America: The most religous-stupid country EVAH!

[BlooInBloo]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/03/01/AR2007030102073.html

"The United States is the most religious nation in the developed world, if religiosity is measured by belief in all things supernatural -- from God and the Virgin Birth to the humbler workings of angels and demons. Americans are also the most religiously ignorant people in the Western world. Fewer than half of us can identify Genesis as the first book of the Bible, and only one third know that Jesus delivered the Sermon on the Mount.
...
The condition Prothero describes in Religious Literacy is unquestionably one manifestation of a more general decline in the public's cultural and civic knowledge. According to polls conducted by the National Constitution Center, only one third of Americans can name even one of the rights guaranteed by the First Amendment. Is it any more startling that only one third can identify the preacher of the Sermon on the Mount?

A 2005 survey by the Pew Forum on Religion and Public Life found that nearly two-thirds of Americans endorse the simultaneous teaching of creationism and evolution in public schools. How can citizens know what creationism means, or make an informed decision about whether it belongs in classrooms, if fewer than half can identify Genesis? No doubt the same proportion of Americans think that Thomas Edison said, "Let there be light."

Approximately 75 percent of adults, according to polls cited by Prothero, mistakenly believe the Bible teaches that "God helps those who help themselves." More than 10 percent think that Noah's wife was Joan of Arc. Only half can name even one of the four Gospels, and -- a finding that will surprise many -- evangelical Christians are only slightly more knowledgeable than their non-evangelical counterparts."

Genius.

[LynnTheDem]

1. More than 10 percent think that Noah's wife was Joan of Arc.

Oh my God...! Please don't let the rest of the world read this! They already laugh at how deeply ignorant Americans are. How bloody embarrassing.

[dave_p]

4. That's horrifying

Everybody knows it was Magna Carta

[LynnTheDem]

5. LOL!!!

:rofl:

[sam sarrha]

9. it was the damn Floride they put in the water...

[jhrobbins]

18. Are those the same Carta's as Jimmy and Rosalynn?

[dave_p]

26. I think they were Noah & Magna's kids?

Er, doesn't the Bible say something like that?

[Cobalt-60]

27. Maggy ran a baudy house in Runnymeade

[Maraya1969]

97. Oh no. It iwas Betsy Ross. Especially in this here America.

[Clark2008]

6. I'm hanging my head in shame. Seriously.

How did we get so stupid in this country?

[AllieB]

10. Defunding of public education

and the influence of idiot agendas like 'Intelligent Design' replacing subjects that students need. We are falling behind in so many ways that we're on our way to becoming a nation of service-industry workers. I figured that the religiously-insane would at least have a working knowledge of the Bible.

[Mythsaje]

22. They prefer faith to knowledge...

Belief is, apparently, enough to live on.

[whopis01]

30. How can you possibly defund public education?

There ain't no possible defunse for it. I don't see how anyone can defund gubmint money going to publik skools. I didn't need no gubmint edukashun and I turned out good.

[neoblues]

60. TV

[SemperEadem]

63. I was watching an interesting lecture on C-SPAN History yesterday

and it was by a senior writer at Salon (her first name is Michelle) who wrote a book on how the fundamentalists organized themselves to take over school boards, public education and basically attempt to rewrite known history and they've been doing this work for the past 30 years, which is why they have been able to put in place the glaringly ignorant policies over on the unsuspecting public, how they've put over the mindset that it's ok to hand over your rights--you don't need them anyway. I've got to get more info on her book and go buy it.

Basically, she answered your question by saying it has happened because over the course of the last 30 years, millions of xtians have raised their children under the toxic influences of Falwell, Robertson, Dobson, et al--churches have been taken over by this radical ultra-conservative/political movement and their pastors have been given marching orders from places like the American Family council and other lobbying groups based in Washington on what political messages to drive home to their congregations.

Instead of towns having secular social areas for residents to congregate and interact, like a town square, Megachurches have sprung up in their place and they offer the same things--Starbucks, bowling alley, McPoison's, Smorgasbord-style troughs--so that now, religion is the industry driving the economy of a particular town.

Children have been inculcated with this bastardized version of religion and those children have grown up and are now having children of their own--many of those adults have been raised with the notion that their parent's generation was wrong about questioning authority; that they are to show complete subservience and to not think for themselves because God doesn't want them to be smart and to think for themselves. If one has been taught that from the cradle, they will never believe otherwise.

The one way to hitch them up is to ask them "is incest against God's law?" and if they answer "yes" then ask them "how did the world become populated if it only started with 2 people? Did their children have sex with each other?" and if they say (as my fundamentalist mother did)"God allowed it in those circumstances", then the response is "then God is not constant and never was. He does change his mind and his word; therefore, he is inconsistent" or anything else they want to say about his word never changing. Leaves them spinning in place.

What's even worse than sad is the fact that they say they believe in Jesus, but cannot name the 4 gospels which are where Jesus is supposedly quoted.

Oh, yeah, and there is some creationism museum in either Ohio or Kentucky with an exhibit which states man used to ride triceratops. Now, being that a rhinoceros is the closest thing to look like a triceratop, when was the last time any of you have seen some one walk up to a rhino and climb on its back for a ride?

[blondeatlast]

66. I read an article years ago about that. It was pretty easy for them

since no one pays attention to school board elections. They were trained (according to that article, I think it was from Mother Jones) to simply evade any question of policy--and it worked.

I used to say these people's Bibles left out the book of Matthew, but I know i'm wrong now. They probably have gorgeous, leather bound, gold leaf bibles with parchment pages--but they've never opened it in their lives.

[Clark2008]

67. But you would hope that some of these people would, I don't

know, actually read the Bible.

I've read it (minus all the "begats" - I hate those parts) at least four, possibly five, times in my 37 years. It's a very interesting book (minus all the "begats") whether one is Christian or not. Heck, I've read the Qur'an and the Torah, too - they served to strengthen my own faith - but I digress.

The OP quotes how stupid we are in religious matters, not just in public education. I can fully understand how public education dumbed us down.

But wouldn't you expect that a church - even a megachurch - would encourage one to read the Bible?

Ridiculous.

Oh - and those creationism museums make me laugh my head off. If we lived with dinosaurs, mankind would never have evolved. We would have been lunch.

[Warren DeMontague]

12. Wasn't that a joke in "Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure"?

That, and "Caesar was a salad dressing dude"

[BrklynLiberal]

31. That is the part that made my jaw drop too!!!!

What a bunch of blithering idiots. No wonder we are in so much trouble..

I believe that the vast right-wing conspiracy has been trying to undermine public education in this country for decades. We are now seeing the results of this movement.

[hfojvt]

46. 10% is not that many

put the other way almost 90% know better than that. And one difficulty there is that Noah's wife is not named in the story. How was the question asked? "Noah's wife was Joan of Arc, true or false?" and over 10% took a guess because they have heard of Joan of Arc.

Still, I blame the schools because 3 HS grads I talked to just last week, including a National Honor Society member, could not name even one member of SCOTUS.

[BrklynLiberal]

71. I heard recently about one "poll" that showed something like 30% could not name the V.P.

of the US!
The upcoming generation may contain some geniuses, but I am frightened that the vast majority are ignorant zombies.

If I can find the link to this study, I will add it to this post.

EDIT: I found it.
http://www.jhu.edu/commencement/speeches/brody.html

When asked to identify the three branches of government, one in five American adults responds with Republican, Democrat and Independent. Thirty- five percent of those polled think the United States Constitution makes English our official language. Nearly a third of Americans polled can't name the vice president of the United States.

But maybe these numbers are not quite as shocking as they first appear. In a free society, people can choose not to know. It is a luxury a wealthy and technologically advanced country affords its citizens. Yet we need to ask: how much 'not knowing' can the world afford?

Consider for a moment the headlines and news stories of the past year alone. In December Iran held an "International Holocaust Conference" largely for the purpose of denying the Holocaust ever happened. In Japan the Prime Minister claimed there is "no evidence to prove coercion" of the women forced into sex slavery by the Japanese army during World War II. At the International AIDS conference in Toronto, South Africa's health minister questioned the science of AIDS treatment and promoted a diet of garlic, lemon and beetroot as a viable alternative to anti-retroviral drugs now in use. Here at home, the Environmental Protection Agency ignored the advice of its own scientists (and an expert advisory panel) that fine-particle soot in the air be reduced as a proven human health risk. Next month, outside Cincinnati, the $25 million Creation Museum will open featuring a diorama of Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden.... happily co-existing with dinosaurs, whose fossil remains must be accounted for in some manner. Meanwhile, a recent Newsweek poll found 39 percent of those surveyed believed the theory of evolution is "not well- supported" by evidence.

We must all beware the very real and understandable human tendency to ignore or subvert facts, and findings of science, that discomfort us for reasons of ideology, politics, religion or personal taste.

This willful ignorance is not a simple matter of people just having the wrong facts. Science constantly gets it wrong, as for instance when I was in medical school, and was taught that peptic ulcers were the result of stress and too much stomach acid. Then in 1982 two Australian scientists announced peptic ulcers were really caused through infection by spiral-shaped bacteria. It was many years before the medical establishment fully accepted this theory — and if you had a peptic ulcer during this time, I'm sorry, you probably suffered needlessly until someone thought to give you antibiotics.

[JoePhilly]

110. Imagine how many think there were Dinosaurs on the Arc . n/t

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

2. I've always known I was in a minority in the US

because I don't care for sports or shopping or pop culture in general. But I thought that, just perhaps, most Americans would know a bit about civics and religion! Guess I'm wrong about that.

[Mythsaje]

14. Pop culture I know...

More or less. I can name literally hundreds upon of songs and artists, TV shows, Movies, actors, etc...etc... sixties, seventies, eighties, nineties music...

Couldn't give a rat's ass about sports. Know a little about baseball, but that's because I can tolerate watching it from time to time. Easy to read a book and watch baseball at the same time, after all.

Course, I can read a 300 to 400 page novel in a couple of hours. Sometimes I forget what kind of advantage that is. Add that to a VERY well-exercised memory, and my brain can regurgitate reams of generally useless information at will.

The Holy Babble is a bunch of dreck to me, but if one believes that, one must actually know something about it to justify the belief. The faithful don't have to KNOW anything. Pathetic, really.

[Warpy]

24. most prefer ignorance, I think

because knowing Jesus said they were supposed to give everything to the poor to be able to follow him, well that's just plain inconvenient! And how are they supposed to love their neighbors? The ones next door have TATTOOS and ride Harleys!

It's much better to be narcotized by a weekly recitation of the Jesus myth without any of that teaching stuff to distract from it plus being given a laundry list of people it's OK to hate, even though if they ever read their bibles they'd know Jesus didn't mention any of them.

It's so much easier to go through life thinking Sodom and Gomorrah were husband and wife and that the Bill of Rights was part of the old USSR's constitution.

After all, if they knew better, they might have to DO better.

[Cobalt-60]

35. yeah, you'd expect a bible thumper to

have at least read the book.

[Bluzmann57]

3. "...evangelical christians are only slightly...

more knowledgeable than their non-evangelical counterparts". No surprise here. I was raised in a christian household, not an evangelical christian household, but follow the ten commandents, etc, and I'd be willing to bet a lot of money that I have a better understanding of what the bible "teaches" than around 99 pct. of evangelicals.

[orleans]

21. i just watched jesus camp the other night and was typically horrified

one of the things that got me was a mention (on the commentary part) of a book that is used to home school kids on the history of america--and that it was founded as a christian nation, and the founders were christian.

what the fuck are these freaks teaching their kids?

[Critters2]

41. When I've worshipped at Evangelical churches,

I'm always struck by how little scripture they actually use in a service. My tradition uses a call to worship based on scripture (often a Psalm quoted word for word), an invocation making reference to scripture--often with a quote--, three scripture readings, hymns that quote scripture, and a children's sermon based on a biblical story of some sort. Our sermons are expected to be an exposition of one or two of the texts read that day.

In contrast, Evangelicals will sing about 20 minutes worth of praise songs (a few of which quote scripture), read one passage of scripture, and the sermon will be loosely based on that text.

So, I'm always amazed when they claim they're biblically-based and we're not. How would they know? They never read the Bible?!

[mark414]

57. video proof!

http://www.boingboing.net/2006/06/17/ten_commandments_con.html

[durrrty libby]

7. Yep, we got no shortage of stupid. If only cars could run on it

[Mythsaje]

8. It's totally ironic that you pretty much have to actively disbelieve it

to know a damn thing about it.

I have all the religious conviction of a piece of toast yet I would do far better than most who took that survey.

Then again, I'm more than literate.

Amazing, that.

[Arugula Latte]

13. I know someone who has nothing but utter contempt for Christianity, yet

he could tell you more about the Bible, and quote it, than the most evangelical of preachers.

[Mythsaje]

17. I know a host of pagans

who know the bible better than most self-professed "Christians."

I know some of the technical details, that the OT God was a flaming prick, and that Jesus might have been onto something, but that too many of his alleged followers have very much use for him in this day and age.

Any more than that, I don't need. I attended years of bible study as a kid, of my own volition, and finally, as a teenager, came to the conclusion that no one actually knew more about the origin and nature of the universe, in that respect, than I did. And all the seeking in other areas ever since hasn't proven otherwise, though I do have at least some nodding respect for Taoism and some versions of Buddhism, though I think denial of the validity and value of the physical world is a bit of a mistake on the part of the latter.

I am, and will probably remain, a dedicated skeptical humanist with pantheistic leanings. If there is any such thing as "God," we, as intelligent beings (and hopefully not the ONLY intelligent beings), are the only conscious expression of "God."

And anybody who tells me that they've got an inside line on anything more is most likely selling something I can't afford to buy.

:)

[mrcheerful]

11. I found this the most disturbing

It is less surprising but more dangerous, given America's role in the world, that the public knows even less about Islam, Buddhism, Confucianism and Hinduism than it does about Christianity and Judaism. As Prothero notes, President Bush repeatedly declared that "Islam is peace" in the months after 9/11, while the prophet Muhammad was called a "terrorist" by the Rev. Jerry Falwell. "Who was right?" Prothero asks. "Unfortunately, Americans had no way to judge."

As well as these points Prothero makes.

As the author rightly notes, teaching about religion -- as distinct from preaching religion -- is not prohibited by the First Amendment's ban on "an establishment of religion." But given the failure of so many schools to inculcate the most elementary facts about American history, it is hard to imagine that most teachers would be up to the task of explaining, say, the subtleties of biblical arguments for and against slavery. Furthermore, a curriculum that would meet with the approval of Catholic, Jewish, Muslim, Protestant and nonreligious parents would probably be a worthless set of platitudes.

Prothero movingly calls on Americans to reconstruct the "chain of memory" that once made the acquisition of religious knowledge as natural as breathing. But religion is no longer the air we breathe, and it is doubtful that schools can accomplish what parents and congregations cannot or will not in a society where people read fewer and fewer books of any kind -- including the book they consider the word of God. ?

[Sukie1941]

19. About reading.....

Recently all fifteen new libraries in Jackson County, So. Oregon were closed, and it appears none of them will reopen anytime soon since voters refused to approve a new property tax levy.

In addition, George Bush vetoed the first Iraq spending bill which had tagged on it renewal of federal timber payments for many locations in the US, including Jackson County.

And Josephine County next door to us failed to pass its sheriff's ballot measure and is in the process of giving pink slips to dozens of employees and cutting jail beds down to a mere 30. The people decided to purchase guns and take shooting instruction instead.

So, Josephine County is taking what is left of their monies that fund their libraries, closing the libraries in that county also (except for one reading room), and using the library monies to add to the sheriff's coffers.

About reading.....many many letters to the local newspaper editors talk about how the internet has placed libraries as unnecessary. I have never read a whole book on the internet. I don't think most kids can even read anymore. The letter writers think that the school libraries should just stay open. Hmmm, what kind of adult books do they have in school libaries?

[Mythsaje]

20. I take some heart in the realization

that it's the generation between mine and the Harry Potter generation that suffers this lack. The most recent crop of kids seems to be far more literate than the one before it, partly because of J.K. Rowling, I believe. And not only her, but the authors of the Magic Tree House books, and the young author of Eregon, and of so many other successful Y.A. books.

Then again, my generation pretty much started the trend. I knew that I was going to school with a bunch of semi-literate apes at the time. I don't, however, think it's permanent or universal. Thankfully.

[El Supremo]

15. And this allows some people to believe that Noah had dinosaurs on his arc.

?

From the new Creation Museum in Petersburg, Kentucky.


I thought they all perished in The Flood. These people can't even get their own story straight. No, I don't believe that the story of Noah and the flood is literally true.

[melody]

16. All countries (all social systems) have an equal number of morons

They just express themselves in different ways. Anyone who thinks differently is merely exposing his/her own
biases. You shine your light on the elements that prop up your biases.

Please take a look at the methodology of those HIGHLY suspect polls before you cite ANY of those indications.

[mark414]

34. true, but

americans are fucking morons

[Cobalt-60]

37. I get to go to Southern Missouri this week

I was accused of sorcery there once when the natives saw me parallel park in one try.

[melody]

39. If you truly think that, it's just the result of your own biases

It has nothing to do with reality.

[mark414]

40. reality: i live in america

and interact with many americans on a daily basis

trust me, there's a lot of idiots out there

[spoony]

47. reality: many of us have been outside of America

and have encountered idiots in other places.

[melody]

51. reality: I live in America, too

I interact with just as many, if not more, Americans on a daily basis who are far more informed about other
things about which I know nothing -- farmers who know agriculture, teachers who know about early childhood
education, all manner of things. That they don't know the things you think they should know does not make
them "idiots" anymore than your ignorance of things they know about means you are an idiot.

When we want to believe we're bigger and smarter than everyone else, we define a standard which we call "the best"
and compare ourselves to it. Funnily enough, it looks just like us, be it white, black, male, female, American,
British, etc, etc.

In the words of Kris Kristofferson, everyone seems to need somebody to look down on ... if you can't find anyone,
then help yourself to me.

But that determination still ONLY exists inside your mind.

[mark414]

54. a person is smart

but people are dumb, panicky and irrational

half this country doesn't believe in evolution. a majority of americans can't name THREE supreme court justices (even though 2 of them were just added and all over the news in the last couple years). christ i could go on and on.

the questions asked in the poll were very straightforward...there's one right answer and a lot of wrong ones. it is troubling when a large number of american adults do not know basic information about the country in which they live. it is troubling when a large number of american adults cannot do basic things like multiplication, division, christ even addition or subtraction. when less than 10% of this country reads every day. when 62 million people are too dumb to see the writing on the wall and see through the obvious lies and bullshit and re-elect george bush.

have you been on a college campus lately? jesus christ! these kids never should've made it past middle school!

great! so bill knows how to fix a car. but he's still a fucking moron.

[melody]

55. If that's what you need to believe, you believe it

>half this country doesn't believe in evolution.

I have seen no viable study that comes anywhere near that number.

>a majority of americans can't name THREE supreme court justices (even though 2 of them were just added and all over the news in the >last couple years).

Again, cite your responsible study source. That sounds like a broad exaggeration and misinterpretation of a limited pool study.

[mark414]

56. okay

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/10/22/opinion/polls/main965223.shtml

http://www.livescience.com/health/060810_evo_rank.html

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2006/08/060810-evolution.html

http://company.findlaw.com/pr/2003/062003.scotus.html

http://politicalhumor.about.com/b/a/256848.htm

http://www.usatoday.com/news/religion/2007-03-07-teaching-religion-cover_N.htm

i could keep this up for days....

[melody]

59. And if you'll pay close attention to the "source" of information for these studies

... you'll find they keep recapitulating the same pool of ignorance with bad methodology. But that will
necessitate your questioning your sources.

[Nunyabiz]

72. LOL

You were just OWNED and all you can say is "your sources are BS" sorry but he is 100% correct.
Lets try it this way then, YOU cite ANY damn source you want that says otherwise...ROTFL.

That is classic Rethuglican/Christofascist response, get owned and all they can say your source is bias/skewed/BS regardless of the source.
If it were from Faux news I would agree however National Geographic, Live Science, National Center for Science Education are all credible sources.

There are at least 50% of this country that are suffering from severe cognitive dissonance and or just down right stupidity to not believe the absolutely overwhelming evidence of Evolution.
The majority of people in this country are ignorant beyond belief.

[BlooInBloo]

74. Any source that disagrees with that poster is BY DEFINITION a "bad source"...

... You can't win, by linguistic fiat.

By god Americans are stupid.

[melody]

77. No, you're incorrect, but your Alpha primate instincts are showing lol

"Owned"? I thought only submental adolescents said things like that.

Look, it would require about six years of education in statistical data collection and analysis for you
to grasp my arguments. It's not my job to inform your ignorance. If you don't know enough to question not only the outcome of the poll but the collection methodology itself, there's no way to teach you that on a message forum. You'll continue to believe the polls you emotionally want to believe in and dismiss the ones you don't. Intelligent people are supposed to question our prejudices -- prejudice is rooted in emotion. Take a hint from that.

[Nunyabiz]

80. Give it a try

I worked as a Marine Biologist for Scripps Inst. for 22 years I think I can handle it.
I question everything but when poll after poll after poll all basically come to the same conclusion then you have to take it seriously.

[BlooInBloo]

81. Not if it disagrees with what *that* poster feels in his/her gut. Duh.

[melody]

88. Not my job

Inform yourself. Why would you believe any study without knowing the mechanics behind it anyway?

Bigotry and all forms of prejudice are the result of ignorance and irrational thinking. It's no more
correct to be bigoted against Americans (and there are plenty of anti-American Americans) than it is to
be bigoted against French people or gay people, etc.

The American-haters are nothing more than the flipside of the "freedom fries" morons in freeperville.

[Nunyabiz]

94. I am informed

it's you that is not.
I am bigoted against idiots is all.

[melody]

104. LMAO!!!!

Next time try "what you say is rubber and glue, it bounces off me and sticks on you". It at least
has a certain playground bonheur to it. :rofl:

Anyone who makes sweeping, generalized statements about a group of people based on their own negative
emotions is a bigot. Bigotry is not merely morally wrong, it's intellectually wrong as well. That
rationality protects all groups of people, not merely the ones you like. This is the case whether
the target of outrage is any generalized group including Africans, Asians, gays, and everything else up
to and including Americans.

It's that very prejudice that distorts the collection method of these polls, just as "The Bell Curve"
was doomed to racist myopia from its very premise. If you don't have the simple intellectual rigor
necessary to question methodology, I don't know what else to say to you.

Welcome to my ignore list.

[Nunyabiz]

106. Like I said I am bigoted

but only against idiots. Glad to be on your list.

[spoony]

78. That category includes you

based on your inability to discuss anything civilly, your clear prejudices that do not merely colour but outright create your worldview, and your penchant for idiotic teenage slang.

[Nunyabiz]

83. Teenage slang

and I'm 49 years old BTW is about the only thing stupid enough I could think of to say that fit such a ridiculous post.
Yes I am unable to discuss anything "civilly" with people I consider to be idiots. Being civil gets you nowhere online and I'm fed up with trying anymore so I just tell it like it is.

[Rex]

23. SERIES!!11

Yeah! America #1! USA! USA!

[Hissyspit]

25. There was a very good article in the Journal of Higher Education a couple of issues ago on this very

thing. I'm not at home right now, so I can't dig it out, but it was written by a religion studies professor. I'll see if I can find a link.

[eppur_se_muova]

28. We need to spend more time playing "Barrage of Bible Questions"!

[JoePhilly]

111. Here's one, "Why aren't Dinosaurs mentioned in the Bible?"

You'd think that at least one of these guys would have mentioned a Dinosaur.

[EVDebs]

29. Sorry, but Saudi Arabia and Italy are the real contenders in 'religious stupid' nt

[pink-o]

87. Why would you say Italians are religiously stupid??

...because Vatican City is surrounded by Rome?

Italians happen to be very informed about civics, politics and foreign affairs--just as most Europeans are. Italy's population has declined drastically in the last 30 years, because the women are well educated and regardless of the Pope, they take birth control pills.

Italians are some of the most sophisticated people I know. I understand a lot of the language, and have spent quite a bit of time there. Please explain yourself with that one!

[EVDebs]

89. The inquisition 'ended' in the '60s (1960s). SMOMers make me gag.

Their Will Be Done
http://www.motherjones.com/news/feature/1983/07/willbedone.html

and

The pope who revived the Office of the Inquisition
http://www.counterpunch.com/connolly04052005.html

The fascist mindset began when they started after the Templars. It continues today. No offense but you need to explain this to yourself, then get back to me if you can. Gotta get back underground.

The Saudis, well they've got Idi Amin. Birds of a feather.

[pink-o]

101. Vatican City is not Italy..

...The Pope is the supposed speaker for all Catholics worldwide, so by your logic, French, Spanish, Latin Americans, southern Germans, et al must all be religiously stupid. But you singled out Italians, because why? Geography?

As for Italian fascism, that was 60 years ago. If that's your point, then Germany and Japan should be included in your statement.

I am taking umbrage with your judgement of Italians. They're far more sophisticated than we are in so many ways! And their Gelatto rocks!!!

Personally, I'm an agnostic who looks forward to the day when all superstition is put to rest and we as a species quit living in fear of a boogeyman who's gonna punish us for our sins. But I find Americans with their Wahabeist Christianity to be a lot more scared and scarier than ANY European society.

Jesus, save me from your followers!

[EVDebs]

105. Funny, SMOM isn't a 'country' yet has a seat at the UN. Take all the umbrage you need. nt

[LWolf]

32. Some of the most publicly devout

xtian practitioners have no clue how to live the golden rule, no matter how many times they've read their bible or listened to someone teach from it.

Many people very well-versed in the bible do not have a good background knowledge of any other faiths.

:shrug:

[thunder rising]

33. An Uneducated Population is a Malable Population

Dumbing down public education is not an accident.

[SemperEadem]

65. exactly--which is why being able to read the bible used to be

grounds for being declared a heretic and burned at the stake.

The reasoning went: if one could interpret God's word for themselves instead of it being spoon fed by the church sponsored state, then people would then begin to think for themselves and if they think for themselves, then they will begin to question authority and when they begin to question authority, they are liable to rebel against the church sponsored state. They are "shaking their fists in God's face" and the church cannot have that and still retain control of the state.

It's saying a lot when, as I said in my post above, there are some of these people who cannot name the 4 gospels, yet it's where the man on whom they stake their religion--nay, their soul's eternal life--is supposedly quoted and the quotes are in red lettering. I mean, how far removed from what is germane to their faith can they be?

[MN ChimpH8R]

36. So people confuse Ben Franklin with Jeebus

and think that ol' Tom Edison created the universe. This is really frightening, but not surprising.

The American masses are so unbelievably stupid about core things, not esoterica, but basic things anyone who gets through high school should know, that the term sheeple is too good for them.

Frank Zappa was right: "Hydrogen is not the most common element in the universe; STUPIDITY is the most common element in the universe."

[illinoisprogressive]

38. more dumbing down of America

[momster]

42. I wouldn't say EVAH

Most western nations (if you could even call them that) in the Middle Ages had no public education of any kind. The only people who could read the bible were people -- usually male -- who had been taught Latin in some type of Catholic school, most likely to become monks, priests or take up some other religious calling. Bibles that everyone could read, in the vernacular, weren't being printed until about 1430 and translating the Bible could get you killed in any one of a dozen interesting and painful ways. Therefore, the only way you (Mr. or Mrs. Common Person) knew what the Bible said was by listening to what the local priest said it said. And if he said it says 'burn witches or pay the Pope lots of money to get Grandda out of the bad place' you did it.

Today, at least, the Bible is available to be read. Anyone who takes somebody else's word for what it says might as well go back to plague, flagellation, and kissing saint's bones for a blessing. If you believe in it already, read it for yourself. Take notes. Pay attention. Stop being a sheep.

[BlooInBloo]

82. Thanks for the idiotic comparison class, Mr/Ms Protestant.

[momster]

90. Actually, I'm an Atheist Historian

What's your effing problem?

[Raine]

43. Disagree....some of the ME countries

are much worse. When you have people that fly planes into buildings for religious reasons...that's worse.

[upi402]

44. I thinke "developed" wrold is the qualifier

Saudi is rich but women can't drive and the ME doesn't educate really, and specifically not 1/2 the population -women.

[spoony]

49. How about Dubai then?

Religious, relatively progressive, undoubtedly "developed"--the issue is that people are clearly trying to link religion with stupidity (such a rarity here on DU!) and backwardsness and it's bunk.

[WritingIsMyReligion]

98. I wouldn't put it past the Christofascists to do something similar if they could.

Fundieism is fundieism, no matter what flavor.

[burrowowl]

45. Not only is it the most religious

it also has one of the highest homicide rates in the world, highest poverty rate of industrialized nations, etc. Go figure!?!?

[Nunyabiz]

48. Religion breeds stupidity

"highest homicide rates in the world, highest poverty rate of industrialized nations, etc. Go figure"

Take a look at all of the most religious countries in the world and you will find similar statistics, religion breeds this type of hatred & insanity.

[spoony]

50. A perfect example of the bigotry

practiced by many DUers.

[Jonathan50]

64. I'm a devout :) atheist.. I (heart) Richard Dawkins..

A while back my wife and I went to Bible study classes with a neighbor across the street because we really liked her and she kept asking and asking (12 years worth).

Not only did I match the best Bible reader there, reading out loud from the King James Bible, I knew more about the Bible than any of them.

Not a one knew that the Gospels, Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, were written about fifty years after Jesus the Christ's crucifixion. They were distinctly skeptical when I told them that, so I told them to look it up and let me know what they discovered the next week.

Needless to say, they were rather contrite the next week.

[muriel_volestrangler]

68. Would you like to look at the figures?

Cross-National Correlations of Quantifiable Societal Health with Popular Religiosity and Secularism in the Prosperous Democracies

The United States’ deep social problems are all the more disturbing because the nation enjoys exceptional per capita wealth among the major western nations (Barro and McCleary; Kasman; PEW; UN Development Programme, 2000, 2004). Spending on health care is much higher as a portion of the GDP and per capita, by a factor of a third to two or more, than in any other developed democracy (UN Development Programme, 2000, 2004). The U.S. is therefore the least efficient western nation in terms of converting wealth into cultural and physical health. Understanding the reasons for this failure is urgent, and doing so requires considering the degree to which cause versus effect is responsible for the observed correlations between social conditions and religiosity versus secularism. It is therefore hoped that this initial look at a subject of pressing importance will inspire more extensive research on the subject. Pressing questions include the reasons, whether theistic or non-theistic, that the exceptionally wealthy U.S. is so inefficient that it is experiencing a much higher degree of societal distress than are less religious, less wealthy prosperous democracies. Conversely, how do the latter achieve superior societal health while having little in the way of the religious values or institutions? There is evidence that within the U.S. strong disparities in religious belief versus acceptance of evolution are correlated with similarly varying rates of societal dysfunction, the strongly theistic, anti-evolution south and mid-west having markedly worse homicide, mortality, STD, youth pregnancy, marital and related problems than the northeast where societal conditions, secularization, and acceptance of evolution approach European norms (Aral and Holmes; Beeghley, Doyle, 2002). It is the responsibility of the research community to address controversial issues and provide the information that the citizens of democracies need to chart their future courses.

Journal of Religion and Society, 2005

Correlation is not causation, of course - it's possible that the USA, and the south especially, turns to religion because of the high homicide, STD, youth pregnancy, marital problem etc. rates. Here's an intersting article putting forward the thesis that the USA has developing world religious belief rates (rather than developed world ones) because of the precariousness of life if you're not rich - not quite the same, of course, but there may also be a corrlation between insecurity and the homicide etc. rates:

It is the great anomaly, the United States, that has long perplexed sociologists. America has a large, well educated middle class that lives in comfort—so why do they still believe in a supernatural creator? Because they are afraid and insecure. Arbitrary dismissal from a long held job, loss of health insurance followed by an extended illness, excessive debt due to the struggle to live like the wealthy; before you know it a typical American family can find itself financially ruined. Overwhelming medical bills are a leading cause of bankruptcy.

In part to try to accumulate the wealth needed to try to prevent financial catastrophe, in part to compete in a culture of growing economic disparity with the super rich, the typical American is engaged in a Darwinian, keeping up with the Jones competition in which failure to perform to expectations further raises levels of psychological stress. It is not, therefore, surprising that most look to friendly forces from the beyond to protect them from the pitfalls of a risky American life, and if that fails compensate with a blissful eternal existence.

The effect can be more direct. For instance, the absence of universal health care encourages the utilization of faith-based medical charities. The latter, as well intentioned as they are, cannot provide the comprehensive health services that best suppress mortality at all ages. But charities extend the reach of the churches into the secular community, enhancing their ability to influence society and politics, and retain and recruit members.

Rather than religion being an integral part of the American character, the main reason the United States is the only prosperous democracy that retains a high level of religious belief and activity is because we have substandard socio-economic conditions and the highest level of disparity. The other factors widely thought to be driving forces behind mass faith—desire for the social links provided by churches, fear of societal amorality, fear of death, genetic predisposition towards religiosity, etc—are not critical simply because hundreds of millions have freely accepted being nonreligious mortals in a dozen and a half democracies. Such motives and factors can be operative only if socio-economic circumstances are sufficiently poor to sustain mass creationism and religion.

http://www.edge.org/3rd_culture/paul07/paul07_index.html

[spoony]

76. Those are not figures, those are interpretations

that are largely critiques of certain theological aspects, particularly creationism, and have nothing to do with the intelligence of religious people, which number in the billions on this planet.

[muriel_volestrangler]

84. The figures are in the article

Many graphs showing the correlations.

[spoony]

92. No, it doesn't

The approach of Greg Paul is thus:

1. America is the most religious developed country (A highly western-biased predicate with its own problems).
2. Other countries that show less of the population believe in God are better than America in numerous ways.
3. Paul concludes the reason is religion.

There's literally nothing in the article supporting the contention that it is a contributing factor to the country's problems, let alone that it is the PRIMARY cause, that leap of logic which allows him to pin all America's problems on religion, as he does in this passage:

"If the data showed that the U.S. enjoyed higher rates of societal health than the more secular, pro-evolution democracies, then the opinion that popular belief in a creator is strongly beneficial to national cultures would be supported. Although they are by no means utopias, the populations of secular democracies are clearly able to govern themselves and maintain societal cohesion. Indeed, the data examined in this study demonstrates that only the more secular, pro-evolution democracies have, for the first time in history, come closest to achieving practical “cultures of life” that feature low rates of lethal crime, juvenile-adult mortality, sex related dysfunction, and even abortion. The least theistic secular developed democracies such as Japan, France, and Scandinavia have been most successful in these regards. The non-religious, pro-evolution democracies contradict the dictum that a society cannot enjoy good conditions unless most citizens ardently believe in a moral creator. The widely held fear that a Godless citizenry must experience societal disaster is therefore refuted. Contradicting these conclusions requires demonstrating a positive link between theism and societal conditions in the first world with a similarly large body of data - a doubtful possibility in view of the observable trends."

Basically this argument boils down to "if religion was so great why does America have so many problems," totally ignoring any other possible contributing factor. And more specifically that it is America's supposed rejection of evolution that is at the heart of it all. It's a bullshit argument and that's why it didn't appear in a real academic journal.

[muriel_volestrangler]

95. No, it doesn't say religion is the primary cause

In the first article, he says there's correlation - and that the claim by some theists that a secular society would have a detrimental effect has been disproved, by the figures.

In the second, he says that in the US, a lot of people face an uncertain future, due to the lack of government social programmes like a functioning health system available to all. With a worrying outlook in this life, people turn to religion for comfort. It doesn't produce a more moral community (the figures show that), but it does give them confidence for an afterlife.

So, yes, you can summarise the first article as asking "if religion was so great why does America have so many problems?" In the second, he proposes the answer "America has problems, therefore it has religion".

Disbelief in evolution is one of the useful things to look at because it's an indicator of how far someone is willing to let their religion override the modern world. Atheists, agnostics, and all the kinds of theists will say "do as you would be done by" and so on, but it takes a lot of faith to say "I don't care what science says, this book tells me humans were created in the last 10,000 years, therefore that's the truth".

[spoony]

109. And how were those NOT interpretations, then?

Because you rather insisted that they were not. All I see is a clearly biased man playing fast and loose with work that deserves far better treatment than he seems capable of giving it.

[muriel_volestrangler]

112. The figures are in the graphs

There are numbers along each axis. This enables you to see things like the number of 15-17 year old who get pregnant, versus whether they attend religious services several times each month, and many more.

I never said that it consisted solely of figures, with no comment at all. What is 'fast and loose'?

[spoony]

113. It's "fast and loose" because there is no

data showing any causal, or even exclusively corollary, connexion between religion and intelligence, and yet he makes the connexion anyway. That would not be tolerated in a reputable peer-reviewed journal.

All it shows is a broad correlation, and so what that there is? In general, the elites are always less religious because they don't feel any need for divine help, whilst the poor (who are universally less educated) turn toward God--either for money (leading to gross problems with televangelists peddling get-rich-quick theology) or strength to endure. This is no mystery or indication of intelligence either way, it's about NEED. Religion even acknowledges it. The Bible speaks of it in many places.

In short, the bottom line is that nothing this fellow came up with makes even a slightly convincing argument regarding this alleged intellectual gap between believers and non-believers.

[Nunyabiz]

85. Yeah right

Here is a series of very long very thorough research studies over an 80 year period that prove without any doubt that the more religious one is the more likely they are to be an idiot & visa versa.

http://kspark.kaist.ac.kr/Jesus/Intelligence%20&%20religion.htm

It has EVERYTHING to do with the intelligence of religious people "in general", there are always exceptions.

[Nunyabiz]

70. hardly

"A perfect example of the bigotry"

Stating the truth backed with fact is not bigotry, its just the truth.

[spoony]

75. Uh huh, saying that an entire group of people is inferior

isn't bigotry. Well your fellow bigots agree with you anyway.

[provis99]

52. Wanna bet Atheists know more?

I'd match up your average atheist's Bible knowledge against an evangelical's knowledge any day. I'd bet the reason a lot of people switch from religion to atheism is that in fact, they did read the whole bible. Stories about God striking thousands of people with hemorrhoids in their "private parts" and the entire Book of Numbers are enough to make an atheist out of the most religious Christian.

[Nunyabiz]

69. I have studied religion for 34 years

and I am 100% as Atheist as you can get, actually that is WHY I'm Atheist. I guarantee I know more about Christianity than 99% of the so called christians in this country.
I have read the Bible (several versions) 4X, only the 4th time did it make a lick of sense because I learned its true origins and the fact that the NT is in fact just an astrological drama.
Once I placed an astrological template over the story it finally made sense.

The characters in the Bible are all allegorical.

Jesus = The SUN
Mary= Virgo
Joseph= Bootes
John the Baptist= Aquarius
The 2 Fishermen= Pisces

etc. etc.

[spoony]

79. I don't believe you.

It's easy to make such audacious claims anonymously, isn't it? Your problem, though, is that you're trying way too hard. Four times, you say? Sure.

[Nunyabiz]

86. and I could not care less

whether you do or not.

[BlooInBloo]

91. You've "studied religion for 34 years" and only read the bible 4 times? ROFLMAO!!!!

Fuck that - I studied Kant for maybe 3 years en toto and read the first critique 20+ times. You're either idiotically loose with what you count as "study", else you're making shit up.

[Nunyabiz]

99. apparently my comprehension is better than yours

and 4X was more than enough to read a hate filled, vile, disgusting book of re-badged paganism.
The main understanding of the Bible and Christianity actually came from Archeology & Sumerian, Babylonian, and ancient Egyptian text of which is where virtually all of the Bible originated.
Reading the bible over & over & over will get you nowhere, but reading after finally knowing its origins and where all the stories came from is how you can understand that Christianity is nothing but re-badged paganism, mythology.
The bible is just an astrological text written in the old Pagan Passion Play style.

Anyone that believes it is anything more is sadly mistaken and anyone that takes it as literal truth is a delusional psychotic.

[BlooInBloo]

102. The sort of person who would make that statement is the sort of person of whom it'd be false.

[Nunyabiz]

100. and BTW "religion" is a MUCH bigger subject than the

Christian bible. Most of the religion I studied was the true origins of that bible, The Sumerian Tablets, Egyptian Text, Babylonian, Chaldean & Gnostic text etc.
There is hardly any original/exclusive text/stories in the Christian bible virtually every Christian tenet is stolen from much earlier pagan text.

[bling bling]

53. It's true. Many churches only recently started asking members to read the bible.

I have some Lutheran family members who had to start going to bible study twice a week. I was stunned to hear them talk about how strange their new assignment was because their church had "never really asked them to read the bible before." These were 70+ year old ladies who have gone to church every Sunday their whole lives.

[Truthiness Inspector]

58. Most prosperous country evah

That's why people flock here. But your post is great fodder for Hannity or Rush...in one of their "why should we elect these assholes who hate this country."

Thanks a ton for your outhouse-full of excrement.

This is a great country, and if you don't believe that, you have no business pretending like you give a shit about this country's future.

Americans are STUPID, right? You wish!

[lonestarnot]

61. too full of McDonald's transfat to read.

[malaise]

62. Want to bet?

:D
http://www.jamaicans.com/culture/intro/religion.htm

[Maven]

103. Maybe that explains this:

2000 against 3.

[theHandpuppet]

73. And here's even more proof...

Here's a commentary regarding that creationist museum, printed in today's edition of the Cincinnati Enquirer...

http://news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070528/EDIT02/705280319/1090
Literal belief in Bible doesn't warp minds

I had to chuckle when I read the guest column "A museum of misinformation posing as science" (May 19). The author would have us believe that technological advances could not possibly come from Christians who believe that God established a logical and orderly universe. He tried to imply that Bible-believing Christians blissfully enjoy the fruits of technology while naively misunderstanding that these conveniences are firmly founded on molecules-to-man faith. Warnings were given for the public to beware of those who take the Bible literally.

<snipping>
No, it is based on solid scientific findings from people like Isaac Newton (calculus, physics), James Clerk Maxwell (electromagnetic radiation), Michael Faraday (electro magnetics), James Joule (thermodynamics), Gregor Mendel (genetics), Louis Pasteur (bacteriology), George Washington Carver (inventor), William Ramsay (isotopic chemistry), Paul Lemoine (geology) and Charles Stine (organic chemistry) who, by the way, were all Bible-believing Christians who believed the literal Biblical account of creation....

<snipping>

I hope Enquirer readers are not frightened by pious anti-creation Chicken Littles, but decide to go to the Creation Museum to see how the Bible supports and promotes science and technology, just as many Christians down through the ages have always known.

Doug Noxsel of Fairfield has a master's degree in industrial technology from Miami University.

Frightening, ain't it?

[PVnRT]

107. Opinion columns are "proof" of nothing

Unless you have many thousands of them saying the same things, so you have a legitimate sample size.

[BlooInBloo]

108. They can still contain corroborating examples.

[cynatnite]

93. I don't know whether to laugh or cry

:shrug:

[WritingIsMyReligion]

96. Yes indeedy.

What a motherfucking shame. So much promise, so much stupidity almost from day one. Anyone who's taken more than a month of American history could tell you that.