Venezuela: Water rationing in Caracas starts today

[denem]

Source: Examiner.com

In line with government plans to deal with a severe drought, citizens of Venezuela’s capital city will have to face strict cuts in water supply through May of next year.

Water service will be shut off for as much as 48 hours per week and will be staggered throughout the city, according to AFP reports citing Venezuelan government officials.

Some weather forecasters blame a severe drought spawned by “El Niño,” and others blame poor management by water sector officials.

Venezuelan President Hugo Chávez, however, had other ideas of the real cause for the shortage—the excesses of capitalism.

“What will the rich fill their swimming pools with?” Chávez asked recently. “With the water that is denied inhabitants in the poor neighborhoods,” he said, blaming the lack of sufficient water on “capitalism—a lack of feeling, a lack of humanity.”


Read more: http://www.examiner.com/x-17196-South-America-Policy-Examiner~y2009m11d2-Venezuela-Water-rationing-in-Caracas-starts-today

---

Drip, Drip, Drip.

[Arctic Dave]

1. Water rationing! How Communist. That would never happen in the good ol' USA.

[anonymous171]

2. Sounds like poor management to me.

Anytime Chavez has to pull the good ol' Capitalist/Oligarchy boogeyman out of his ass, you know something is up.

[troubledamerican]

5. Yeah, mismanagement of rainfall makes Chavez a REAL boogeyman.

Glad you could comment on Chavez. I'll be looking forward to your anti-autocrat comments on DU posts about Alvaro Uribe.

After all, Uribe is our "ally" in Colombia -- and he has DEATH SQUADS and MASS GRAVES, which Chavez DOESN'T have.

I'll be looking forward to your ideological consistency. What's your highly intelligent opinion on water rationing in Australia, in the face of their drought? Paul Rudd's mismanagement?

[EFerrari]

14. I don't think you know what "boogey man" means.

[imdjh]

3. Well, at least he didn't accuse us of stealing the rain clouds. Didn't Mexico do that?

[Auggie]

4. No one suspects climate change?

[wuushew]

10. yes actually

The El Niño/Southern Oscillation (ENSO) last occurred in 2006, and the present El Niño could last into the first quarter of 2010. The increased frequency of ENSO cycles in recent years may be related to global climate change, which is heating up water in the Pacific ocean.

The most destructive ENSO event in recent decades occurred in 1997-1998, bringing rains and flooding to different parts of the world which resulted in the deaths of more than 24,000 people and material damages of at least 30 billion dollars, according to a study by the U.S. National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration (NOAA).

http://ipsnews.net/news.asp?idnews=48972

[Braulio]

33. Sure

The climate changes all the time, it has been raining less lately, but it'll rain more later, when El Nino ends.

[JackRiddler]

6. Feb. 27, 2009: California Faces Water Rationing, Governor Proclaims Drought Emergency

http://www.ens-newswire.com/ens/feb2009/2009-02-27-093.asp

Chavez haters: You'd think DU of all places would find a way to also blame Schwarzenegger for the drought.

[WriteDown]

8. I hear there is also a drought in the Sahara desert.

:eyes:

[rayofreason]

12. The Governator is not blaming...

...the water shortage on the capitalism and rich people filling their pools, though that might be more relevant in CA.

[EFerrari]

15. Water has always been the fight in California and it has always been about

capitalism and rich people.

As it is all over the world.

The real problem with Hugo Chavez is that he is mostly right and "some people" can't take this little brown guy from a Latin American country being that uppity. And that's too bad because this is just the beginning of the revolt of America's back yard.

[sabrina 1]

54. Chavez didn't blame capitalism for the drought

If he made those comments at all, they are taken out of context. Like officials here, when people continue to use water during a drought for their own selfish purposes, it is not inappropriate to mention it. I've seen the same thing here when we had a drought. And here those selfish people were fined after they refused to conserve water. I haven't found anything to suggest that Chavez has gone that far yet.

I know, it's okay if the US does it ~

This OP is from a very biased source. I have posted a more balanced link on this story below.

[WriteDown]

7. This is made doubly odd by the fact that the rainy season...

just ended. There should be no shortage of water in Caracas.

[wuushew]

9. Are you saying there is no drought?

It would appear there is absent evidence to the contrary.

[WriteDown]

42. Not I, but Hugo is. nt

[sabrina 1]

17. I'm sure someone will be along to claim

that Chavez has all that water hidden somewhere because he's such a 'commie' and all.

We were overdue for a Chavez-bashing thread, so why don't you begin?

I'm sure he's lying about the drought, because there would be no way anyone could catch him in a lie like that :eyes:

[WriteDown]

43. Lying?

He did not say that a lack of rainfall is what caused the water restrictions . Read the article.

[sabrina 1]

53. I did read the slanted article and then went to a better source

which is always advisable if you want to get facts, not a biased report from a publication like the Examiner.

http://edition.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/americas/11/02/venezuela.water.rationing/index.html

Venezuela rations water in response to drought

The rolling cuts to water service will affect the capital of Caracas and some nearby areas for periods of up to 48 hours, the state-owned water utility Hidrocapital announced. The rationing will continue through the first quarter of 2010, the government said.

President Hugo Chavez has urged citizens to take extra steps to reduce water use, including a suggestion last week that taking a shower should take only three minutes.

The government says that weather phenomena are behind the drought, while critics of Chavez say that years of lack of infrastructure investment and planning left the country flat-footed when it came to offsetting the drought.

Nothing in this article supports the conspiracy theory that Chavez and his administration are denying that the shortage was caused by the drought. Quite the opposite, apparently it is the opposition, the equivalent of our Teabaggers who are using the drought to blame the government. They may have a point regarding the infrastructure, but it appears this has been a problem for decades.

As for the comments attributed to Chavez regarding people filling their pools with water, it's possible he said that. When we had a drought on the East End of LI a few years ago, similar comments were made by local government officials about people who continued to water their lawns and wash their cars, and a fine was finally imposed on them. They were not very popular with those who were conserving water until the wells were at safe levels again.

It is stunning how anything this man says is twisted to make it seem like something else by the rightwing. More stunning to see people on this board simply accept the distortions. What business is it of ours what that does? We are hardly in a position to criticize anyone else right now.

[WriteDown]

57. So don't believe his lying words? Got it.

I think he is able to change water into wine. Maybe he can also change oil into water.

Of course everyone knows the reason for the drought is the lack of rainfall in the Camatagua, but that is not what Chavez said.

Also, its interesting how he referred to Venzuelans as children. Also his reference to communism is odd:

http://upload.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x4115686

[sabrina 1]

58. So, you deliberately 'mis-interpret' people's words

to mean what you want them to mean? Got it!

Just to bring you back to the topic. YOU claimed that Chavez was denying the drought. I provided a link which proved you wrong. I also pointed out that the publication in the OP took his words out of context, please pay attention to this, this is NOT denying he spoke them. It is pointing out that they were taken out of context by a biased publication. I hope that is clear enough.

Now, to the link you just provided. I see an interpretation of his words with only two direct quotes. I also see that he was joking when he spoke about 'singing in the shower'. Clearly his ministers understood that, even if you did not.

Also, your link again proves that you were wrong when you claimed that Chavez was the one denying the drought:

Calling for water conservation, he said low rainfall caused by the El Nino weather phenomenon meant water levels were critically low in the El Guri reservoir, one of the world's largest dams.

That is from your own link. I know you'd like to change the subject from your claim that Chavez, not the opposition, was 'blaming everyone but the drought' or whatever, but the fact is, you did make that claim and were proven wrong, because you based your claim on an unreliable source

[WriteDown]

59. Chavez in blamed diversion of water from poor neihborhoods...

by the mysterious wealthy as the cause of the suffering. So he was trying to play the class warfare card in a very difficult time. There is no denying that.

Also, I noticed you didn't address Chavez's mention of communism or his calling the Venezuelan citizenry children. Odd.

[sabrina 1]

61. I have already addressed, several times his

admonition of those too selfish to give up their luxuries during a crisis. I have pointed out that many Politicians here have often done exactly that during a drought or other catastrophe and went on to say that here in the US, we often go much further than Chavez did, and actually fine those who care more about their green lawns or swimming pools. Clearly you do not read what people write. I hate repeating myself, and this is the third time I have addressed that point.

Funny that you have not acknowledged that what he did when he admonished those unwilling to give up a few luxuries during a crisis, was not different from what any leader does at such times. Your bias is showing.

As far as his throw away joke about Communism, it was a joke. Clearly I am not obsessed with the long past Cold War mentality of the fifties. So, I guess I don't find a reference to that ideology in the form a joke, no less, to be of any significance. What exactly is the significance of it? Sorry if I don't see it, and prefer to leave the 'there's a Commie under ever bed' nonsense to those still living in the McCarthy era. It means little to me and to most people living in today's world.

Iow, I hate to tell the fear-mongers, the over-used word, 'Communism' is not a scary word to most rational people today. It's a relic of the past and has little meaning to today's generation.

[WriteDown]

63. If the rich are "diverting" water from those in need....

Wouldn't it be fairly easy to find these secret water lines and have them cut off? Seems like Chavez could appoint a special task force with that mission? Or was that just a baseless accusation?

How exactly do you know it was a joke? Are you on his Twitter page?

I guess his reference to the Venezuelan people as his children was also a "joke."

Also I'm fairly certain that La Casona has some pretty large fountains and a pool.

[sabrina 1]

65. As I said, your bias is showing

Of course if he did cut off those water lines, you'd be trashing him for that, calling him a dictator.

What do you think of US officials who fine people like these who refuse to stop using water for unnecessary luxuries when there is a drought? You still haven't said.

And yes, it was a joke, and that is how his ministers took it. He is, and I know you don't like this, a very popular leader whose sense of humor is often evident when he speaks to the people there. So no, I'm not relying on this one incident. I've listened to several of his addresses to the people of Venezuela. Just as Obama sometimes uses humor when addressing the American people.

I'm sure you're right about La Casona. That's to be expected in a presidential residence. The WH has some pretty impressive luxurious features also, as do most of our State buildings, Governmors' mansions and mayoral residences. Same thing in Europe and everywhere else.

What is your point exactly? Should we get rid of all of our fountains in these state buildings in the US also? Are you criticizing elected officials for living in luxurious buildings in general, or just Chavez?

To be honest, I'm not following your logic at all.

[WriteDown]

69. Yeah, MY bias, haha...

Since Chavez is not looking for these hidden water mains, I guess we'll never know my actions.

No problem whatsoever. Limiting showers is not something I see often though.

Get rid of? No. Turn off, yes. Also, I would hope that water is not being diverted from the people for these fountains and pool. If you can point out other officials who are claiming water diversion then I will ridicule them as well.

Logic does not seem to be your strong point.

[Braulio]

72. What I think Chavez means

I suspect Chavez is referring to the use of water by the rich to irrigate golf courses in Caracas, and to water lawns. However, this is the rainy season in that part of South America, so I assume there's very little water being used to water lawns.

Chavez has a tendency to encourage class warfare, but I'm not sure this language helps him.

[Braulio]

71. Today's generation?

What's that? The generation so young it forgot or never learned the horrors found inside the Soviet Union after it was defeated by the Russian people themselves?

[Judi Lynn]

76. If you have the time, please post a source which illuminates your claim

there were "horrors found inside the Soviet Union after it was defeated by the Russian people themselves."

I've never heard a peep about these horrors myself, whatever they might be, and am very curious how this has evaded public disclosure.

If you're speaking of boiling political dissidents alive, of tortures unimaginable to ordinary people, then you only have to look as far as Uzbekistan and its leader, Islam Karimov, with whom _{George W. Bush} conducted a ton of business. He both brought Karimov to Washington to meet members of his administration, and sent high ranking officials to Uzbekistan, repeatedly, all the way up to Donald Rumsfeld, and head of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. _Bush never hinted there was anything going on there with which he would ever take issue. Not a word of condemnation of actual unspeakable "horrors."

[Braulio]

80. I'm glad you agreed with me

I think Bush is an evil man, so of course he would be friendly with other evil men. I thought anybody who was fairly educated would know the Soviet Union had massacred millions of people, and damaged the environment in such horrible ways, it's unspeakable. The problem wasn't only in Uzbekistan, it was all over the place. KGB dungeous everywhere, gulags, political prisoner camps...

And the Communist party honchos lived like millionaires. I had the opportunity to visit their dachas, and they were the most luxurious and decandent places you could ever imagine. And they bred whole villages to serve as their servants, as if it were feudal times.

[Judi Lynn]

81. I asked if you would be good enough to post a link to an honest source

for your claims regarding horrific findings of practiced atrocities left behind as evidence after the end of the USSR.

By the way, the U.S. clearly CONDONED the government of Uzbekistan, even plowing a ton of foreign aid into that country, stationing US military personel there.

They were completely aware of the horrendous actions taken by Islam Karimov in his own little kingdom. He wsn't even the President of Uzbekistan until 1991, well AFTER the end of the USSR.

[Braulio]

84. I guess you'll have to use Google

I didn't read about it on the internet. I was there. I saw it with my own eyes, talked to people. Some of the things I saw were horrible. And some of the stories I was told made it very evident the communist regime was truly evil.

[Judi Lynn]

85. If you make an assertion, you'll need more than your claim to substantiate it. n/t

[Ozymanithrax]

11. Mexico Cilty has been doing this for over a year.

It seems that there isn't enough water for 24 million people there.

[EFerrari]

13. Somewhere in California there is usually water rationing

but somehow it never make the Sinister International News.

[Freddie Stubbs]

41. Do htye actually have to cut off water there, or just prohibit things like watering lawns and

washing cars?

[EFerrari]

46. This article makes it sound as if the water will be shut off. n/t

[spanza]

47. Cut off

In Caracas, the plan is to cut off the water 48 hours a week. In provincial cities and small towns, it's more. This problem is the result of many factors.
1. the worst drought in 40 years
2. arbitrage between hydroelectricity production and consumption (water and electricity are both being rationed)
3. the lack of investment in infrastructure: no new reservoir has been constructed in the last 15 years and the ones that were projected for 2005-2006 are not ready yet.

[Freddie Stubbs]

48. I was asking about California

[Judi Lynn]

31. We've most certainly had water rationing in the Kansas City area, right in the middle of the U.S.

It isn't impressive seeing some clown trying to claim it's outrageous in another country.

[Dreamer Tatum]

16. The asshole has no problem rationing his oil to capitalists, though nt

[sabrina 1]

18. It's really terrible that all these brown people are sitting on all of

our oil. How dare they use our oil to benefit their own people.

[Dreamer Tatum]

20. That flash of light was the point arcing over your head nt

[eridani]

26. I'm often guilty of reductio ad absurdam without the sarcasm smilie myself. n/t

[LaPera]

27. " What will the rich fill their swimming pools with?”" Isn't that your main concern!

[Braulio]

34. Chavez doesn't ration oil to capitalists

Where did you hear that? about 96 % of Venezuela's oil is sold to capitalists.

[JackRiddler]

36. I think it was meant sarcastically... as in:

If Venezuela sells oil on the market, it's capitalist and therefore evil Chavez is a hypocrite. Yeah, da guy sez bad things about us but he likes our monnneee, see?! Etc. etc.

If Venezuela needs to ration water, it's communist and evil Chavez is a dirty tyrant, etc. etc.

The common pattern should be obvious.

[boppers]

19. Brilliant government!

Will Hugo go for 48 hours without water, himself?

I'm guessing no.

Will Hugo placate the masses by continuing to blame everybody but himself, accepting no fault?

I'm guessing yes.

[proteus_lives]

21. History teaches us that the more a leader proclaims to be of the people....

The more likely it is that he lives like a Tsar.

I'm guessing Hugo gave this order from a Jacuzzi.

[sabrina 1]

22. Well, at least you admit that your are just making

stuff up out of your apparently very fertile imagination. Most rightwing Chavez bashers claim to KNOW exactly what is going on in a country they have zero interest in, but have been indoctrinated to hate for no particular reason. Well, other than the fact that they won't just hand over their oil, and that the people there like the idea of choosing their own leaders, and don't take kindly to the US backing a coup d'etat to install their usual puppet government dictators.
If they didn't have all that oil, no one in America would be able to find them on a map. Come to think of it, the Venezuela bashers probably can't do that anyhow. The important thing is, as someone infamous once said, to 'catapult the propaganda'.

You're doing a nice job of spreading hatred for an oil producing country. Why don't you try telling us he's got WMDs. It wasn't true either, but it worked last time we wanted someone's oil.

[boppers]

25. "the Venezuela bashers probably can't do that anyhow"

It's bordered by Guyana, Brazil, and Columbia. Northern tip of South America.

Right wing bashers may be morons, but left wing "bashers" are folks like me who don't like shutting down the media, mandatory propaganda, and elimination of term limits, along with "decrees" from a king... even an elected king.

The solution to right wing insane dictators is NOT left wing insane dictators.

[sabrina 1]

28. If you were right about all those things, and not just repeating

the Western 'press' propaganda, I would agree with you. But you are wrong. There is more suppression of the press in this country than in Venezuela. Your own post demonstrates just how much propaganda there is here especially wne it comes to oil producing countries like Venezuela. As far as 'eliminating term limits', that was voted on in a democratic process and initially rejected as it was included with other less popular issues. When it was re-presented and stood alone, it passed. If only our own democratic processes were as open and un-influenced by Corporate bought votes, we might be justified in criticizing other nations.

Chavez did not make that law. And what is wrong with no term limits anyhow? We have that here, except for the WH and I don't really agree with it. Ireland, eg, never had any term limit for its president. The people get to choose.

He did not 'shut down the media' either. There is no 'mandatory propaganda' in Venezuela anymore than there is here. And there are no 'decrees from a king' elected or otherwise. You are reading Western Propaganda or the Venezuelan opposition propaganda from the minority elites who cannot get over the fact that their country is now treating all Venezuelans equally which means they no loonger can use the poor population as virtual slaves. Apparently you want to believe it or you would already know how biased it is and how deceptive, when it comes to Venezuela.

Speaking of 'decrees from a king' ~ we had our own 'king' issue a decree last Fall, demanding hundreds of billions of dollars from the treasury, and demanding that there be 'no oversight' as to how it would be spent. The American people objected and let their government know how they felt about it. But, alas, we poor peasants have little say, unlike the people of Venezuela, in what our government does. So King Henry Paulson, not even elected btw, got exactly what he demanded in his three page decree and the people were told to stfu about it and they did.

America has its own royalty who run this country. We are in no position right now to criticize anyone. Venezuela is doing fine, poverty decreased by 22%. Health care for all (boy, do I envy them having a leader who believes in that and gets it passed) free education for all Venezuelans as their president believes in an educated population. Hospitals and Colleges being built around the country, and women being promoted to powerful positions with something we still don't have here, equal pay for equal work demanded by their president. He hasn't been able to get some of his initiatives on women's rights passed yet, but he's still trying.

He's not perfect, no one is, but his people approve of him by over 60% still. And that is all that matters since it is their country and they get to decide how good or bad their government is. We, in the US, don't recognize their right to do that. So the people of Venezuela, after the US backed coup in 2002 which they foiled, don't really trust us. I can't say I blame them. Our record of invading other oil producing or strategic countries, does not inspire trust.

[spanza]

50. Ley Habilitante for 18 months = the executive power rules/legislates by decree for 1 1/2 years

without having to go to the legislative power for changing the laws. The Parliament gave him this power in 2007, for the second time.

[EFerrari]

67. And yet he remains popular and will have to face the voters.

I guess it's too bad that the Venezuelan legislature doesn't have as much power as our august body does in the United States.

That means the bribes go to fewer hands. And in this economy, that's unfortunate.

[spanza]

68. Interesting

to see your reaction is that to legislate by decree is not a good thing and yet he's popular, will face voters... and in the US the legislative power is corrupted anyway. I agree with that.

[Braulio]

35. Venezuela has had democracy for many years

Actually, Chavez is just another Venezuelan President, they've had elections and democracy for a long time. Venezuela hasn't just handed over their oil in a long time either. They helped found OPEC about 40 years ago.

Today, Venezuela has the second highest inflation in the world, a very high crime rate, serious problems with their health system, electric power is running low, and their soccer team isn't that good.

Chavez likes to threaten going to war with Colombia once in a while, but Colombia sells gas, electric power and food to Venezuela, so I seriously doubt he'll do anything about it.

Overall, I would say it's more of press thing, they like to write a lot about controversial figures. Israel is a lot worse, they really abuse human rights, and yet the US considers it a good "ally" - even though Israel has never done an iota to help the USA when it was fighting a war. Never saw an Israeli in Korea, nor Vietnam, nor Iraq, nor Afghanistan. They don't even send peacekeepers to Haiti.

[spanza]

49. Democracy in Venezuela

started in 1945 with a leftist revolution (Revolucion de Octubre, trienio). The military regained power 3 years later. In 1958, they lost it definitely and, since then (51 years), Venezuela has been a democratic country.

Free education through college and free universal health care started in 1960. In fact, almost all of our public universities and hospitals were built between 1960 and 1977.

Pérez Alfonso (Venezuela) with alTariki (KSA) were the founding fathers of the OPEC.

"Venezuela was the first country to move towards the establishment of OPEC in the 1960s ... In 10-14 September 1960, at the initiative of the Venezuelan Energy and Mines minister Juan Pablo Pérez Alfonzo and the Saudi Arabian Energy and Mines minister Abdullah al-Tariki, the governments of Iraq, Iran, Kuwait, Saudi Arabia and Venezuela met in Baghdad to discuss ways to increase the price of the crude oil produced by their respective countries. OPEC was founded in Baghdad, triggered by a 1960 law instituted by American President Dwight Eisenhower that forced quotas on Venezuelan and Persian Gulf oil imports in favor of the Canadian and Mexican oil industries. Eisenhower cited national security, land access to energy supplies, at times of war. When this led to falling prices for oil in these regions, Venezuela's president Romulo Betancourt reacted by seeking an alliance with oil producing Arab nations as a preemptive strategy to maintain the continued autonomy and profitability of Venezuela's oil resources.

As a result, OPEC was founded to unify and coordinate members' petroleum policies. Original OPEC members include Iran, Iraq, Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, and Venezuela."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OPEC

It's sad to see that every single debate concerning Venezuela automatically falls in the black or white logic.

[Braulio]

51. It's called re-inventing history

I'm sure you read 1984 by George Orwell.

[spanza]

60. Oh yes... a prophecy! nt.

[Braulio]

73. Nah, it's already happening

When we see discussion by communists attributing to the Chavez government things which happened 40-50 years ago, this is re-writing history.

If it makes you feel better, the evil doers in "the capitalist West" do it too. For example, Israeli Zionists and their American allies have been able to write a version of history in which the Zionist Jews who invaded Palestine are "victims defending themselves", and this hogwash is the belief held by most Americans. And then Americans wonder why they were attacked on 9/11...they don't realize their "history" is a comic book.

[boppers]

23. Well, not always.

Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi was a tad different.

I'm guessing Hugo isn't willing to live in poverty to show solidarity, though.

[JackRiddler]

37. I always rely on platitudes for judgments of empirical questions.

[sabrina 1]

24. Well, since we're playing guessing games.

I'm guessing that Arnold is not going to go for 48 hours without water himself either.

And I doubt that Arnold is going to blame the drought, a natural phenomenon, on himself either. Are leaders to blame for droughts? Or just leaders of oil producing countries who want to keep control of their own oil?

As for blaming the unnecessary use of water when there IS a drought on people who insist they cannot live without all their luxuries, I think we do that here als. I remember a few years ago when there was a drought where I lived, anyone who watered their lawn found a picture of it in the local newspaper the following week asking people if they thought that green lawn looked appealing.

But as always, when we do it, it's okay. But in our weekly Chavez bashing threads, anything Chavez does, until he agrees to cooperate with Big Oil (then we will all love the guy) even if it's the same thing we do, MUST be evil.

I wonder why we never have threads about one of our charming allies in the ME, a guy called Karamov from Uzbekistan, known for his methods of torture and the genocide of his own people merely for peacefully demonstrating, among other things.

We pay him millions of dollars a year, prop him up and help keep his own people from removing him from power. Not once have I seen an article condemning this vile, criminal in the US press. But then, he is cooperative with the US so we turn a blind eye to his evil behavior.

But nearly every week we have a Chavez bashing thread. Amazing how effective propaganda is.

[boppers]

30. Arnold is not immune.

Leaders *are* to blame for poor planning.

Leaders *are* to blame when the rich have their daschas with perfect lawns, while the poor, living in a desert (much of California), lack, uhm... lawns? (Really?)

What a crime. Watch me care while I play a violin. (I'm an Arizonan by birth, I didn't have a lawn for 31 years).

As far as Chavez goes, he's done some great things, and some horrible things. People who deny either the great, or horrible, are the problem on DU.

Uzbekistan is another issue, it's so ugly as to defy imagination. It's "attaching car batteries to testicles/labia" ugly, and I agree that we need more coverage on it.

None of this forgives Chavez, though. Saying "OMG, look over there!" doesn't remove memory of crimes, be those crimes corporate theft, government theft, or crony theft.

[EFerrari]

44. Repeating over and over that Chavez has done "horrible thiings" doesn't make it true.

And insulting him over water rationing is a little ridiculous because he didn't plan Caracas and he's done more to promote equity than just about any Venezuelan leader.

[boppers]

70. How many people were murdered because of Chavez?

..or is murder acceptable to you?

[sabrina 1]

56. I think it works the other way.

We point at Chavez so we don't 'look over there' at our criminal allies elsewhere. Obviously there is something the US wants from Venezuela. And they see Chavez as standing in their way, which is why they backed that coup in 2002. That was so wrong, it goes without saying. Why not back a coup against Karamov? The people there would probably take him out themselves, if it weren't for the US' support for him. And that is criminal imo.

I know Chavez has done some good and some not so good things. He's human and Venezuela had a multitude of problems when he took over. How about the US cooperating with these countries, helping to establish the democracies we say we support? That's what used to puzzle me when I believed the propaganda that the US supports freedom and democracy. The facts prove otherwise. The US prefers rightwing dictators because they care less about their people and will sell out for their own personal benefit.

We have a tragic and criminal history in South America. Regardless of what anyone thinks of any of the recently elected leaders in S.A. countries, they ARE rejecting the history of dictatorship and death squads and the oppression of indigenous people and their traditions and electing people who want to break away from the Capitalist overlords of the past. The

I am for that. y have a right to do so. It isn't about Chavez himself, it's about the fear that the US has not moved away from it's criminal past in that region of the world. And proof positive of that is who we support and call 'allies'. Nothing has changed and for Americans who do not want their tax dollars being spent on the torturing and assassination people in other countries, Venezuela is an example of how they do it. Demonize any leader who appears to be 'left'. Use the words 'commie' and 'marxist' and 'dictator' often, then back a coup and tell the public the 'people wanted new leadership'.

And here on DU there are several people who appear to support this government's criminal history in those countries and are perfectly fine with falling for the tactics to get support for a continuation of those policies. Maybe they are just ignorant of our history there and are merely useful idiots. But today there is no excuse for such ignorance with facts so easily available.

[JackRiddler]

38. Weekly Chavez bashing thread? There's never been a day without, has there?

He's like the red flag to a bull.

[gooey]

29. That's hilarious.

Capitalism is the cause for a "severe drought"?

Yeah

And Katrina was punishment from God.

What a tool.

[boppers]

32. I doubt you meant it this way, but that kind of thought is real there.

They still pray to a goddess called Mary to intervene in... well... everything.

The culture is steeped in such thinking.

[JackRiddler]

40. Does capitalism have an effect on how water is used?

[Braulio]

52. I'm not sure about capitalism, but a market system helps

It's better to have a market system for water, whereby users pay for it, so they don't waste it. Socialists (sometimes known as communists) have a tendency to ignore market forces. This is one reason why communist nations such as Cuba, the USSR, and China have historically suffered from shortages and low quality goods.

[JackRiddler]

55. This only works in a market of relative equals...

If you have a huge gap between economic classes, paying for water may discipline the middle income group in the way you hypothesize, but is likely to shut out the poor and mean nothing at all to the rich, who will still use up a large fraction of the available water to fill their swimming pools and fountains and maintain large lawns.

Doesn't California have a market system? Why do they also suffer droughts?

As for Cuba, would you like to compare its shortages and standard of living to the rest of the Carribean and Central America, who are blessed with market systems?

The market theory fails especially with limited natural resources, like fresh water. Infrastructure maintenance makes some difference, but you can't just gear up a water factory to meet demand. Without control, the rich can hog the poor out of the resource altogether.

[sabrina 1]

64. Stop making sense, don't you know the fabulous effects

the 'market' has had around the globe on people's lives? These defenders of the ideology that 'the market will solve every problem' are fascinating to me, especially in light of the world wide collapse of the market driven economy and the evidence everywhere, including right here in the US of the disastrous results of unrestrained Capitalism on ordinary people.

It IS good for the top 1% and that appears to be good enough for its defenders.

[JackRiddler]

66. Ha! And about 95% of the hardcore market cult aren't in the top 1% who benefit

And a good part of that 1% don't even believe in it.

Ideology!

[Braulio]

75. California doesn't have a real market system.

Also, there's nothing wrong with the government providing the poor with a subsidy to make sure they can afford water. Other schemes are possible, which use a market, but distort it to ensure the poor get a break, such as charging very little for the first tranche used (such as the first 3000 liters per month), then raising the price as more water is consumed. This of course makes those who want to fill a swimming pool pay through the nose.

[JackRiddler]

77. So you say...

but your alternatives are not strict market systems, either, they contain "acknowledged" distortions. So in effect you are acknowledging that a pure market system produces bad results socioeconomically and would not solve the problem of water waste, though theoretically it might deliver more water in a given year (perhaps without regard to future consequences, however).

[Braulio]

78. There's no such thing as a pure market system

Human nature tends to distort it. This is why anti-monopoly legislation is needed. Although I'm not Christian, I do admire that guy Jesus, and I support putting in mechanisms to reduce misery and so on. A system with an escalating charge for the end user seems like a good idea, but I'm not a water management expert.

I do believe there's going to be a boom in Venezuela for those who own water trucks - the question is, will the government try to regulate that market and kill it off? Communists tend to do that, this is why communist societies end up with scarcity of this, or that. Poor planning doesn't help either.

[JackRiddler]

79. Curious how the countries with the highest acknowledged standards of living in the world...

are often called socialist, although they're actually social democratic.

As you say, no pure market exists. That's sort of my point. They are social arrangements, therefore always designed, and inevitably regulated, all on behalf of given purposes and interests. So to criticize Venezuela simply for not letting "the market" do its efficient thing still doesn't say very much.

You're showing your colors when you suggest VZ is "communist," by the way.

[Braulio]

82. My colours?

Venezuela isn't communist. Surveys show the majority of the population supports private property. However, those in the government (the PSUV) can be called communists. They say they're building "socialism of the 21st century", but wear red, use a "Nation, Socialism or Death" slogan, quote Marx and Engels, and otherwise act quite to the left of moderate European socialists.

I would say they also tend to be hungry, which explains the corruption. In Africa, it's called "it's my time to eat". I observe them with interest, traveled there many years ago, and have friends there. My forecast is they will fail unless they shift to the center, and become more moderate (say Lula da Silva style).

[JackRiddler]

83. I lived a long time among the European social democrats...

and they didn't find it difficult to quote Marx and Engels and seemed to be comfortable with their country having implemented most of the Communist Manifesto's 13 point program.

You say "surveys" show the VZ majority support "private property," whatever that means. (For example, I support private property - houses, stores, farms - but would expropriate the Wall Street banks and arrest their executives pending indictment for their great fraud on the world in a heartbeat.)

I say elections show the VZ majority have consistently supported the PSUV since 1998 despite the unrelenting attack of that country's oligarchy on their revolution, with the support of a dangerous foreign imperialist power.

If hungry explains the "corruption," then explain to me how the fattest men on earth knowingly placed fraudulent bets worth more than all the assets on earth, and then successfully captured the Treasury to make the taxpayers pay for it for the rest of time?

[EFerrari]

45. You do know that in some parts of Latin America water was privatized

with the help of the IMF and the people had to fight like hell to get their own water back?

No, Chavez is not a tool at all.

[sabrina 1]

62. And of course, that is not what he said, but don't

look for a source that is not slanted, it might interfere with what you want to believe. What he actually meant was that SINCE THERE IS A drought, selfish people who refuse to make a few sacrifices only make it worse. Same thing Officials say here when there is a drought or other catastrophe that requires a little sacrifice from all citizens, at least until it passes.

[Braulio]

74. Venezuela leads the world in beer consumption

Since they happen to be sloshed so often, I'm sure nobody will mind if some of them happen to skip a shower or two. However, my advice to the government is to put on commercials showing how easy it is to take a quick shower. That should about do it.

[dipsydoodle]

39. Has this been moved

because its not May of next year yet ? :shrug: