"Soverign immunity" for Uribe ... Hil needs more time to decide

[rabs]

which indicates that uribito is a hot potato that Hil and company do not know how to handle.

In the meantime, uribito would be ill advised to step on U.S. soil to lecture at Georgetown or Harvard.

-----------------------------



Background:

Uribe has been subpoenaed to testify in a U.S. federal court in the Drummond human rights violations case.

The Colombian government's Foreign Ministry this past 12 Nov. requested the U.S. State Department grant "soverign immunity" to uribito, citing his status as a FORMER president.

Last month, on 10 Jan., Federal Judge John Bates ordered the State Department to rule on the diplomatic immunity question within 30 days.

The 30-day period expired Feb. 11. On that day, the State Department filed for a 30-day extension to make a decision, saying the Justice Department was "elaborating" a decision.

Spanish from El Tiempo

http://www.eltiempo.com/mundo/estados-unidos/ee-uu-aun-no-decide-si-apoya-o-no-a-uribe-en-caso-drummond_8858161-4

[Judi Lynn]

1. Any guess which way they'll go? I'll bet they do give him immunity. He's their sweetie.

Their own pocket Hitler. He served their interests, opened Colombia to even more exploitation, let the multinationals, etc. run right over everyone, let them access the services of the death squads to intimidate labor, etc., etc.

It's awful, but I'll bet they will protect him from having to testify in the interest of the truth, if it means the truth will bring justice. God forbid.

http://img.photobucket.com.nyud.net:8090/albums/v642/shakespeares_sister/clintonuribe2.jpg

http://img.youtube.com.nyud.net:8090/vi/jCvz8y_DUSY/0.jpg

[rabs]

2. It's a real quandry for Hil and the Department of Justice

If Hil does not grant "soverign immunity" to citizen uribito, said citizen uribito just might out of spite start squealing stuff that would embarrass the establishment in Washington.

Our friend Dreyfuss explained it this way to me:

-----------

A few years ago uribito testified under oath in Colombia in the Drummond case that he had never had any links to the paramilitaries.

But when uribito authorized the extradition of several paramilitary bosses to the United States, without knowing it he was handing the truth about the Drummond human rights violations to the U.S. Justice Department on a silver platter.

The logic is that the extradited paramilitaries have admitted to U.S. investigators their relations with uribe and his government officials, including in the Drummond case.

That is the fear uribe has if he testifies without "soverign immunity" because he could wind up being tried on two serious charges, perjury and complicity with a narco-terrorist group (the Drummond paramilitaries).

uribe and his very expensive lawyer, Gregory Craig, know perfectly well that if uribe testifies, his declarations could easily be turned against uribe and wind up with uribe as a defendant in the trial. In theory, if that happens, uribe could wind up behind bars.

----------------------

[Judi Lynn]

3. So even 'though it's totally unethical, it's inevitable, nearly. Crazy!

So then you get the U.S. Gov't involved in suppressing evidence, right? I guess there are some people who are going to always be above the law, as we've seen during Republican administrations already.

It's deeply interesting information you received from Dreyfus. His information is always excellent.

This is really convoluted, isn't it? Doesn't look as if the truth is ever going to see the light of day.

Thanks for the deeper insight. :hi:

[Peace Patriot]

4. Thank you, rabs!!! This is fascinating information!

And, hey, I thought only "the people" were "sovereign" in a democracy. I guess they don't call 'em "drug lords" for nothing. But then, what do we call Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld--war lords? "Sovereign immunity" for all kinda "lords" these days. Some "nobility," eh? The old kings of Europe and England were a lot more fun. Think of Elizabeth I. Or Charlemagne. Or Alexander the Great. Those were monarchs! Ours are worms, by comparison.

:rofl: :hide: :rofl:

[Peace Patriot]

6. Seriously, though, rabs, you think the ex-King of Colombia is going to get jailed here?

Or does Dreyfuss think that's a possibility?

...bearing in mind who runs the DOJ (Chiquita's death squad lawyer), the CIA (Daddy Bush pal), U.S. foreign policy in the western hemisphere (the guy who arranged the extraditions, over the objections of Colombian prosecutors, and who secretly arranged for Uribe's signature on a U.S./Colombia military agreement giving total diplomatic immunity to all U.S. military personnel and all U.S. military 'contractors' in Colombia), the U.S. State Department (arranger of martial law election in Honduras as the death squads did their thing against the Left) and the U.S. presidency (guy who said "we must look forward not backward" as to prosecuting people who are more powerful than he is).

"...without knowing it he was handing the truth about the Drummond human rights violations to the U.S. Justice Department on a silver platter."

A "silver platter" bearing the entrails of the poor in Colombia that I think will be dumped in the garbage pail, frankly. There may be some factions of "good guys" in the DOJ and the FBI, but they are way outnumbered and basically in hiding, it seems to me. I see almost no hope that this info from the death squad witnesses will see the light of day, or be used to prosecute Uribe, precisely because of Junior's involvement in this and other shit in Colombia. The whole purpose of the extraditions (overseen by the U.S. ambassador who is now Asst Sec for the Western Hemisphere) was to bury this information as deep as it could be buried--by getting these people out of the reach of Colombian prosecutors and by the complete sealing of these cases in U.S. federal court in Washington DC.

Is Dreyfuss saying that somebody's digging it up and will actually use it? This is not such lawyerly scuttlebutt? This is a real investigation?

Could be Hillary and Leon are pissed off at being blackmailed by Uribe. Could be he's just such an embarrassment, they will be forced to jettison him and are contemplating it. But everything we know, thus far, says otherwise. (And I haven't even mentioned the spying witnesses against Uribe that they got out of Colombia.) Could this info have been put in circulation just to keep Uribe's lip zipped?

How speculative is it?

[rabs]

8. uribito, dubya and Switzerland

Dreyfuss called this morning before I had seen your post. He said Colombian blogs, Facebook, etc. are citing Dubya's cancellation of a speaking appearance in Switzerland last week.

The comments say that the bush episode is not being lost on uribe, who could face similar charges if he travels to Europe -- or maybe even the United States. Were uribito to testify, it's possible that he, like dubya, would be putting a noose around his own neck. (dubya in his book openly admitted that he had authorized torture.)

The issue of the 30-day extension for a decision on "soverign immunity" for uribito is being seen in two lights; either the State Department is confused and unsure about what to do, or it is an ultimatum for uribito to heed the Birmingham's court's order to testify, which would let State off the hook on the immunity question.

But nothing at this stage is clear though, par for the course regarding U.S./uribito relations. Still, uribito has not shown up in the United States (Georgetown) for several months now, which could be an indication that he and his attorny Gregory Craig do not consider it a good idea at this time.

---------------------------

Here is the HuffingPost article on dubya. Sub Uribe for Bush, tweak the crimes and locations.

GENEVA, Feb 5 (Reuters) - Former U.S. President George W. Bush has cancelled a visit to Switzerland, where he was to address a Jewish charity gala, due to the risk of legal action against him for alleged torture, rights groups said on Saturday.

Bush was to be the keynote speaker at Keren Hayesod's annual dinner on Feb. 12 in Geneva. But pressure has been building on the Swiss government to arrest him and open a criminal investigation if he enters the Alpine country.

Criminal complaints against Bush alleging torture have been lodged in Geneva, court officials say.

Human rights groups said they had intended to submit a 2,500-page case against Bush in the Swiss city on Monday for alleged mistreatment of suspected militants at Guantanamo Bay, the U.S. naval base in Cuba where captives from Afghanistan, Iraq and other fronts in the so-called War on Terror were interned.

Leftist groups had also called for a protest on the day of his visit next Saturday, leading Keren Hayesod's organisers to announce that they were cancelling Bush's participation on security grounds -- not because of the criminal complaints.

But groups including the New York-based Human Rights Watch and International Federation of Human Rights (FIDH) said the cancellation was linked to growing moves to hold Bush accountable for torture, including waterboarding. He has admitted in his memoirs and television interviews to ordering use of the interrogation technique that simulates drowning.

"He's avoiding the handcuffs," Reed Brody, counsel for Human Rights Watch, told Reuters.

More (interesting article)

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/02/05/bush-switzerland-torture_n_819175.html

[Peace Patriot]

14. Thanks rabs! You are such an amazing source of information and analysis!

I tend to get too damn tidy in my theories. I forget how clueless, poorly informed, mixed up as to motives, confused, incompetent, etc., human beings can be, especially politicians and government officials in our very compromised government.

I had it all figured out that Junior's trip to Switzerland was about hiding the cocaine billions (and God knows what other revenue streams) cuz some new laws are about to go into effect in Switzerland about money laundering (requiring more disclosure by Swiss banks). I figured the 'speech' to the Jewish group was cover. And I figured the Swiss bankers got pissed at Junior, for some reason (possibly his intention of very large transfers of funds out of their banks, to safer locations) and that is why they unleashed the human rights warriors on him. (I don't have any illusions about Swiss bankers' commitment to human rights.)

This could be true, or partly true. But maybe it's not "messy" enough, as to how human beings often behave.

I didn't/don't think there is any real risk of Junior ever being put in handcuffs. For one thing, no foreign police are going to get anywhere near Junior. He is much too well protected by both private security and the Secret Service and the CIA and every goddamn arm and agency of U.S. military power. No government would dare risk a shootout with U.S. and Bush Cartel security or even a minor flap with them. That just isn't going to happen. Somebody can indict him. Nobody can arrest him (except maybe our own government, which ain't gonna happen).

I applaud every effort to corner these rat bastards, believe me. But I think the most that can be done about Junior (and a few other Bush Junta principles) is embarrassment, such as this incident re Switzerland.

Uribe may be another matter, however--depending on how "made" a man he is in the Bush Cartel. That's hard to judge. He acts like a "little Bush"--arrogant beyond belief. But he may be just a strutting 'little Latino'--a macabre comic figure--in their view, not all that protected, and easy to jettison, if the need arises. What we can safely guess, at this point, is that there is something very bad and very dirty, and possibly of war crimes status, in Bush Junta activity in Colombia. I've been picking bits out of the news for some time, trying to figure out what this is. I'm pretty sure it's U.S. military or U.S. military 'contractor' "turkey shoots" against Colombian civilians (training of assassins for Iraq and Afghanistan), but this may just be part of it. There are additional possibilities--cocaine trafficking, high tech spying, more than the usual corruption in military 'contracts' and plotting against Venezuela and Ecuador.

I think U.S. Amb. Brownfield's secret doings to get Uribe's signature on total diplomatic immunity for all U.S. military personnel and all U.S. 'contractors' in Colombia is very telling. (Why, after more than a decade in Colombia, did the U.S. military suddenly need this signature in 2009?) But, given that Junior is untouchable (and I believe he is), the risk of war crimes charges, re Colombia, would fall on people down the chain of command. This makes me think that the trillion dollar cocaine trade is more at issue, as far as Junior is concerned. I don't know how Bush Cartel revenues might be imperiled (except my guess at the above--the new Swiss banking laws) but I've always liked Deep Throat's advice, "follow the money." Disrepute for war crimes wouldn't phase Junior. Some peril to the Bush Cartel mega-fortune would be of more concern.

I figured the protection and coddling of Uribe was all about what he knows and might disclose under pressure. I think the protection and coddling is Leon Panetta's doing (Daddy Bush pal) but I doubt that Panetta has any job obligation to protect Uribe, if that becomes too risky to Junior. Frankly, I think they'll just snuff Uribe, if that happens (if Uribe gets indicted, after all their efforts to prevent it, and there is any risk to Junior in the indictment). But that will be more in the category of swatting flies, than in the more important category of money and its power and illicit trillions.

Again, I can't think what the danger might be to the illicit part of Bush's fortune. I don't think there is any power on earth capable of seizing it or even knowing where it is. I'm sure it gets quickly diversified, for one thing. For another, it's kind of like arresting Bush for war crimes. Who has that power? Who would dare? The man is never going to be accountable in any way, except further disrepute. But I am beginning to sense, in the Uribe thing, something lurking in the shadows to do with cocaine money. Maybe it's something that could rip the veil off corruption in the "war on drugs" at many levels of the U.S. government/military and political/corporate establishment, and off many people, such that many countries and justice departments could start going after the cocaine fortunes of numerous parties. That could be very "disruptive." And if it resulted in, say, legalization or a serious dent in U.S. "war on drugs" war profiteer booty, that could seriously cut into illicit revenue streams.

About being too tidy: Colombian rightwing death squads are, of course, closely tied to the cocaine trade. Controlling and directing the cocaine trade is one of the main purposes FOR the death squads. And another tie-in is Uribe's massive domestic spying (--the main Uribe crime that Colombian prosecutors were getting a handle on, when the CIA spirited the spying witnesses against Uribe away to Panama). What would a gangster like Uribe--once the go-to guy for the Medellin Cartel--use spying capabilities FOR? The same thing Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld would use it for--profit. We've seen bits and pieces that point to use of the spying to draw up "lists" of trade unionists for the death squads. But what if there is even more to it, than serving U.S. multinational interests by decapitating the union leadership in Colombia and terrorizing union members? What if it was used to consolidate and direct the cocaine trade? And what if the Bush Junta was aiding Uribe's spying (say with high tech U.S. military capabilities)?

It's pretty clear that this was the main Uribe motive in trying to exterminate the leftist FARC guerrillas--to gain control of their coca fields and cocaine trade. (It's pretty clear to me anyway.) So, put all this together and you have a government run as a criminal enterprise--with all the police, military, legal and spying powers of the government put to the purpose of consolidating and controlling a trillion dollar (at least) illicit market (in poisonous stuff funneled to the U.S.), funded by $7 BILLION in U.S. military aid. There it is! The "follow the money" motive for protecting Uribe! The $7 billion was an investment (of our money) by the Bush Cartel in the cocaine trade!

If Uribe were to be looking at jail time (as some 70 of his political cohorts in Colombia are--many already indicted or in jail), what might he have as bargaining chips, as the Bush Cartel subcontractor in Colombia?

The carnage--of trade unionists, peasant farmers and others--may not be as much of a danger to Uribe, Bush Jr and others, as the money trail. The scandal could bring about legalization (--already being discussed in Mexico, as to marijuana, with the coca leaf (not cocaine) now legalized in Bolivia, and many of the leftist governments looking quite askance at the U.S. "war on drugs"--and some of them banning the DEA, etc.). (--not to mention the legalization movement in California, and the bankruptcy of state and federal governments, as to housing all the prisoners and other huge costs of this utterly rancid policy). Legalization could make the U.S. government solvent again, but would mean billions in lost private profits, and trillions in the long term (--and the banksters losing liquidity). And a Bush Jr. scandal about it could be just the trigger needed to bring the entire corrupt edifice down.

Well, I've gone on much too long. I was just trying to expand my thinking about the subject of Uribe/Bush Jr. Is the Drummond case and other death squad cases (say, the one that Eric Holder fixed for Chiquita) a lead in to the cocaine trade, and is that the real worry of people like Daddy Bush, Leon Panetta, Eric Holder and Hillary Clinton? We're talking a very big, lucrative edifice that could come down, that our political/military/bankster establishment has many fingers in. I don't think murder troubles them at all. Look at all the murders the U.S. is currently committing and has committed over the last decade. Hundreds of thousands. And they just quite easily spin it. (Oh, oops, no WMDs!) Losing the cocaine revenue stream might be a much bigger deal to them.

[Bacchus39]

7. the article also says the current Colombian government asked the US to grant the sovereign immunity

noting that former US presidents could then be subject to the same. I am sure State department is aware of this. also, Uribe is not under investigation by the court so if there were a complicity with a terrorist group charge it would have to be under a separate prosecution. even a perjury case would be a separate prosecution.

[joshcryer]

12. I don't think that former US presidents should get immunity, though.

But I suspect immunity for presidents is probably here to stay.

[Bacchus39]

15. the thing here is Uribe isn't under investigation

former presidents do get prosecuted. this is simply testimony

[Peace Patriot]

5. Judi Lynn, I love you! nt

[Judi Lynn]

9. When I saw the wierd Uribe photo it looked exactly like Groucho Marx walking.

That's such an odd posture for a President, isn't it? First time I ever saw it, and was knocked out on the spot.

The photo of Groucho Marx is taken from his fabled rendition of the immortal song, "I Must Be Going":
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jCvz8y_DUSY

[Peace Patriot]

10. "Hail, Freedonia!"

The Marx Bros would have understood "sovereign immunity" in an instant, for what it is.

[naaman fletcher]

11. Yes

I have found the judging people by brief snap shots as they go about their lives is very telling. I am sure that if someone followed you around with a camera all day that nobody would be able to produce a shot where your step looks awkward. I find that judging people by such standards to be very progressive. Sort of like how you used to judge the appearance of women which thankfully you have stopped.

[joshcryer]

13. Yeah, tabloids love to do that.

There isn't one single actor or celebrity who doesn't have a crappy shot.

[Name removed]

16. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Bacchus39]

17. no big deal, they hate him because he was successful

and exceedingly popular. Colombia is on the path towards greater prosperity. I think some of their neighbors are threatened by a stable and prosperous Colombia.

[Wilms]

18. I think Colombia's relationship with the US is what's considered threatening.

[Bacchus39]

19. how so? and neither of those dudes in the photo are currently presidents

feel free to elaborate. Colombia has decided to focus on an alliance with the US without regard to which party is in power in the US rather than with a red beret wearing fat buffoon. I think its a good strategy for them.

[Wilms]

20. Ideology often transcends elections.

It's that way here on a raft of issues.

[rabs]

21. Photo is so on the spot now ...

Guy on the left has been indicted in the United States to testify about his knowledge and links to paramilitaries killers hired by Drummond to assassinate union leaders and workers.

The guy on the right a few days ago canceled a speaking engagement in Switzerland because he was facing possible arrest as a war criminal.

What a swell couple. :rofl:

[Bacchus39]

22. indicted?? you know what that means? apparently not n/t

s

[Judi Lynn]

23. Who would have been able to guess several years ago, when they were terrorizing the world?

Such an eloguent image, the two of them, captured for posterity, riding away in their "pick'em-up" but not likely going anywhere!

http://1.bp.blogspot.com.nyud.net:8090/_FxCl-zDjIOQ/SDJemMO04MI/AAAAAAAACcs/rUcWogkZkRI/s400/fake.jpg

They should have seen this coming, consulting the magic laptop!