alas it seems the human condition to NEVER LEARN...to never recognize the signals to nip them before they murder and maim and hold others in bondage. So much from the 20th Century that passed on to the 21 st and it seems that with all our mass communications we are no better than primitive cultures who cast bones to read their futures and past.

[Patsy Stone]

19. I am of the second group

and although I understand that the Dems got minimum wage and Katrina money and a bunch of other good for the people things out of this, they sold the soldiers down the river to do it. I also think that if they were going to fold, they could have played at least one more hand.

I don't believe there are enough Senate votes to convict Bush, but there may indeed be enough to convict Cheney. Although I dread to see John Roberts up there presiding.

Peace.

[merh]

20. "The first group talks about 'political reality.'"

I learned a long time ago, you create your own reality.

Why can't the first group recognize that?

IMHO, their position ignores some very simple facts:

More are in favor of Bush/Cheney impeachment than were in favor of Clinton's.

The crimes of this admin are actual crimes against this nation and humanity, said crimes put our nation at risk.

The crimes of this admin have caused deaths.

Each day they remain in office the greater the risk, the bolder they become, the more negligent with our rights.

Clinton's impeachment, despite the low polls supporting it, weakened our party and it was not until 2006 that we could regain political power and even that is flimsy.

Politically and nationally, we cannot afford to sit by and allow the abuses of office. We can't afford not to impeach.

[H2O Man]

22. "We can't afford

not to impeach."

That is the Truth.

[H2O Man]

21. Two groups defined

by Minister Malcolm X:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=znQe9nUKzvQ

[loudsue]

86. Wow, H2O Man....I had never seen those videos before. Just WOW.

Thank you for sharing that link. I was a teenager when Malcom X was leading the movement, and I remember clips of speeches, and some of the news, and much of the philosophy. But going through all those videos of him has reminded me, in a really personal way, about the struggle we all went through back then. It's like it took the FIRE of those times out of the cobwebs for me.

How very similar to the situation we find ourselves in ... still. But how many more "house Negroes" there are now in BOTH parties (Condoleeza, Powell, Harold Ford, Jr., etc.) that have attained positions of power, SIMPLY BECAUSE of the work of people like Malcom X and MLK, who took their struggle seriously. Seriously enough to give their lives for it. To be killed for it.

I had totally forgotten that it was the words of Malcom X that had really lit the fire of patriotism in my soul...patriotism, I'm afraid, for a country we don't have yet.

I've gotta go for a walk.

:kick::kick::kick:

[H2O Man]

89. Malcolm

had a way with words. It is far better to hear him speaking, than to just read those words.

[Gregorian]

23. It is time to separate justice from politics. Even if it isn't possible.

We have witnessed crimes.

I see this invasion from the eyes of an Iraqi. What other way is there to see it? We've been told Al Qaeda is going to attack us. That is more sand they have thrown in our eyes. Are we to look six moves ahead in order to foresee where justice might lead us? This is not a chess match. And this is not politics. I say that to ignore what we have seen, and to ignore what is happening to those who suffer our instruments of war is to do more damage than anything we could possibly fear. Damn the Democratic party. But you know it will survive to be even stronger than it is if we do not do what is right.

They do not hate us for our freedom, but for our consumption. I know that. There is a reality. It is determined by gravity, nerves, and cognizance.

If we do not serve justice now, then when do we?

I want to see (as we all should want to see) the suffering inflicted by our military on those in Iraq to be stopped now. I am assuming that isn't going to happen. And I assume that Bush is going to complete his term, however illegitimate it is. But one of the biggest crimes in the history of mankind has been committed, in full daylight for all to see. And we're worried about how we'll look if we prosecute those responsible?

Where are the prosecutors? If I recall, there is a method for operating in such an environment. It doesn't start at the top.

Some things come to mind when I think of the environment impeachment might create. Animosity toward the Democratic party. Not having sufficient votes in the Senate for conviction. But we do not know the dynamics of the next two years. I suggest that the truth will win the hearts and minds of Americans. We know the truth. There are bombs falling on children. A country in shambles. Great sorrow. And the soul of our very country corroding, whether we know it or not. I do not know the details of impeachment. So I'll say what may be factually baseless. But who knows if we'll have votes to convict in 2009. I assume that impeachment can span elections. Doing the right thing is never wrong. It will strengthen our party. Our country. I say we must impeach. What alternative is there?

[H2O Man]

24. Right.

What situation would create more of a need to use the Constitution to protect our democracy? On another thread, I wrote about when I was young, and would get a "Weekly Reader" with a little "can you find the face in this tree?" Either you see it, or you don't.

[Me.]

25. That's A Wonderful Analogy n/t

[Gregorian]

36. That brings back memories.

I almost feel a sadness thinking upon how happy I was. That little newspaper we got.

I think impeaching will make the Democratic party stronger. I just want to reiterate that. I can't edit my prior post, even though I'm sure you read past my obvious error.

It feels odd to be needing a discussion about impeaching under these circumstances. It should have been automatic. But not everyone has the interest of the country in mind.

Tonight I am particularly stressed. My personal life parallels the political road our country is on. It has been doing that since 1999. It's like the election never ended. I'm wearing out. And so is everyone else who cares. I'm not sure where to turn next. Something tells me life is that way. When you're riding in the ruts don't you complicate your mind. Something like that.

[La_Fourmi_Rouge]

38. Gregorian, my path seems parallel to yours.

I have been fixated on the looming loss of our republic since '99, when I started posting at Salon. It has consumed my life - my emotional life and relationships have gone through an enormous transformation and I have ended my associations with those whom I consider to be in the service of evil.

I am so weary... so damned weary.

[KoKo]

31. When is MURDER WRONG...When are Crimes against Humanity

once again a CAUSE the WORLD WILL TAKE ON? How did we lose our humanity and compassion? After WWII we thought it would never be like this again. After WWI...there were those who wrote in blood...NEVER AGAIN! The war to end all wars...and then the world was off to another one, then the "cold war" then the rest.

War is a human condition. Without wars there doesn't seem to be a need for humans to exist. It's a counterpoint to greed.

We don't work for peace and to build commonality...there are always WARS as a distraction to make fortunes for more who will work for more war.

[EFerrari]

29. Kick

[hootinholler]

30. Being in the second group...

I don't care if Cheney is convicted in the Senate. I care more that the evidence is actually presented in the Senate. I believe that there are few Senators that would vote to acquit in the face of the evidence of all the crimes that we know of, that are already documented, that the public isn't aware of, being publicized in the way in impeachment hearing would present it to the citizenry. It would be political suicide.

The real question is would the media cover it?

-Hoot

[DU GrovelBot]

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[EFerrari]

34. kick

[glitch]

35. Thank you H2O Man, one of your very best. K & R nt

[TacticalPeek]

37. "I'm sick and tired of being sick and tired."

:kick:

[autorank]

39. K*R Is this part of your plan

The quintessential revolution is that of the spirit, born of an intellectual conviction of the need for change in those mental attitudes and values which shape the course of a nation's development.

A revolution which aims merely at changing official policies and institutions with a view to an improvement in material conditions has little chance of genuine success...

Aug Sn Suu Kyi
Burmese Activist

[H2O Man]

41. Four days after he was

assassinated, the Village Voice printed an interview that Marlene Nadle had done with him. It stands out for me as an important part of his message. She asked him about his plans to organize people in the northern slums. As we recall, Martin was able to organize the rural population and the cities in the south, but it was Malcolm who had shown the ability to organize the northern blacks in low-income, urban neighborhoods.

"The only person who can organize the man in the street is the one who is unacceptable to the white community. They don't trust the other kind. They don't know who controls his actions," Malcolm said.

Marlene asked if he was saying that he planned to use hate as a tool to organize the slums?

"I won't permit you to call it hate. Let's say I'm going to create an awareness of what has been done to them. This awareness will produce an abundance of energy, both negative and positive, that can then be channeled constructively .... The greatest mistake of the movement has been trying to organize a sleeping people around specific goals. You have to wake people up first, then you'll get action."

Nadle: "Wake them up to their exploitation?"

Malcolm: "No, to their humanity, to their own worth, and to their heritage. The biggest difference between the parallel oppression of the Jew and the Negro is that the Jew never lost his pride in being a Jew. He never ceased to be a man. He knew that he had made a significant contribution to the world, and his sense of his own value gave him the courage to fight back. It enabled him to act and think independently, unlike our people and our leaders."

I think that it is no coincidence that what Malcolm said was essentially the same thing as is expressed by Aug Sn Suu Kyi.

[pberq]

111. "The quintessential revolution is that of the spirit. . ."

Yes. This was Gandhi's whole approach.

Otherwise it is just a band-aid. To get at the root cause we have to go deeper.

[Me.]

40. Moving Fast This Morn

:kick:

[zippy890]

42. kick good perspective

and thanks for your optimism, respect and reason

[spanone]

44. Second Group Member Here....Great Post.

[nam78_two]

45. K&R/nt

[mmonk]

46. You are a great writer.

You keep me busy with recommends.

[H2O Man]

96. You are very nice.

Thank you.

[pberq]

50. Well put, H2O Man!

At times like this the spiritual wisdom of Gandhi and others is so helpful.

[H2O Man]

97. I try to

read Gandhi every day. I keep a book of my favorite quotes, and about half of them are from the Mahatma.

[Annces]

51. Get the cruel leaders out of the White House

Impeach Dick Cheney.

And Stop Illegal Icelandic Whaling



Operation Ragnarök - This is an old Nordic word that means "destruction of the powers." We intend to take our intervention to the land of the Norse - straight to the coast of Iceland - for a confrontation with the outlaw Icelandic whaling operations. We intend to create an international incident over Iceland's refusal to comply with international protection regulations.



http://www.channelg.tv/video.php?project_id=46

[Warren Stupidity]

52. You keep putting it all in perspective for me.

I watched Bobby last night with one of my kids and I tried to explain to him the utter despondance we felt that night, such a brief moment after King was gunned down, how it was so clear to us that all of our leaders were gone, that our position had never been more hopeless, that the forces opposed to us would literally stop at nothing to get their way.

We are once again at the bottom of the pit looking up.

One a separate note I think you have a structural problem in the last paragraph:
"As a member of the second group, I have explained why I do not think those who oppose impeaching VP Cheney and who think funding the Bush-Cheney madness in Iraq will help end it." I think you intended to merge that thought with the sentence that followed "Those are the wrong paths to take, in my opinion."

But who cares? A stunningly good essay my friend. Now where are our leaders?

[bigtree]

53. thing is you've left out the majority of those who are still for an exit from Iraq

despite the view from some that just supporting the passage of a supplemental without timelines is akin to 'supporting the war'.

The most curious is your suggestion, I think, that legislators can't be sincere about their opposition unless they support your open interpretation of some impeachment.

There will be other efforts to include timelines in legislation and all that has to happen to bring the troops home is for republicans to get some backbone and vote against Bus to end the occupation. THEY are the ones in need of spine. Most of our legislators are still in favor of voting to end the occupation by a date certain. The furor over the timeline vote seriously obscures that and is a dishonest representation of the will of the majority of Democratic legislators who are strongly in favor of ending the occupation.

[Warren Stupidity]

54. Keep holding on to that comfort thought. nt.

[H2O Man]

56. I think that

you have missed the point of my essay. But that's fine -- like the "can you see the face in this tree?" puzzle from the Weekly Readers of yesterday, some people will see it, and others won't. Or perhaps it is more like the tests to see if one is "color blind."

In regard to the congress: I'm not concerned if they are "sincere" in their misreading of the their Constitutional duties to control the nation's purse strings. I keep reading even intelligent DUers parroting the baloney about "they don't have the votes to override a veto." Again, unless their has been a Constitutional Amendment that makes the control of the purse strings dependent upon having the votes to override a veto, this is merely nonsense that people have accepted as truth.

There are a number of books and essays that explore the president's personality in complex psychological terms. But for this discussion, I'll keep it plain. He is what we used to call a bully in school. Just a spoiled rich kid that's used to getting his way. He makes threats when he doesn't get his own way. So the "student council" attempts to put limits on one of his demands for money, and he starts with his threats. The student council backs down, gives him the money, and says, "But we will stand up to you in September." Please excuse me for not being impressed by that degree of sincerity.

[bigtree]

59. there are absolutely no guarantees that impeachment or the blocking of the one supplemental bill

would move Bush from his occupation (or many other of his abuses).

There are only the assurances from supporters of such actions. Many disagree as to the effect of those actions. That's not the same as capitulating. It's just that many don't share your view that impeachment or the blocking of funds would cause Bush to withdraw from Iraq. That's the goal many put behind such actions. In and of themselves they may be fine and necessary to hold Bush accountable, but they don't come with the certainty that Bush would bend at all to effect the changes many want. There are even some who believe that impeachment and blocking funding would be, in many ways, counterproductive to achieving a legislative end to the conflict.

[H2O Man]

66. True.

No guarantees that doing the right thing would get the country back on track, just like that. But we can be absolutely sure -- without any chance of being wrong -- that giving Bush his way will exclude the possibility of getting us back on track.

And I agree that there are those who believe that following the Constitution in regard to impeachment would be counterproductive. I think a few of the people who believe this may be democrats. They are, to borrow a quote from Frederick Douglass from August 4, 1857, people "who want crops without plowing up the ground. They want rain without thunder and lightening. They want the ocean without the awful roar of its waters."

In that same speech, Douglass noted that if you "(f)ind out just what people will submit to, and you have found out the exact amount of injustice and wrong which will be imposed upon them; and these will continue until they are resisted with either words or blows, or with both. The limits of tyrants are prescribed by the endurance of those whom they oppress."

I think the democrats in the congress proved Douglass correct. It seems that a lot of citizens feel the same way.

[bigtree]

69. If Congress can produce evidence that crimes have been committed they should act

to appoint an independent investigator in order to bring the charges without a partisan tinge. Impeachment is more than a constitutional process as demonstrated by the Clinton hearings. Due process and rules of evidence can be arbitrarily manipulated by the majority, and, in the end, the vote in a presidential impeachment will be a political judgment - rather than a matter of law - that the votes of those in the majority who voted for Bush should be disregarded and the presidency should end.

By deciding to forgo that extraordinary process, legislators aren't necessarily ignoring their constitutional duties to hold the Executive accountable as there are other substantive levers of accountability which wouldn't rise to the extreme level of impeachment. The impeachment option shouldn't be used as a shortcut to legislating or to taking other actions; which may fall short, but could serve to achieve the accountability mandated by the constitution and their oath.

[EFerrari]

71. Currently, our Congressmen must walk around with both hands

over their eyes NOT to see evidence of crimes. They are violating their oath of office, plain and simple.

My lord. When someone with the integrity of Mr. John Conyers can say we will impeach George Bush at the polls in 2008 when he knows full well WHAT HAPPENED IN OHIO because he collected the evidence, we have a problem, Houston.

[bigtree]

72. you want a lynching, not a constitutional process of accountability.

In order for an impeachment to proceed there needs to be evidence presented in Congress. That process is ongoing in committee. Do you know of any committee which has uncovered evidence of crimes which Bush and Cheney could be charged with? In Conyer's committee, for example. Is he sitting on evidence which would allow and justify an impeachment? He's written up Articles. Why hasn't he proceeded with all of that?

To suggest, as some do, that Congress has all the evidence they need is belied by the recalcitrance of legislators like Conyers who are as committed to holding the administration as anyone. If someone close to the investigations feels like they have the evidence to proceed, they will. Until then, I think all of the talk of 'Congress' having enough evidence is not supported by the reluctance, so far, of committed legislators to press forward.

[EFerrari]

74. I want a lynching? No, I don't. Because that would be exchanging

one crime for another, wouldn't it?

It's clear the party leadership doesn't want to surf impeachment as they prepare for 2008. And even conscientious public servants like Mr. Conyers are caught up in the goals of short term political expediency.

We will regret this decision, bigtree. Think about all the criminals in the Bush government that are only still here to wreak havoc, destruction and death because they got a pass under Reagan, for example. These decisions may yield something for progressives in the short term. In the long term, they degrade our Constitution, our political culture and our national discourse.

[bigtree]

78. I really don't think the leadership can hold back an impeachment

which comes from evidence produced in committee. I suspect, neither does Rep. Conyers.

[EFerrari]

81. But that argument is not based in fact but in committee politics.

And so in party politics. Around we go.

[H2O Man]

83. Death & destruction ....

I saw a poll this week that indicated a majority of young American Muslim men believe that there are times when violence is an acceptable tactic. I am not taking a position on if that poll was accurate or not. But it did remind me of part of Martin's speech "A Time to Break Silence." He lists his reasons for speaking out against the war in Vietnam:

"My third reason moves to an even deeper level of awareness, for it grows out of my experience in the ghettos of the North over the last three years -- especially the last three summers. As I have walked among the desperate, rejected and angry young men I have told them that Molotov cocktails and rifles would not solve their problems. I have tried to offer them my deepest compassion while maintaining my conviction that social change comes most meaningfully through nonviolent action. But they asked -- and rightly so -- what about Vietnam? They asked if our own nation wasn't using massive doeses of violence to solve its problems, to bring about the changes it wanted. Their voice hit home, and I knew that I could never again raise my voice against the violence of the oppressed in the ghettos without having first spoken clearly to the greatest purveyor of violence in the world today -- my own government."

I think it holds true today, as well. It seems strange that anyone could accuse you of advocating a lynching, when you are clearly saying people should be held accountable for their actions. If we do not follow the law, how can we say we are against lawlessness?

[bigtree]

88. I used the wrong word. I don't need a lecture on it.

I just don't believe the impeachment process is as pure as the intentions of those who advocate it may be. It is a constitutional process, but it is carried out by politicians who are able to define and determine by a simple majority what evidence is allowed and what is not. The politicians will bring whatever motivations they have into the process and the constitution allows that. That makes it an inherently political confrontation, despite the motivations and expectations of advocates.

[H2O Man]

90. You might note

that my post was directed to sfexpat2000. Interesting that you view it as my lecturing you.

Your mentioning the evidence being entered indicates that you have issues with the process of impeachment. But, as you say, the Constitution "allows" it. But you are still suspicious about people's motives for advocating impeachment for people such as Dick Cheney.

I do agree that it's not a lecture that you need.

[bigtree]

93. I did mistake that. Not so 'interesting'.

where did you get the stuff about being suspicious about impeaching Cheney? I've posted here before that I thought that would be the best route. If you read my posts, you can see that there are avenues where I believe an impeachment would be necessary and effective. Kinda too quick to put me in a little box there.

Sorry about mistaking the direction of the post. Silly really for me to be so defensive, but I understand that the word, 'lynching' doesn't apply.

[EFerrari]

98. bigtree. we are on the same team. It may be that to you

my work to impeach or to end the war seems hasty or even detrimental to the Democratic Party.

All I can say is, coming from a long line of Democrats, it would be very hard for me to purposefully do anything that harms the party. Very hard if not impossible.

But there are some things that are more important than party or, some things that are important for the party to notice. Like crimes against humanity. Like a public breach of one's oath of office. Like continuing to fund a brutal occupation.

We can do better than that

And, it's not that I'm unaware of the negotiations our Dems must walk through to manage their slim majority. Not at all.

It's more that we need leadership on very basic issues and that leadership is nowhere right now.

Where is our leadership? Where are the liberals standing up for our values? And, what are we doing if not upholding our values? We are the real "values" voters -- not the ghosts Rove tried to plant to cover his election fraud.

What is our political calculation? A political calculation is already many steps removed from the life of the electorate, of real people. This "war" is killing real people. There is nothing philosophical about it. There is a time to stand up for your people and sometimes that group is the human race, not a slogan or an icon or a magnet.

We can do better than this.

[bigtree]

104. I happen to see the actions of the leadership as credible

and reasonable, given the odds and alternatives. And, I don't see our opposition as waning. I think the furor has obscured the continuing opposition that our party is engaged in against Bush. I just don't see how holding back one supplemental represented such a challenge to that opposition. The timetables, which were the integral part of the legislation, still remain with the majority of our Democrats still in favor of them.

Our leadership said from the beginning that they wouldn't hold up the funding just to effect their politics and they kept their word. But, the issue of an exit date still stands.

I think we could have presented the same bill over and over all summer, to the same effect. So, I just don't agree that continuing to hold up the bill would have been significant in our debate or make Bush do anything differently.

As for impeachment, my concern is that we have to ask ourselves whether that action would be in line with our other priorities to the extent that it doesn't severely distract from those priorities and actually accomplishes its own stated goal. Right now, the issue is being presented as an abstraction as if we could just pull the charges from the network news and plaster them on a document; case closed. But I see the process as difficult to wield and unpredictable. I'm concerned that the process could actually distract from a congressional focus on Bush's occupation without forcing an immediate end. I also don't believe that the process will be seen as credible if it is initiated on a strictly partisan basis. That's why I advocate initiating a presidential impeachment on the results from an independent investigator/prosecutor who could bring charges outside of the political arena.

I'm not at all confident that we can succeed in a procedure to remove the president or his vice, even modestly, in a proceeding which is half-cocked and strictly partisan. Politics is more than just gaining some superficial advantage. It's about acting in a manner which will ensure public support across the board, because the objections will be heard, not only from within Congress, but from those citizens whose votes we intend to disenfranchise with our prosecution.

I really appreciate your sharing your views with me and I apologize for my inflammatory characterization of your advocacy.

[EFerrari]

110. It's been a long week. I hope next week is a better one.

peace

[H2O Man]

106. Right.

We're all on the same team. Bigtree is one of my favorite DUers. We see things differently. That's a good thing.

[EFerrari]

102. I have in mind, just right there, a vision of America.

We don't lynch each other or accept sundown towns. Our blood has already fertilized this earth, enough already. And Miss Rosa Parks still speaks to us.

We don't send our children out to be killed for profit and then call their killing a sacrifice when it's murder.

We don't let each other drown or starve or thirst and then blame a three or four lettered bureaucracy.

Because we can do better than that.

[H2O Man]

82. While I recognize

that sfexpat2000 is better able to state her position than I am , I would like to respond to the part about her wanting a lynching and not a constitutional process of accountability. It brings to mind Malcolm X's old saying about if we listen too closely to our enemies, we will be carrying an umbrella on a sunny day, and getting soaked when it rains. Let's look closer:

Impeachment is by definition a constitutional process of accountability. There are numerous issues that could be discussed here, from Gonzales to the spying on citizens. But I'll stick with Iraq, as that is the issue that sparked this thread. There is plenty of evidence that indicates the OVP engaged in a coordinated effort to present false "evidence" of Iraqi WMD; to cover-up evidence that indicated Iraq did not have WMD; and to punish those who dared challenge them on their lies. As a result, this nation is engaged in an occupation of a country, and we are paying a terrible price. Our soldiers are being wounded and killed. The war is sucking huge amounts of money from the economy. And Iraq is paying a greater price than the US.

The people in what I called "the second group" believe that there has never been a case more deserving of impeachment than this. We believe that this is exactly what the Founding Fathers intended when they included impeachment in the Constitution.

To call that a "lynching" seems curious, at best. The Constitution advocates impeachment as a process of accountability. It does not advocate lynching. An abuse of the law in the past allowed one group of Americans to lynch members of another group of citizens. Likewise, an abuse of the law allowed the republicans to impeach Bill Clinton for purely political reasons. That was, of course, a political lynching.

Hopefully we are all able -- and willing -- to identify the significant differences between Clinton lying about oral sex, and VP Cheney lying our country into war. Anyone who is not able to recognize those differences will, I fear, be carrying an umbrella on a sunny day, and getting soaked when it rains.

[bigtree]

87. to expect Congress to be rational in an impeachment is perhaps expecting too much

If we proceed directly to an impeachment it will need to be for something specific. All of your arguments speak of crimes and abuses, but we will have to judge any effort on the evidence produced and also the reaction to it which, I predict, will be over the top. Once the political body begins their investigations and the prosecution the process will not resemble the adherence to law as you say you expect. The prosecution and defense of the presidency will be a political reflection of the participants and their motivations. To assert from the outset that the process, which has its parameters outlined in the Constitution, is going to produce 'accountability' is a stretch.

If you take, Iraq, for instance, there would need to be evidence presented which goes beyond the back and forth which has already occurred on that subject with most of this membership. We really can't expect a successful prosecution on an issue that Congress hasn't been able to successfully grapple with legislatively. There needs to be a process outside of the body where charges are brought in a manner which doesn't carry the tinge of partisanship that would be seen as originating from the majority. To disregard the political influences which would affect any judgment of the removal of the president, and assume that the 'law' would prevail on some prosecution initiated on a partisan initiative is terribly naive and misleading. The instant that the charges are brought, there will be a hardening of opposition; not only within the body, but, also from without from citizens who don't feel like their votes should be second-guessed by the opposition party. There needs to be a careful presentation of evidence, not just a summary rehashing of concerns that legislators couldn't account for through the many levers short of impeachment that are available to them.


And, too much made of the lynching remark. It was a poor choice of words on my part.

[H2O Man]

91. You said it.

And you accused another DUer of advocating it. I do not think my responding to that is making too much of it.

[bigtree]

94. It was a mistake to use it. Happens all the time. Doesn't apply, don't really mean it.

I take it back.

See, too much.

edit: Would be nice if you actually addressed my argument.

[Martin Eden]

92. Thanks you for the Douglass quotes

I had heard them before, but they hadn't come to mind for quite some time.

So very pertinent now.

[formercia]

60. Well said.

A few fat dossiers full of 'personal' information on key Members helps too.

[Me.]

55. National Impeach Cheney Poll

http://www.usalone.com/cheney_impeachment.php

[H2O Man]

57. Thank you. n/t

[Gregorian]

63. That gets a vote from this member.

Thanks.

[donkeyotay]

58. Thanks for another insightful post, H2O Man nt

[ninkasi]

61. Thank you, H20 Man

I'm in the second group right along with you. A path is easier to follow with friends taking the same path with you. The path doesn't get overgrown, and the way is made smoother.

[ClayZ]

62. group 2 to group 1,

they are bombing babies and nearly 4000 of our young soldiers are dead.

What is it you do not understand about the term "Illegal War of Aggression"?

How many deaths will it take till you know, that too many people have died?

Shame on the Congress! Shame on us, for not shutting this country down with a STRIKE!

The garbage man comes, the school bus goes by, the mailman fills the mailbox with bills and junk mail, and our grown kids plan which festival to attend for the weekend. Life goes on, here, while "slaughter" in our name continues in Iraq. Why is it the golden rule no longer applies?



Shock and Awe has never stopped shocking me.

Shame on our MEDIA for not showing WAR to our people.
Shame on the media for not showing the PROTESTS!
Shame on our Media for not showing our wounded and dead soldiers to our people.
Shame on our media for not telling the truth, aiding in the brainwashing of the nation.
Shame on our Congress for not representing the will of the people.

Get warmongering, heartless, lying, criminals, Cheney and bu$h out of office.

What must the world think, of our GOVERNMENT BY THE PEOPLE?

LET THE PERP-WALK BEGIN!

[H2O Man]

67. Very well said.

If it was a mistake to allow Bush & Cheney to invade Iraq, then it is a mistake to give them the funding to continue to increase the occupation force. And if a person doesn't recognize that it was a mistake to allow Bush & Cheney to invade Iraq at this late date, I do not think they are actually democrats.

[EFerrari]

70. Hundreds of thousands of human beings have died needlessly

because of these sociopaths. There is no way to soften that

IMPEACH THEM..

[Me.]

75. Here's What I Love

When they now say, it doesn't matter how we got there, we're there now and have to think about the future. Excuse me?

[EFerrari]

77. The same argument made no sense to me as a high school sophomore

about Viet Nam.

[H2O Man]

79. It makes sense

only when we recognize that whoever says that clearly has something to hide. A month or so ago, in a thread on the 1972 Democratic Convention, I quoted George McGovern, who said that in order to correct a mistake, one had to examine what led to the mistake.

When we translate that 2007 and Iraq, it is obvious that the administration has an agenda when they say that we shouldn't bother looking at how we got in this mess. And their agenda is to keep their crimes safe.

In fact, if we went in based on purposeful lies, then there can be no solution to the horrors that Bush and Cheney have created, until those lies are addressed. There has to be consequences for elected officials abusing the public's trust. And the most obvious consequence is impeachment: there is no rational argument that can be made that Bush and Cheney are going to resolve the violence they have created, or wind down the military occupation of Iraq, just so long as we forget how we got involved there, and give them unlimited funding.

[EFerrari]

80. It's a stick up, "Stop thinking and give me your wallet."

Our national ADD needs urgent attention.

[Usrename]

85. They are still lying about this war.

Just yesterday (at the "press briefing"), Bush once again stated to the entire "press corps" that Saddam had refused to comply with UN Resolution 1441, hence the need for the occupation.

Once again, no one in the "press" challenged that assertion at all.

Can everyone really be that stoopid?

I know a lot of DUers are big fans of David Gregory, but sheez-louise, he was standing right there, and he was able to quiz Bush on this, and if he won't even bother to notice the GARGANTUAN LIES that are being hurled at the public, then what use is he really?

[Me.]

100. It's Move Along, Nothing To See Here Time

you know the truth can be so inconvenient at times

[ClayZ]

103. Stupid is as stupid does and says!

I think they do not even remember all the excuses they have given for the war. Each press conference contradicts the last. Each word that comes out of their mouths is a bigger bunch of B.S. than the last. They just pile on more ridiculous rationalizations and justifications, none of which has ever made sense! They have brought horror to the world, and attempt wrap it up like a gift. This "I see the INTELLIGENCE reports" ...DUH!

bu$h must have forgotten that we know what he did in the past with intelligence reports. Perhaps someone should give him an INTELLIGENCE test, rather than a report!

I seriously think Cheney is evil and bu$h is drugged.

They must be, our how could they even breath at this point. Any sane person, who had wroght what they have, would be asking for mercy in a Psychiactric Ward by now.

Maybe he is so "Zolofted" that he does not feel or see.

When I saw Cheney with his new grandson, it made me think of all the "Boots" in the "Eyes Wide Open" traveling exhibit that the AFSC puts on display. http://www.afsc.org/eyes/ One set for each soldier dead in this bloody mess. Many had baby shoes next to them, put lovingly their by family members. I guess Cheney and bu$h did not see it.

Argh!

[No DUplicitous DUpe]

101. Really, Really great post, on a great thread by H20man

You said it all, "Shock and Awe has never stopped shocking me." Me too!

[H2O Man]

107. Yes.

That post is outstanding. It sums up in a very powerful way what myself and a lot of others want to say.

[mahina]

65. I am persuaded.

Because my representatives argued against impeachment, saying they could either accomplish a long term Democratic majority for our country, creating those important core Democratic goals like health care, protecting social security, education, etc, OR impeach Bush, I was against impeachment right up until reading this beautiful, reasoned post. Of course I was getting there for a while, but your calm reasoned articulation did the job.
Count one more in the second group. Mahalo.

[H2O Man]

68. If there is a person

breaking and entering houses in a neighborhood, and assaulting people, the police need to arrest that person. The police aren't going to sit around wringing their hands, thinking that perhaps a jury will not convict the thug, and allow him to destroy more people's lives. Well, Dick Cheney is a thug that is causing more damage in this neighborhood we call the United States of America than any burglar prowling the streets of our cities. He's stealing our Constitution, he's destroying our economy for the benefit of his corporate friends, and he's getting our military wounded and killed in a war that was based on nothing but lies.

[caseycoon]

73. Very well said! I agree. n/t

[Ladyinblack]

76. beautifully stated H2O MAN

I do not however feel nice about this situation. I am so angry I am sure it is not good for me. When I think of our young people being harmed and dying, when I think of the thousands of Iraq people who have died,of how we have destroyed their country, it is hard not to be furious.

I want this administration stopped. There must be a beginning.

[Swamp Rat]

84. k&r

[porque no]

95. We must impeach bush/Cheney and we must end this war, regardless

of how unwilling and unable our compatriots are to fight the fight. We must do it without them. Cowards all of them.

[me b zola]

99. Thank you

If the path gets much more grown over, we'll need a brush-hog to clear the way.

[PATRICK]

105. Second group

it has to be recognized that the Democratic representation in Congress is itself divided and not the same way as it is here. That is also the consequence of a generation of GOP fraud and bewildered or purposeful calculation by the survivors. They could do with some awareness of the salient fact that THEy are underrepresented due to the fraud and calculations of others and this needs also to be opposed, not compromised further with. In other words, the actual representation of the WILL of the people is clearly on the side of many issues they move cautiously on and that FEAR, the suppression of fair news creating a
muddled electorate and shear rules power by the Coup, is the obstacle. The rules of the game they play have been fixed, as has the representation by Dem leadership, by falsity and theft. Small wonder then that when they play by those rules with warped...everything... we get these same sorry, deteriorating results.

Does the DLC think ANY legislative "victory" overcoming the obstacles by sheer numbers at the yearly polls- however defrauded- will allow this situation to right itself? This seems the constant underlying delusion of delusions.

One way to get at all of the real obstacles and prevent the occurrence of worse to come at the pleasure of unrestrained ruthless GOP manipulators- while Dems play the rules like some children's auxiliary- is to take on Cheney. Everything else is indeed a waste of time even if successful and the highest obstacle to achieving any of the others is the Gray Dictator, the Puppetmaster self-select himself. All of the truths going begging, the direct focus of each issue, can center on this one power god. And impeachment is an effective way, not merely air sent to the spin chamber and a direct challenge to the GOP to come out finally and say SOMETHING about their bloody all powerful weakest link.

But good men are divided, the party corrupted by compromise and association and denial, and groups like ours divided again in way that is clearer at least than that possible for the truth defrauded, supposedly divided, public at large. It is division and weakness that allows the failed monster Cheney to not be "divided" from his assumption of absolute power and sending truckloads of humanity and its hopes over the cliff in slow motion, advertised and regular fashion.

This is a time to scream bloody murder, but since the MSM warped discussion is allowed the lead and the masses victim of microphone control, the agitated helpless seers of truth take their cue and split. Do we recognize how the "real world" democratic Congress has not been shaped or allowed to surpass the level of sucker, victim and its own numbers more blindly divided than truth entrepreneurs like us? No monolith or revolutionary Congress was elected in full numbered representation of the people, blinded as they are like Sampson. We have to recognize we are asking them to move their own "reality" toward blunter truths and then empathize because even here bewilderment and caving and differing wisdoms paralyze the obvious need in favor of the controlling lie.

[snappyturtle]

109. K&R Having been flamed by group one not long ago I am

reminded of my very personal reason for wanting impeachment. My reason is that at the end of my life I don't want to be asking myself, "What if?" What if we had tried to impeach Cheney? To not impeach is to surrender to the dismantling of the constitution. We may fail....but we must try. It's the best example of democracy we can show the world.

As if anticipating the moment we find ourselves in today some very wise men penned the Constitution. I marvel at their ability to project situations where impeachment would be imperative! We should be very thankful for the Constitution's careful construction and instruction.

[lonestarnot]

112. Me too.

[La_Fourmi_Rouge]

113. This is the most important discussion on the board.

The evidenciary list is enormous! For anyone who can't keep it all straight in their memory, let me offer you the charges, in condensed form, that sane, concerned citizens have against Cheney and his minions:

Hugh's List

Personally, I am apalled that the American populace has not risen up in unbridled outrage.