Was Alex Haig right? (About Succession)

[mr715]

Alexander Haig stated that "He was in control - at the White House".

Ronald Reagan was in surgery and George H.W. Bush was on a plane. Is the Secretary of State (in the White House) the chief executive ex officio?

I know the order of succession with the Speaker of the House and the President pro tempor succeeding first, but in the actual White House, at the time of an assassination attempt with the VP out of commission, the Speaker is not the effective chair of the cabinet.

CNN said that Alex Haig was incorrect, but I think in context he was actually right. The Secretary of State chairs the cabinet in the President's absence, doesn't s/he?

On an tangential note, why is the Department of State the most prestigious cabinet official. Is it just seniority or autonomy or some other processional factors?



TO CLARIFY: I know the Speaker is higher in succession, but I am asking hypothetically, would the speaker really chair the cabinet in practice

[ChicagoSuz219]

1. I remember a line from "Dallas"...

Bobby was whining to his Dad that J.R. was taking back the company, even tho' Dad had given him (Bobby) the power to run it.

Dad replied: "Son, no one can give you power. You want real power... you've got to take it!"

Haig must've seen the same episode... ;-)

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

2. No, he was quite incorrect -- in charge means who has military authority

He was not commander in chief. No aspect of the presidential incapacity stuff put him in charge. And other than military chain-of-command who cares who is "in charge" on a moment by moment basis.

Whn Reagan was shot people's minds went to "Who is controling our nukes?" (The only scenario of concern was a Russian first strike to capitalize on our disarray.)


It wasn't such a big deal... more a gaffe than anything. But the fact he had been a general made it unsettling at the time. It appeared to many around the world that we had exerienced a military coup.

[mr715]

5. Please clarify

What about him being a general? If he is a cabinet secretary, doesn't he need to surrender all former ranks?

During a period when the President is incapacitated, who is commander-in-chief? Would it in this case go to the Speaker of the House?

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

7. He was not a general at the time.

But he was associated with the military which made it look bad... our allies and enemies get nervous when general-anybody announces he's in charge. If Russia thought there was a coup by former military leaders they might have over-reacted, which was a good reason not to pop off.

A president on an airplane is not incapacitated. Bush was acting president under the constitution during Reagan's incapacity as surely as Reagan was President when he flew somewhere.

[win_in_06]

65. Retired Officers retain their rank for life,

and after Haig's fast rising military career it was easy for some to become uncomfortable when he jumped behind the podium and declared himself "in control".

BTW, it is likely that NSA James Jones is referred to as "General", by many of his fellow cabinet members and maybe even the Prez. It is a common courtesy to do so.

[DURHAM D]

3. No - absolutely not.

Haig's problem was that he referenced the Constitution as his source and he apparently had not read it or he just forgot about Tip and Strom.

[Canuckistanian]

4. No. next in line was definitely the Speaker of the House.

In case an executive decision needed to be made, Haig would have had to consult with the Speaker.

But for mundane everyday decisions, I don't think there would have been a problem with Haig in charge of the WH.

[mr715]

6. He said "[...] in the White House"

I'm assuming the Speaker was either en route or under guard.

So in the hours that Bush was on a plane, ultimate executive authority was with the Speaker.

[DURHAM D]

8. Irrelevant - the President never relinquished control to Bush.

Don't confuse "death" succession with incapacitated or out of pocket succession.

[mr715]

10. What about incapacitation

Reagan still has full executive power while he was under the knife?

[Hippo_Tron]

17. Yes he did

The 25th amendment has to be invoked before authority can be transferred as long as the President has a pulse. Only if he is actually dead does the authority automatically transfer to the Vice President.

[mr715]

27. From the Constitution (not A25)

Clause 6: Vacancy and disability
In Case of the Removal of the President from Office, or of his Death, Resignation, or Inability to discharge the Powers and Duties of the said Office, the Same shall devolve on the Vice President, and the Congress may by Law provide for the Case of Removal, Death, Resignation or Inability, both of the President and Vice President, declaring what Officer shall then act as President, and such Officer shall act accordingly, until the Disability be removed, or a President shall be elected

[Canuckistanian]

13. I guess.

I doubt whether the situation lasted more than a few hours, but the question is really academic.

Haig's fault was that he made an incorrect announcement to the world that HE was in charge of the WHOLE executive branch. A LOT of people at the time thought a "coup" was being orchestrated or at least an improper use of power.

It was, as I recall, a major deal.

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

9. No. planes had radios, even in the 1980s.

Bush was always acting president. Simply not being in Washington doesn't make a president non-president.

[Hippo_Tron]

15. No he wasn't, because the 25th amendment was never invoked

The Vice President can't assume the responsibilities of acting President unless the 25th amendment is invoked. Reagan's staff didn't want to invoke the 25th amendment because they didn't want to send the message that he was incapacitated. Now informally people may turn to the Vice President as the person "in charge" of making decisions that don't require statutory authority if the President becomes incapacitated. But it would be more logical for that person to be the Chief of Staff.

[mr715]

19. It wouldn't be the chief of staff.

The powers of the chief of staff are derived from the increased POLITICAL office of the President. The chief of staff is like a high powered personal confidant, lawyer, and secretary. And all those powers were taken from the Department of State. The Sec. of State's original formulation includes most of the duties of the Chief of Staff, and I imagine in an assassination or incapacitation, those powers would go with their traditional source.

[Hippo_Tron]

20. The bottom line is that formally nobody is in charge

If the President is incapacitated and the 25th amendment isn't invoked then really the highest officials have to make decisions in his absence within their statutory authority. It is possible that informally the administration turned to Haig as the guy who was informally in charge. Or it is possible that they could turn to the Chief of Staff. Or possibly they could all make decisions by consensus among the highest ranking officials. Or, and hopefully this wasn't the case, they could all try to exploit the opportunity for a power grab and act in a completely uncoordinated manner.

Formally, there is nothing that makes the Secretary of State in charge of anything. Informally it is possible that a strong Secretary of State could assume that role if the administration is willing to fall in line behind him.

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

23. You are right

I was 90% right but you're 100% right. Nobody was in charge anywhere.

HOWEVER...

If the USSR had lobbed a first strike at us (the only scenario where this stuff measured in hours, not days, really meant anything at all) and VP Bush had ordered a retaliatory strike his order would probably have been followed.

And hopefully nobody else's would have.

Under the circumstances.

[Hippo_Tron]

41. Actually in the case of the nukes, it would get very murky

Because the President and the Secretary of Defense together make up the National Command Authority and thus only together can they authorize a nuclear strike.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Command_Authority

I would imagine that in such a situation the Secretary of Defense might be the one to claim that they have the authority to launch a retaliatory strike.

[mr715]

26. Article 2 section 2 clause 6

If the president is incapacitated the VP takes over as ACTING president.

The 25th amendment only clarifies what happens after that - if the Prez is out, the VP becomes the President, not the acting President.


(source, sadly, wikipedia)

Clause 6: Vacancy and disability
In Case of the Removal of the President from Office, or of his Death, Resignation, or Inability to discharge the Powers and Duties of the said Office, the Same shall devolve on the Vice President, and the Congress may by Law provide for the Case of Removal, Death, Resignation or Inability, both of the President and Vice President, declaring what Officer shall then act as President, and such Officer shall act accordingly, until the Disability be removed, or a President shall be elected

[Hippo_Tron]

40. The 25th amendment supercedes Article II, Section 1, Clause 6

At least according to that same source...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twenty-fifth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution

[DURHAM D]

28. You don't seem to realize that I was making the same point.

Or is it your habit to disagree when you actually agree?

[mr715]

29. deleted

[Hippo_Tron]

39. I wasn't replying to you

[Canuckistanian]

18. That's true

Haig's statement made everyone assume that the POTUS and VP were incommunicado.

That was ANOTHER fault on his part.

[The_Commonist]

11. I think he was right...

He just shouldn't have said it out loud.

[DURHAM D]

12. no - he was wrong

[naaman fletcher]

21. I think he was right, too

The President has been shot, and there is chaos. Somebody in that building needs to coordinate things, meetings, intelligence briefings (what are the Soviets up to?). In the building, somebody needs to be in charge. Haig was the senior politician in the building, and was the right man for the job. If you read the quote he said that it was until the VP showed up, and he said he would run everything by the VP.

What he said came off bad, but I still don't see what the big deal was.

[onenote]

53. it doesn't matter that the VP or Speaker or President pro tem weren't "in the White House"

the Secretary of State doesn't get to take charge of the WH just because the folks specified in the Constitution (and the Presidential succession act) aren't on the premises.

[Hippo_Tron]

14. No he wasn't and neither was the Vice President

Unless the President is dead, the 25th amendment must be invoked before authority is transferred to somebody else. If the 25th amendment isn't invoked, the President can be in a coma and still be in charge. At that point nobody is in a position to give any presidential level orders. Officials can do things that they are entitled to do without presidential authorization but beyond that nobody can do anything.

I guess he could have meant that he was "in charge" in the sense that he was the guy in charge of coordinating everything in the White House and make sure everybody is working together to come up with the best options to present to the President when he got out of surgery. But logically that job would fall to the Chief of Staff.

[mr715]

16. Not the Chief of Staff

The Chief of Staff is the COO of the office of the President. The Secretary of State is the senior executive officer of the government. In terms of running the government, it'd be the SoS as an appointed and confirmed government employee. The Chief of Staff is only cabinet level in relatively recent times.

What if the President is in a coma? Who raps the gavel at cabinet meetings?

And didn't this happen with Wilson? His wife took over (effectively), right?

[onenote]

54. if the president is in a coma, there are no cabinet meetings until a successor

calls one. And Haig wasn't that successor.

[RaleighNCDUer]

22. You know, I never though he really meant anything more than -

"Don't panic, there's still a government, I have the Rolodex.", because, in essence, government is communication. If everybody is alive and well, but nobody knows where anyone is and they can't communicate, there is no government. I think he was just saying, "the WH is still funtioning, and everybody is able to run things through the WH while waiting for the VP to show up."

You gotta remember, in that crowd Haig was FAR from the most reactionary figure.

He never claimed 'succession'. He just said 'things are under control'.

[DURHAM D]

33. I was watching that press conference live when Haig

took over. I remember being very shocked at his ignorance and his bullying. I immediately called my partner who teaches constitutional law and said you have got to turn on the tv - Al Haig just declared himself in charge. The whole law school went to the well to watch tv replays of Haig's statement. It was a big deal.

Haig in charge was very, very frightening because he was considered paranoid and an extremist.

[suston96]

24. Once more with feeling......

There is the constitutional line of succession, which Alexander Haig, the Secretary of State, was NOT speaking about.

And there is the Executive Branch Chain of Command, which found Haig, the Secretary of State, in the White House in charge because The President and Vice President were not, as they say nowadays, in the house. The White House.

Haig had a discussion later and made the mistake of referring directly to the Constitution to explain his position. He was indeed in charge but not because the Constitution said so. Rather, laws were passed creating a chain of command for the cabinet officials.

Cabinet officials are also in the line of succession to the Presidency if the President and Vice President and the House Speaker and the Pres Pro Temp of the senate were all uh, incapable of moving up per the Constitution - Don't ask.

[mr715]

25. I'm assuming the order of succession is the same as procession

If so, would the Sec. of Vet Affairs be senior to the Sec of Homeland Security?

Theres more to it than just seniority, or no?

[DURHAM D]

35. Sorry but he was speaking about the Constitutional succession.

I quote:

"Constitutionally, gentlemen, you have the President, the Vice President and the Secretary of State in that order..."

See first word of quote.

On edit: Note his sexism as well. Helen was no doubt in the front row.

[Hippo_Tron]

42. There is no executive branch "chain of command"

The Secretary of State has no more authority to run the executive branch in the absence of the President and Vice President than the Press Secretary does.

[mr715]

43. Not True

The Press Secretary works for the President (the Executive Office of the President) while any Cabinet secretary works for the government and answers to Congress.

The Secretary of State is a member of the National Security Council and is closer to the President in both line of succession (due to seniority) and also the order of precedence.

When the Secretaries of Defense and State appear together, the office of State is the higher office (ex officio).

The Secretary of State was also one our "great offices" of state - keeper of the executive seal, personally responsible for the delivery of appointments, notification of congress, and yes - chair of meetings in the President's absence.

The Press Secretary has no executive authority and is not in the cabinet. Other cabinet secretaries have equal share of executive power, however the Department of State seems to occupy a more vaulted position.

[Hippo_Tron]

44. There is no executive branch "chain of command"

Nobody has any legal authority to do anything except for the President or the acting President as prescribed by the 25th amendment. Haig was not in charge and neither was Bush and therefore legally nobody was in charge and nobody was legally in a position to give orders. Hopefully everybody was coordinating their efforts and not trying to grab power but there's no guarantee of that.

The Secretary of State's "seniority" is ceremonial and nothing more.

[mr715]

46. I need hierarchy

Major vice of mine. I can't handle stuff that doesn't fit in a nice ladder like shape.

You refer to Sec. of State's seniority as ceremonial and a concede the point - the sec. of state is the cabinet secretary overseeing foreign affairs and affairs of government documents, appointments, and elections.

I just see ceremonial authority as manifesting as ACTUAL authority in times when hard power is undefined.

Haig might not have had the ability to fire the Sec. of the Treasury for the 20 minutes he was in the White House, but he did sit at the head of the table and did set the agenda. I think my bigger question is was it him or the Speaker. I don't really understand the 25th amendment. It seems like if the President is out cold, power is passed immediately down the line. How am I reading it wrong?



MR

[Hippo_Tron]

49. The executive branch doesn't function like the military

There's no second in command, third in command, etc. There's the President and that's it. When the President is incapacitated authority is supposed to be transferred to the next person in the line of succession because otherwise nobody is in charge. What they should have done is convened the cabinet and voted to declare the President incapacitated and transferred authority to the Vice President (who was reachable by radio).

If Haig had said that the cabinet has declared the President incapacitated and transferred authority to the Vice President and the Vice President as acting President has asked me to coordinate things until his arrival, then that would've been alright.

But the way things were there was no President there was no chain of command and nobody was in charge. Fortunately everybody seemed to work together and nobody was trying to exploit the situation for a power grab.

[suston96]

66. Sorry, don't agree....

There has to be someone immediately in charge. Ever hear of the designated survivor during occasions - State of the Union Address - who is in a secure location in case something dreadful happens?

http://congress.blogs.foxnews.com/2010/01/26/designated-survivor/

http://blog.taragana.com/politics/2010/01/27/clinton-misses-speech-but-hud-secretary-is-cabinet-member-in-an-undisclosed-location-15585/

[Hippo_Tron]

67. Yes and as I have said repeatedly, everybody in front of the designated survivor must be DEAD

The President can literally be in a coma and so long as he has a pulse, he is still the President unless the 25th amendment is invoked. If the President is legally dead then the Vice President automatically becomes President without invoking the 25th amendment.

In the case of Reagan's shooting, the 25th amendment was never invoked. He was literally under general anesthesia and he was STILL the President.

In the case of the designated successor, presumably everybody that is in the capitol building will be dead because somebody blew up the building. Therefore the designated successor can become President without the 25th amendment being invoked.

[mr715]

47. Dupe

[mr715]

48. Dupe

[onenote]

55. sorry, but unless you can cite to something creating this executive branch chain of command

you are just making stuff up

[mr715]

60. US Office of Protocol

Processional Order, Succession, and even seating.

We're talking about a very soft distinction, but the Department of State has a prestige that even other "big four" cabinet ranks lack. There is obviously little statutory difference between the authority of the Attorney General over the whole executive branch as compared to the Sec. of State. But its there. Kissinger didn't gain any new powers going from NSA to State, but it still was a promotion.

And its also by necessity. The Sec. of State is the voice of the country in the absence of the President. I mean that in philosophical terms, as plenipotentiary diplomat. Why couldnt the Sec of State speak for the executive department within the country? And if the office CAN, doesnt that imply a level of seniority not shared by other cabinet officers?

[onenote]

62. order of processional or seating hardly confers power

need something more than that.

Are you saying that someone other than Haig was in charge until he got to the WH? If not, why wasn't the Speaker or the President pro tem in charge?

[suston96]

45. Haig was in charge until the return of the Vice President.

That is what he has asserted after the fact, many, many times. Haig also said: everyone in that room knew what I was talking about.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Cabinet

Line of succession

The Cabinet is also important in the presidential line of succession, which determines an order in which Cabinet officers succeed to the office of the president following the death or resignation of the president. At the top of the order of succession are the Vice President, Speaker of the House and President pro tempore of the Senate, and Secretary of State. Because of this, it is common practice not to have the entire Cabinet in one location, even for ceremonial occasions like the State of the Union Address, where at least one Cabinet member does not attend. This person is the designated survivor, and he or she is held at a secure, undisclosed location, ready to take over if the President, Vice President, Speaker of the House, President pro tempore of the Senate, Secretary of State and the rest of the Cabinet are killed.

[onenote]

56. what about the speaker and the president pro tem?

Sorry, but you don't have to be physically present in the white house to be "in charge" of the executive branch.

Haig was wrong. Plain and simple.

[suston96]

68. What about the speaker and the President Pro Temp?

They are not in the Executive Branch. We are talking about the temporary administration of the Executive Branch and NOT succession to the presidency.

Separation of powers! The Legislative cannot run the Executive and so on.

"Article XXX. In the government of this commonwealth, the legislative department shall never exercise the executive and judicial powers, or either of them: the executive shall never exercise the legislative and judicial powers, or either of them: the judicial shall never exercise the legislative and executive powers, or either of them: to the end it may be a government of laws and not of men."

I know, that's the Massachusetts Constitution, written by John Adams and ratified in 1780. But it gives you an idea of the separation of powers intended by the Founders.

[onenote]

69. we're talking about who runs the executive branch and under the constitution

there is a clear order of succession: President; VP; Speaker; Pres Pro Tem. Secy of State etc.

There is nothing in the Constitution or the statutes enacted for presidential succession that provides for some sort of ad hoc ascension to the position of "head of the executive branch" that skips over the speaker or the president pro tem.

[depakid]

30. Reframe the question:

Had something "scary" occurred, whose orders would the relevant authorities have followed?

Would it have been Haig's?

[mr715]

32. I think thats fair.

The President was unconscious. The VP was not in the White House (and/or unable to communicate).

The Speaker and President pro tempore both are in Congress.

The Sec. of State is the effective chairman of the cabinet and the senior member of the executive department.


ALSO, wouldnt a speaker need to resign from Congress to become acting President?

[depakid]

36. Not making a judgment as to whether it's fair or not

just speculating on what may or may not have occurred had some "scary event" like Haig envisioned actually come to pass.

Ah, how I miss cold war paranoia and mutually assure destruction....

Some context: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G2H1E02iMHg

[mr715]

37. I meant your characterization of my question was fair. nt

[depakid]

38. How about those beauty mushroom clouds? Nice effects for the early 80's, eh?

[onenote]

57. again -- there is no requirement that the head of the government be "in the white house"

If Bush's unavailability rendered him unable to carry out the duties of Acting President then the Speaker (and then the President Pro Tem) were next in line. They didn't have to be "at the white house" to exercise executive branch authority.

The secretary of state's office isn't "in the White House" -- its at the Department of State. Under your logic, if the Secretary of Education got to the White House before Haig, then the Secretary of Education would've been "in charge" of the Executive Branch until someone higher up the list got there (and so on)

[depakid]

59. " if the Secretary of Education got to the White House"

:hide:

[harkadog]

31. He was the highest ranking member of the Executive Branch

at the White House. He said "I am in control here at the White House". So he was correct. No one at the WH at the time out ranked him.

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

50. There is no "rank" in the way you're thinking

Say the president is out of town. Can the Vice President cancel all the president's appointments for next week? No. That the chief of staff's business, not the VP's.

(Historically most VPs were kept as far away from the workings of the WH as possible.)

There is no rank in the non-military executive branch. All the different departments answer to the president. The secretary of transportation has no authority over the assistant secretary of agriculture, despite being a higher office.

The WH chief of staff was the one "in control here at the WH." And the implicit question involved was reacting to a national security emergency if one arose and the Sec State has absolutely no military authority. None. The Sec State cannot even order the lowliest private to get her a cup of coffee.

Haig wasn't acting president and was entirely outside the military chain of command so he was not in control of anything. (Except the state dept)

[mr715]

51. I'm not sure of that

The Chief of Staff would not be in control of the white house in any other capacity than administrative matters.

The Sec of Transportation cannot boss around the undersecretary of ag, but in practice the Sec of Transportation IS more powerful, more senior, and sits closer to the Prez.

The Secretary of State is not in the direct military command, but hey, Hillary Clinton outranks Gen. Petraeus in both principle and practice. Recent news, when Clinton's transport broke down the general offered up his jet. It became Clinton's jet (proximately) because she is senior to the general. I assume a similar idea applies in cabinet meetings.

The Sec. of State is also on the national security council, which imparts a certain degree of gravitas to the position. The NSA and Chief of Staff serve the executive office.

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

52. Well, I am sure of it so we are at an impasse

[onenote]

58. and you are correct

this whole idea that it matters who was present at the white house is just silly. It suggests that someone else (or no one) was in charge until Haig got there.

[mr715]

61. From CNN

(CNN) - Luckily Secretary of State Hillary Clinton has friends in high places.

Clinton's plane broke down in Jeddah, Saudi Arabia where the nation's top diplomat held a town-hall meeting at a local college.

Fortunately, Gen. David Petraeus was nearby, having met with Saudi King Abdullah in Riyadh Monday.

Petraeus and his entourage agreed to pick Clinton up on their way home, but there is a small hitch. Because Clinton is a higher-ranking government official than Petraeus, the plane technically becomes hers when she steps foot on board.

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

63. Again... There is no "rank" in the way you're thinking

The existence of protocol rank has nothing to do do with whether there is such a thing as rank as you are thinking of it.

The word "rank" has many meanings. In the military rank connotes authority. In the billboard hot 100 rank connotes sales. In protocol rank determines seating arrangements.

Could Hillary Clinton have given Petreus any orders? At all? Of any kind?

"I am in control here at the WH"

Notice the word CONTROL. A person with no power cannot be in control of anything

You are wildly confusing protocol, chain of command and line of succession. They are three separate concepts.

Several knowledgeable and polite people have pointed out the error(s) to you and you just ignore it.

Whatever.

[wisteria]

34. No. n/t

[Ter]

64. Apparently, Reagan trusted Haig far more than Poppy Bush

Who can blame him for that one. However, had Reagan died that day in 1981, Bush becomes President, no matter how much Haig tries to fight it.