Ecuador's challenge: dislodging Colombian rebels

[Zorro]

Source: AP

Puerto Nuevo, population 1,700, has no church, no police, no immigration post and no elected officials. Flanked by dense rainforest on the southern bank of the muddy San Miguel River, it's a town of transients. And of the Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia.

For two decades, the rebel group has used settlements just across the border in Ecuador for logistics, staging and recreation — with tacit approval from Ecuadorean governments. Now, just as the refuge becomes more vital than ever to the badly battered rebels, Ecuador's new leftist government says it is determined to send them packing.

The policy shift became evident after March 1, when Colombian warplanes wiped out a FARC camp just this side of the border. The bombing raid killed FARC's foreign minister, Raul Reyes, and 24 others, and prompted Ecuador to break diplomatic relations with Colombia.

It was an embarrassing indication of just how little control Ecuador had over its territory.

Read more: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080830/ap_on_re_la_am_ca/ecuador_and_the_rebels_1

[Peace Patriot]

1. Did the Associated Pukes see the "warplanes"? How do they know whose "warplanes"

they were?

Always look for the "AP" ("ap") hidden in the url. And then question every word, every fact, every quote, every unattributed opinion (hidden--disguised as commonly understood fact--or attributed to "anon," i.e., "his critics say..."), every assumption, every impression, what isn't said (black holes of missing information), and every spun headline and lede twisting, twisting in the wind......

AP is the most unreliable 'news' source on the face of the earth.

[bemildred]

2. Someone tell these idiots at AP that nobody is listening to their propaganda anymore.nt

[bitchkitty]

3. Tell Zorro while you're at it. n/t

[Zorro]

5. You know

Remaining resolutely ignorant of reports you don't politically agree with is a Republican trait.

[ronnie624]

6. Even one as undiscerning as you

should be able to tell by the content and patterns of her posts that bitchkitty is not "resolutely ignorant". I have no doubt that she has read the posted article. In fact, noting the AP's penchant for disseminating corporatist propaganda displays the opposite of ignorance.

[Zorro]

7. Care to rebut anything reported in the article?

Please enlighten the audience as to what part you challenge.

To dismiss it completely as propaganda without pointing out specific elements that are untrue does not add any value to the debate.

[bitchkitty]

9. Smells like Associated Propaganda bullshit

Ecuador's new leftist government says...

Ecuadorean officials say...

Some "former" FARC soldier who asks not to be identified says...

And of course, the magical laptop reveals...

I'm sure you can understand my misgivings.

[Zorro]

10. So specifically what do you dispute in the article?

Sounds as if all you've got is it "smells" like "propaganda".

If that's all you got, then you've got nothing.

BTW, former FARC soldiers don't want to be identified, since FARC's policy is to murder former FARC soldiers.

But you probably think that's propaganda, too.

[bitchkitty]

11. Zorro, it really doesn't matter what it says, does it?

The article is not well-sourced. It's not sourced at all, in fact! And the fact that it comes from AP? I would feel the same way about a link from the Drudge Report.

Not all media are lies - but this story doesn't pass the sniff test.

Maybe if there were more than ONE "former FARC soldier" coming forward? And if his family is truly in danger, why isn't he getting help for them from your guys?

The article stinks, Zorro. Sorry I can't say anything nicer than that. Well, maybe I'll try, let's see...

They spelled Colombia right!

And yes - I do consider nearly all the crap that our media spew, propaganda.

[Zorro]

12. You apparently missed these recent articles

Does FARC kill former FARC soldiers?

<snip>

Lina grips her face with her hands and lets out a groan of pain. Her uncle is standing over her, his hands forming the shape of a pistol and pointing down at an imaginary body on the floor. 'They had him on the ground, like this,' he says. 'They fired two shots into his head from here.'

'They humiliated him before killing him?' wails Lina, tears running down her face. Her body is bent double at the news of her brother's death. Gunned down aged 27 in her home town of Florencia, southern Colombia, he was murdered, she believes, by her former 'boss' - her commandant in the ruthless guerrilla army, Farc.

Lina was a member of Farc - the Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia - for seven years. Last December, exhausted and demoralised, she deserted, handing herself in to the army. Farc does not take such betrayal lightly. A terrible revenge has been exacted upon her family...

<snip>

More at: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/aug/24/farc.colombia?gusrc=rss&feed=politics


Is there a FARC problem in Ecuador?

<snip>

...Even so, the Ecuadorean border zone is largely unpoliced and continues to serve as a haven for Colombia's "irregular" fighters. Ecuadorean patrols have destroyed more than 100 clandestine bases on their territory this year, compared with the 47 camps destroyed in all of 2007, Defense Minister Javier Ponce said.

Partly to put to rest its suspicion that Colombia acted with direct U.S. assistance in the March 1 raid, Ecuador also has asked to see videos from aircraft that flew in the operation, which killed Raul Reyes, the second-ranking leader of the Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia, or FARC...

<snip>

More at http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-ecuador29-2008aug29,0,2760707.story

[Zorro]

13. Here's one you'll probably label as propaganda

<snip>

A leading rancher accused President Hugo Chávez on Monday of turning a blind eye to Colombian rebels who have found safe haven across the border inside Venezuela.

The lack of security for ranchers along the border and elsewhere is hurting output of beef and other agricultural products, said Genaro Mendez, leader of the National Cattle Ranchers Federation. He also said land invasions by squatters have been a problem, and that ranchers have counted 196 kidnappings so far this year.

Mendez said that rebels of the Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia, or FARC, remain in border areas because ''there is apathy'' on the part of the government and the military.

<snip>

More at: http://www.miamiherald.com/news/americas/venezuela/story/658447.html

[bemildred]

14. OK, just a little ...

I have no interest in arguing with you about it, but this is the sort of thing that annoys me:

"Documents found in Reyes' laptop detailed close ties between the rebels and several prominent Ecuadorean leftists. They also indicate President Rafael Correa's 2006 campaign received $100,000 from the FARC.

Correa calls the documents bogus. But shortly after they were made public, he replaced most of the armed forces high command and stepped up military operations along the 400-mile border with Colombia."

What is the "But" for? There is no apparent connection between the allegations of corruption and the taking of steps to better defend ones border after an attack across that border. But one is insinuated on no evidence whatever, with the "But". This is typical of propaganda, which attempts to give the surface appearance of reason while aiming much lower in the hierarchy of intellect. One is supposed to absorb the idea that the border defense measures somehow support the documents on the laptop, but there is no explanation of how that is so.

Notice also the lack of specificity: "several prominent Ecuadorean leftists". Is there some reason we cannot be told their names? What were the nature of the "close connections"? This is subterfuge, nebulous allegations cannot be refuted.

"with tacit approval from Ecuadorean governments" -- One has to first ask on what basis they infer "tacit approval" instead of "unspoken indifference" or something like that. In any case, it is an OPINION, not a fact, and we ought to be told whose opinion it is, or was. In any case, it applies to twenty years of Ecuadorian governments, including all the non-"leftist" and corrupt ones that preceded Mr Correa's, so what is new is the concern to do something about it, and he ought to get credit for that, and his predecessors should be blamed.

It does not even hang together as exposition, it is a stream of unsupported allegations, disguised slurs, and opinions presented as fact, patched together with sloppy grammar and barely understood rhetorical tricks.

[Zorro]

15. OK. I understand your point

However I think it's stretching things.

It's an obvious fact that FARC has camps within Ecuador's borders. FARC is allowed to do so because they pay off/threaten local officials to leave them alone, and there's a profit to be made to "accommodate" them; it's no secret that there's a high degree of corruption throughout South American institutions -- it's not an exclusively Colombian trait. And this Ecuadorean "accommodation" was dramatically revealed when the Reyes camp was bombed and the laptops were grabbed.

Correa ran and was elected on a platform to eliminate institutional corruption (which frankly is a challenging task); the Colombian strike forced Correa to do something public to counter the accusations that his government was not interested in removing FARC camps from Ecuador, and implicitly was not doing anything to eliminate the corruption he ran against. So he replaced his military leadership and has increased military presence along the border.

So yes, I would say there was a correlation between recovering the laptops (or more appropriately, the Colombian incursion) and Correa's actions shortly afterward.

Regarding the lack of specificity regarding "several prominent Ecuadorean leftists". This has been openly reported months ago, and includes Maria Calle (a prominent member of the Ecuadorean assembly, who also heads Venezuela's TV network Telesur in Ecuador) and Interior Minister Gustavo Larrea, who admitted meeting with Reyes a couple of months before the attack. The nature of their "close connections" have also been widely reported.

So I would assert that, despite your disinclination to accept what's reported in the article, it is an accurate representation of the situation along the border and not "propaganda". YMMV.

[bemildred]

16. Response:

It's an obvious fact that FARC has camps within Ecuador's borders. FARC is allowed to do so because they pay off/threaten local officials to leave them alone, and there's a profit to be made to "accommodate" them; it's no secret that there's a high degree of corruption throughout South American institutions -- it's not an exclusively Colombian trait. And this Ecuadorean "accommodation" was dramatically revealed when the Reyes camp was bombed and the laptops were grabbed.

Maybe nobody really gave a shit before? Why make up complicated explanations when a simple one would do? Maybe the local officials didn't want to get killed, and knew that no useful help was to be had from Quito?

Correa ran and was elected on a platform to eliminate institutional corruption (which frankly is a challenging task); the Colombian strike forced Correa to do something public to counter the accusations that his government was not interested in removing FARC camps from Ecuador, and implicitly was not doing anything to eliminate the corruption he ran against. So he replaced his military leadership and has increased military presence along the border.\

I don't see any connection between FARC camps on the border and the corruption he ran against. FARC camps on the border is a matter of not defending one's national borders, the absence of central control and sovereignty, which is a completely different matter from internal corruption and arbitrary rule, and as admitted long predates Mr Correa's accession to power. He removed the military leaders for incompetence and negligence of duty, and replaced them to address proper defense of the realm.

So yes, I would say there was a correlation between recovering the laptops (or more appropriately, the Colombian incursion) and Correa's actions shortly afterward.

Why not just admit that the military steps were a response to the cross-border attack? What would happen to the US government if a Mexican Drug operation attacked Tucson and nothing was done about it? The laptop has nothing to do with it.

Regarding the lack of specificity regarding "several prominent Ecuadorean leftists". This has been openly reported months ago, and includes Maria Calle (a prominent member of the Ecuadorean assembly, who also heads Venezuela's TV network Telesur in Ecuador) and Interior Minister Gustavo Larrea, who admitted meeting with Reyes a couple of months before the attack. The nature of their "close connections" have also been widely reported.

Proper reporting ought to give readers the necessary information, and the sources for it, and not expect them to know it already. Enough to exercise their own critical judgement, if they choose to do so. You appear to be defending your view of the matter, I am just pointing out why I think that the story is propaganda.

[Zorro]

17. Not a complicated explanation

Corruption is endemic in South America, whether it's the military or government. FARC greased the palms of people in both entities to allow them sanctuary within Ecuador's boundaries. And it's hardly a situation where "nobody really gave a shit"; Colombia gave a shit and complained about it, but Ecuador preferred to do nothing until forced to react after Reyes' camp got bombed.

And yes, there is a direct link between government corruption and inaction against FARC. The laptop plays into this picture, because it contained information that implied Correa's lack of attention could be attributed to the FARC money his campaign allegedly received. Ecuadoreans saw that correlation, which forced Correa to take remedial action. He's got a new Constitution coming up soon, after all.

And so I provided the necessary information on the "several prominent Ecuadorean leftists", which surprises me that you were unaware of, since I know you do pay attention to Latin American affairs. But I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, instead of thinking that you're being disingenuous. Whether that specificity was lacking or not, it still doesn't alter the veracity of the news article.

[bemildred]

18. Response:

Corruption is endemic in South America, whether it's the military or government. FARC greased the palms of people in both entities to allow them sanctuary within Ecuador's boundaries. And it's hardly a situation where "nobody really gave a shit"; Colombia gave a shit and complained about it, but Ecuador preferred to do nothing until forced to react after Reyes' camp got bombed.

"Ecuador preferred to do nothing" == Nobody gave a shit? Right? Corruption is, in my observation, endemic everywhere. It is the lack of it that deserves notice. I don't mean to forgive anyone here, but it's not something Latin Americans invented, or are even the primary exponents of, or that Ecuadorians are particularly adept at relative to politicians elsewhere. US politics is as corrupt as anywhere in the World above the level of Zimbabwe, and nobody seems to feel it necessary to bring that up to explain US attempts to bolster border security with Mexico, for example.

And yes, there is a direct link between government corruption and inaction against FARC. The laptop plays into this picture, because it contained information that implied Correa's lack of attention could be attributed to the FARC money his campaign allegedly received. Ecuadoreans saw that correlation, which forced Correa to take remedial action. He's got a new Constitution coming up soon, after all.

So how do you account for the "lack of attention" by Correa's predecessors? Were they corrupted by FARC too? Or was there some other form of corruption that caused them to not give a shit? I'm not so much defending Correa against the stuff on the FARC computer, although it seems unconvincing as it stands to me; but I am saying why introduce an elaborate explanation when a simple one will do? If his predecessors managed to not give a shit without FARC bribery, why should he not do the same? And if his predecessors also took FARC money, why suddenly notice that for him?

Why not just assume the cross-border attack, which was a NEW factor, caused the attempts to tighten up border security, as one would expect, and as I pointed out?

And so I provided the necessary information on the "several prominent Ecuadorean leftists", which surprises me that you were unaware of, since I know you do pay attention to Latin American affairs. But I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, instead of thinking that you're being disingenuous. Whether that specificity was lacking or not, it still doesn't alter the veracity of the news article.

I used to, but I have not lately, for several years. Too much yelling and too little content. Nobody in Latin America requires my efforts to defend them from the incompetents in the Bush administration. I was pointing out that the article does not provide the necessary information, not that you didn't, or that I was actually much interested in who the parties mentioned were. FARC is a Colombian problem, and the result of the Colombian government's historical failures, and it's relevance to Ecuador seems peripheral to me, not central, a border issue, you might say. I do think it is a good thing that Ecuador has decide to try to keep Colombian problems in Colombia.

[ronnie624]

20. "Corruption is endemic in South America"

Such a statement is a thinly veiled expression of racist contempt. This individual has made similar statements in the past.

As if our own government isn't corrupt and rotten to its very core. Corruption is apparently a phenomenon found only among the 'lesser' nations, such as those in Latin America.

This person became tedious and boring to me long ago.

[bemildred]

21. All countries that are enemies of or disobedient to the USA are "corrupt".

That is one of the standard slurs. The "dictatorship" alleged against countries that have frequent elections which are observed to be free and fair is another. Generally, if they are disobedient to the USA and big business, then they are "dictators"; unless they are Western European, then it's OK.

[Zorro]

22. So tell us about your extensive Latin American experiences

And I'm not talking about your visits to Taco Bell.

Yes, corruption is endemic to a degree that would not be tolerated in the US, despite your idiotic assertion that the US government is just as corrupt.

When people annually register their cars In Ecuador, it’s not uncommon to discover there are outstanding “tickets” that must also be paid before they are allowed to register. These “tickets” are totally fictitious, and are used to supplement the salary of the clerk and the rest of the office. And there is no appeal to higher authorities, because they are also participants in the scheme. This type of petty corruption is common; why this is common would require you to take a class in Latin American History 101, once you graduate from high school.

On a larger scale, international arrivals to Ecuador used to be charged a “tax” before they were allowed to retrieve their bags and enter the country; this “tax” could be as much as several hundred dollars, but could be negotiated down to about a tenth of that. Again, it was totally bogus, and only served to line the pockets of the customs officials. It was one of the complaints filed by the US ambassador that led to Abdala Bucaram’s ultimate removal from office; Bucaram was the president who had installed his teenage son as customs director, and gave him a swinging bash once he made his first million dollars in office.

My observations and comments are based on real-life experiences in-country, so they’re based on reality. Unlike your snotty bleats, which apparently are based on reading revolutionary comic books.

[ronnie624]

23. In typical fashion,

you have posted no links to support your claims. Your rejoinder consists of nothing but appeals to authority and dull-witted, flailing attempts at insult. As usual, there is nothing of substance in your message.

[Zorro]

25. Ha ha

You so funny. I describe personal experiences, and you dismiss them because I post no internet links.

Another typically brilliant display of your intellectual prowess, Brainiac.

[rayofreason]

26. You want links?

Here are a few

http://realtravel.com/quito-journals-j4937833.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_Perceptions_Index
http://www.tripadvisor.com/ShowTopic-g297538-i4907-k28434-Living_in_Manta-Manta.html
http://www.travelsinparadise.com/ecuador/ecuador_intro_2.html
http://www.travel-mediainfo.com/Ecuador/130993.htm

Since you were not willing to take Zorro's word on it.

I have never been to Ecuador. Sounds like a nice place, just be prepared to grease the palm of customs, police, etc. I've done that in Mexico and Russia.

Funny. I have never had to do it here in the US, though I saw it happen once 20 years ago. I was in a car driven by a friend and we got pulled over for "weaving" (11:00 am). The "fine" was $30. No ticket. It was in Chicago.

[ronnie624]

27. Your links do not support Zorro's claim

that Latin American governments are more prone to corruption than the U.S. government. The United States is a global hegemon, thus does the corruption of its government result in massive military invasions, plundered economies, widespread poverty and the deaths of millions of people.

Perhaps it's all just a matter of perspective.

[bemildred]

29. Corruption in the US is not about getting a drivers license, it's much bigger stuff than that.

Only in poor countries does corruption descend to penny ante stuff. The entire Pentagon, with half-a-trillion a year in on-the-record budget, is a corrupt protection racket, and has been for 50 years or more now.

[rayofreason]

30. I was responding...

...specifically to the claims of everyday corruption in Ecuador. There seems to be plenty of evidence for that.

Of course, you shift the discussion to larger issues, so let's take a look at that. Since there is a clear absence of day to day corruption in the U.S. - you don't have to pay off the DMV guy to get your picture taken for the driver's license - you claim lots of other things with a broad Anti-American brush.

massive military invasions - I assume that you refer to Iraq2 and not Overlord. Or were you against that massive military invasion as well? I find that often if you scratch deep enough with some people you find a sympathy among them for any opponent of the U.S. By the way, were you also against Iraq1? You know, the massive military invasion conducted with the support of the UN, the participation of the French among others, that stopped the rape of Kuwait. And how about Afghanistan and the ousting of the Taliban? The Inchon landing? So of the five massive invasions I have mention (actually 4 - Afghanistan was not so massive) which would you say were due to corruption?

plundered economies - The last 60 years have produced the greatest accumulation of wealth and expansion of prosperity for ordinary people in the history of humankind. Funny thing. The societies that prospered the most were within the U.S. hegemony after WW2. Neat trick that. Plunder their economy AND make then rich at the same time and they will never notice. Yep, and the countries in the world that were not under the great hegemon did SOOOO well. Places like the DPRK and, well, any other state that constituted itself on the Marxist-Leninist model. Smart. Keep that consumerism in check. Who knew being dirt poor could be so chic...speaking of which, on to your next "point"

widespread poverty - Ah yes, the normal condition of mankind throughout history. Agrarian societies with 30-40% youth death rates (<15yrs) have been the norm in DEVELOPED areas of the globe for millenia. That changed with industrialism, and the change has accelerated rapidly. Again, the past 60 years has seen the greatest reduction of poverty in the shortest amount of time ever. Any evidence that the reduction in poverty would have been much faster without the U.S.? Just look at the Koreas for an answer. Same culture, people, different hegemons. Which outcome do you prefer? For yourself, that is, as opposed to other people.

deaths of millions of people - Where to even begin. Hard to begin since your post is so fact-light. Needless to say, the reduction in global poverty, and the introduction of new crops and farming methods (strongly supported by the US) have had a huge impact. As just one example, it is fair to say that Norman Borlaug, the father of the green revolution, is responsible for saving a billion people. But I suspect you have never heard his name before today. Doesn't fit the narrative. Neither does a tripling of AIDS funding for Africa.

All you have in your post a broad smear, when historical evidence over the past 60 years points exactly in the opposite direction.

So maybe it is not just a matter of perspective, but rather a matter of sloppy thinking, historical ignorance, and unreasoned prejudice.

[ronnie624]

31. What you were responding to is irrelevant.

Zorro said: "Corruption is endemic in South America, whether it's the military or government." The rest of your stumbling "America first" historical revisionism is completely off topic, so I'll refrain from responding.

See you around, "rayofreason".

[rayofreason]

32. Weak.

As to be expected.

Looking back at the original discussion I see you wrote (post 23)

In typical fashion, you have posted no links to support your claims. Your rejoinder consists of nothing but appeals to authority and dull-witted, flailing attempts at insult. As usual, there is nothing of substance in your message.

What a hoot. In the same post you castigate the poster for posting no links, then say that the poster only "appeals to authority." Not knowing anything about what things are really like in Ecuador, it didn't take me long to find that corruption is a big issue, just like in the rest of Latin America. So in fact, Zorro's statement that Corruption is endemic in South America, whether it's the military or government. is just that - a statement of fact as any frequent traveller or specialist in the region can tell you. I speak fluent spanish, I have travelled extensively, and in every Latin American country I have travelled I have directly encountered the phenomenon of day to day corruption that would not be tolerated here. You have any personal experience in Latin America you want to refer to?

And regarding your vague comment about "historical revisionism" please don't refrain from pointing it out or naming some other hero like Norman Borlaug, who, with the help and encouragement of the US government and others, saved a billion people. But I suggest you do you homework since I do not suffer fools gladly.

[ronnie624]

33. You can speak Spanish (presumably)

and you've traveled to Latin America (again, presumably), therefore you know with certainty that Latin Americans are more prone to corruption than the people of the United States.

How foolish indeed to challenge such a powerful argument.

[rayofreason]

35. You can use Google (presumably)

So you could easily find evidence as to the veracity of the statement that corruption is endemic to Latin America on a scale that North Americans would never condone. Instead you deny the veracity of this statement, arguing from a position of ignorance and prejudice with silly disparaging remarks about the experiences of others, all the while presenting no evidence in your favor. But then if you were to inform yourself of the reality your ludicrous position would crumble. How pathetic, and what a sad commentary on the state of education in this country.

Go ahead. Find some source that presents evidence that corruption is NOT endemic to Latin America on a scale that North Americans would never condone. Good luck with that.

[ronnie624]

37. I'll get right on it. Lol. n/t

[Zorro]

34. Welcome to the club, rayofreason

You will discover (if you haven't already) there's quite a contingent of ill-informed pro-Castro, pro-FARC, pro-Chavez loudmouths that feel compelled to lecture anyone that challenges their consistently ignorant claims.

You might want to check out the Latin American threads on occasion, where they tend to congregate and where Bacchus likewise demonstrates his low tolerance of fools.

[rayofreason]

36. Indeed...

I have read a number of his posts. Very reasonable. But not too fashionable. Ignorance is much more stylish.

[ronnie624]

28. Deleted.

[ronnie624]

19. No, I don't care to rebut it.

I'll leave that to others with more time and greater typing and rhetorical skills.

The article is obviously a steaming pile of dung.

[bitchkitty]

8. LOL - you should know!

I've seen how carefully you digest the links that members like Peace Patriot and Judi Lynn post. I've seen your thoughtful replies!

Jeez, Zorr, you're a real card, you know it?

[AlphaCentauri]

4. I though the Colombian government did say helicopters not warplanes

[fascisthunter]

24. "Some People Say".... oh they say lot's of things... oy