A perspective on Impeachment

[JNelson6563]

Lots of talk of impeachment and clearly there are grounds for it.

Those of us who have long been wise to the ways of Team Bush and the PNAC gang can find it inconceivable to not move to impeach immediately. To those newly (re-)elected to Congress the view is different. They were elected on promises to get things done for the benefit of the people, as in tangibles like education, health care and such. Nothing good was getting done by the Republicans, mostly just partisan games and taking bribes from lobbyists. I spoke with Senators Levin and Stabenow last weekend and both feel strongly that the American people would be very unhappy if the two year term the Dem House was just elected to was spent/squandered on what would seem to the masses just more partisan game playing when things are so bad for so many.

I do believe that the minds of our Congress people can be changed but in only one way: They must be convinced that impeaching Team Bush is what the american people want more than anything. This is wholly possible. We have to organize by getting letters sent to all of our Reps, calls to their offices, letters to the editors and anything else we can do ourselves.

In addition to solid organizing on our part for getting this message to Congress, I fear circumstances will contribute heavily to this effort. Bad news pouring in from Iraq all the time. So much death and waste. Our budget woes building. more painful cuts coming. Nothing but horror and more horror on the horizon. They cannot get control of Iraq and the press grows emboldened with falling poll numbers for Jr., new and very damaging developments from the Libby trial emerging daily and on the list goes.

Congress seems to be deaf, they are not. They will focus on their agendas to accomplish as much as possible while they have the votes to do it. If they come to realize we (as in a large majority of the people) want impeachment first they will act accordingly. To be honest I do not think they have nearly enough evidence to believe most Americans consider this the top priority. At least not yet.

Julie

[omega minimo]

1. K&R

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=86974&mesg_id=86974


After her introduction (and an impressive list of committee memberships, including Judiciary) Representative Maxine Waters pointed out that she is also the Chair of the House Out of Iraq caucus. She said that she was in Congress during the Clinton impeachment. “Infidelity pales in comparison to what this president has done.” All the primary reasons for impeachment-- violating FISA law, using torture and using detention/rendition-- are high crimes and misdemeanors.

Rep. Waters said that after 9-11, this administration “fashioned this phony war on terrorism.” After 9-11, people were afraid and that fear was used. “People are afraid and they are being taken advantage of.”

When she discusses why Congressional Democrats are “not moving aggressively to resist this president,” she hears a lot of “He’s the president” and “He’s the commander in chief” as excuses for inaction.

So, Rep. Waters says, “Let’s impeach Cheney!”

Rep. Waters pointed out that members of Congress are used to issues “organized into the possible and impossible” and they “view their work in terms of the possibility of success.”

(So, she is faced with the attitude in Congress of impeachment as an exercise in futility and faced in California with a crowd of 1,000 that sees it as vitally important).

The event clearly had an affect on her and the crowd was left with the impression that she would carry the message back to the House and to the Judiciary Committee.

It seemed that from the perspective of Congress, they don’t understand what the public really thinks. “I would think that people are so........”

The crowd filled in the blank during the Congresswoman’s pause:

“OUTRAGED!”

“.....outraged, I would think people would be out in the streets...”

ARE MANY IN CONGRESS WAITING FOR THE PUBLIC TO DO SOMETHING WHILE MANY IN THE PUBLIC ARE WAITING FOR CONGRESS MEMBERS TO DO SOMETHING?

[JNelson6563]

3. Good article

I really believe if there is enough noise on this...we should try to dominate the discussion as the right has always done. I don't think Congress is waiting for us to do something but waiting to hear from us, loud and clear, on what we want them to do.

Terrible news from Iraq flowing steadily with Libby trial revelations on a daily basis will convince more Team Bush has got to go. It will become clear to so many who have been blind for so long that all sorts of dirty tricks were used to get us into the growing disaster that is the Iraq war. It's not enough to wake everyone up but to get them to join the hue and cry.

Julie

[omega minimo]

5. Another consideration

"I spoke with Senators Levin and Stabenow last weekend and both feel strongly that the American people would be very unhappy if the two year term the Dem House was just elected to was spent/squandered on what would seem to the masses just more partisan game playing when things are so bad for so many."


Even for elected officials, that "strategery" type attitude reflects a deep lack of comprehension of what the stakes are and how this system (supposedly) works.

The fact that impeachment has not already occurred is an indictment of the people and the times and a reflection of how distanced from reality we have become.

[porphyrian]

2. I'll kick that. - n/t

[omega minimo]

7. I'll kick that. - n/t

[radfringe]

4. Molly Ivins encourages people to get out in the streets

and bang the pots and pans

Thom Hartman says we have to be the parade, we the people have to lead the parade

one thing is certain - we need to get the attention of the people WE HIRED to represent us

PUT IT ON A PLATE AND THEN PUT IT IN THE TABLE:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x90868

[JNelson6563]

6. Amen sister!

:toast:

[PhilipShore]

8. Kick

:kick:

[pat_k]

9. "Elected to get things done" is the Opposite of Reality.

The notion that they were elected on their "agenda" is a baseless illusion.

". . .impeaching Team Bush is what the american people want more than anything" is reality.

They are in deep denial, living in a fantasy world. Email, letters, and calls are fine, but intervention, up close and personal, is going to be needed to knock them out of their fantasy world. Anyone can become a citizen lobbyist. Find out the scheduler's name for the office you can visit and send a meeting request (http://january6th.org/mtg-request-sample-jan6.pdf">sample). It's daunting, so take a friend or two (too many makes dialog more difficult).

The election was overwhelmingly about the nation's outrage at what Bush has done to our country. That's what the polls tell us (e.g., Newsweek's 11/11 poll below); that's what the real experts tell us (e.g. Curtis Gans, Director, Center for the Study of the American Electorate -- interview except below).

Every question in the Newsweek poll reflecting anger at Bush and the Republicans is a "major reason" for over 50% (and go as high as 85%).

With the exception of "changing course in Iraq," every question related to Democratic "ideas" or disatisfaction with "partisanship" is a "major reason" for under 50% (and go as low as 27%). And, as long as the massive power of the American presidency is in the hands of Bush and Cheney, the nation has NO hope of "changing course in Iraq."

The election victory was not about "getting things done." When voters rejected Bush, his administration, and his rubber stamp Congress as intolerably incompetent/corrupt/extreme they were not calling on the Dems to "get things done"; they were not calling for "bipartisanship" with Bush at the helm.

Their message was loud and clear: "We want out of Bush-World! Now!"
(and this message polled at 58% in the http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x82492">latest from Newsweek)

The only way out is impeachment. They have been betraying their Congression oath for years with their stubborn refusal to demand it, whatever the consequences.

Our so-called Democratic "leaders" refuse to impeach at their peril. (Just remember how well it worked out for them when they refused to impeach Reagan and Bush I.)

The company line you're hearing from Levin and Stabenow is flat wrong and politically idiotic on several fronts. (1) "Getting things done" is not why they were elected; (2) They can't get anything real done for real people under rule by signing statement. Passing laws is useless when they are nullified and ignored; (3) Being complicit with in crime is never good politics.

Do the Dems really want to be blamed for the coming war with Iran because they refused to impeach Bush and Cheney (something that ONLY the House can do)? Do they really want to be complicit with the Bush syndicates crimes, both known and yet to be discovered?

I hope not. I hope rationality and sanity overcomes the impotent cowardice of our so-called "leadership."

The Biggest Problem that plagues the Democratic Party is the perception that they are weak. Failing to impeach, they confirm their "cowardly Dem" image (just read the transcript for http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16904772/">Carlson's Jan 30th show if you doubt it). The only way they can REALLY do something and challenge their "cowardly Dems" image is to deomonstrate the strength and courage that Americans respect by impeaching Bush and Cheney. All else is hot air and empty words. Even hitting them with their purse won't stop the "unitary authoritarian executive."

http://www.prnewswire.com/cgi-bin/stories.pl?ACCT=109&STORY=/www/story/11-11-2006/0004472100&EDATE">Newsweek 11/11/06
We're interested in why you think the Democrats were able to regain
control of Congress in this week's elections. As I read some possible
reasons, please tell me if you think each is a major reason, a minor
reason, or not a reason for the Democrats' success.

------------------------
Disapproval of how the Bush administration has handled the war in Iraq
Major reason 85 %

------------------------
Disapproval of President Bush's overall job performance
Major reason 71 %

------------------------
Dissatisfaction with how Republicans have handled government spending and the deficit
Major reason 67 %

------------------------

Disapproval of the overall job performance of Republicans in Congress
Major reason 63 %

------------------------

Democrats' ideas and proposals for changing course in Iraq
Major reason 61 %

------------------------

Corruption charges and scandals involving Republicans
Major reason 52 %

------------------------
Disapproval of the apparent arrogance of Republicans in Washington
Major reason 50 %

------------------------
Dissatisfaction with the partisan approach of Republicans in Congress
Major reason 48 %

------------------------
Democrats' ideas and proposals for improving the economy and job situation
Major reason 47 %

------------------------

Democrats' ideas and proposals for improving health care
Major reason 47 %

------------------------
Democrats' ideas and proposals for protecting the environment and developing alternative energy sources
Major reason 35 %

------------------------
Democrats had better candidates
Major reason 27 %

Curtis Gans
Director
http://spa.american.edu/csae">Center for the Study of the American Electorate

On Politically Direct with David Bender
http://podcast.rbn.com/airam/airam/download/archive/2006/11/aapd111006.mp3">November 10th (Interview start time approx 18:30)

Bender: Joining me now is Curtis Gans. He is the Director of the Center for the Study of the American Electorate at American University and he has just released a new study analyzing the turnout this past Tuesday, and there's some interesting and there are some very, very interesting shifts in the turnout from previous elections. Welcome to Politically Direct . . .

Gans: It's very good to talk to you David.

Bender: Curtis, I'm holding the study in my hand right now, and clearly one of the things that all the exit polls showed was that Iraq played a part and your own work bears that out -- that Iraq helped propel some degree of an increase in turnout in this last election.

Gans: I think that it is not simply Iraq, although Iraq started Bush's downhill. But it is a gestalt around George Bush. it's being a pariah to other countries; it's people dying in what they increasing find is a vain fight; it's massive budgetary imbalances; it's a lack of compassionate conservatism; it's insecurity in jobs; it's the feeling that people have not been leveled with.

Bender: You've been doing this for almost 30 years; studying the American electorate. And there is probably no greater expert than you. It's just a real pleasure to have you on this program. . .

More on lobbying for impeachment in http://journals.democraticunderground.com/pat_k">My Journal

[JNelson6563]

11. Seems a lot different on the ground

It's pretty easy to bitch about our crappy president in a poll. They apparently are not nearly upset enough to be jamming the phone lines and flooding the mailrooms. Yet.

Out here in a hard hit by the Bush economy part of the world (Michigan) I don't hear talk of people longing for impeachment. They are very concerned with other things at the moment, like getting by.

Polls and the political realm differ from "out here". I happen to think we need to convince all these souls who are so very unhappy in the polls to take the next step and scream bloody murder. Holding very negative views but remaining passive will not light a fire under anyone's butt.

Julie

[pat_k]

13. They are immobilized by irrational fear of opposition to impeachment. Delusional.

Look hard and long for any sign of it, but the mythical backlash beast simply doesn't exist. It is a fantasy.

With the relentless pounding of the "shouldn't impeach" "won't happen" "can't happen" "impeachment is bad" coming from our "leaders" and all quarters of the beltway chattering class, they'be been unable to drive "shouldn't impeach" numbers over 44%.

They've been throwing all they've got at suppressing the will to impeach. It's not going away. That speaks volumes.

We have no champion of impeachment in a position of power. In fact, Pelosi is an anti-champion, "cracking the whip" to make sure any other leader who threatens to be a champion shuts up.

When a real leader gives voice to the anger and says "get the bastards" "impeach them" they would tap into the motherlode of energy and outrage.

. . .
The "strange silence" does not reflect a lack of alarm and outrage

The dismay and seething anger is all around us. But our "leaders" have failed to give voice to the outrage. When outrage is given no voice in the public square, people tend to keep it to themselves, believing they are alone.

When no one gives voice to outrage, the floodgates remain closed. But when a public figure speaks out and taps into the energy, whoosh!

I saw a microcosm of this after the theft of the 2004 Presidential election. I was on a Democracy for America conference call. From the back and forth, it sounded like there were maybe 5 or 10 people on the line as they talked about this or that agenda item and possible things to focus on as we "learned lessons" and "moved forward." There was little energy.

As the moderator neared the end of the agenda someone piped up "What about Ohio? What about the stolen election? What does Burlington plan to do about that?" Suddenly there was a chorus. Dozens talking at once. It was unbelievable. It sounded like there were about a hundred people on the line -- people who had been "strangely silent."

If no one had given voice to the anger, no one on that call would have thought that anyone else cared -- they would have withdrawn in silence. And the "leaders" would have been able to tell themselves the stolen election just isn't something that people are interested in. They would have walked away from the call believing everyone else was on board with their "let's move on" agenda, which was the opposite of the truth. In fact, the mother lode of energy was with the "It Ain't Over 'Til it's Over!" people.

We see this over and over again in ways large and small.

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/pat_k/14
">More. . .

[JNelson6563]

16. We shall see who steps up, won't we?

And in the meantime, we need to call every office of our Senators and Reps. Write them, e-mail them, get LTTEs published and get everyone you know to do the same.

Make it undeniably the people's will. This is what it will take.

Julie

[pat_k]

20. Face-to-face meetings must go hand-in-hand with broader campaigns.

Calls, FAXes, email, marches -- they all demonstrate numbers, but they are all one-way communications. We would never have gotten Barbara Boxer to object to the Ohio elections with letters alone.

Corporations spend millions on lobbyists for a reason. There is no substitute for face-to-face dialog.

As long as our Reps and Senators are trapped behind the wall of their fantasies and rationalizations, our demands for action will continue to slide off like water off ducks back.

Campaigns that demonstrate numbers are FAR more likely to be successful if more of us take the next step and sit down with members and staffers, elicit their rationalizations, and directly challenge them. Dialog is critical.

If we are to inject reality into their insular world, more of us need to enter that world. Schedule meetings. Follow up. Get answers. Force them to speak their baseless "everybody knows" assumptions, and shoot them down with reality. It does not take large numbers of citizen lobbyists armed with simple truths and moral principles to have an enormous effect.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=82939&mesg_id=88759">Related Post

[in_cog_ni_to]

10. They can also be impeached AFTER they leave office, but too much damage could be done by then.

I surely would encourage Impeachment before then. More and more people have been calling for Impeachment just over the escalation matter. Just wait until the Plame story explodes. The American people from the North, South, East and West will be demanding Impeachment.

I just hope they do something about evoting machines before they get buried in an Impeachment hearing. A paper trail is a MUST for the '08 election.

[omega minimo]

15. "could be"?

:wow:

[in_cog_ni_to]

17. LOL! Damn! I DO stand corrected!

MORE damge could be done!:hi:

[omega minimo]

19. Right-- and more HAS been done because Americans didn't protest the 2nd stolen election

Let Repugs call it "sour grapes"

[Lucidtomr]

12. RE: A perspective on Impeachment

JNelson6563, well, it's not gonna happen, because Nancy Pelosi won't budge. I believe she is being black mailed by the Bush Administration.... And well, look, on a recent episode of Countdown with Keith Olbermann, Jan 17, 2007, there was an article /3rd story, that showed the Bush Administration fire prosecutors whom had cases against some Bush supporters, one he mention was Carol Lamb, 'who had subpoenas out for some members of congress after taking down Duke Cunningham.' There was a law slipped in last year's patriot act which allows Gonzales to appoint anyone, bypassing the senate hearings.

With the Bush Administrations attack on our Justice Department, how can he be impeached? I mean WTF is wrong with them? They must be terrorists, perhaps Kluxers whom are anti-american, they hate our laws, our values, and morality.

Bush owns the cops and all, how are you gonna impeach him? We can't, Nancy Pelosi said she won't, the only people that can do something is the French, Canadians, and Russians, they should throw the Bush Administration officials for breaking International Laws. The only thing we can do is protest, but that is becoming more dangerous, especially now with his Kidnapping and torture policies, like his Military Commissions Act, not to mention undercover Bush Ops who try to provoke riots. Hypocrisy is not democracy, or something like that. We are dealing with Traglodytes that think they are on a power trip that lasts a lifetime. I hope the frog fripples step up and save us American, them or the peaceful Canadians. :sigh:

[pat_k]

14. The squawks of "impossible!" are getting more shrill. . .

The pressure to impeach is growing within their insular little world. So too is the fear. And their denial.

The cracks are growing. They're scrambling to shore up the walls. A great time to really put the pressure on.

. . .
STODDARD ("The Hill"): I think the whip is then cracked. But, you know, I know Republicans who voted—sane, grownup, respectable people who voted for Bush...
CARLSON: Right?
STODDARD: ... who would like him to not be in office tomorrow. . .
. . .
STODDARD: But I think the Republicans, what they would do is they wouldn‘t so much defend Bush, as they would say, look, the Democrats are power hungry. . . it's easy to turn this accusation back on them>
. . .
STODDARD: . . . you couldn‘t just impeach Bush, is obviously a salient poit. I mean, you just really couldn‘t look at what Cheney has, you know, practically admitted at this point. (sputter, sputter)

I think the whole thing is just impossible.

CARLSON: No, but wait a second.

STODDARD: It's just impossible.

. . .

STODDARD: And listen. You know, Ralph Nader brought up a poll. He said it was from two years ago and there was about 53 percent of—of the public was favor of impeachment if you learned that he had lied about such and such. About a year ago there was a poll at 53, 54 percent for censure.
This discussion will go on and on. It will not stop. And it might—John Conyers might start talking about it again, but are they actually going to proceed? I mean, no.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16904772/">Transcript . .

"The lady doth protest too much, methinks"
--Shakespeare

[newyawker99]

21. Hi Lucidtomr!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[Jacobin]

18. Nice way of avoiding the reality

that bush is a homicidal maniac about to attack Iran and congress is doing nothing about it. By doing nothing, they are CONDONING IT because they have the power to stop it and they won't

Fuck em. Fuck em all.