We Are Headed for a Massive, Fatal, and Complete Collapse within the Next 8 Years

[Yavin4]

I know. I know. Another doomsday prediction. It's just that in 2002, I predicted a collapse by 2006. I was off about a year early.

So, now, I'm predicting another bigger and fatal collapse, one from which we won't recover for a generation or more. Why? Simple. Believing in myths has become the norm. Instead of being rejected as nonsense, myths are now the "political center".

We crashed in 2008/09 because we believed in debt and housing valuation myths. Go back and read commentators from 2002-2006. They all said, "housing always goes up in value", and "don't worry about mortgage resets because when they come, you can sell your house for a profit". Or, "the people don't need savings because of their housing valuations".

The crash of 2008-09 should have awoken us to these myths and re-launched a new era of truth. Instead the myths persist:

Myth: Wealthy people create jobs
Myth: We can fight two wars, cut taxes on the wealthy, and balance the budget
Myth: Outsourcing and globalization create more jobs here than we lose overseas
Myth: We can have an entire economy based primarily on consumption
Myth: There are plenty of jobs out there for the unemployed
Myth: The housing market is on the rebound
Myth: Social Security is responsible for our debt problems
Myth: Private for profit health insurance is the most efficient method for delivering healthcare services.

There are plenty others, and the sum total of believing in these myths is that they inevitably lead to a crash because public policy and personal choices are made based on them. Thus, when the truths emerge, e.g. collapsing housing valuations, it leads to widespread panic and collapse. Sadly, it doesn't really matter who gets elected president nor who controls the congress. The myths have become institutionalized.

What can you do to protect yourself from the impending mega collapse? You have two options: (1) flight or (2) fight.

(1) Flight - you can start making plans now for living abroad. You can either start the process of navigating the immigration policies to Canada or Europe or Central America or even Asia. I would start now before the panic where everyone will be looking to live abroad. I know it's difficult, but which is more difficult, emmigrating to another country or trying to survive economically in a country with 45% UE, no safety net, and engaged in three wars in the Middle East.

(2) Fight - you can choose to stay and fight. You can form small pockets of collectives where you rely on each other for food and shelter. You could think about forming these collectives around plots of land where you can grow and cultivate your own food.

Whatever you choose, just know that another mega collapse is coming, and it will make the 2008-09 collapse look like Christmas.

[Poboy]

1. Myth: We elected a Democratic president and congress.

Myth:They are fighting for our interests.

[villager]

2. +1

n/t

[Yavin4]

3. Agreed

Neither political party gives a damn about the people. They exist solely to raise money from corporate donors to pay for campaign consultants. Sure, there may be a politician or two that actually cares about the people but they are marginalized and used only as window dressing.

[CoffeeCat]

64. Absolutely...

..and the "real" politicians who actually do care, have absolutely no power. They'll allow
Dennis Kucinich to give a few firey speeches from the House floor, to give some sort of
illousion that Progressive interests are represented. However, no one who isn't part of
the corruption and crimes--has any power whatsoever.

Game over people.

[Individualist]

7. +1

[Dinger]

11. Oooh, That's For Sure (nt)

[Smashcut]

22. +1

[closeupready]

28. LOL - sure seems that way.

n/t

[The Doctor.]

31. In the way that an abused spouse 'fights back' by appeasement.

I was desperately hoping they would deliver, but the establishment is entirely owned by the greedy few.

I still believe that Obama wanted real change, but when he got to the WH, he found himself in a Devil's bargain. If he wants to eek out even a little good, he has to allow the PTB to have their way otherwise.

[readmoreoften]

52. +1

[Kablooie]

74. Guess who's going to be the Republican Presidential candidate in 2012?

Might his initials be B. O. ?

[enough]

4. I don't disagree with your prediction, but I think if will be much harder to find a functioning

country in the next 8 years than you think. This collapse is going to be global.

[Yavin4]

5. True, But You Do Have 8 Years to Locate One

I prefer a non-name brand country like Costa Rica or Luxembourg, some place without a huge population. Some place that can weather the storm better than others.

[CTyankee]

35. Oh god, tell me how I can live in Luxembourg!

Iknow it has the highest per capital gdp in the world but I attributed that to the fact that there are lots of bankers there...so I figured it was a wealthy enclave. Am I wrong?

[Yavin4]

37. They's Also Big In Telecom As Well

There may be some IT gigs out there. Also, Luxembourg is small, 500K people. That's a good size for a nation. They may weather the economic shit storms better than most countries.

[CTyankee]

38. The thought of being able to live right in the middle of western europe,

where I could hop on a train and get to fabulous cities with incredible art, architecture and food, excites me. However, I am too old to do much about it...

But if I had a chance to live there I would go in a heartbeat...

[Mojorabbit]

56. I agree. We will take everybody down if we go

I have thought about it and if there is unrest globally I am not sure I want to be somewhere where I am the foreigner.

[Uben]

6. Except there was no collapse

That part was narrowly avoided avoided by swift actions of the FED. So your prediction wasn't off, it was WRONG! And your prediction of another collapse is most likely ....the same. You doomsayers are all the same, the end is near, the sky is falling, but when it doesn't happen, you make excuses and do the same damned thing again. Why would I believe someone who was wrong the first time?

Go sell your snake oil somewhere else. I aint buying!

[Yavin4]

12. There Was No Collapse in 2008?!?!

So Bear Stearns and Lehman didn't fall? So Merrill Lynch, Wachovia, Countrywide, etc. all didn't get bailed out by other banks. No TARP. No 10% UE? No Dow falling to 6000 in March 2009?

None of those things happened?

Your post perfectly illustrates my point about why collapses happen: people love to lie to themselves.

[Dogtown]

30. Self-induced myopia.

You'd rather "buy" a bright, shiny future. You'll be disappointed.

[postatomic]

33. Wal-Mart must be having a sale on Rose Colored Glasses

I'm not a doomsayer but I'm fairly certain that we haven't hit rock bottom yet. Are we living in the same country?

I won't make excuses if I'm wrong. I want to be wrong. I fear that I won't be. So, cuddle up in your Snuggie and read your 'feel good' statistical BS. I'm preparing for the worst that is coming.

[ret5hd]

63. Well, you must be one of those that kept your job.

[Pacifist Patriot]

65. Where have you been for the last two years?

[walldude]

73. Wow that is like the 10th

"I got mine so fuck you" post I have seen in two days. Nothing collapsed at my house so there was no collapse. Do you have any idea how high the actual unemployment rate is? (Around 20%, 1 in 5 Americans are without jobs) Do you know how many people have lost their homes? How many have lost their retirement? How many people are living in tent cities, or living underground? How many are on the edge surviving on unemployment benefits and food banks?

You call the collapse of these peoples lives "snake oil" because your life wasn't one of the ones that went down in flames. It's a sad state of affairs, and one of the many reasons we are in this situation to begin with. A total lack of empathy.

[meow mix]

8. washington is no place for fighting!

its a place for hugs! lol
:grouphug:

[slackmaster]

9. LOL! How many times in the last 50 years have I heard that one?

I can't even begin to count them.

[postatomic]

34. Try. To count them

Can you list them for me? Over the last 50 years? I'd guess that you're in your 70's. Please bless us with your life experiences. Try. Try to count how many times you've heard that.

Thank you
:hi:

[slackmaster]

42. I'm 52. Talk of nuclear annihilation was constant for the first 30 years I remember.

Compared to that, even the various impending environmental disasters that have been identified beginning in the early 1960s seem almost trivial.

We had duck-and-cover drills every week when I was a young child in school. There was an air raid siren in my neighborhood that had been there since World War II. It got tested at noon every Wednesday.

Until some time in the mid-1980s, every major airport in the US was constantly patrolled by doomsayers wearing sandwich boards and handing out pamphlets that explained in detail how the end was coming soon.

Throughout history there have always been people saying the end is near. They've always had some kind of evidence that seemed compelling, at least to them; and every one of them has been wrong so far. The Jehovah's Witnesses and other religious groups have called it repeatedly, and often managed to reform after what should have been embarrassing failures.

I watched Glenn Beck one night last week. His guest was some gold bug clown trying to explain the impending collapse of the US economy at the hands of the Chinese. Beck is another one who will probably turn out to be wrong. A millenialist on the left sounds no different than one on the right, if you simply abstract what they are saying.

Forces beyond your control are in charge!

You are being systematically lied to at every turn!

In the next world, you're on your own!

Prepare yourself!

It may already be too late!

There are kernels of truth in all of these just as there are in partisan politics and even stereotypes of groups of people, but overall it's all bullshit, IMO.

[postatomic]

54. The 'Heavens Gate' mentality will always be out there

I appreciate you taking the time to respond.

The Cold War was pretty much a hoax. I never bought into it much. I remember the beginning of this very well. The (then) Soviet Union never had near the nuclear capacity that our government wanted us to believe.

Many of the eco-environment predictions did come true and "we" still ignore what we are being told today.

I have never watched Glen Beck except when Jon Stewart would show a clip of him. Actually, I watch very little TV and don't listen to any talk radio anymore.

I'm not the kind of person who wraps his head in tin foil and stands on a soap box in the middle of a park preaching that "the end is near".

You see, if you look up the definition of Depression you will find that we are in one. You can only use the word Recession so long before you have to start using the Depression word. Our economy is being held up with a very thin string. We no longer have a capitalist system. It has been destroyed. For capitalism to succeed there has to be competition. If company B makes a better widget then company A will follow. Now company A justs buys or takes over company B to eliminate the competition and any need to build a better widget.

Now we just want cheap widgets.

We are bulldozing down entire Cities. Rural America is vanishing with the wind. Our violent crime rate is rising. There are many parts of this country where the Police are afraid of going in. Banks are not helping Small Business anymore. The suicide rate is climbing. Our eco-system and environment is in constant decline and peril. The American Dream is dead. As the baby boomer generation is in full retirement mode and putting a burden on our medical system it's not going to be pretty. I could go on but I don't have the time to write an essay.

I know what I see and hear in the real world. I don't let other people dictate how I think. I'm not looking into some crystal ball.

You can choose to wear blinders. That is your right. I see the decline today and nothing is being done to change it. If you're sick and no one helps you - you just get more ill and can die. It's fairly simple. Not a complex thought.

Peace

[whistler162]

70. In the last week on this board - +100 times!

Remember that Jesus Christ returns in May of 2011.

Same basic, or more precise lack of, thought process going on. Trying to perdict a unperdictable event.

[cbdo2007]

10. Myth: We are headed for a massive, fatal, and complete collapse within the next 8 years

ha ha ha hahahahahahahaha

We're going to be just fine, trust me. More "end of the world" stuff here and just as uninformed as every other economic discussion here on DU.

[Yavin4]

14. Okay

I've had arguments in the past on DU about similar things

http://upload.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=986336&mesg_id=987312

[kctim]

13. Why worry so much about it?

A lot more credible and sensible prediction says the world will end in Dec. 2012. WAY before you're 'collapse.'
Might as well live it up.

[Cali_Democrat]

15. K&R

[jwirr]

16. Option 1 is not much of an option. As we have seen this thing is world

wide and effects all nations. Some nations are better at addressing the problem but they are all having economic problems.

[cali]

17. apocalyptic predictions are foolish

and no, I don't need to either fly or fight.

OK, if you posted your earlier prediction here, please link to it. I'm betting that what you predicted is essentially what you're predicting here- a complete and total societal collapse. And guess what? Should that occur, the societal collapse will almost certainly be worldwide and not limited merely to this country.

And I already live in a place that should this occur is set up pretty well to survive it.

Will it happen? It's possible, but when is the question. Now you did give yourself some room here by not predicting it for next year, but still, 8 years?


I'm more of an end with a whimper person. I doubt a calamitous collapse of this country within 8 years, just a steady, dreary march downward.

[HereSince1628]

18. Thanks for the advice. Here is some in return...

Turn off the TV. Quit watching survival shows.

[Scurrilous]

19. K & R

We're doomed!!1!

:cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry:

[Speck Tater]

20. K&R Why has reality become such an alien concept to people these days?

The American empire is already sliding into eventual oblivion. That train has left the station and there's no calling it back. Unfortunately, most of the rest of the world is on the same track since technology is the product of cheap energy and cheap energy is going away forever, and eventually taking technology with it.

[Yavin4]

24. Reality Forces Us To Make Tough Decisions

Takes us out of our comfort zones. We don't want to give up our cars. We don't want to modernize our transportation systems. We don't want to pay a higher tax for energy which would allow for the development of alternatives. Etc.

It's easier for us to comprehend myths rather than confronting the truths because myths are like comfort food.

[cali]

21. you live NY, NY?

as you believe this could happen anytime, hadn't you best follow your own advice?

[Yavin4]

23. I Followed My Advice in 2002

I paid off my debts by 2006, and when the collapse happened in 2008-09, I was unemployed at the time. Yet, I survived for 2.5 years without working a full time job, and now I am employed full time.

I am looking into moving and working abroad.

[bvar22]

27. We also "Cashed Out" in late 2006 - 2007.

I'm glad we listened to those predicting the Banking/Wall Street/Property Value Collapse.
I tried to tell my brother about the Property/Mortgage Bubble.
He wouldn't listen.
He got burned, and is still burning.


We chose option 2.
So far, so good!


Note:
My Wife & I are NOT "survuvalists, and pray a "crunch" does NOT happen.
That would just make things harder for everyone, including ourselves.
We are just Old Hippies who are attracted to the Sustainable/Green/Independent Lifestyle.

[lfairban]

51. Good for you.

When the market crashed a couple years ago, I told my financial advisor, who had a bad addiction to rose colored glasses, that the funds that I had kept in my personal control were only 10% in the market.

"When someone who says that he wants to be able to drown the government in a bathtub is not laughed out of DC, but becomes a major leader of his party, it is time to get real cautious."

Keep the faith brothers and sisters.

[Mojorabbit]

57. I did not cash out

even though I read a gazillion things that said a crash was coming and why. I just could not believe it could really happen. I did buy some gold way back though which has helped mitigate what I lost. I am looking for some land further out from the city as I don't think the area I am in would be pleasant if all went to hell. Meanwhile I make my garden bigger and plant more fruit and nut trees. You do need a community to thrive and there is a lovely transition/slow food movement beginning here. I think as soon as growth starts, oil prices will soar and throttle it.

[galileoreloaded]

25. Third option. Start marketing security options to Canada and Mexico...

to keep the greasy Americans OUT!

Dolla-dolla bills ya'll....

[Warren DeMontague]

26. widespread panic?

Love those guys.

[spin]

29. This sounds like a liberal version of a Glen Beck show ...

the sad part is that I seriously believe that your analysis is accurate.

My family has been considering moving from our small town into the country and attempting to get off the grid using solar and wind power. The idea of planting a garden as a source of food involves a lot of work but the quality of the food is far superior and cheaper than what you can buy at the grocery store. The area of the country where I live has a large deer population and is infested with wild hog. Both are tasty when prepared correctly, and many people find the taste once again superior to store bought meat. Hog can be hunted year round.

When I grew up, my family had a large garden and we raised corn, potatoes, tomatoes, cucumbers, lettuce, radishes, melons, and peas. We had strawberries, blackberries, apple trees, a cherry tree, a pear tree and grapes on the property. My mother canned and the food lasted year around. I didn't realize how lucky I was. I used to hate weeding that garden.

We were far from wealthy, but I never suffered hunger or felt deprived.

My daughter already has learned to can food and I've found the food she's canned in far superior to what the canned vegetables from the super market.

[Dogtown]

32. The citizens of every Empire

have scoffed at their own downfall.


America's greatness has been sold to grubby merchants.

[lukasahero]

36. Unfortunately, since the depression is likely to be global

flight's not much of an option either...

[Poboy]

39. kick

[robertpaulsen]

40. Your prediction dovetails with Alfred McCoy's projection of collapse in the 2020s.

Very informative article, projecting http://www.tomdispatch.com/post/175327/tomgram%3A_alfred_mccoy%2C_taking_down_america">four different scenarios that could precipitate an early end to the American Empire.

[glitch]

41. Within 8 years? That's a lot of wiggle room. Closer to which end of that?

Just curious.

I listened to a very interesting radio show this afternoon, Against the Grain. They had Neil Smith, author of "Uneven Development" on. He said neoliberalism was dead, but still dominant because nothing is on the horizon to take its place yet. I don't think that's necessarily true, just the ideas that are bubbling up haven't hit mainstream yet. See my sigs (I am going for option 2).
He said right now neoliberalim is being propped up mainly by the US. Like Weekend at Bernies (he didn't say that, I visualized it).

Here's the audio if you're interested.
http://www.kpfa.org/archive/id/65867

[NickB79]

43. Myth: America can build enough renewables to compensate for Peak Oil

Another nail in the coffin of global economies will be expensive energy costs hammering any attempts at economic recovery. The rate at which we are building renewable energy infrastructure isn't even close to enough to compensate.

[wildbilln864]

44. **k&r! nt

[Posteritatis]

45. Imminent death of civilization predicted, pt. CLXXVIII. (nt)

[DearAbby]

46. K&R

nothing more to add but deep sadness in agreement.

[NickB79]

47. I think it's telling that no one has tried to correct you on your myths

But instead just dismiss what you say as fear-mongering, apocalyptic hyperbole by saying that previous people have made similar claims before that didn't pan out.

It's as if they think we can survive indefinitely as a nation despite all the truths you pointed out. Talk about heads in the sand.

[Odin2005]

48. I see a lot of snark against the OP but no rebuttal of his points.

[cbdo2007]

50. No need to argue specific points, he's correct on all of them.

The argument is over whether or not this will lead to a catastrophic collapse of our economy. Finance people say it won't, alarmists on DU say it will multiple times a day.

[cali]

60. what points? the op is making a prediction.

[rucky]

49. Flight!

I don't even know this country anymore.

[defendandprotect]

53. Can't argue with what you're saying...but have a large problem with theory of

"collapse" --

What went wrong in this crash -- as we've seen many times before -- is elite manipulation

of markets -- and in this case Bush/Obama bailing them out with tax payer dollars -- i.e.,

capitalistic crime on top of capitalistic crime.


We also know that for over two years now neither Obama nor the Dems have made any more to

restore NEW DEAL rules and regulations on capitalism. In other words, we do not have another

FDR on our hands fighting the Robber Barons. PLUS we have the trade agreements continuing to

suck jobs out of the US and Obama making even MORE trade deals! And with the effects of the

stimulus fading, many expect another 1 million jobs to be lost.


The true response to this most recent crime wave has been nil -- very much like the lack of

response to the S&L thefts and embezzlements which were followed by more theft from the

pockets of the American taxpayer and no only a rare prosecution of the criminals involved.


The overturning of the NEW DEAL regulations was purposeful -- designed to do harm to Americans

and the economy for the profit of the few and it succeeded.

Act III -- Obama then brought the very individuals responsible for the fiasco into this

administration -- those who had profited from the crimes -- and those who then blocked any real

remedy that would help us.


Re this advice ... I'm sure there are many of us who would like to leave --

but I have no recent experiences with this -- I'd like to encourage my kids to think

about it but so far no discussion of it by them. I would like to know from others, however,

who may be trying to get out how this has worked for them -- or whether their kids are

discussing it?

What can you do to protect yourself from the impending mega collapse? You have two options: (1) flight or (2) fight.

(1) Flight - you can start making plans now for living abroad. You can either start the process of navigating the immigration policies to Canada or Europe or Central America or even Asia. I would start now before the panic where everyone will be looking to live abroad. I know it's difficult, but which is more difficult, emmigrating to another country or trying to survive economically in a country with 45% UE, no safety net, and engaged in three wars in the Middle East.

(2) Fight - you can choose to stay and fight. You can form small pockets of collectives where you rely on each other for food and shelter. You could think about forming these collectives around plots of land where you can grow and cultivate your own food.

Whatever you choose, just know that another mega collapse is coming, and it will make the 2008-09 collapse look like Christmas.

[Sparkly]

55. I think they WANT this. It's called "Starve the Beast."

They'll start bludgeoning the government until the only hope is for multi-national corporations to buy up parts of the country's interests -- not that they haven't already, but I think the structure of it will have to change.... And workers here will have to take a lot of sacrifices to level out with what big business gets from overseas labor.

Hey, look what they've managed to convince people is in their best interests now!!! Working for slave wages under terrible conditions is no stretch at all. (Patriotism; fear; scapegoats; "the alternative is worse," etc.)

[jeanpalmer]

58. Think Ireland, Portugal, Greece

and debt peonage to banks and foreign lenders.

[harun]

67. We are in the same situation as them, we are just printing money

which they can't, to stave off (temporarily) the issue.

[PerpetuallyDazed]

59. Interestingly, I've become more focused on cataloguing my "survival skills"

This has happened in the past year. And I'm not the only one; friends around me (we're in our mid-20s) have felt compelled to do the same; taking up an interest in canning food, gardening, building shelters. It's almost creepy. Being city types, we're sorely lacking in many of these skills our grandparents and great-grandparents took for granted!

On edit: I've also been watching "The Colony" which may have influenced me a bit. ;)

[4dsc]

61. Its about PEAK OIL folks..

For those that refuse to see the light at the end of the tunnel and why we are going to see a collapse of our society its because we don't have the resources to keep it going.

[Pacifist Patriot]

66. I think it's a combination of things, but all comes down to control of resources.

Peak Oil
Potable Water
Land

Available clean water is going to be a much bigger problem than most folks realize. You can ostensibly subsist in the dark and the cold, but try living without water.

[stuntcat]

69. water yes

:scared:

[stuntcat]

68. yep

it's adorable all the rest of the crap the monkeys will spend all day thinking of.

[MilesColtrane]

62. No

[mcollins]

71. Isn't that what the right claims the President is trying to do?

and now- they make sure it will happen!

I am so pissed off.

[Life Long Dem]

72. Is there any compromising on this?

:patriot:

[Sirveri]

75. Cuba would probably be a good choice.

Especially if we get some smart folks who know how to build wind farms there.