Australian pub bars heterosexuals

[Forkboy]

A gay pub in the city of Melbourne has won the right to ban heterosexuals - the first time such legislation has been passed in Australia.

The Victorian state civil and administrative tribunal ruled the Peel Hotel could ban patrons based on their sexual orientation.

The pub's management said the move would stop groups of heterosexual men and women abusing gay people.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/6697469.stm

[HCE SuiGeneris]

1. How do they administer the test criteria?

[Fridays Child]

2. Now, that's a good question!

[Name removed]

6. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Obamarama]

8. Your humor is in really bad taste, ya know?

[mediawatch]

12. any form of bigotry

is in bad taste... ya know

[Obamarama]

17. I wasn't referring to the original story...I was referring to your bad taste in humor.

So what you're saying is a specific type of bigotry gives you the green light to make a tasteless joke?

[mediawatch]

21. you misunderstood

I was trying to make a point. Apparently I was unsuccessfully. Bad joke=bad post.. I meant no malice

[Obamarama]

24. Okay, I believe you.

Maybe I was being a little over sensitive, too. I'm still a little rankled after all the finger wagging around here in light of Falwell's recent death (at those of us who were glad to see the evil bastard gone).

[mediawatch]

27. this for you

:hug:

[Bronyraurus]

86. No, the 1st Amendment gives him that

Sorry I missed the joke.

[Name removed]

44. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[JackBeck]

51. Yay! Another homophobe to add to my DU list.

[jollyreaper2112]

67. How is this homophobic?

That joke was innocent unisexual vulgarity.

As for the original topic here, I think this is a bad idea. Public standards are supposed to cut both ways. If they can legally exclude heterosexuals from the pub, that means that any other establishment can discriminate along their own sexual guidelines, i.e. ban gays. This is the very reason why the ACLU upholds the right of the KKK to prance around in their sheets and act like dicks. If the government or public opinion gets to deny the KKK their right to free speech, then the same standards can be applied to other groups the public dislikes, i.e. gays, blacks, or the dutch (assuming the dutch do anything to piss off the conservatives.)

Now if some frat boys are coming into the place and acting like jerks, the pub owner has a perfect excuse for kicking them out. The police cannot fault them for that. It's no different than if a militant atheist group came into a church on a sunday and started disrupting the service: the church cannot exclude them for being atheists but they can kick them out for acting like dicks and disrupting the service.

[JackBeck]

68. Yes, your joke was vulgar.

It wan't innocent.

And DUers know that it was a pointed remark.

[jollyreaper2112]

84. thank you for speaking for all of DU

I'm sure that they enjoy having you speak out for them, collectively, rather than going through all the bother of expressing how they feel themselves. You are doing God's work (because he's too lazy to do it himself.)

[JackBeck]

94. You're welcome.

I'll admit, I should have said "most of", so I'll give you that.

Oh, and your deleted message speaks volumes.

[ThomCat]

127. B.S.

All your standard means is that everyplace, without exception, has to be open to the bullying of the majority. By your standards, straight white men must be given the oportunity to dominate everyplace that is open to the public.

Most people recognize that the minority needs to be protected from the majority. It's not just a matter of throwing out the people who get obnoxious, but about being outside of the majority's perview and getting away from the majority's dominant perspectives and norms. It's about having a place the members of the minority can call their own, on their own terms, with their own customs and standards.

[mediawatch]

55. oh goodness

just one of those things you have to say, but you know you shouldn't

[Madspirit]

36. There are rules here

...about nasty-assed anti-gay crap. Go read them. Run like the wind. They are spelled right out.
Lee

[Blashyrkh]

80. Swallowing is not a gay term.

And you are well out of line to attempt paint the poster as a homophobe. I'm sure there's something about that in the "rules".

[LostinVA]

47. And how is this anything but offensive?

It isn't.

Ugh. How transparent.

[Sapphocrat]

48. Your post disgusts me. n/t

[JackBeck]

50. I doubt you're big enough. n/t

[flvegan]

56. Bigotry/racism twice in one day? CONGRATULATIONS!!!!!!!!!!

Let me read something back to you:

"I am a bigot. I did something I swore I wouldn't do..."

This IS yours, yes?

Recap:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=987704&mesg_id=987704

[A HERETIC I AM]

13. Ask them if this jacket goes with this tie.

Sorry. Couldnt resist.

[HCE SuiGeneris]

15. only a hetero could wear that...

:hide:

[Cha]

66. Wondering same?..n/t.

[Blue_Tires]

3. banned for their own protection??

took a page from the U.S. playbook

[Clovis Sangrail]

4. wow... talk about an insanely bad idea

didn't they stop to think this could go the other way?
"Sorry, no queers allowed here... heterosexuals only"

[ThomCat]

128. That happens by default in a lot of places.

You're risking serious gay-bashing in many places just by walking in the door.

Having a gay-only place is a very valid way of protecting gay customers, and setting up a safe, supportive environment for gay customers.

A lot of people who mostly look the other way when minorities get discriminated against suddenly get very upset when those minorities try to go off by themselves to be safe somewhere.

[Kingshakabobo]

5. What a terrible idea.

I understand the idea of banning stag parties etc. but why not ban the behavior? I know of a gay strip club in Chicago that specifically bans Bachelorette parties by posting a sign on the door. (err, ah, I've never been there - I "heard" about it from a "friend")

[dsc]

9. It is a great club too BTW

or at least was back in the early 1990's. I presume you are speaking of the Lucky Horseshoe. Yummy, makes my body tingle just thinking of it.

[Kingshakabobo]

16. Actually, I was thinking of Madrigals............

After I posted, it occurred to me that they are closed. I hear the owners retired to Florida???

I used to drop in The Horseshoe once in a while when I was in the mood for a "seedy" drink. I used to live next door on California Terrace.

[Behind the Aegis]

26. They were here in NOLA for awhile.

They opened a club with the same name here in New Orleans. However, despite the guys being somewhat attractive, they were WAY over priced! The local NOLA gay crowd wouldn't support them and they closed after 4 months. And, yes, the owners are in Florida.

[nealmhughes]

52. Evidently amateur night at the Corner Pocket was more for NOLA's taste.

Nothing like a drunken dentist on convention gawking at the lads with missing teeth, meth physiques and blue ink jail house tattoos . . . or so someone told me once. Someone I barely knew. . . yeah. Never been there! Never! And I have never ever walked down Bourbon St. except to get to Galatoire's or the Krystal.

[Behind the Aegis]

74. LOL!

Actually, I think it had more to do with the outrageous prices. Certainly most things in the FQ are expensive, but their prices were just nuts.

[dsc]

28. I was on Melrose

I don't recall Madrigals but it has been awhile.

[Kingshakabobo]

38. It was up in Andersonville on Clark Street for ever.........

Funny thing, now Andersonville is so crowded and popular they closed up shop.

Maybe he owned the building and cashed out on the huge appreciation????? That's what happened to Buddies on Clark - I hear they sold the building for something like a million(plus???) dollars and closed up shop after giving their employees no notice.

[dsc]

41. damn

so much for gay brotherhood. Notice at least should have been given. I can see selling out but man.

[terrya]

11. Well, there's a bar here, Charlie's, that's trying to discourage bacherlorette parties.

They're charging more for cover for heterosexual women who come to the bar for bacherlorette parties than gay customers. They're (the bar management) are putting out the message that these things aren't appreciated.

I don't go out that much to the bars on Halsted anymore. But I can sort of understand why gay patrons wouldn't like seeing things like bachelorette parties in a gay bar.

[Clark2008]

19. Question: Where else can women go if they want to see men strip, though?

I don't know of ANY male strip joints.

Not that I want to go - it's just the principle of the thing. Men have thousands of strip bars to choose from for bachelor parties. Where are women supposed to go? Chippendales isn't always in town.

Do even homosexual men think women "wouldn't support" male strip clubs?

[terrya]

22. Well, I understand your frustration.

But there are gay people who don't like the idea of these kind of parties in gay bars.

There are gay strip clubs who are perfectly fine with bachelorette parties and/or hetero women in attendance. I've seen groups of hetero women in Remington's, a gay strip club in Toronto, for instance.

[Clark2008]

25. I've always wondered.

Back when I was single and I and all my friends were getting married, it would have been fun. I don't have a desire to go, now, but I probably would have "back in the day."

When I have asked people in the business communtiy why my town has three or four female strip clubs and no male strip clubs, I always get the answer that "female patrons wouldn't support it." I live in a college town and think that's a bunch of bunk.

Of course, I don't have the money to start one and find out for myself, but I think a male strip club would be popular with the college women and the gay community here.

[Kingshakabobo]

32. I think it has something to do with the idea..........

............that some patrons of gay strip clubs are there for a "serious strip show" and bachelorette party attendees are there to act loud and foolish and not make the "show" the focus of their attention. I can count on one hand (well, maybe two) the times I've been to a strip club but I can tell you some people take their strippers seriously. I had occasion to be at a club fairly early once and I was surprised at the "fans" that show up early to stake out good seats etc. - not there to drink but to sip water and watch "the show." I never got in to the "shows" so my friends and I would "stop in" when we felt like being "seedy."

I don't agree with it but I think that's where the "attitude" comes from. I guess some "fan" doesn't want someone next to them acting silly while wearing a "penis hat." (I actually saw one of those on a bachelorette party attendee at a non-strip gay club).

[Clark2008]

35. OK - but wouldn't the same be true of the serious heterosexual

fan at the regular strip joints?

There are lots of men who only go to strip joints as part of a bachelor party - and they act just as silly as the women would.

Why the double standard?

[JVS]

39. They can have the party at a house and order strippers to visit

[IA_Seth]

114. As a hetero man...

I don't particularly care for bachelorette parties either dang it!

On a serious note, wouldn't things like this (more cover for straight women) be opening the door to allow other clubs to charge gay men more for cover, etc?

I just think it sets a bad precedent. I understand that some clubs are opened to cater to certain groups of people...gay clubs, biker clubs, hip-hop clubs, etc...but I dont think its a good idea to start restricting access to the groups they cater to.

But then, I havent had to deal with the crap that most gay men probably have to deal with, so my opinion is just that!

[ThomCat]

129. The issue is not always behavior.

If straight people hang out then it's not a gay bar. It's a mixed bar. The atmosphere is very different.

If you're looking to create a place for gay people, where it's safe to be openly gay, where straight standards of sexuality and behavior are not the norm, then you want a place with few or no straight people.

So the issue isn't just behavior. It's also identity.

[Bassic]

7. That's dumb

Though it's got sucks to have to deal with people who don't accepty who you are, this is simply opening the door for them to do the same.

[Edweird]

10. management said the move would stop groups of heterosexual men and women abusing gay people.

That's what BOUNCERS are for.

[EFerrari]

14. LOL! Good for them!

:toast:

[originalpckelly]

18. The problem with this is that anti-gay fuckheads will try and spin this.

There are some situations that might be similar, like a store that focuses on selling Jewish/Hebrew oriented products banning Nazis.

Of course not all straight people hate gay people, while most Nazis do harbor hate for Jews. It's too large a distinction to say all "straight people".

[RB TexLa]

20. Sounds a bit like banning white people from clubs because of what the Klan has done

tough situation.

[Balbus]

23. This blurb out of Australia is a victory for bigots world-wide.

[Madspirit]

30. Screw THAT

You act like we are welcome being ourselves in straight bars. WHAT A CROCK OF CRAP. We have every right to feel safe from bigots and killers.
Lee

[Balbus]

40. Everyone has a right to feel safe from bigots and killers.

Wouldn't you agree? I'll assume you do and proceed.

If the press release said "bar owner excludes gays from entering bar because it makes the heterosexual customers uncomfortable to watch two men or two women kissing," that would be bigotry, wouldn't you agree? I'll assume you do and proceed.

To exclude a certain group of people who can't control who they are (i.e. being straight, gay, black, white, etc, etc) is bigotry. Doesn't matter how the person or persons doing the controlling try to justify the matter, it's still bigotry. You might not agree with that so I won't assume - but I'll still proceed. But...

Maybe you know it's bigotry, but you think it's deserved bigotry. Well, if you hit me with stick on Monday and I hit you with a stick on Wednesday, I assaulted you on Wednesday no less than you assaulted me on Monday. You deserved it, but it's still assault and more people are going to remember what happened on Wednesday than will remember what happened on Monday.

[Madspirit]

42. Go Own Something

The whole reason they enacted the law is because straight assholes were coming in harassing the people. Go own straight behavior.

I am not responding to this anymore.
Lee

[Balbus]

53. I'm glad you agree.

Peace.

[ThomCat]

131. What a load of semantic masturbation.

Straight bars exclude gay people all the time. They just do it unofficially by letting straight people act hostile to gay people.

Most Straight people take it for granted that they're allowed to go anywhere. Most straight people take it for granted that their behavor is the norm, and is acceptable, and everything needs to conform to their expectations.

Straight people need to get a clue that they already have all the other bars, clubs, restaurants and public spaces. We have a right to our own, and we have a right to want to keep straight culture and straight expectations from infecting our places.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

95. No-one has a right to feel safe.

A government should do its best to ensure that its citizens *are* as safe as possible (no-one is ever fully safe), and allow them to do things themselves to make themselves safer that would not be allowed for other reasons, but allowing people to take whatever precautions it takes to make them *feel* safe would be a very bad idea indeed.

I know of no bar that bans homosexuals, and I would very much hope that any one that did would be closed down. However, if bars are allowed to ban heterosexuals then there's no way that the reverse can't also be permitted.

[ThomCat]

130. Absolutely!

People have a right to socialize by themselves, with themselves.

Many of the same people who are all upset that straight people can't go into a gay bar are probably the same people who would be up in arms at how inappropriate it would be for gay people to kiss in public. It see this as a huge double standard. Straight people should be allowed to go anywhere and enforce straight norms at any time, but the rest of us should politely dance around the straight people and try not to offend anyone.

Fuck that. I have no problem with telling straight people to stay out. They have every other bar, club and restaunt. They don't have any need or right to have every last one.

[Madspirit]

29. I don't know what planet

I don't know what planet you people live on but WE are already not welcome BEING gay in straight bars. Jeez. WE want to feel safe. Leave your Bizarro Delusions behind. Please. We should at least have places where we feel like we can be what we are without being harassed, made fun of, beaten up, KILLED.

Hearing straight people whine about a gay bar not letting straights in to HARASS us is about as appealing as hearing whites whine when a black person complains about racism.

One more time:

WE ARE ALREADY NOT WELCOME BEING OURSELVES IN STRAIGHT BARS. WE GET BEATEN, HARASSED, RAPED, KILLED, THREATENED, ETC.

Get over it. Jeez.
Lee

[C_eh_N_eh_D_eh]

31. Rule number one: no non-pooftahs!

</ obscure Python reference >

[bunkerbuster1]

110. Your name IS Bruce, isn't it?

(I got it.)

[Madspirit]

33. LASTLY

Any straight person COOL enough to be allowed in a gay bar would be because YOU WOULDN'T BE ABLE TO TELL THEY WERE STRAIGHT. We don't wear signs and neither do you. It's based on behavior and the article itself, something most of you chose to ignore, was about STRAIGHTS HARASSING GAYS IN GAY BARS. Jeez...sometimes...
Lee

[treestar]

61. But throw out the straights who do it rather than assume all

straights are guilty because some are.

It just doesn't help matters. If straights come in and don't harass, that's good news. Why insulate yourself from those straights?

[Madspirit]

70. Oh Cry Me a River

Do you know what happens to us if we go into straight bars AS gay people? We often end up dead.

Straights have 72 trillion bars to our one and you have to invade that one?

If you're a cool enough straight, no one will even know but if you go there AS a straight, you're not welcome. We're not a zoo. Go gawk somewhere else.

...and one more time...DO YOU KNOW WHAT HAPPENS TO US WHEN WE GO TO STRAIGHT BARS AS GAY PEOPLE? WE OFTEN END UP DEAD.

....72 TRILLIAN TO ONE AND YOU HAVE TO INVADE OUR ONE. Shame on you.

You're not welcome. Deal.
Lee

[Bluebear]

77. I can only imagine who you are talking to. nt

[ThomCat]

132. That "insulation" from straights doesn't exist.

All of society is straight, with straight norms and expectations. We're surrounded and suffocated by straightness, not insulated. A gay-only bar isn't issolation, it's refuge. And there's a lot of good reasons for that kind of a refuge.

[Madspirit]

34. ...and LASTLY LASTLY

It is so very telling how YOU people just ignored WHY they made this law. That is sick and disgusting that you ignored the part about straight people going into gay bars to harass them. ADDRESS THAT!!
Lee

[Laughing Mirror]

37. Is a pub a public place?

By selective entrance the Peel Hotel sounds as if it will be operating as a private non-membership club.

[Madspirit]

43. WHAT REALLY MAKES ME ILL

Almost every single straight "brother and sister" who has responded to this responded with whiny-assed crap about "reverse discrimination". NOT ONE HAS OWNED THE "WHY".

Right from the article:

"The pub's management said the move would stop groups of heterosexual men and women abusing gay people."


...really makes me sick. You haven't even addressed that.

...and just btw...WE ARE NOT WELCOME IN STRAIGHT PUBS AS GAY PEOPLE. JEEEEEEEESUS wept man. What a crock.
Lee

[noamnety]

59. Thank you

An oppressed minority group demanding a safe area from the group that oppresses/abuses them is NOT equivalent to a group of oppressors demanding an area free from an oppressed minority that they treat as second class citizens.

That goes for race, religion, gender, sexual orientation, class issues, whatever.

[Evoman]

45. Kind of reminds me of the whining from men when they aren't allowed into women's fitness gyms.

Christ..why can't people stop their fucking whining about unfairness and take a look at WHY measures like this are taken. Men in fitness clubs make women feel uncomfortable by men oggling them and hitting on them. Similarly, gay men are afraid of, or tired of, scorn from heterosexual people. Why can't we stop our fucking whiney bullshit, remember that we are a majority, and let these people have their goddamn safe zones. Why don't you ever hear about homosexuals going into straight bars and hassling heterosexuals? Why don't you ever hear about women making men feel uncomfortable excercising. Because its almost entirely one way.

Why do heterosexuals WANT to go to gay bars? Aren't there like a billion other bars you could go to?

Why do men WANT to go into womens' fitness centers? Aren't there hundreds of CO-ED gyms you could go to.

Why can't we all fucking grow up.

[Madspirit]

46. Thank-you

Yeah...they all seemed to kind of miss the point about WHY this was done. I mean Jesus fucking Christ, it says right in the article that straights were coming in ABUSING gays. Not one straight has even owned that let alone addressed it. It's all about the whining. For god's sake.
Lee

[LostinVA]

49. Thank you for this post n/t

[Balbus]

54. And why can't blacks stay out of hockey and golf?

Don't they have basketball and football they can go to?

:shrug:

[Evoman]

57. Right bud, because black people enter hockey and gold

to harass white people.

Take your reverse-discrimination bullshit somewhere else.

[ComerPerro]

65. pathetic race-baiting at its finest

[treestar]

64. The issue is that you're giving in to the same type of generalization

you're objecting to. There are a lot of racist whites, but when you assume the worst of everyone in the group because of the mere commonality of white skin - and it's the same here - you're doing the same thing and inadvertently promoting more separation, and from people who would be on your side.

I don't really mind these things and so see why the exist, but I can also see how they hurt the cause - it's just a dumb idea and gives ammunition to the very people who are the problem. Gives them sway with that big mass of people in the middle.

It's so easy to be just based on individuals rather than groups, too. Get rid of the individuals, by all means, who harass - why not do it that way instead?

[Madspirit]

71. We Don't Want You There

Deal. You have millions of straight bars to our one. We get beaten when go to your bars AS gay people. You don't need to invade our tiny little place in the world. Don't be a rapist. Stop trying to FORCE yourself on people who are OFTEN victims of straight people....NOW...TODAY...OFTEN...thousands of us a year...victims of straight people. "No" means NO. We should have a place we feel safe and comfortable. We're not a zoo. Gawk elsewhere. It's really disgusting that you would want to FORCE YOURSELF ON US. We can't even dance together in your bars. Shame on you. The worse kind. You don't even get it.
Lee

[Madspirit]

72. ...and

I don't use the word "rapist" lightly EVER...being a woman and all and a survivor of abuse. If you FORCE yourself into some place where people don't want you BECAUSE they have been victims of YOU and they don't feel SAFE and COMFORTABLE with you...the word is apt.
Lee

[nam78_two]

73. Exactly so. Thank you

:thumbsup:

[Bluebear]

75. Thank you. nt

[SemiCharmedQuark]

87. I think this is a really great comparison.

I'm embarrassed about the "reverse discrimination" charge being offered by by some opponents of this. Just like the people who complain about affirmative action or college funds set up for minorities, some people here don't seem to understand that the playing field is uneven.

[Richard Steele]

88. I'm aware of WHY this is being done. We all know that.

But we're looking past the surface of this, and recognizing that
this is a HUGE step in the wrong direction.

Once precedent is set to ban people from public businesses based
on their orientation, do you really think the bigots won't use
this to BAN GAYS from a thousand times more places?

This is a ruling that has homophobes in high places CACKLING at
the new possibilities for legalized discrimination, barely able
to contain their glee.

How can you not realize that?



BTW, to answer your question, "Why do heterosexuals WANT to go to gay bars?"...
because it was a nice bar, and some of my friends hung out there. Pretty
much the same reason I've ever gone to ANY bar.

[557188]

101. You should grow up

Separating only makes the problem worse in the long run. Your quick fixes create environments where it's ok to discriminate based on irrelevant things.

Good job!

Fuck diversity. Lets all mingle in our little safe homogeneous groups. That is progress right there buddy!

Sometimes I really wonder if half the people on this site even understand the word progressive.

[BlooInBloo]

58. Wow if only there were this kind of outcry every time gay folks are discriminated against.

[Madspirit]

60. THANKS BlooInBloo!

...and you managed to get it all in the "subject" line. :yourock:

Lee

[BlooInBloo]

62. I'm not hungover any more - can achieve a higher meaning/word ratio. :)

[Bluebear]

76. THANK you BiB! nt

[ComerPerro]

63. I don't like this thread title. You could have said something like

"Austrailian bar bars heterosexuals" and then it would have been punny and funny.

[BlooInBloo]

69. pfunny!

EDIT: pfucked up my own pfucking joke. pfuck it.

[SoCalDem]

78. So.. do they make people have sex in front of them to prove their orientation?

and then let them in?

Girls often go to bars in groups. If they don;t have a guy with them, does that make them lesbians? If 4 guys go together, in hopes of meeting a girl, are they homosexual because they don't "bring their own"?

Why don't the clubs just say "boy-girl couples" only..no singles

[The Straight Story]

79. Banning people not like you is always good I hear

From the rw anyway....

[ThomCat]

133. Why did I know you would post this?

On any thread that involves minorities you're right there advocating the majority's right to control every space, every medium, every environment. There's certainly no need for safe spaces or separate identities. :eyes:

[Jamastiene]

81. Oh, brother. Most of the heterosexuals in this thread are being too sensitive.

Did it ever occur to you that maybe we GLBT people do not want your perversion in our clubs? Did it ever occur to you that we may not wish you harm, but we don't want your lifestyle to become so acceptable that we have to allow you, by law, into the rest of civilization? You heterosexuals choose your sexual preference, ya know. Perhaps if you "choose" your way back to a more acceptable, civilized, ecologically responsible lifestyle, we may give you more consideration.

Your overly sensitive whiny posts on the matter are hurting your cause. You are striking out at the very people who believe you should have every equal rights under the law, except protection from crimes committed against you just because you are straight. And NO, we are not ready to allow you to pervert our institution of marriage yet either. Do you know how quickly the gay divorce rate would rise if we allowed you heteros to marry? :nopity:

We have a special seat for you in the back of the bus. We've been keeping it warm for you. It should be plenty good enough for you to sit down, shut up and quit whining about wanting your special rights just because you are straight. You are hurting the Democrats' chances at re-election in 2008. Do you want that bloodbath on your hands? I suspect not, so sit down, shut up, and quit whining about exhaust fumes. You are lucky we allow you to live. In some countries, far worse could be happening to you. If you dared say some of the things mentioned in this thread, you'd be under the bus. Yes, you would. Maybe, you should reconsider your opinions in that light.

Oh, my, how the shoe feels on the other foot, huh? Maybe when you quit whining and wanting special rights, you would stop and see that you already have every right in the fucking world. You ain't special. Even if a huge group of gay people were to decide to gang up and beat you senseless, you shouldn't complain. Remember, all crimes are hate crimes. You are nothing special. So, how does that shoe feel now while you sit choking on exhaust fumes? How dare you insinuate that we GLBT people haven't been supportive of you. Now you are just asking for too too much with your special rights banter. Shut up and pretend like you think we give a shit. :sarcasm:

:smoke: :evilgrin:

[BlooInBloo]

85. zing.

[Behind the Aegis]

82. Not a good idea, not at all.

I can appreciate making us feel comfortable in our own bars, however, banning non-gays is absurd. If heterosexuals are causing problems or a "scene," then they should be removed. I admit that I don't like the "lookie-loos" and assholes, but banning straights would also mean that we couldn't take our "queer dears" with us, or family, friends, co-workers, etc. I wouldn't patronize a bar that restricted straights any more than I would one that restricted others based on their race. One doesn't combat homophobia with discrimination, and that is what this "bill" is.

[avrdream]

83. How do you decide if they are gay or not?

It isn't as if we carry around identification telling our sexual preference.

Wierd legislation - it can't really be enforced.

[Madspirit]

91. Believe me

We can tell.
Lee

[johnnie]

89. According to this article, they don't want lesbians there either

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070529/od_nm/australia_hotel_dc_1;_ylt=Am9UiV9NX7T39otnaD6krkIE1vAI


"McFeely said that, while the hotel welcomed everyone, its gay clientele had expressed discomfort over the number of heterosexuals and lesbians coming to the venue in the past year."

I think it's fine, I don't have a problem with the banning of heterosexuals at certain bars. I don't understand why they don't want lesbians there though, if they know why they are there. No?

[Madspirit]

90. I support my gay brothers in this

Sometimes you just want to feel comfortable and safe. We have all lesbian bars.
Lee

[Dastard Stepchild]

92. I remember this bar in Manchester, UK..

that used to get quite packed on the weekends. When the line at the door got too long, they would turn the straights away... or at least try to. :)

I was there with my then girlfriend, and we proved our admittance worthiness by planting a somewhat drunk and sloppy kiss on one another.

[Madspirit]

106. hee

Nothing wrong with a drunk sloppy kiss...in certain situations...<g>
Lee

[Dastard Stepchild]

124. Yup! :)

I couldn't agree more. We even got a knowing wink from some of the lovely ladies in line.

[Madspirit]

93. LISTEN UP!!

You are demanding an inclusion you've NEVER extended to us in one of the ONLY places we can be who we are and feel safe and comfortable. It's our shelter from the storm.

Straight people drove us underground, into closets, hidden bars and clubs, a life not live out-loud and now they want to force their way in...makes me puke.

None of the whiners even addressed the "why" the bar wanted to do that. The article said straight people were coming in abusing the gay folk. Not one of these whiners said one word about that.

Your aggression, your entitlement issues, your violence, your gawking, your demands to be front and center....all that little straight boy stuff...we're there to get away from it.

It's silly-assed crap like..."eww...now they will discriminate against Aborigines". What empty-minded nonsensical drivel. For one thing, as I keep pointing out, straight people have about 72 trillion clubs to our one and for another, we've always been discriminated against in straight bars. Do you REALLY think we are allowed to be in straight bars AS gay people. Yeah right. ...and it still hasn't made the world a worse place for Aborigines. :rofl:

This isn't some Right we're taking from you. We're not imposing on your freedoms or safety. We're not barring you from housing or education. We're saying if you come to our sanctuary it's at our discretion.

Frankly, the het. whining is the stupidest thing I've ever seen and especially the posts with all of the pathetic..."oh this is so unfair.." LIKE YOU KNOW "UNFAIR"! What an absurd joke.
...and you keep addressing me with all your frank and earnest CONCERN about the whole world going down the toilet now that you can't go into this gay bar that YOU WERE NEVER GOING TO GO INTO ANYWAY.

So much whining just because the shoe is on the other foot, in a really tiny way. Straight people have the whole world. You can hold hands walking down the streets, you can kiss in a restaurant, you can marry, you own the whole fucking world and you have to whine because there might be one place you can't just push your sense of entitlement into everyone's face.

The world isn't nice enough yet for people to not need safe places. You've proved that point. WHY DON'T YOU BE UPSET ABOUT THAT!! Do something about that. I suggest some consciousness raising courses.
Lee

[IndyJones]

98. Cool your heels. I don't want in. It's all yours.

[Raskolnik]

99. A suggestion

Your aggression, your entitlement issues, your violence, your gawking, your demands to be front and center....all that little straight boy stuff...we're there to get away from it.

Speaking as a straight boy, I don't know that that's a particularly endearing way to make your point.

Your point about desiring a safe haven and the relatively innocuous nature of closing off one bar is well taken. However, I believe the problem some people may have with this policy is not necessarily the effect of one bar being off limits, but the precedent it may set. I think you would agree that as a general rule, excluding people from a public place based on their sexual orientation is not desirable, and the best of intentions could lead to abuse.

I agree that this is probably not the end of the world, and it most likely will not lead to widespread discrimination ("reverse" or otherwise") but it is possible to be uneasy with the idea of this policy without being callous to more serious forms of discrimination.

[Madspirit]

104. You Get It

I don't like a segregated world. I take my straight friends to gay bars. They needed this so they wouldn't be sued if they tossed out mouth breathers, gawkers and abusers.

What got me so god damned riled is that everyone just skipped right over the "why" part. It says right in the article straight people were coming in harassing the patrons of the pub. Not one whine about that. Not one..."wow, that's awful. Gay people can't even be safe in their own place." NOT ONE. It was all just...whine, whine, whine. THAT got me really pissed off.

...but you seem to get it. I will take you to a gay bar any time...
Lee

[ThomCat]

134. She had no need to be endearing in making a point.

She's speaking the truth and it's about time straight people grew some humility and paid attention. We deal with straight people being less than endearing all the time.

[AZBlue]

116. I see your point - and it's a very valid one.

I guess though, as a Karen Walker-hag type, I would rather see some sort of exception made for those of us who are friendlies. I know it's hard to let the good in and keep the bad out, but I'd be bummed if I couldn't hang out with my friends, gay or straight.

[Madspirit]

117. ...well remember

It doesn't say straights can't be allowed. It only gives that provision so if they throw out a harasser or a gawker, they can't be sued. I've taken many cool straight friends to gay bars.
Lee

[AZBlue]

125. Oh, thank you, I missed that part.

I didn't see it - that makes me feel better! ;)

[mondo joe]

96. I dislike it. I am opposed to exclusion by group on principle, not just

for some groups.

If some customers are abusive, they should be kicked out, like in any bar.

[Prism]

97. I Don't Get It

Why the need to ban straights and lesbians? Why not just create a rigorously enforced anti-harrassment policy? Was that too difficult?

Now, I understand the bar's impulse. There are examples that have received much play in the United States. For example, over the past few years articles have run about the "gay ghettoes" in major American cities, and how they're being gentrified by young, well-to-do heterosexual couples with children. How bars and neighborhoods that the gay community has renovated and built are now being seen as hip and desirable by trendy heterosexual crowds. Quite a bit of angst in it all, and no real good solution.

Similarly, this past weekend in Chicago, there was some argument over a private sex club geared towards gay men that has a ban on female to male transgendered. With the usual arguments "We want to keep a male homoerotic environment in place. Patrons aren't comfortable, etc. etc."

However, in that case the argument I've heard from gay friends and media seems to fall squarely on the side of transgendered patrons. That discriminating against them is wrong. But in this Australia case, it seems suddenly it's ok, because hey, they're only discriminating against straight people. And don't they kind of have that coming?

It seems unnecessarily divisive to me, and I say that as a gay individual myself. People and businesses have many ways of making unwanted patrons feel uncomfortable and removing trouble-makers. Codifying discriminatory attitudes in law, however, is a whole other ball of wax. It doesn't set good precedent, IMO.

[Madspirit]

100. READ People

It doesn't say they HAVE to not let straights in. It says they have that right. It's so they won't be sued when they do toss an aggressive straight asshat. It says they have the right of that choice.

We can't go in their clubs AS gays. You know it. You know what happens to us when we do. Jeez...what is it about reading comprehension that people are lacking. We have a right to a safe and ungawked at sanctuary. IF we want to let a straight in, that too is our right. If someone is just sitting there gawking like a mouth breather and they were tossed out for that, the bar could be sued, without this law.

Lee

[Prism]

103. I think my problem with it is . . .

. . . how the argument is emotionally placed. Lots of "us and we" and "they and their" involved here. My kind and the other.

Which is generally not a great place to be when debating these kinds of differences. It generates a lot of unnecessary hostility and tends to pit groups against one another.

That's why I think the bar would be better served by a stern anti-harrassment policy. It gives management the tools it needs to create a safe, welcoming environment for their intended patrons, without devolving into the kind of Us vs. Them bunker mentality that merely serves to deepen division rather than bridge it.

Reasonable people can disagree.

[Madspirit]

105. Answer

What got me so god damned riled is that everyone just skipped right over the "why" part. It says right in the article straight people were coming in harassing the patrons of the pub. Not one whine about that. Not one..."wow, that's awful. Gay people can't even be safe in their own place." NOT ONE. It was all just...whine, whine, whine. THAT got me really pissed off.

...and how do you apply a strict anti-harassment policy to mouth breathers and gawkers?

Lee

[Prism]

108. How do you define mouth breathers and gawkers?

Sometimes I go to a gay bar and dance and interact with friends and strangers. Sometimes I like to go sip a drink and quietly observe people.

It's one thing when confronted with, say, a bachelorette party full of women who are obviously there to ogle men in an environment free of sexual pressure. Quite another to pinpoint this or that patron who belongs and doesn't. What determining factors are used? Gay people are diverse, and I'd wonder how a policy like this could ever be enforced on the small scale.

I would expect the obvious transgressors to be effectively dealt with through an anti-harrassment policy. When you get into the larger categories like orientation, well, I'll just say I hope I'm gay enough not to draw the eye of management. I don't know how to dress, and sometimes I'm just at a bar for the atmosphere. Hate to think I'd be suspected of being straight.

But this is also ignoring the generally bad precedent of putting discrimination down in legal code. That bothers me no matter what the reason.

[Madspirit]

102. Reading Comprehension is Good

It doesn't say they HAVE to not let straights in. It says they have that right. It's so they won't be sued when they do toss an aggressive straight asshat. It says they have the right of that choice.

We can't go in their clubs AS gays. You know it. You know what happens to us when we do. Jeez...what is it about reading comprehension that people are lacking. We have a right to a safe and ungawked at sanctuary. IF we want to let a straight in, that too is our right. If someone is just sitting there gawking like a mouth breather and they were tossed out for that, the bar could be sued, without this law.

Lee

[Rosephase]

107. Discrimination because of sexual origination isn't acceptable.

Isn't it easy to see how setting a precedent that it is acceptable, might come back and bit everyone in the ass? I hate the idea of not being able to feel safe or act the way you feel comfortable acting, but supporting a precedent that makes it okay to discriminate because of orientation isn't the way to get that safety and comfort back in the long term.

[Madspirit]

109. Oh cry me a river

...like we're allowed in their bars AS gay people. Go dance with someone of your own sex at a straight bar and see what happens. Run like the wind. I dare you. You will beaten, harassed, maybe raped or killed. Please. ...I suggest you read my upthread posts. No one is saying straights can't go there. They are saying it's up to the discretion of the bar.

There are so many places that set "WHO" requirements..."ties required"..."women's clubs"..."MEN'S CLUBS..."..."Veterans Only"..."alcoholics only"...etc. ...and anyone can set the limit by making it a private club.

WHY DON'T YOU ADDRESS THE "WHY" THEY FELT A NEED TO DO THIS. Jesus fucking Christ...it was because straights were coming in harassing the patrons. Cry about THAT.
Lee

[Beaverhausen]

111. Is the club in question a public one or private?

Private clubs are allowed to have rules about who the membership is, but public clubs have to let everyone in - well, there are some rules of course, and that is what bouncers are for.

And I don't know one public bar or club that does not allow gay people to enter- if they didn't they could be sued. Then again, I live in Los Angeles- fortunately we are very tolerant here.

[Madspirit]

112. Hi

It's a public club in Australia and they've already made the law that they can exclude straights. Read my....please...because I value your opinion..."LISTEN UP" post upthread. ...and the anger is not at you. It's at all the people who just ignored the "why" part...because straights were coming in ABUSING the patrons and all I've heard are the whining about being excluded from one damned thing on the planet. Anyway, I ALWAYS value your opinion so please read the "LISTEN UP" post.

Also, it doesn't say they HAVE to exclude straights. It says they have the option.

Lee

[Beaverhausen]

113. I understand that the club wants to get rid of people who are abusing the patrons

I don't see why a law has to be passed though-as others in this thread have asked, why doesn't the club hire better bouncers?

If anyone at any club anywhere is harassed, the harasser should be tossed out. Period.

This straight girl has been to gay/lesbian clubs and been to public clubs with my gay friends and fortunately I haven't seen anything like this happening. I know it does though, and I understand wanting a club that feels like a safe haven. But I still think it's a dangerous path to go down to allow discrimination based on sexual orientation.

[Madspirit]

118. It doesn't say

It doesn't say you can't come in if we want you to...<g> I've gone to the bar with many straight friends. If you're a cool enough straight to be allowed, you won't be wearing it on your sleeve anyway.
Lee

[AZBlue]

115. And this pisses me off b/c as a straight woman who has lots of gay male friends,

they are cutting into my fantastic dancing time!!!!!!!!

I love gay bars. Because I love gay men. I guess this is a little bit of a stereotype here, but it's based on lots of years of experience with them - they are open, friendly, fun, sensitive and sweet. And some of the best times I've had have been out with a group of gay male friends at gay bars - so on behalf of all of us "hags," this is disturbing.

[Madspirit]

120. I Promise

I'm a lesbian but some of my fave folks are hags. You can come to our bars. We will have a "hag exclusion" written into the law. : >
Lee

[AZBlue]

126. ...

:toast:

I hang out at "Ain't Nobody's Biz" here in Phoenix with a very good friend of mine and her girlfriend. Definitely one of the best bars in town (although admittedly that's a weak compliment in Phoenix!).

[jpgray]

119. Whoops, I thought I was Madspirit for a second

[Madspirit]

121. Pretend Straight Person

I am going to pretend I am the coolest heterosexual in the entire world and I JUST read this article:

"Coolest Heterosexual Ever: Man, just reading that pisses me off. What is wrong with those straight people that they have to go abuse gay people at their own bars OR ANYWHERE? I am so very sorry that happened. Also, in this world where I benefit SO VERY MUCH, from the un-level playing field, I just want to say how sorry I am that WE have created such a violent and scary world for our gay and lesbian brothers and sisters. I am SO sorry you have to fear for your lives just for being who you are and I apologize for any complicity I have in that, even if only passively, by not always and without fail, defending you against bias and bigotry. I am sorry I have not objected EVERY time I've ever heard a cruel, crude and stereotyping joke. I promise to do everything I can and to work really hard to assure you get all your rights and that there is NEVER again a Matthew Sheppard or a Brandon Teena. ...and can I just say, one more time, how sorry I am that these idiots came to your place of safety and comfort just to abuse you."


:rofl:

I can't hear you.
Lee

[Bluebear]

122. Wow, Pretend Straight Person (PSP), you are awesome!

Thank you for your support, PSP! Those words are music to your gay brothers and sisters who just want to be themselves, be safe, you know, stay alive.

Thanks for not immediately throwing a shit fit because of the "bigotry" involved by you not being allowed in that bar. You know, the Daughters of the Civil War won't let me into their club either, but it ain't no thang. I never wanted to BE in their club, so I am not going to make a big hissy over their "bigotry".

You are the coolest, PSP, and maybe one day we can go pub crawling together in a world where NOBODY gets beat up. Or maimed. Love ya, mean it!

[Madspirit]

123. I Try to Be Awesome...thank-you...Your PSP...n/t