Venezuela is the only country in the region that will remain in recession

[ChangoLoa]

The Latin American and Caribbean (LAC) economies will average a 5.7 percent growth and the inflation rate will stand at 6 percent in 2010, according to a report published by the International Monetary Fund that was released on Wednesday.

Paraguay will reach the highest growth in the region (9 percent) in 2010, followed by Uruguay (8.5 percent) and Peru (8.3 percent). Brazil with a 7.5 percent growth in 2010, similar to Argentina's, remains the leader of this regional trend, as "its real GDP growth has been running close to 10 percent since the third quarter of 2009," the report added.

Venezuela is the only LAC country hit by recession in 2010, with a -1.3 percent economic downturn in 2010 and a slight 0.5 percent growth in the GDP in 2011. According to the report, "Venezuela's recession will continue in 2010, reflecting severe supply bottlenecks, challenges from capital flight, and generally weak policy frameworks." It also has the highest inflation rate in the hemisphere (29.2 percent), followed by Argentina (10.6 percent), the only other country with double-digit inflation. Peru, Chile and Bolivia show a lower inflation, with only 1.7 percent, the report highlighted.

http://english.eluniversal.com/2010/10/06/en_eco_esp_venezuela-is-the-onl_06A4571017.shtml

[bherrera]

1. Bad crisis of 21st Century Socialism, one could think

Maybe this is a crisis of 21st Century Socialism. The crisis of capitalism seems to be ending, and these guys in Venezuela are not recovering very well. It must be caused by poor economic management. I do see they continue to try to control the currency with this really complex system of many different currency exchange rates. This is clearly something which can be used to create illegal gains. And I suppose this is one reason why Venezuela looks like an auto rolling on square tires, bouncing this way and that way and the people inside shaking a lot.

The obvious solution is to change the economic policy, and stop trying to implement that communist system they have been thinking. It doesn't work.

[L Cutter]

2. solutions

What spin do you lay your head down on at night to convince yourself that "the crisis of capitalism seems to be ending"?

The real reason for the hysterical hatred towards Venezuela is that Bolivarianism continues to survive as an unwelcome positive example for others who are being crushed by Laissez-faire neoliberalism.

[bherrera]

4. Everywhere else economy grows, but Venezuela is down

It is very simple, Gross Domestic Product is increasing in all nations. The growth rates are higher in nations which supply commodities, what we call economies which are not as advanced as Europe, USA, Japan, etc.

There is no "hatred" towards Venezuela in my comments. I believe their government is autocratic, and poorly managed. This is demonstrated by the fact that their economy is down when all the economies are up. And I attribute this to the impact cauased by their poor ideas. If you wish, we can debate facts, theories, and other matters. But if all you can do is repeat the typical blah blah blah of communists who know they can't defend Venezuela's current economic performance, then I am bored by you.

And I should add, my criticism starts because I read, and I found articles by Heinz Dieterich and other scholars which say the Venezuelan government is not performing well, and has only 8 months to change things, or it will put Venezuela into a total disaster. Why don't you read something different, and open your mind?

[L Cutter]

6. It's not boredom that I detect

It's not boredom that I detect in your words, it's anger. I can understand that. Your cherished Laissez-faire neoliberalism is being seriously challenged, even in your home nation and across Europe, along with South and Central America. There are real reasons for that.

It's not facts that you want to debate, it's spin. You say that "The crisis of capitalism seems to be ending", but what can that be based upon but spin? The bankster's pockets are full again, for awhile. Some might spin this to mean that "capitalism" is doing great. To others, who watched the bankster's pockets become fat again by means of the banksters, again, using their fully owned politicians to fatten their already overstuffed pockets at the expense of the people's food budgets - not so much.

If a competitor has a bad business plan, isn't that an advantage to you? And, as the Empire, with it's laissez-faire neoliberal army and agents, has made a sick joke of it's transparently ridiculous claims of altruism, what business is it of the USA how Venezuela, or any other nation, runs their own economy? Why all the hysteria?

There is far more to the economy than how many summer homes the Lords can buy. That's why there are revolutions and that's why the elites hate a good example like Bolivarianism. So, if you really want to debate, rather than just carrying spin for the Lords, why don't you try using your own words to defend your defense of a very inhuman system.

[bherrera]

7. let us go over the facts

I am a Socialist party member living in Spain. Therefore do not presume tell me what I am or what I believe.

Now that we have this clear, the facts are the facts. Venezuela suffers from hyper inflation (30 % per anum), and it also suffers from negative Gross Demestic Product growth. This is indeed a deadly poison, which hurts the poor more than the rich. The so called socialism of the 21st century is a failure, and it is reaching a major crisis, because its main proponent is deep in crisis, borrowing huge sums of money, with its bonds considered by the market the highest risk in the world.

As a Spanish Socialist, I feel there are better solution than the corruption and crime ridden system they have in Venezuela. Therefore, since you have not bothered to inquire what I think, and you arrogantly presume you do, you show yorself to be just another arrogant american radical leftist with the head full of empty impractical ideas. Next time you bark, make sure you have the teeth to back your sounds.

[L Cutter]

8. Your facts are sparse

When I saw the heading "let us go over the facts", it didn't prepare me for the fact that I would be called upon to pick through a highly opinionated temper tantrum just to find a couple incomplete thoughts that might be labeled facts. But, I suppose one has to take what one can get. So, on those, I'll just fill in a little where your guru seems to have left off, or, perhaps you just skipped that chapter.

I'd be hard pressed to defend 30% inflation, but your mention of its effect on the poor is rendered suspect when you fail to recognize that wages and benefits for them have outpaced the inflation over the course.

The Gross Domestic Product is important to banksters, but it does the people no good if the GDP increases a thousand fold but the benefits go to foreign corporations and most of what's left goes to corrupt domestic elites as kickbacks. This is why the Venezuelan people decided to focus on their Gross National Product instead, and it's just distribution.

Which brings us back to where you keep jumping the track. I only advocated socialism once. That was when I offered my opinion that socialism was the best weapon with which to resist the Empire. Perhaps it is you making the presumptions because my words in defence of liberty sound more socialist than the words of the one who claims to be a Spanish Socialist but whose words betray something else. Nonetheless, let me remind you again of what I do advocate, and notice, if you will, that socialism is not a prerequisite.

Bolivarianism:
Anti-imperialism
Economic independence
Grass roots political participation
Equitable distribution of revenue from national resources
Elimination of corruption
A national ethic of patriotic service

It will add nothing of value to the debate for you to simply shout that they have not completed all those goals because, unlike your confusion, I know that Chavez is not a dictator (or autocrat - as you like to express it) and they are making progress democratically.

[bherrera]

9. Facts deny what you posted

The following is from venezuelanalysis.com

http://venezuelanalysis.com/news/5077


"Mérida, January 18th 2010 (Venezuelanalysis.com) – In his annual address to the National Assembly, Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez announced a 25% increase in the minimum wage this year, promised that funding to health care, education, and other anti-poverty programs will not be cut, and spoke of the influence of both Christianity and Marxism on his government’s policies.

.....Chavez said the minimum wage would be increased by 10% on March 1st, then by 15% in September. This will bring the minimum wage from approximately 950 bolivars per month to nearly 1,200 bolivars per month, and it comes in addition to a 20% minimum wage increase in 2008."

The following states the inflation rate in Venezuela for 2008 and 2009:

"Venezuela's inflation rate of 25.1% in 2009 was among the highest in the world, again. However, the Venezuelan Central Bank (BVC) said Thursday, that this was a significant drop when compared to the previous year's figure of 30.9%. The bank interpreted this as a step in the direction of decreasing inflationary pressures in the South American country."

http://www.vheadline.com/readnews.asp?id=87445

According to this information, the increase in the minimum wage is not the same as the inflation rate. The reported inflation is about 25 to 30 %, all the sources I saw report figures which are around this number. The increase in the minimum wage according to the article in venezuelanalysis was 20 % in 2008 and 25 % is forecasted for 2010 (in two different increases). If this source is right (and we should always be careful and wait for more information if somebody can provide it), then the inflation rate does exceed the minimum wage.

The articles I read in the newspapers and other places inform me the poor in Venezuela do see a high inflation rate which is not met with adequate increases in salaries and earnings. This is one reason why the crime rate increases, and why the Chavez party lost the majority in the last elections. The majority voted according to the economic benefit they perceive, and the economy is bad. When connected to the inflation rate, this leads to loss of popular support. It is simple.

[L Cutter]

10. That's why I hedged my bet

I'm going to concede to your data on the inflation vs. wages issue; that's why I hedged my bet with "wages and benefits". Just a bit of counter-spin. Nonetheless, benefits matter; ask anyone in the US with a drudge job that doesn't include health care benefits with his/her poverty level wage.

Obviously, you and I are on opposite ends of this issue. I don't mind dancing in the minefield, I just like to know where the minefield is. I have clearly stated my agenda, to wit: Anti-Imperialist, Bolavarian, with only a secondary interest in Chavez, and I speak, and spin, from that perspective. Your spin and permeating anti-Chavez propaganda is familiar to me because it's what I hear from the Empire and its support structure of corporate media and neocons and neoliberals and the assorted right-wingers in the USA. But, none of that makes any sense from a socialist, not even a Spanish one, and certainly not with such intense emotionalism. It would, however, make perfect sense from a Venezuelan expat living in Spain or Miami.

[bherrera]

13. I'm not Palestinian

I criticize Israel all the time, and I'm not Palestinian. I am not Muslim. I critize US imperialism, and I am not its victim.

Since Chavez is not a socialist, but a communist, I think he makes socialists look bad.

I don't know about the benefits people receive, but I do understand the majority voted against Chavez in the last election. Evidently they do not perceive the benefits to be high.

I suspect your designation of yourself as "Bolivarian" is interesting. What is Bolivarian?

[L Cutter]

16. Palestinians and strawmen

>I'm not Palestinian. I am not Muslim.<

Nothing you say make me believe that you are. However, after reading more of your posts, I was thinking that Cuban expat might have completed the sentence better.

>Since Chavez is not a socialist, but a communist, I think he makes socialists look bad.<

Continually calling Chavez a communist makes you look bad.

>I do understand the majority voted against Chavez in the last election.<

That's just spin. Chavez was not on the ballot.

>I suspect your designation of yourself as "Bolivarian" is interesting. What is Bolivarian?<

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=405&topic_id=42963&mesg_id=43288

[bherrera]

22. Chavez is a communist

He has made many statements which clearly mean he is a communist. Maybe you are not aware.

Bolivarian, I take, means "anti imperialist and for Latin American unity". Good luck. With that platform you will not win an election for the local council. Anti imperialist is not something the working class is worried about. And Latin American unity is not possible. Countries such as Brazil and Colombia will never unite with a country like Venezuela.

[L Cutter]

25. No he's not

>He has made many statements which clearly mean he is a communist. Maybe you are not aware.<

If you feel that I'm not aware, perhaps you could rectify that by giving me a quote or two too consider.

>Anti imperialist is not something the working class is worried about.<

Of course it's something the working class worries about. The elites get the kickbacks and the workers get screwed.

>And Latin American unity is not possible.<

Perhaps you had you eyes closed lately. But, the real question is, why are you so radically opposed to South American independence that it requires you to believe nonsense?

[naaman fletcher]

17. Re: bolivarianism

Do you have any evidence that Bolivar believed what you do?

[naaman fletcher]

14. boivarianism

"That's why there are revolutions and that's why the elites hate a good example like Bolivarianism. "

I am curious about what exactly that means. From what I understand, for example, Bolivar was a proponent of free trade, yet most "bolivarianists" here on DU are socialists who oppose free trade and are in favor of command and control economies.

So please, what exactly do you mean by bolivarianism?

[L Cutter]

15. the meaning

My use of the word "Bolivarianism" refers to the political movement staring with the "The Revolutionary Bolivarian Movement" founded in 1982 and incorporated in the Venezuelan constitution in 1999 - extensive in it's listing of the people's personal and political rights and ratified by a vast majority of the Venezuelan people. The fundamental tenentes are anti-imperialism, economic independence, participatory democracy, ownership of the nations natural resources and ownership or other means of control of vital infrastructure by all citizens of the nation.

I'm not a Simon Bolívar scholar. He's the namesake of the movement that I actively support (as he has been and is for other simular movements and resistance groups) because he's the Icon of anti-imperialism and South American unity in the region. Was he a proponent of "free trade"? Certainly not as the phrase is corrupted today. Bolivar fought against an Imperial Monarchy and the economic policies of that, from across the big water. He would not have been amused by "free trade" as the laissez-faire, neoliberal spearpoint of the new Corporate Empire from the north.

> "That's why there are revolutions and that's why the elites hate a good example like Bolivarianism. "<

What does that mean?

I struggled a bit with the meaning of your question so that I might answer it. I had to go back and find the context in which I had written those words, and, there it was. The answer to your question is there in the context from which you took the clip. I could only conclude then that my failure of communication was due to assuming that you knew what I meant by Bolivarianism. Now that I have touched broadly on that, if I still haven't answered you question, I might need a better question.

[naaman fletcher]

18. the meaning

"The Revolutionary Bolivarian Movement" founded in 1982"

Wasn't Bolivar alive long before then? If you are gong to use his name, can't you give him the common courtesy of referring to things he believed in, or at the very least things that people believed in while he was alive?

[L Cutter]

19. referring to things

I'm not the one using his name. I'm the one supporting a movement that uses his name. The "Revolutionary Bolivarian Movement(-200)" was the political and social movement founded by Chavez in 1982 or 1983.

[naaman fletcher]

20. Well sure,

When the tea-partiers invoke the name of Jefferson, I take no responsibility for what they actually say or do, but Jefferson's name is involved so I support it.

[L Cutter]

21. What's you point?

If that's how you chose what to support, that's on you. I defined the political movement that I support and the reasons why. Have you anything to say about that?

[bherrera]

23. Bolivarianism

Naaman, I suppose he means Bolivarianism is a movement with the focus on anti imperialism and Latin American unity. There is no description of an economic philosophy, nor of a political belief other than "let's unite and fight the imperialists". No word about legal reform, no word about improving the health system, no word about reducing crime, or paving the streets, or reducing inflation. No governance at all, other than a very naive dream which the people do not really care about. If they have an election using this for their propaganda, they will lose everywhere.

This is why Spanish socialists are a lot more successful, we are pragmatic, we believe in a market economy, and focus on individual freedom, releasing us from the bondage of the Catholic church, and worker's benefits.

[Name removed]

24. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

26. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[L Cutter]

27. bondage everywhere

LOL

Imperialism is the ultimate economic issue and most of what you bemoan as missing from the conversation is indeed there. Legal reform? Improving the health system? All there and available for expansion. A quick, agenda driven scan for a sentence or phrase to serve as a launch pad for a disingenuous deflection or personal attack might cause some to miss them, however.

If you really don't think human rights are relevant to the issue of Imperialism, just ignore those parts.


bherrera
>This is why Spanish socialists are a lot more successful, we are pragmatic, we believe in a market economy<

One can only imagine what would cause someone to believe that the "market economy" is any more realistic than communism. It's not. They are both fatally dependent on ignoring human nature.

That "releasing us from the bondage of the Catholic church" was a cute touch of irony after being so dismissive of those striving to "release themselves of the bondage" of the other Empire.

Obviously there's some mental bondage left over in Spain and some might see anything to the left of Franco Fascism as socialism, but it does look like most are getting over it:


ten-million strong turnout
Holding its first general strike since 2002, Spanish labor protested against its socialist government using the bank crisis (stemming from bad real estate loans and negative mortgage equity, not high labor costs) as an opportunity to change the laws to enable companies and government bodies to fire workers at will, and to scale back their pensions and public social spending in order to pay the banks more.


http://www.indymedia.ie/article/97812

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

28. Thankfully that douchebag was tombstoned. nt

[BolivarianHero]

3. Who's in power in Bolivia?

but no socilism iz bad

[bherrera]

5. Evo Morales and MAS are in power

But you will notice their policies are not the same as in Venezuela. They have a lot less corruption, their exchange rate controls are rational, and they are not nationalizing farming and industry in an erratic fashion.

Also, Bolivia's commodities enjoy good prices, while in Venezuela the oil prices are very very high, but are down from the peak of 2008. And in Venezuela, oil production is down, while their policies which are truly irrational subsidize gasoline consumption, which lead to excessive use of a fuel they could export. Finally, Venezuela has suffered from electricity shortages and this caused the closing of many industries. They say the crisis is over, but the industries remain producing very low amounts. The total impact of all these measures cause a very weak economy with record inflation and dropping GDP.

And this is why the opposition won the popular vote in the recent elections. Today, the opposition has a clear majority of the voting public, and Chavez lacks the endorsement of the very people he says he represents.

[Joe Chi Minh]

11. Good job they've got Ugo to look after them! A lot of Americans and Brits

would be glad to have him in power in their country.

[bherrera]

12. Ugo to look after them

Who is Ugo? if you mean Hugo Chavez, I am sure he could get 5 % of the vote in Great Britain or the USA. But in modern society, there are always fringe groups which vote for almost anything. The question is, can a declared communist win an election in any country? I don't think so.