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rabs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-30-10 10:04 PM
Original message
Colombia kicks over the negotiating table
Edited on Fri Jul-30-10 10:08 PM by rabs


Article by Bernardo Alvarez, Venezuelan ambassador to United States, in Foreign Policy magazine.

Article is liable to make our (LatAm forum) Tea Party Chapter members :cry: :cry: :cry:

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2010/07/29/colombia_kicks_over_the_negotiating_table

Edit -- (This is in response to the Washington Post's misinformation/lies packed editorial.)
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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-30-10 10:31 PM
Response to Original message
1. Be sure to read Diehard's comment on page 2. Very good comment by a Colombian.
I think Santos is in on it. But Venezuela's ambassador can't say that, of course. I haven't figured out for sure what I think the game is. When you put it all together, it sure looks like a scenario for instigating a war, with Santos just biding his time until he gets his cue from his buds in the Pentagon. Letting Uribe take the heat, in setting it up (the border incident trigger), playing his cards close to his chest. I don't trust him at all. I think he's worse than Uribe. Uribe is a criminal. Santos is a Rumsfeld.

I might not think this if it weren't for the U.S. military buildup in the region. I would think that Uribe's wild charges were just cover for something--a distraction--or perhaps part of a "free trade for the rich" effort in Congress (yet another effort to prevent South American economic integration in favor of the U.S.)

But I'm worried, very worried, about a possible U.S. proxy war and that seguing into another U.S. oil war.
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Downwinder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-30-10 10:49 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. Lots of pushes right now.
here is Honduras's

Ortéz Colindres's Tongue and the OAS Vote, Oscar Estrada
http://www.quotha.net/node/1094
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rabs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-30-10 11:02 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. I think Diehard is our friend Dreyfus



if not, they both have the exact same style of writing. Dreyfus called me last week and said he had been unable to log back into DU. Would not accept his password or something like that.

As for what uribito's game might be, he is running out of time. He has only eight days left, but as Judi said a few days ago, uribito is crazy enough to pull off something crazy and dangerous.

Meantime Santos has been far away from the fray, this week visiting Argentina, Chile, Peru, Mexico and today was in Haiti. One would think that with such a crisis going on, an incoming president would be back in Bogota keeping close tabs on a dicey situation that he will have to deal with in eight days.

----------------------

Some Colombian speculation:

A border or sea incident with Venezuela is manufactured. Uribe declares a "state of internal commotion." He begins emergency rule by decree. The inauguration of JM Santos is postponed, or canceled should there be hostilities. Uribe continues to rule.

Farfetched? Yes, but that has been making the rounds on some Colombian blogs the past couple of weeks.

Late last or early this month the uribista government actually tried to have a state of "internal commotion" declared. It was in the news about two days, then the attempt was dropped with no official explanation and the story disappeared from the Colombian frontpages.

So, quien sabe what is going on in these final days of uribismo?









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Bacchus39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-30-10 11:32 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. I actually agree, if as the Ven foreign minister claims, the invasion is imminent
then Santos should be in Colombia making preparations.

as far as Uribe continuing, thats really dumb.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-31-10 03:47 AM
Response to Reply #3
5. Your friend can request a new password
if his old one is not working. He will get a software generated one immediately and then he can reset it himself once he is logged in.
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naaman fletcher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-31-10 09:41 PM
Response to Reply #3
16. urbitos game
"As for what uribito's game might be, he is running out of time. He has only eight days left, but as Judi said a few days ago, uribito is crazy enough to pull off something crazy and dangerous. "

Another possibility is that he has no game at all. As president he has simply done his job and submitted evidence that Venezuela is harboring terrorists. Other than that he is not prepared for war nor made war mongering statements as Chavez has. He probably just intends to ride into the sunset on a wave of tremendous popularity.
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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-01-10 11:18 AM
Response to Reply #16
24. "As president he has simply done his job...". LOL!
He's done his job according to Bush--murder, terrorize lots of poor people, kill off the union leadership, displace 5 million peasant farmers, create a culture of death and exploitation, on behalf of Monsanto, Chiquita, Exxon Mobil, Dyncorp, Blackwater...

And I guess that's what the rich elite in Colombia wants--the only Colombians who can safely answer pollsters' questions, and safely vote in their own interest without rightwing thugs hanging around the polling booth. He's so very popular in Colombia, where the rich are salivating over their prospects for "free trade for the rich," and the military glories in $7 BILLION in U.S. taxpayer money.

Did his job. Right. Slave labor force in place. Countryside cleansed of peasant farmers. The U.S. military enforcers of "free trade for the rich" ensconced at seven military bases, with use of all civilian infrastructure and total diplomatic immunity. Cocaine still flowing from the protected drug lords.

I wonder what Santos' assignments are.
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-01-10 12:57 PM
Response to Reply #24
25. He has done a good job of getting rid of a lot of poor people, as you point out.
He has also done his best to go after the entire Supreme Court and other stray officials who have given judgements which went against his plans, aspirations.

He is under the threat of being totally excused in a very short time for his use of his secret service to spy on those judges, officials through wiretaps, and deeper surveillance right now. As those of us who research know, there has been a tremendous scandal in Colombia over it, as well as his "false positives."

In a country which kills media more than any other country now, per capita, other than Honduras, there just aren't that many people reporting on serious issues. The journalists THEMSELVES have revealed they "self censor" for self-defense. They most certainly DON'T get the "news" out. Besides that, the Santos family has a HUGE influence on how the news stories run in Colombia, since they own the largest paper, a news magazine, and many smaller papers, radio stations, etc.

We also have read the huge poor sector are so damned poor there are simply no land lines to their houses, and they DON'T get polled for Uribe's famous popularity. Nor do all the homeless people the government-linked paras have driven out of their homes and chased into the void without work, without shelter, while they take possession of their farms, possessions, driving up the desperate populations in the cities which don't have enough jobs, and also streaming across the border and becoming added to the responsibilities of both Venezuela and Ecuador.

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naaman fletcher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-01-10 01:05 PM
Response to Reply #25
26. Yet he is wildly popular,
And crime has plummeted under his Presidency.

And by the way, it is FARC who is driving people out of their homes, supported by Chavez, who does nothing as crime rises through the roof.
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Bacchus39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-01-10 01:16 PM
Response to Reply #26
28. 80% job approval n/t
s
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-01-10 02:33 PM
Response to Reply #26
30. I reiterate, the REAL level of popularity is unknown since the vast poor sector
is TOO POOR to have landlines.
~snip~
Mockus’ defeat may be seen as a combination of several factors. For one, opinion polls are unreliable in Colombia. Pollsters tend to reach only middle and upper class urban residents. Poor and rural Colombians, who tend to not have access to landlines or other standard survey methods, are rarely surveyed.
More:
http://thewip.net/contributors/2010/06/fundamental_change_in_colombia.html

~snip~
the opinion polls so regularly quoted in both national and international media are suspect, being based on landline interviews with 1000 or so inhabitants of the four largest cities. In the context of widespread paramilitary terror it would be foolish to assume respondents being honest in a telephone interview with an unknown interlocutor. That most Colombians do not own landlines is another factor making these polls unreliable, according to the author, in addition to the fact that the polling companies refuse to poll in rural areas.
More:
http://lse-ideas.blogspot.com/2010/04/book-review-revolutionary-social-change.html

~snip~
The polls are conducted only in the cities and using landline telephones. This eliminates many families in the lower stratas and all people in the pueblos and out in the country. The people who are polled are the ones who have most to win with Uribe's policies and who are constantly exposed to Uribe-supporting media. The polls are only showing that a 60% of those who are polled support Uribe....not that a 60% of the polutation as a WHOLE support Uribe...
More:
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:T49fhagjpl4J:poorbuthappy.com/colombia/post/delegative-democracy-the-case-of-colombia1/+Colombia+polls+unreliable+poor+not+polled+no+phones+landlines&cd=6&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

On 13 March 2008, Colombia’s biggest-selling daily newspaper, El Tiempo, reported that Uribe had won a record 84 per cent approval rating in a Gallup poll. The poll was extensive, with one thousand Colombians in different parts of the country being interviewed. However, an examination of how such samples are conducted and tallied casts doubt on whether they supply an accurate picture of public sentiment in Colombia.

What is seldom understood about the vast majority of these polls is that the opinions are gathered through telephone interviews via landlines. This methodology is highly problematic for several reasons.

First, many Colombians do not have landlines. While cell-phone use is widespread in Colombia, simple infrastructures such as landlines are not. Not only villages and medium-sized towns, but also some major cities, lack the infrastructure to ensure even electricity on a daily basis, let alone fixed-line optical networks.

Second, interviewees can easily be identified through their landline status. This lack of anonymity inevitably counts against the expression of negative opinions of the president and government.

Third, polls such as the above claim to represent the opinions of a diverse range of Colombians from around the country, yet interviewees are frequently drawn only from the wealthier districts of Colombia’s four largest cities—Bogotá, Cali, Medellín, and Barranquilla. Unwarranted prominence is given to the views of a minute percentage of the population who have access to landlines. Since Uribe’s election as president, opinion polls in Colombia have focused on a handful of dominant urban centres, ignoring the countryside, where many of his most committed opponents live. As one media outlet so brazenly put it, “Colombian pollsters rarely survey the whole country because they consider responses in war-afflicted rural areas unreliable.”13


Lastly, it must be noted that the timing of March’s Gallup poll was convenient as regards promoting an impression of popular support for the state. Polling took place within a forty-eight-hour period immediately preceding one of the largest anti-state rallies in Colombia’s recent history. The interviews were conducted between 4 and 6 March, shortly after the killing of one of the FARC’s most prominent leaders, Comandante Raúl Reyes, during a Colombian military incursion into Ecuadorian territory—a significant victory in the eyes of the elite. Ironically, as polling ended, a quarter of a million Colombians, many of whom defied death threats, held marches and rallies around the country on 6 March in a nationwide day of protest against state and paramilitary atrocities under the Uribe administration.

When a geographically wider poll sample was taken weeks later, Uribe’s support fell markedly. In May 2008, one thousand citizens were polled in not four but seventeen of Colombia’s primary urban centres; Uribe’s support dropped by almost 20 per cent. This slump in approval corroborated the research of myself and others. I have repeatedly found that the further one travels away from the handful of Colombia’s more affluent urban centres—and the closer one gets to the barrios, rural communities, villages, and territories—greater opposition is expressed towards the state and the current administration. The activist and economist Héctor Mondragón has consistently maintained that Colombians throughout the country have remained opposed to Uribe during his time in office. While it cannot be argued that there is mass opposition to the state, the overwhelming support for Uribe indicated in opinion polls is highly questionable.
More:
http://www.worlddialogue.org/content.php?id=433

~~~~~ ~~~~~ ~~~~~ ~~~~~ ~~~~~

For you to maintain it's FARC driving people out of their homes leaves everyone aware you know NOTHING about Colombian events, nor politics, nor have you bothered to spend ANY respectable time looking for the answers. You haven't even made it to the starting line, sadly.

Uribe's OWN COUSIN, Mario Uribe Escobar was recently discovered to have been buying properties from the paramilitaries which they had stolen from poor Colombians, and it has been going on a long time.

You don't even READ the material people have posted here, with links. My God. You should have the good sense to make a superficial effort to grasp the subject first before dreaming of discussing it.

~snip~
Founded in Urabá twelve years ago, the Peace Community of San José de Apartadó has attempted to resist this dispossession through a declaration of neutrality and intense community organizing. Even though the Peace Community has suffered nearly 200 deaths and dozens of displacements since its founding, its members remain steadfast in their efforts. As Community member Sandra told me, “we continue resisting what the government does against the civilian population to vacate the land.” Sandra recognizes that not just the government is behind the displacement. “This is a strategic area for all of the armed actors,” she explains. “We say that the war in Colombia has a name: natural resources – water, coal, gold, nickel, wood and others. The war exists in order to steal land from the campesino (peasant farmer).”
More:
http://www.thewip.net/contributors/2009/09/colombias_war_hes_giving_our_c.html

Push to Produce More Palm-Oil for Biodiesel Fuels Violence in Colombia
Sunday June 10, 2007

The Middle East is not the only place where the battle to control fuel and energy sources has turned deadly. In Colombia, a governmental initiative to produce more palm oil for biodiesel has led to widespread violence, illegal seizures of family farms, and clear-cutting of tropical forests in an effort to secure more acreage for palm-oil plantations.
According to aid organizations working in Colombia, paramilitary gangs are seizing land for biofuel conglomerates that are seeking “green” profits, and using threats and violence to evict the legitimate owners.

"The paramilitaries are not subtle when it comes to taking land," said Dominic Nutt of Christian Aid, in an interview with The Times of London. "They simply visit a community and tell landowners, 'If you don't sell to us, we will negotiate with your widow.'
More:
http://environment.about.com/b/2007/06/10/colombias-push-to-produce-more-palm-oil-for-biodiesel-fuels-violence-land-grabs.htm

New gangs run Colombians off their land
The government says paramilitary groups no longer exist. But more and more people are being displaced.
THE WORLDDecember 03, 2008|Chris Kraul, Kraul is a Times staff writer.

TUMACO, COLOMBIA — The Colombian government insists that paramilitary gangs are extinct. Try telling that to Antonio Domingo, a poor Afro-Colombian who was rousted from his home in the dead of night in August and told to leave town or be killed.

Antonio, 30, who declined to give his last name for fear of reprisal, said armed and uniformed fighters who identified themselves as members of a paramilitary force called the Black Eagles gave residents minutes to leave San Jose, their Pacific coast hamlet.

"We had furniture, chickens, yucca and plantains, but lost it all," said Antonio, interviewed at a camp for displaced people outside this port town in the southwestern state of Narino. "They killed a friend of mine in front of us for no reason, maybe to make a point."

Antonio, his wife and infant son are part of an alarming upsurge this year of displaced people in Colombia. According to CODHES, a human rights group based in Bogota, the capital, 270,675 additional internal refugees were documented in the first half of this year, 41% more than during the same period last year.

The wave of uprooted humanity is matched by a parallel surge in the number of fighters, according to a study released last week by the New Rainbow Coalition, a peace group also based in Bogota. More than 100 new gangs have been formed, including as many as 10,000 fighters, and have a presence in one out of five Colombian counties, mostly rural ones.

Paramilitary groups proliferated in the 1980s and 1990s as defensive forces financed by farmers and cattlemen to battle leftist guerrillas. Many of the fighters turned to crime, seizing land and trafficking in drugs, before laying down their arms in a government-brokered demobilization completed in 2006.

The reemerging armed gangs are wreaking havoc in Narino state. They are vying with guerrillas and drug traffickers for control of a zone that boasts ideal coca growing conditions as well as a labyrinthine coastline offering hundreds of concealed, mangrove-studded inlets from which to ship drugs to U.S. markets.

The new paramilitary groups, like the rebels and traffickers, often force people such as Antonio from their homes and farms to take possession of land as war booty and to clear the area of potential enemy sympathizers. With an estimated 3 million people having been displaced, Colombia is second only to Sudan in the number of its internal refugees.
More:
http://articles.latimes.com/2008/dec/03/world/fg-paras3

~~~~~
COLOMBIA: Paramilitaries Don't Want to Take the Blame Alone

From prison, the eight sent a letter last week to those who were once among their potential military targets: the leaders of the centre-left Alternative Democratic Pole (PDA), Gustavo Petro, former presidential candidate for that party, and Iván Cepeda, congressman-elect and spokesperson for the Movement of Victims of State Crimes (MOVICE).

What prompted the letter was a meeting between Petro and Colombia's conservative president-elect, the former Defence minister Juan Manuel Santos, who has declared he will set up a "government of national unity."

Petro proposed joint efforts to resolve the priority problems from the internal war, such as reparations for the victims and returning the land seized from millions of rural people displaced from their homes - which some private studies estimate to be more than 10 percent of the 42 million Colombians.

--
THE SIGNATORIES

The eight paramilitary leaders who signed the letter carry more than 42,000 crimes on their shoulders. The are: Freddy Rendón, whose nom de guerre is El Alemán, Rodrigo Pérez (Julián Bolívar), Arnubio Triana (Botalón), Jorge Iván Laverde (El Iguano), Álvaro Sepúlveda (Don César), Edwar Cobos (Diego Vecino), Jesús Ignacio Roldán (Monoleche) and Raúl Emilio Hasbún (Pedro Bonito).
--

The ultra-right paramilitary groups reached a pact with President Álvaro Uribe to demobilise and, for a partial confession of their crimes, limiting the maximum prison sentence to eight years, under a legal framework known as the Justice and Peace Law.

But the Constitutional Court ruled that the demobilised paramilitaries could only obtain that legal benefit if they confessed "the complete truth" - and things grew complicated.

Now those former combatants are no longer willing to be the only ones taking the blame. They say they are truly repentant, and want reconciliation, as the law states.

"We are very attentive to and very interested in participating and contributing," they stated in reference to Petro's proposal to Santos.

The former paramilitaries wrote that the "real truth" is not yet known about the war they joined more than 25 years ago. Their archenemies, the leftist guerrillas, emerged 46 years ago.

They write that their demobilisation and disarmament, and "the half truth and half justice," will be "worth nothing" if those who "personify" the paramilitary phenomenon remain invisible in political and economic power, "evading, at any price," their responsibility.

The armed groups are merely "the shock force," "the tip of the iceberg," of the "macro" phenomenon of paramilitarism, they said, noting that as long as the "true scope" remains hidden, "paramilitarism, offspring of consented impunity," will reproduce.

Below their signatures they put their fingerprints, in the style of the messages from the now-dead Colombian drug kingpin Pablo Escobar (1949-1993).

They agree that peace should be built with justice, truth and reparations, but reject a commitment in which the blame falls solely upon those who carried out the actions.

"Land speculation, seizure and concentration of agricultural property, violence and displacement in the countryside, and the consequent social injustice against the rural people, entail and involve situations still unknown," they state.

The men point out that the "small number of two dozen former commanders" of the paramilitary forces cannot be the "shadow owners" of the at least four million hectares "of highest commercial value" today in the hands of the mafia. They add that the land should be returned to the displaced persons.

The former leaders underscore that the people deployed in paramilitarism include "politicians, business leaders, high-level officials, large contractors, foreign investors and members of the public security forces," who should be brought to justice as well.
More:
http://chauprade.com/general/colombia-paramilitaries-dont-want-to-take-the-blame-alone-11-07-10
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Bacchus39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-01-10 02:54 PM
Response to Reply #30
31. if the polls are unreliable, then it means poor Colombians voted for Santos overwhelmingly
a seemingly neck and neck race turned into blowout. and if the numerous surveys provided often by Rabs were only polling middle and upperclass Colombians then the poor Colombians were behind Santos. as he is Uribe's successor you could infer they also are in favor of Uribe
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naaman fletcher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-01-10 03:05 PM
Response to Reply #31
34. Let me guess..
That is somehow proof that the elections were stolen, or something like that. What you won't get is an explanation of why all candidates, including Mockus, campaigned on continuing Uribe's security policies.
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naaman fletcher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-01-10 02:59 PM
Response to Reply #30
32. lol
"For you to maintain it's FARC driving people out of their homes leaves everyone aware you know NOTHING about Colombian events"


Actually, I just posted a number of stories about FARC driving people out of their homes. You only post random blogs with no evidence behind them. We have been through this before. The fact is that crime is way, way down in Colombia over the last 8 years. And unlike you, I actually travel in Latin America, instead of just sitting around reading blogs.
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naaman fletcher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-01-10 03:03 PM
Response to Reply #30
33. From your post:
"Paramilitary groups proliferated in the 1980s and 1990s as defensive forces financed by farmers and cattlemen to battle leftist guerrillas. Many of the fighters turned to crime, seizing land and trafficking in drugs, before laying down their arms in a government-brokered demobilization completed in 2006."
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-01-10 03:12 PM
Response to Reply #33
35. The paramilitaries are NOT demobilezed according to all human rights groups
and Colombian relatives of people they have murdered since the "demobilization."

From Amnesty:
Justice & Peace Law and Decree 128
Since 2003, paramilitary groups, responsible for the vast majority of human rights violations in Colombia for over a decade, have been involved in a government-sponsored “demobilization” process. More than 25,000 paramilitaries have supposedly demobilized under a process which has been criticized by AI and other Colombian and international human rights groups, as well as by the OHCHR and the IACHR. The process is lacking in effective mechanisms for justice and in its inability to ensure that paramilitary members actually cease violent activities.

In fact, paramilitarism has not been dismantled, it has simply been “re-engineered.” Many demobilized combatants are being encouraged to join “civilian informer networks,” to provide military intelligence to the security forces, and to become “civic guards”. Since many areas of Colombia have now been wrested from guerrilla control, and paramilitary control established in many of these areas, they no longer see a need to have large numbers of heavily-armed uniformed paramilitaries.

However, evidence suggests that many paramilitary structures remain virtually intact and that paramilitaries continue to kill. Amnesty International continues to document human rights violations committed by paramilitary groups, sometimes operating under new names, and often in collusion with the security forces.

AI would welcome a demobilization process which would lead to the effective dismantling of paramilitarism and end the links between the security forces and paramilitaries. But the current demobilization process is unlikely to guarantee the effective dismantling of such structures. In fact, it is facilitating the re-emergence of paramilitarism and undermining the right of victims to truth, justice and reparation.

Amnesty International is deeply concerned that the law governing the demobilization of armed groups in Colombia is wholly inadequate. It threatens to guarantee the impunity of those responsible for heinous and widespread human rights atrocities, not only paramilitaries, but also those who have backed the paramilitary such as wealthy landowners, and government and military officials. Furthermore, the demobilization law may not rid the country of the scourge of illegal armed activity and human rights abuses against the civilian population. In fact, it may make the situation worse by:
  • Providing de facto amnesties for paramilitaries and guerrillas responsible for serious human rights abuses and violations;
  • Perpetuating impunity for human rights abusers and violators thereby undermining the rule of law in Colombia;
  • Failing to guarantee the effective dismantling of paramilitary structures by focusing; solely on individual combatants;
  • Failing to expose those Colombian security forces, government officials, and private citizens who have supported and benefited from the activities of the paramilitary;
  • Failing to establish a full and independent judicial process to oversee the demobilization process;
    Neglecting to respect the rights of victims of human rights violations and abuses to truth, justice and reparation.
More:
http://www.amnestyusa.org/countries/colombia/demobilization/justice_and_peace.html
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naaman fletcher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-01-10 03:15 PM
Response to Reply #35
36. Amnesty..
1. I never said things were perfect, but that they are much better. This post does not refute that.
2. Do you think Amnesty is a legit organization? I have noticed in the past that you have ignored what Amnesty has to say about the Venezuelan government.
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naaman fletcher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-01-10 02:06 PM
Response to Reply #25
29. Why?
Why did very major candidate, including the candidate that you supported campaign on a promise to continue Uribe's security policies? Perhaps because they are wildly popular and successful? Do you have anything besides "reports" you have read on some blog to explain?
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naaman fletcher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-01-10 01:07 PM
Response to Reply #24
27. Please...
Murder and terror are way down in Colombia since 2002. That is a simple fact. He is also wildly popular. I meet Colombians all over my travels both rich and poor and they love the guy because the days of terror both left and right are largely over under his presidency.

There is no slave labor, and the countryside is not cleansed of peasant farmers. In fact, farmers are at peace in the countryside, no longer threatened by paramilitaries both left and right.

And as for Cocaine, take a look at Venezuela. Plenty of news stories about that here lately.

You can make stuff up all you want, but the facts are the facts. Colombia is a remarkably better and safer place than it was 8 years ago, and Uribe is wildly popular for it.
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-31-10 03:59 AM
Response to Original message
6. Superb article. It's perfect. It does look like greater, more direct aggression has been planned
Edited on Sat Jul-31-10 04:02 AM by Judi Lynn
going back before Obama was elected as a legitimate President.

Resurrecting the 4th Fleet started during George W. Bush's occupation of the Presidency. No doubt all this was part of the plan crafted during Rumsfeld, when the threats started coming fast and furiously toward leftist South America.

You remember John F. Kennedy got handed a pile of problems the minute he took office, too, since the U.S. military had already gotten the Bay of Pigs underway and was training recruits in Guatemala, with the Cuban "exiles" who launched it.

Your article was delight, it was a thrill seeing someone write what we've been thinking all along about this pathetic rerun attempt to drag Chavez down with the same old crap. The author wrote it so plainly even a complete Tea Partier should be able to grasp it!

By the way, here's one of those silly photos they found, it's real proof the FARCs were hiding in Venezuela, since HERE'S one of them playing their own piano they somehow dragged along with them! (Probably have so much time as terrorists to stand around their piano singing songs together, right?)

http://www.ctlsoftware.co.uk.nyud.net:8090/Python/pictures/piano4.jpg

Real proof of the FARCs in Venezuela!

The poster Peace Patriot pointed out, and you recognized DOES sound exactly like Dreyfus to me, too! Diehard!

There has to be some way to figure out how to get this great Colombian citizen whose posts have been appreciated since at least 2000 by many back in here to post here, too. Hope it can be straightened out.

Please, if you speak with him, tell him we're trying to understand how to log in again. I know there's a mix-up because he has NOT been banned, after all. We've read all his posts.

Thanks for providing an INTELLIGENT article on the latest sleazy effort. Many people have their number now. Everyone knows it but the clowns, fools, halfwits.

Recommend.
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-31-10 04:56 AM
Response to Reply #6
7. Two more FARC piano photos found on the magic computer.
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naaman fletcher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-31-10 02:52 PM
Response to Reply #6
10. despite your silly picture,
the actual picture of the FARC camp with the piano is available and has been posted here. I wonder why you would post a phony picture when you can post the real one?
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rabs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-31-10 08:23 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. Have not seen the actual picture of which you speak



Appc. if you can post it here, or give us a link.

Thanks.


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naaman fletcher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-31-10 09:34 PM
Response to Reply #12
15. here you go..
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rabs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-31-10 09:52 PM
Response to Reply #15
19. Found it, thanks





But instead of a piano, it turns out to be an electronic keyboard. Pretty easy to lug that around. Do you know whether Hoyos actually mentioned the word "piano" in his show to the OAS? I missed his presentation.









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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-31-10 09:58 PM
Response to Reply #19
22. By god, I can tell that interior is Venezuelan! The very nerve. n/t
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rabs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-31-10 09:24 PM
Response to Reply #6
14. Judi, do you have or have you seen the photo



that is mentioned in Post #10?? Think that if anyone would have it, it would be you. Have asked poster to provide the photo or a link but no reply as of yet.

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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-31-10 09:42 PM
Response to Reply #14
18. No! and I'm all eyes, too! I absolutely can't wait to see it, myself.
Here's the sad, and surprising result for my first search:

Colombia FARC piano Venezuela photograph

http://www.google.com/images?rlz=1T4SNYI_enUS308US308&q=Colombia+FARC+piano+Venezuela+photograph&um=1&ie=UTF-8&source=univ&ei=E9tUTL32NpO6sQPB_tTaAg&sa=X&oi=image_result_group&ct=title&resnum=1&ved=0CCAQsAQwAA

So, so sad.

I wonder why they brought a piano. They'd have to tune it the very minute they got situated. Unless, that is, they had it originally permanently tuned by Mr. Opporknockity. ("Opporknockity only tunes once!")

They may have to start thinking about dragging around an accordi'n with them, instead.



World famous accordion artiste, Judy Tenuta. :woohoo:
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naaman fletcher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-31-10 09:56 PM
Response to Reply #18
20. It's in post number 19.
So you can stop posting the fake ones now.
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-31-10 09:57 PM
Response to Reply #14
21. I just saw the one in the El Universal array of "proof!"
Oh, my god. Sad, sad, sad.

Here's another one they opted to omit:

http://www.watersportsproducts.com.nyud.net:8090/images/swansm.jpg

Two of 'em, plotting together out in the water.


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naaman fletcher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-31-10 11:19 AM
Response to Original message
8. LMAO
Chavez is the only one talking war. Colombia is talking peace.
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rabs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-31-10 08:22 PM
Response to Reply #8
11. More chuckles for you



Here is a Colombian talking peace. These and other videos are on the El Tiempo online edition. El Tiempo, of course, is owned by the Santos oligarchy.

Enjoy the videos, they are brief -- first one is a message to JM Santos

http://www.citytv.com.co/videos/150948/mensaje-al-nuevo-gobierno-entrante-de-juan-manuel-santos

And this one talks about the reality of the conflict today:

http://www.citytv.com.co/videos/151116/los-muertos-de-la-guerra

There are more videos on the El Tiempo website.







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rabs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-31-10 09:41 PM
Response to Reply #8
17. Here's another article for you
Edited on Sat Jul-31-10 09:42 PM by rabs

on Cano and what he is asking. This is from SEMANA, the most widely-read news magazine in Colombia.


'Alfonso Cano' dice estar "dispuesto al diálogo"

CONFLICTO ARMADO Cano' critica al Gobierno actual, PERO DEJA ABRIERTA LA PUERTA A UN EVENTUAL DIALOGO. (Caps mine)


http://www.semana.com/noticias-conflicto-armado/alfonso-cano-dice-estar-dispuesto-dialogo/142389.aspx
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-31-10 10:00 PM
Response to Reply #17
23. Thanks for the Semana link. Interesting. n/t
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-31-10 01:21 PM
Response to Original message
9. Alvarez is an extremely effective writer and speaker.
He's a perfect choice for that position, imho.
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rabs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-31-10 08:38 PM
Response to Reply #9
13. Meantime, over at the OAS, uribito has Hoyos as ambassador



and who comes from the deepest "hoyo de corrupcion" in Colombia.

Hoyos has been BANNED for life from ever running for any public office. He was banned by a court after it was discovered that he was swindling money from a fund set aside expecially to help displaced persons and refugees, mainly from the paramilitary killers. Hoyos at one time was a senator.

Then alvarito appointed Hoyos to head the uribista social action program and hoyos answered directly to alvarito at the narino palace. The millions of pesos that Hoyos swindled wemt directly to parapoliticians in return for their vote allowing alvarito's re-election in 2006.

A best friend of alvarito for years, he was given the plum position of an ambassadorship at the OAS. But he turned out to be a disaster in presenting the "show" against Venezuela.

alvarito these dsys keeps taking it on the chin. And wait until Aug. 7, when the "olla sera realmente destapada !!!" Gonna be fun to watch.





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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-01-10 03:47 PM
Response to Original message
37. The Uribe thing about the FARC in Venezuela is such bullshit I can't believe it. WMD deja vu!
And the problem with having rightwing posters here defending this bullshit is that we can't get to a deeper discussion of WHY Uribe is saying it. Is this the war trigger? Is that what he's doing, in cahoots with Santos and their puppetmasters in Washington--setting it up? Is it some lesser evil--U.S./Colombia effort to intimidate Venezeulan voters in the by-elections? Or is it just cover, say, having to do with his own personal criminality and vulnerability to prosecution? Big show of "patriotism" and militarism, to try to fend off the prosecutors? Has he been blackmailed by the CIA into making these charges (as I think he was blackmailed into signing the secretly negotiated U.S./Colombia military agreement)? If so, why? What is our government up to? Or is he just spinning out, doing wild things, because he's been dumped by the CIA? On his own trip? No game plan. No purpose assignable?

I would really like the thoughts of knowledgeable posters on why Uribe is doing this. I've been worried about U.S. war plans against Venezuela for some time, as you know. I've guessed that a Colombia/Venezuela border incident will be the trigger. So, when Uribe suddenly came forth with this, in his last weeks in office, my alarm grew by many magnitudes. Santos has said that he would not hesitate to invade Venezuela in pursuit of the FARC. Uribe--though the bombing/raid on Ecuador happened on his watch--later apologized for it and promised never to do it again. Is this why Uribe was dumped and Santos was chosen--that Uribe is, in the words of The Economist (a corporate/war profiteer rag), "erratic"? Or am I reading this wrong? Is Santos a sort of "new Nixon" who intends to play more by the "democracy cosmetics" rules of Clinton "free trade for the rich"?

To appearances, Santos is worse than Uribe, as to being a warmonger. If the game is "democracy cosmetics," is it temporary--just a pause, while the Pentagon gets all its war assets in place, and the CIA works on regional leaders? Or is Santos more of a real "new Nixon" (with no "bombing of Cambodia" in his back pocket) who will use the advantages they've gained--all those dead leftist organizers, billions of dollars in U.S. support--to fulfill promises of more riches to the rich elite and some "trickle down" to the upper middle class? Is this a "we need to look forward not backward" moment?

Panetta may have delivered the message to this client state that they have to put on a democratic show (back some months ago when a Uribe coup d'etat was the rumor). First they get "free trade" for Exxon Mobil, Occidental Petroleum, Chevron, Monsanto, Chiquita & brethren through Congress, use it to make the richer richer and to undermine Venezuela's economy however they can, while keeping the border with Venezuela chaotic, then, if they can't topple Chavez with their usual bag of tricks, war remains an option. Minimum use of U.S. troops, to keep the lid on here (at first, anyway). Mostly Colombian troops backed by high tech U.S. weaponry, in collusion with fascist groups within Venezuela. They may also be waiting out regional developments. For instance, they might want to wait until Lulu is out of power. Even if his successor wins the election in Brazil, a moment of transition in Brazil would be the time to strike. They may also want to knock off a couple more of Central America's leftist governments (Nicaragua especially comes to mind) before they strike Venezuela. And they may need to wait out ES&S's work in 2012, if Obama is at all an obstacle to their war. It's going to take a heavy duty sell. They've already got a lot of people here believing that Chavez is a "dictator." It'll need a bit more ratcheting up--Chavez, the "terrorist"--and maybe U.S. soldier deaths--to control the newsstream here, until the deed is done, and--in the minds of our war profiteers, Venezuela's vast oil reserves (twice Saudi Arabia's) will be theirs.

I have no doubt that this is the plan--or, I should say, A plan on the Pentagon's Big Board. It may look a lot easier to them than Iraq/Afghanistan/Iran, for filling their tanks. The questions are, how seriously is it being contemplated, and, if it's a go, when?

What are your thoughts about this Uribe accusation in this context? Uribe gone rogue? A political/economic plan? A war plan? Another possibility: conflicting plans in Washington (retailers/Big Ag vs war profiteers? "soft war" vs hard war? Clinton/Obama vs Brownfield/DeMint/McCain?). (The fascists pushing things one way, the corporatists another?)

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naaman fletcher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-01-10 03:52 PM
Response to Reply #37
38. Why is it bulllshit? How do you know?
Is it really that unreasonable that FARC would seek haven in another country? Is it really that unreasonable that they would seek it in a government that is unfriendly to Colombia? Is it really unreasonable that Chavez would turn a blind eye to it?

Of course, that is not proof, but it's not unreasonable.

So Colombia supplies pictures and GPS coordiantes. How does Chavez respond? By saying he won't even look, cutting off relations, and ordering the military to the border. Is that how you would react?

Then you say it is bullshit, but why?
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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-03-10 12:00 PM
Response to Reply #38
40. How do I know that it's bullshit? The way I know any rightwinger is slinging bullshit--experience!
Also, the head of the OAS--who bends over so far for the USA that the rest of Latin America is considering replacing the OAS with an organization that does NOT include the U.S. as a member--has said that it is bullshit. EVERYBODY knows, he said, that NEITHER country has control of its border and that it is therefore ridiculous to suddenly accuse Venezuela of "harboring" FARC guerillas.

It is an unstable area. Rightwing death squads, FARC guerillas, drug traffickers, traffickers in other kinds of goods, freely cross back and forth. The area is also beset with refugees from Colombia fleeing to Venezuela (about a quarter million of the 5 MILLION displaced Colombians, mostly poor farmers, whom the Colombian military has driven from their farms). CLEARLY, Colombia's 40+ year civil war is spilling over the border into Venezuela, a peaceful country that has NO civil war raging within its borders. And I have little doubt that this spillover is by design, probably Pentagon design.

Putting this knowledge--gained from widespread reading, and from not being (metophorically) blind--together with with my experience of the rightwing, in general, and buddies of George Bush, in particular--I concluded that Uribe is LYING.

It's not as if Uribe has never lied before--for instance, when he called all the leftists in Colombia--academics, teachers, artists, politicians, union organizers--the entire political opposition--"terrorists." I'm supposed to believe this jerk and his bloody-handed regime?

I've also read accounts of Colombia's "Colin Powell" presentation to the OAS. Like a rotten apple from a rotten tree.

The Venezuelan military investigated the coordinates that Colombia provided, and found absolutely nothing. What are they supposed to do--torture and terrorize peasants, like the Colombian military does, to root out the FARC?

And if Venezuela were "harboring" the FARC, would they be so stupid as to let the FARC hang out on beaches and in meadows for Colombia to photograph them? Wouldn't they HIDE them?

I also know the history of the "miracle laptop" (later, laptopS) and its absurdities--for instance, Uribe's allegation that the presidents of Ecuador and Venezuela were helping the FARC to obtain a "dirty bomb." The roots of these lies go back to those lies, all tangled up in the roots of a very rotten tree.

It goes without saying that Uribe is lying. The only question is, why this particular lie at this particular time? No way of knowing that for sure, as yet. Could be personal. The man has some legal problems, to say the least--and may just be throwing a lot of flak around. Could be merely an effort to influence/threaten Venezuelan voters in the upcoming legislative elections. Could be just page 37 in the USAID's playbook of how to topple Chavez without firing a shot.

But there is worrisome evidence that it could be something more--a planned escalation of the psyops campaign against the Chavez government, to set up the triggering mechanism for a proxy U.S. war against Venezuela (which might end up, as in Vietnam, not being so proxy; being an all-out U.S. war). This very scenario was rehearsed, back in March 2008, when the U.S./Colombia bombed/raided Ecuador, to take out the FARC's hostage release and peace negotiator, Raul Reyes (and 24 other sleeping people), very nearly triggering a war with Ecuador/Venezuela, then and there. Exercises like that have multiple purposes, one of them, in this case, likely being to improve U.S. and Colombian military coordination; another to study the forces on the other side, both military and political.

Then there's the U.S. military buildup in Colombia and in the region, most especially surrounding Venezuela's Caribbean oil coast and its northern oil provinces. Then there is the in-coming president of Colombia's statement, back when his predecessor apologized to Ecuador for the violation of its territory, that he--Santos (now the president)--would not hesitate to invade another country in pursuit of the FARC. Seems a bit ominous to me that the man who wouldn't even apologize for it, a man who apparently doesn't believe in international laws prohibiting such excursions, is now president of Colombia, with his political ally, Uribe, the outgoing president, suddenly, out of nowhere, in his last days in office, accusing Venezuela of 'harboring' FARC guerrillas.

Rightwing liars tell Big Lies--as with the WMDs in Iraq--and then watch us all scurrying around trying to prove otherwise. They playact before the UN, meanwhile mobilizing battalions of soldiers and very expensive private contractors, and then, no matter what anybody says, no matter how many objective observers say they are talking bullshit, invade another country and kill lots and lots and lots of innocent people to steal their oil--while the rest of us are still arguing about their Big Lie. It happened to us less than a decade ago. Is it now happening again, on another landscape, with players who are closely allied to the Iraq War liars?

The resemblance is haunting. I don't know if that's what Uribe was doing, setting up a war trigger. Only time will tell. But it is simply stupid, blind and very rightwing to believe what he says on any matter, let alone this one.

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naaman fletcher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-03-10 02:37 PM
Response to Reply #40
41. ok..


It is an unstable area. Rightwing death squads, FARC guerillas, drug traffickers, traffickers in other kinds of goods, freely cross back and forth. The area is also beset with refugees from Colombia fleeing to Venezuela (about a quarter million of the 5 MILLION displaced Colombians, mostly poor farmers, whom the Colombian military has driven from their farms). CLEARLY, Colombia's 40+ year civil war is spilling over the border into Venezuela, a peaceful country that has NO civil war raging within its borders. And I have little doubt that this spillover is by design, probably Pentagon design.


that is a perfectly reasonable response, it would have been useful for everyone here if it was given last week instead of jokes and fake pictures of people playing the piano.




The Venezuelan military investigated the coordinates that Colombia provided, and found absolutely nothing. What are they supposed to do--torture and terrorize peasants, like the Colombian military does, to root out the FARC?



Are you sure about this? Do you have a link? The only thing I saw as Venezuela stating that they refused to even look.

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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-03-10 08:53 PM
Response to Reply #41
42. London Progressive Journal 7/23/10
Venezuela Breaks Relations with Colombia
Fri 23rd Jul 2010
Eva Golinger

President Chavez ordered maximum alert on Venezuela’s border with Colombia after the Uribe administration made grave accusations against Venezuela claiming the Chavez government harbors terrorists and terrorist training camps.

The outgoing government of Alvaro Uribe in Colombia gave a shameful presentation before member states of the Organization of American States (OAS) on Thursday, reminiscent of Colin Powell’s “weapons of mass destruction” power point evidence presented in 2003 before the United Nations Security Council to justify the war in Iraq.

Colombia alleged that Venezuela is harboring “terrorists” from the Armed Revolutionary Forces of Colombia (FARC) and the National Liberation Army (ELN) and hosting several “terrorist training camps” near the border region that divides the two nations.

During an extraordinary session convened at OAS headquarters in Washington on Thursday, upon request of the Uribe government, Colombia’s ambassador to the OAS, Luis Alfonso Hoyos, presented television and video images allegedly taken from computers confiscated during the illegal invasion of Ecuatorian territory on March 1, 2008, which resulted in the death of FARC leader Raul Reyes and a dozen other Colombian, Ecuatorian and Mexican citizens. Hoyos also presented several computer-generated maps and photographs of alleged members of the FARC, which he said were taken inside Venezuela.

No Real Proof

Yet none of the images were authenticated or verified as reliable by any source other than the Colombian government. Colombia also used satellite map images, some from Google Earth, to show alleged “coordinates” where FARC members are in Venezuela.

Furthermore, the photographs presented by Hoyos had no source identification, dates or times, and merely showed alleged members of the FARC and ELN in different jungle and coastal areas.

Venezuela and Colombia share a porous, jungle and mountainous border and both countries have Caribbean coasts. The countries have similar vegetations, climates and scenery.

Venezuela’s ambassador to the OAS, Roy Chaderton said the photographs looked to him as though they had been taken in Colombia. “That looks like the beach in Santa Marta to me”, responded Chaderton, after Hoyos claimed a photo of a FARC member drinking a beer on the beach was taken at Chichirivichi, a Venezuelan beach town.

“There is no evidence, not a single piece of proof, of where those photographs were taken”, said Chaderton, adding that the “evidence” presented by Colombia was “confusing, imprecise and non-convincing”.

The Venezuelan army verified and thoroughly inspected the locations and coordinates provided by the Uribe administration on Thursday and found none of the alleged “terrorist sites”, “camps” or “guerrilla presence” claimed by Colombia.

Upon arriving at the first coordinate indicated in Colombia’s report, identified as an alleged terrorist camp of alias Ruben Zamora, the Venezuelan army found a farm growing plantains, yucca and corn. The second coordinate, which was the alleged camp of FARC commander Ivan Marquez, was merely an extensive field with no structures or presence of anyone or anything.


International Intervention

During his two-hour long flamboyant presentation, Hoyos called for “international intervention” in Venezuela to verify the campsites and gave Venezuela a “30-day ultimatum”.

“Colombia requests a commission of international members, including all those of the OAS, go to Venezuela and verify each of the terrorist camp sites and coordinates to see the truth”, said Hoyos, adding, “we give the Venezuelan government 30 days”, although he didn’t specify what could happen afterward.

Hoyos also accused the Venezuelan government of facilitating drug trafficking, money laundering, illegal arms trade, attacks against Colombian armed forces and even went so far as to allege the Chavez government “squashes its opposition”, “represses freedom of expression”, “insults other governments” and “violates principles of democracy”.

At the same time, Hoyos said his government would be unwilling to listen to or respond to any accusations, insults or offenses made by the Venezuelan government.

Colombia’s position is an echo of Washington’s, which has accused Venezuela of harboring and providing refuge to members of the FARC during the past seven years. But, the US government has also failed to present any evidence to back such claims, and often makes contradictory statements, which appear to confirm the lack of solid proof.

In March 2010, US Southern Command (SOUTHCOM) chief General Douglas Fraser said that he had seen no evidence of any links between Venezuela and the FARC. “We have not seen any connections specifically that I can verify where there has been a direct government-to-terrorist connection”, declared Fraser during a hearing before the US Senate Armed Forces Committee.

However, the following day, General Fraser contradicted himself before the press, stating, “There is indeed clear and documented historical and ongoing evidence of the linkages between the Government of Venezuela and the FARC”.

Possibly, Fraser was referring to previous governments in Venezuela, such as those of Carlos Andres Perez (1989-1993) or Rafael Caldera (1994-1998), which actually housed an office of the FARC in the presidential palace. President Chavez shut down that office when he entered the presidency in early 1999.

Or maybe General Fraser was referring to the specific requests made by two Colombian presidents, Andres Pastrana and Alvaro Uribe, for Chavez to mediate the release of hostages held by the FARC.

With full disclosure and complete authority from President Alvaro Uribe, and based on his own personal request, in September 2007, President Chavez accepted the role as mediator in order to secure the release of several hostages held by the FARC inside Colombian territory. For that reason only, Chavez met with FARC commander Ivan Marquez and assured the release of Clara Rojas and Consuelo Gonzalez in January 2008.

But otherwise, the Venezuelan government has consistently and repeatedly denied any links or support given to the FARC or any other armed, irregular group from Colombia or elsewhere.

Relations Broken

After Colombia’s presentation before the OAS, President Chavez announced a complete rupture in relations.
“It is with tears in my heart that I announce that we will break all relations with Colombia. We have no other choice, for our dignity and our sovereignty”.

Chavez also ordered troops to secure all border areas. “I have ordered a maximum alert on our borders. Uribe is a mafioso and a liar, and is capable of anything”, he said, recalling how Uribe ordered the invasion of Ecuador’s territory in 2008 and then lied to President Rafael Correa about what had happened.

Venezuela accused Colombia of failing to resolve its own internal conflicts, including a 60-year old civil war that has negatively impacted its neighbors with violence and drug trafficking spilling over the borders. More than 4 million Colombians, fleeing the violence in their country, live in Venezuela today.

The Colombian “show” appears to be an effort to justify preemptive war against Venezuela. Last year Colombia opened its territory to seven US military bases in an agreement that the US Air Force claimed was necessary in order to conduct “full spectrum military operations” throughout South America to “combat the constant threat of anti-American governments in the region”.


http://londonprogressivejournal.com/article/737/venezuela-breaks-relations-with-colombia
also at http://www.greenleft.org.au/node/44893

-----------------------

You really ought to widen and deepen your reading list, if you want to keep up on events in Latin America, cuz your usual sources are going to fail you again and again. They paint Chavez the way they WANT to paint him--baffoon, dictator, anti-semite, "increasingly authoritarian," warmonger, "terrorist-lover," failure--whatever the flavor of the day is, of Chavez bashing, in corporate media fantasyland. You have to read LEFTIST publications, no matter how hard that is for you to swallow. And when you've done so, and balanced the rightwing cartoon of Chavez with the reality in Latin America--the reality of how he is regarded THERE, based on WHAT HE DOES that is never reported here, then you might come to some reasonable state of informed commenter.

You have got to understand that Chavez is a respected member of the MAJORITY in Latin America--respected by other leaders, sided with by the majority of leaders on most issues, a man who presents and implements good ideas that they all like, such as the Bank of the South, the Central American trade group ALBA, recognition of Cuba and Latin American independence from the U.S. And this is why Colombia will never get anywhere with these ridiculous charges that Venezuela 'harbors' the FARC. They all know otherwise. They trust Chavez. They know he wouldn't do that. They know that, when the Venezuelan military says they investigated the coordinates and found nothing, they are telling the truth. And they don't trust Colombia, with very good reason. Colombia is a client state of the U.S. which already violated the territory of a Latin American country--Ecuador--and very nearly started a war. Uribe/Santos sprang that on them, with no warning, and then Uribe repeated this untrustworthy behavior by his secret negotiations over the Colombia/U.S. military agreement--again with no warning, not even a courtesy call. You treat people with contempt? You lie to them? They don't believe you when you spring another one of your tricks on them!

Colombia's 40+ year civil war is very disturbing to the peace of the region, and has greatly exacerbated the problems in border areas. War makes more war. Bloodshed makes more bloodshed. That is the story of Colombia--and the vast majority of Latin American leaders, including Chavez, want an end to it. Uribe trying to blame it on Chavez is ridiculous posturing and distraction--or worse--an effort to expand Colombia's civil war INTO Venezuela. That is what the great majority of the leaders of Latin America are now trying to prevent.

Colombia's solution to everything is more killing. They want Venezuela and Ecuador to start killing poor peasants and others in pursuit of the FARC, too--if we can believe what they say they want. They want everybody in South America to join them in a scorched earth policy against the poorest people in the hemisphere, and kill, kill, kill, to the last FARC guerilla. And if South America won't engage in their slaughter, they want the U.S. to do it.

This solves NOTHING. It just turns everybody into killers and destroys every society. We've already destroyed tens of the thousands of lives, in Iraq and Afghanistan, and look at those societies today. Chaos and violence reign. WHO has benefited? War profiteers mostly, and everyone who lives by the sword. With the chronic violence in a country like Colombia, and the vast corruption that has accompanied it, there is only one solution that can lead to peace, and that is to START with peace--to STOP the killing. The Bush Junta policy--if it can be called a policy--of pouring fire on a troubled situation, adding vast amounts of weaponry, and positively encouraging rapacious killing, will never ever ever create peace. And this is Uribe's and Santos' way. That's all they know. They are Bush Junta prodigies.

For Uribe to come out and blame Venezuela, a peaceful country, for the wreckage of Colombian society by U.S.-funded militarism, is absurd. It is a "Big Lie." And if you would seek out alternative information, and weigh it against the crapola in our 'news' media, you would know that. The man is a liar, bought and paid for by the USA, with ties to rightwing death squads and drug trafficking. He is not respected. And Chavez is. That is the situation.
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naaman fletcher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-03-10 09:04 PM
Response to Reply #42
43. thanks for the link. /nt
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Zorro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-03-10 09:35 PM
Response to Reply #42
44. Chavez is not nearly as beloved in Latin America as you dream he is
Just sayin'.
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naaman fletcher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-01-10 03:53 PM
Response to Reply #37
39. speculation
"Panetta may have delivered the message "

It is funny the way you say with such certainty that the FARC allegation are bullshit, then you fill up the board with endless "may have" speculation.
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Downwinder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-03-10 10:34 PM
Response to Original message
45. FARC must be the only insurgency in the world with uniformed troops.
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-04-10 01:39 PM
Response to Reply #45
47. I've wondered about that, too. Maybe they do it to keep the government guys
from claiming they are trying to pass themselves off as regular Venezuelans, but that has failed, anyway, since the government, and the government-linked paramilitary death squads go ahead and kill regular citizens, ANYWAY, and pretend they thought they were FARCs.

I've never heard of a uniformed insurgency, either.
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Downwinder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-04-10 06:08 PM
Response to Reply #47
48. A uniformed insurgency denotes centralized purchasing or
Edited on Wed Aug-04-10 06:12 PM by Downwinder
state or commercial support. Since FARC predates Chavez I would have to rule out Venezuelan support. Russia and/or Cuba cannot afford operations like that anymore. That would leave who? The US or Colombia as a false flag operation? Some Industrial group (mining, petroleum, agriculture)?
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ChangoLoa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-06-10 07:35 AM
Response to Reply #48
58. Are you wondering where the FARC get their money or who furnishes them with uniforms?
Isn't it more difficult to get heavy weapons than uniforms?
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Downwinder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-06-10 10:35 AM
Response to Reply #58
59. Weapons are not unusual for an insurgency.
In my limited experience uniforms are. Does an insurgent want to stand out, to be identifiable? Patterns and exceptions to patterns interest me.

The fact that the Colombian Military seems to have a ready supply of FARC uniforms appears to be another abnormality.

Perhaps due to my dislike of uniforms it stands out to me.
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naaman fletcher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-04-10 06:44 PM
Response to Reply #47
50. You don't know insurgencies very well then. nt.
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Downwinder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-04-10 07:14 PM
Response to Reply #50
51. True: Viet Cong, Shining Path, Taliban.
Edited on Wed Aug-04-10 07:24 PM by Downwinder
Perhaps you can denote some uniformed ones that don't have their roots in the military.
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naaman fletcher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-04-10 07:29 PM
Response to Reply #51
52. Why?
Roots in the military was not a condition of her statement.
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Downwinder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-04-10 07:44 PM
Response to Reply #52
53. It is mine. I am addressing insurgencies not coups.
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naaman fletcher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-04-10 08:46 PM
Response to Reply #53
54. I apologize.
Reading the forum from my phone i somehow got confused who I was replying to.

But my point remains the same.
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Downwinder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-04-10 08:56 PM
Response to Reply #54
55. And mine.

I think it is a valid question. I am not aware of uniformed insurgencies. French revolution? US revolution? Did Bolivar's people have uniforms?
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naaman fletcher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-04-10 08:59 PM
Response to Reply #55
56. not sure..
It's something i have been pondering since it was raised.
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-05-10 05:31 PM
Response to Reply #55
57. Damned right it's valid. They are completely unique. That's why it's so easy for the Colombian
military and paras to dress civilians in FARC uniforms after death, to make them look like dead FARCs with no bullet holes on the areas covering the real bulletholes. Looks "good" for superficial appearances.
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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-04-10 10:08 AM
Response to Original message
46. Reply to Zorro (comment 44, above)...
Edited on Wed Aug-04-10 10:10 AM by Peace Patriot
Zorro (1000+ posts) Tue Aug-03-10 07:35 PM
Response to Reply #42
44. Chavez is not nearly as beloved in Latin America as you dream he is

Just sayin'.
*

-------------------------------------
-------------------------------------

I did not say "beloved." I said "respected." And I did not "dream" this. It is the reality in Latin America--as the London Progressive article reveals. Chavez was appointed to work with a conservative (Pinera) on economic integration issues BECAUSE CHAVEZ IS RESPECTED. He is not the "clown" or "dictator" of YOUR rightwing fantasyworld and the CIA's and its scribblers in the corporate media. He has won elections by huge majorities time and again in Venezuela. Transparent elections. Lulu da Silva has said, of Chavez, "They can invent all kinds of things to criticize Chavez, but not on democracy!". Other leaders respect this, as ours, unfortunately, do not. He and his government have done great good, have good ideas and work well with others. This, too, has been demonstrated time and again, in project after project in the region.

The Obama administration continues to live in the rightwing world of the Bush Junta, when it comes to Latin America, and, believe me, we are going to be the losers, in the end. This fantasy world may serve corporate and war profiteer interests, but it does not serve us--the people who are forced to fund U.S. "war on drugs" militarism, and war games and psyops against Venezuela and other leftist leaders, in Latin America, with BILLIONS and BILLIONS of our tax dollars, that should be used to help us--the victims of the Bush Junta depression. And, if the war profiteers and oil profiteers have their druthers, we may end up in another oil war--this time in South America.

---------------------------------------
---------------------------------------

*(For some reason, DU's software won't let me reply to your comment directly. So I'm posting it as a comment on the OP.)

Edited for typos.
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naaman fletcher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-04-10 06:43 PM
Response to Reply #46
49. informative post,
lost of fact based information that is well sourced, thank you.

By the way, who is "us"? Are you a victim of the Bush Junta depression? How?
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