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Bacchus39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-10-11 07:41 AM
Original message
Venezuela agrees to Honduras' return to OAS .
http://colombiareports.com/colombia-news/news/15493-venezuela-agrees-to-honduras-return-to-oas.html

Colombian President Juan Manuel Santos was able to convince his Venezuelan counterpart Hugo Chavez to stop his country's resistance to Honduras' return to the Organization of American States by inviting Honduran President Porfirio Lobo to a lunch in Cartagena.

At the end of the meeting with Chavez and Santos, Lobo told reporters he had promised Chavez to submit to conditions that had impeded the country from rejoining the OAS.

The Honduran president said he agreed to allow ousted former leftist President Zelaya to return to the country with immunity from prosecution. This is a condition of the readmission of Honduras to the OAS. Lobo assumed the presidency of Honduras in January 2010 after the coup that removed Zelaya who was president from 2006 to 2009.

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Zorro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-10-11 11:44 AM
Response to Original message
1. I believe immunity from prosecution had already been agreed upon
Edited on Sun Apr-10-11 11:44 AM by Zorro
I think Mel's objection to returning is that he also demands a personal protection guarantee -- government bodyguards or something similar.

What I really think is that he doesn't want to leave his cushy lifestyle in the Dominican Republic (all expenses paid courtesy of the Venezuelan government, I believe).
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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-10-11 05:26 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. Personally I don't think he should get immunity for what he did...
...but the fact that he has to ask for it proves that he knows what he did was illegal.
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Zorro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-10-11 07:59 PM
Response to Reply #3
6. No argument there
but it's a compromise to move beyond the past.

It's the same approach that so many clamor for regarding US relations with Cuba.
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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-10-11 05:26 PM
Response to Original message
2. Wow, fucking bombshell.
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Bacchus39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-11-11 03:43 PM
Response to Reply #2
13. looks like the meeting was in the works for several months
Edited on Mon Apr-11-11 03:45 PM by Bacchus39
5 months according to this article and Santos announced the visit by Lobo on Saturday before Hugo arrived.

http://eluniversal.com/2011/04/11/reunion-lobo-chavez-despierta-esperanzas-en-honduras.shtml

Las radioemisoras hondureñas anunciaron el sábado por sorpresa que Lobo había llegado a Cartagena para una reunión con Santos y Chávez, sin que anticipadamente se hubiera hablado de la posibilidad de ese encuentro, informó AFP.

Pero de acuerdo con fuentes diplomáticas citadas por medios locales, el inicio de las gestiones para ese encuentro data de hace cinco meses.

El encuentro con Lobo fue anunciado por Santos el mismo sábado, minutos antes de la llegada de Chávez a Cartagena.

Según dijo el presidente colombiano, "desde hace algún tiempo hemos venido haciendo una diplomacia discreta para normalizar la situación de Honduras en la OEA (Organización de Estados Americanos)".

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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-12-11 01:26 AM
Response to Reply #13
23. Nice pic.
Chavez looks like he sees potential there with Lobo.
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Bacchus39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-12-11 09:14 AM
Response to Reply #23
31. and really, what did Lobo have to do with Zelaya's removal?? nothing
he may be the worst Honduran president ever, not saying he is, but he had nothing to do with Zelaya or the interim government.
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naaman fletcher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-10-11 06:57 PM
Response to Original message
4. surprising..
we have heard recently that Chavez's fragile feelings can cause him to harm his own country, yet he was cool with this.
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Zorro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-10-11 07:56 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. Current events in Libya may have sobered him up
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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-11-11 01:19 AM
Response to Reply #4
7. Also surprising given that he was supposedly "ambushed" by Lobo and Santos.
The way I read it, they had an opportunity to sit down together and, sat down together.
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naaman fletcher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-11-11 03:50 AM
Response to Reply #7
8. me too,
but Chavez has very sensitive feelings according to his main supporter here, and one wouldn't want to take him by surprise lest he decide to shut down natural gas imports while he cries in the corner.
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-11-11 09:02 AM
Response to Original message
9. I think they cut a deal.
Chavez got Garcia and Zelaya, and Santos got Honduras back in the OAS.
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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-11-11 10:01 AM
Response to Original message
10. Here's an intelligent thought to counter the stupidity in this thread...
If it is true that the U.S. installed president of Honduras, Porfirio Lobo, agreed to the return of the elected and unconstitutionally expelled president of Honduras, Mel Zelaya, then it may have been a Walid Makled for Mel Zelaya swap.

Background:

In 2009-2010, the U.S., in collusion with its pet criminal, Alvaro Uribe, extradited a number of death squad witnesses to the U.S., on mere drug charges, and "buried" them in the U.S. federal prison system--out of the reach of Colombian prosecutors and over their objections--by complete sealing of their cases (an unusual procedure) in U.S. federal court in Washington DC. Colombian prosecutors needed these witnesses in on-going death squad investigations. The U.S. also (in my opinion) recently aided the flight of spying witnesses against Uribe out of Colombia with the chief spying witness getting instant asylum in the U.S. client state of Panama--also over the objections of Colombian prosecutors (who wanted to interrogate this witness in their spying case against U.S. pet criminal Uribe). (My guess: There is a coverup in progress re Uribe/Bush Junta crimes in Colombia.)

Lately, the U.S. wanted yet another accused criminal, Walid Makled (in custody in Colombia), to be extradited to the U.S. on mere drug charges. But Makled is additionally charged with murder in Venezuela, and Venezuela was first to ask for his extradition, ahead of the U.S. Santos was apparently summoned to the White House about Makled, but decided to extradite Makled to Venezuela, because (so he said) the charges against Makled there are more serious and Venezuela asked first.

Context: Santos badly needs restored trade with Venezuela, one of Colombia's chief trading partners, whom Uribe and the Bushwhacks had grievously alienated with a secretly negotiated U.S. military buildup, an attack on Ecuador and other hostilities. Extraditing Makled to Venezuela is one of those peace-making gestures that governments can do, for instance to restore diplomatic relations and trade after such a flap. Some interpret this as Santos taking an independent course from Washington, but I am not sure of that interpretation, and am more inclined to believe that Santos is (at least in part) carrying out a U.S.-designed plan. (The trade issue is real but there is more going on here than just that.)

Which brings me to Zelaya. Mel Zelaya was a good president. For instance, he raised the minimum wage for sweatshop workers at U.S. multinational sweatshop operations in Honduras, subsidized bus transportation for poor workers, provided a school lunch program for poor children, agreed with the labor unions that the Reagan-regime-written constitution needed reform, and generally identified with Honduras' massive poor population**, though he came from the rich upper class. And he was an ally of Chavez.

In June 2009, the Honduran military--funded and trained by the U.S. military--shot up Zelaya's house, terrifying his family, rousted him out of bed and took him away at gunpoint, put him on a plane with blackened windows--which stopped at the U.S. military base at Soto Cano, Honduras, for refueling--and dumped him on an airport tarmac in Costa Rica.* Far rightwing operatives, in alliance with the likes of John McCain and Jim DeMint, then took over the government in a junta. The U.S. government (Obama/Clinton), acting all innocent, at first condemned this coup, but kept funding it (secretly) and eventually arranged a martial law election to "legitimize" the coup, even while anti-coup protestors, trade unionists, teachers, human rights workers, journalists and others were being imprisoned, beaten raped, tortured and murdered.

No honest election monitoring group on earth would touch this phony, martial law election. All refused. So Clinton brought in groups like McCain's (U.S. taxpayer funded) "International Republican Institute" to "monitor" the election. The anti-coup forces in the country boycotted the election. Half the voters didn't vote. Two U.S. friendly, rightwing candidates contended for the privilege of being a U.S. client. Lobo "won."

The OAS condemned this coup and has refused to recognize its U.S.-rigged election. Brazil--which was very active in trying to reverse the coup and get Zelaya restored to his rightful office--and many other Latin American countries, cut off diplomatic relations with Honduras. The U.S. arm-twisted, bullied and bribed four countries (Colombia and Panama among them) to "recognize" the illegitimate coup regime, but the ban and the boycott have otherwise continued to this day.

Honduras' oligarchy (the country is basically run by ten rich families and various U.S. entities including the Pentagon) now wants back into the "south-south" trade that Chavez has done so much to foster in Latin America (and that Brazil and others joined him in fostering). Thus, we have Santos--who, in my opinion, is CIA vetted and approved (and who has, among his assignments, covering up Uribe/Bush Junta crimes in Colombia--the reason for the above extraditions and asylums)--working on behalf of the U.S. to influence Chavez to "recognize" the Lobo government.

Rabs reported that Makled was interrogated eight times by various U.S. officials in Colombia, and that Hillary Clinton said, of the interrogations, "We got what we wanted." Whatever that was, it apparently made not getting Makled an easy "sacrifice" in order to get something else: Lobo "recognized," if Zelaya is permitted to return unmolested. There is continuing rightwing death squad activity in Honduras, so Zelaya's security will be an issue. (It is not safe being a leftist in that country. There have been hundreds of killings--similar to Colombia--aimed at terrorizing and decapitating the leftist leadership of the country--the bloodsoaked ground of U.S. "free trade for the rich.")

One other note: After the interrogations by U.S. officials (including the DEA, the FBI and lawyers from the U.S. Embassy), Makled issued some statements accusing Chavez administration officials of drug trafficking. I imagine that that may be what Clinton "wanted" and "got," but there are other possibilities, including information about crimes by the Bush Junta in Colombia that need covering up.

I don't know if this "Colombia Reports" account is true--that a deal has been made for Zelaya's return. They are generally reliable. If it's true, this is my guess: Venezuela gets to try Makled, on the murder and other charges against him, in exchange for recognition of Lobo's government on condition of Zelaya's return.

-----------------------

*(One of the ironies of the coup against Zelaya is that the couptsters broke a very specific provision of the Honduran constitution forbidding the exile of any Honduran citizen, then--under a Washington PR's firm's tutelage--concocted false charges against Zeyala that he had violated the constitution--in proposing the trade union-backed constitutional reform by a vote of the people. Typical Bushwhack propaganda: whatever crimes you are committing, project them onto others and trumpet it through the compliant corporate media. Zelaya did nothing illegal. He proposed a yes/no vote on the question: Do you want a constitutional assembly to reform the constitution? The vote would have had no force of law. It was an advisory vote only, to the legislature. For this, he was kidnapped and taken out of the country at gunpoint. Obviously, decent wages and other help to the poor didn't sit well with Honduras' oligarchy and military and their U.S. corporate/war profiteer masters.)

**(One of the Honduran coup generals said that their coup was intended "to prevent communism from Venezuela reaching the United States." (--quoted in a report on the coup by the Zelaya government-in-exile). "Communism" (in this general's mind) = decent wages, school lunches, siding with the poor majority, reform, etc. Note: Chavez is not a "communist," but he does believe in being fair to the poor majority.)



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Bacchus39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-11-11 11:04 AM
Response to Reply #10
11. nope, just more of your speculation and not particularly intelligent
maintaining the trade with Venezuela and the benefit Colombia derives from that is more important than having Honduras back in the OAS from Colombia's perspective. therefore, that is where the Makled issue makes sense.

Lobo and the OAS is a side issue. maybe Santos just brought him there for fun to embarrass Hugo knowing that Colombia has info on Chavez that would be much more embarrassing.
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rabs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-11-11 03:23 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. Article is misleading and shallow


You:

"I don't know if this "Colombia Reports" account is true--that a deal has been made for Zelaya's return. They are generally reliable. If it's true, this is my guess: Venezuela gets to try Makled, on the murder and other charges against him, in exchange for recognition of Lobo's government on condition of Zelaya's return."

------------------------------

Me:

The article is misleading, especially the headline that is not backed up anywhere in the article.

Note also that there are no Venezuelan or Colombian sources quoted and article only reports on what lobito may have said, no quotes, and a flat-out error, that Zelaya sought exile in Brazil (it was the Brazilian EMBASSY after his clandestine return to Honduras).

The truth is that Lobo showed up by surprise, Chavez was civil to the man, and the three-man summit became a FOUR-MAN summit.

Zelaya spoke at length BY TELEPHONE with lobito, Santos and Chavez during the three hours lobito was there. I suspect it was Chavez's idea to call Zelaya, who was in Caracas at the time, not in the DR. If so, Chavez evened the playing field at two: Chavez and Zelaya vs. Santos and lobito.

The outcome of all this was that Santos and Chavez agreed for representatives of their respective foreign ministries to work on an agreement that would allow Zelaya to return to Honduras with all charges dropped (and assume his safety guaranteed).

That accord would then be the base for Honduras' return to the OAS, but if there are stumbling blocks, then no dice for Honduras.

It is not as simple as that though, because UNASUR and Caribbean countries will have a big say too at the next OAS meeting early next month. Venezuela alone cannot determine what the OAS will decide.

What was also not reported is that Lobo asked Chavez about restoring price-reduced oil shipments to Honduras. Chavez was non-committal on that for the moment.

---------------

Re Makled: Semana reports he was "visited" EIGHT times by DEA agents, THREE times by FBI agents, and TWICE by embassy legal types. Semana also quotes Hillary as saying about the interrogations: "Eso es lo importante para nosotros". (That is the important (thing) for us).

-----------------
Semana also has this in reference to Santos' meeting with obama last week.

Obama: "A strong democracy that respects human rights has bloomed."



Starting at 1 o'clock

False positives
Forced displacements
Impunity
Illegal wiretaps
Assassination of labor leader
Crimes by agents of the state




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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-11-11 08:30 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. Article doesn't say Hondurus to return to OAS, it says Venezuela agrees to return to OAS.
I'm not sure what's so controversial other than the fact the US puppet is getting immunity.
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rabs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-11-11 08:53 PM
Response to Reply #14
16. Enlighten us


on why Venezuela "agrees to return to OAS," as you claim.

When did Venezuela LEAVE the OAS?



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Bacchus39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-11-11 09:35 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. tell us more about the phone converstation with Zelaya during that meeting
I want to hear about that.
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rabs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-11-11 10:06 PM
Response to Reply #17
20. You can find it if you go search for it in the Bogota and Caracas media. n/t


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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-12-11 07:31 AM
Response to Reply #20
25. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-12-11 01:19 AM
Response to Reply #16
21. Huh? It was a shortened sentence to fit in the subject line.
"Article doesn't say that Hondurus was to return to OAS, it says Venezuela agrees to Hondurus's return to OAS."
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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-11-11 08:31 PM
Response to Reply #10
15. The US loved Zelaya and was the first to denounce the ouster.
I am in agreement with the US that ousting Zelaya was wrong. He should've been taken to jail for what he did. There's a reason he's demanding immunity, he knows what he did was illegal. Simple.
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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-11-11 09:52 PM
Response to Reply #15
18. What did Zeyala do that was illegal?
Second question: What is it legal to do TO Zelaya, if he did something allegedly illegal?

The factual answers to these questions are:

1. Zelaya proposed an ADVISORY VOTE OF THE PEOPLE on the simple question: "Do you want to vote on holding a constituent assembly to discuss/rewrite the constitution?" What's illegal about voting? What's illegal about the people advising the legislature that they want something?

2. The coup leaders, on the other hand, clearly violated the constitution by shooting up Zelaya's house, kidnapping him and removing him from the country at gunpoint. Exiling a Honduran citizen is SPECIFICALLY forbidden by the Honduran Constitution, and most countries' legal systems frown on kidnapping. To do this to the ELECTED president of the country is TREASON. They then compounded that set of crimes with beatings, imprisonment, rape, torture and murder of hundreds of peaceful anti-coup protestors and dissidents. They are the ones who belong in jail.

So what are your answers:

1. What did Zeyala do that was illegal?

2. What is it legal to do TO Zelaya, if he did something allegedly illegal?
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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-12-11 01:23 AM
Response to Reply #18
22. What do you think Zelaya is asking for immunity for?
It is illegal to ask for a constitutional rewrite because the constitution allows for referendum and has undergone changes for years and years. Zelaya specifically touched the one part of the constitution that was untouchable. You'll note that all of Zelaya's "supposed" changes (what he claims he wanted to change) were actually accepted under the constitution as it stands now.

I agree that Zelaya should not have been deported or exiled.

He should've been summarily jailed.
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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-12-11 08:20 AM
Response to Reply #22
26. "Summarily jailed"? That's the rightwing solution to alleged illegality?
That's the only part of your comment that makes no sense. The rightwing solution is to use bully force and violence to get rid of inconvenient people, including ELECTED presidents.

What the rightwing opposition SHOULD HAVE DONE, if they felt that the president had done something illegal, was to BRING CHARGES against him? But THEIR charges--written by a "Beltway" PR firm--couldn't stand the light of day. Thus, they kidnapped Zelaya and removed him from the country--in PLAIN VIOLATION of the Honduran Constitution.

You have no clue about what the Honduran Constitution permits or prohibits. Zelaya did NOT violate the Constitution by proposing an ADVISORY vote of the people on WHETHER OR NOT THEY WANTED TO VOTE ON forming a constituent assembly. And, IF the Honduran constitution did forbid that--which it doesn't--that would simply be one more argument that this Reagan-henchmen-written constitution (which Oscar Arias described as "the worst constitution in the world") is in desperate need of reform. SINCE WHEN is it unconstitutional, illegal or forbidden for the PEOPLE OF A COUNTRY TO VOTE ON SOMETHING?

It was A LIE! They COULD NOT AFFORD to expose their lie in a LEGAL proceeding. So they forced him out of the country at gunpoint and took over the government and declared martial law and started beating, raping, torturing and murdering leftists.

You betray your rightwing 'sensibilities' with your phrase "summarily jailed." This is typical of the rightwing in Latin America, with "summary execution" quickly following upon "summary arrest and imprisonment" throughout the region during the U.S.-supported rightwing juntas in Chile, Argentina, Brazil, Uruguay, Peru, Paraguay, Honduras, El Salvador, Nicaragua, Guatemala and other countries, continuing to this day with U.S. funded/trained militaries and closely tied rightwing paramilitary death squads in Colombia and now in Honduras.

The far rightwing coupsters in Honduras have no more respect for the law than the Bush Junta did here.
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Bacchus39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-12-11 08:30 AM
Response to Reply #22
27. agreed, he ignored a Supreme Court and Congressional order
the only thing they really did wrong is fly him out of the country.
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Zorro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-12-11 08:36 AM
Response to Reply #27
29. Hey, what does the Honduran Supreme Court know about the Honduran constitution anyway?
DU's horde of Honduran constitution legal scholars unequivocally and uncategorically state he did nothing illegal.

So there.
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Bacchus39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-12-11 09:12 AM
Response to Reply #29
30. well, I may be incorrect but I do believe they are the authority to rule on Honduran constitutional
issues. this I assume includes activities of the president. however, it seems the 1st DU Court of Crybabies maintains that the president is free to act as he pleases regardless of what the Honduran courts or Congress says.

I have always maintained that those who believe it was the court, congress, and military who acted illegally, they are free to sue in Honduran court.
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Bacchus39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-12-11 08:30 AM
Response to Reply #22
28. dupe n/t
Edited on Tue Apr-12-11 08:31 AM by Bacchus39
s
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-11-11 10:01 PM
Response to Reply #10
19. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
naaman fletcher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-12-11 01:35 AM
Response to Original message
24. I wonder why
such an important story is not being discussed by those interested in discussion and sharing information.
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